- 2 days ago
OAP Millicent Conway is indicted with the charge of arson. Williams Mervyn and Simon star. Look out for an appearance by future Professional Lewis Collins!
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00:00:00Last July, Millicent Conway appeared before the Fulchester Magistrates Court
00:00:28on a charge of arson. She pleaded not guilty. The case is now being heard before the Crown Court.
00:00:34The prosecution have alleged that the accused was seen at the scene of the fire,
00:00:38both just before and just after it was lit, and that in the interval, she deliberately lit it.
00:00:46I call Norma Marilyn Bates.
00:00:50Norma Marilyn Bates, please.
00:00:58What is your religion?
00:01:05Church of England.
00:01:06Take the Bible in your right hand and read aloud the words on this card.
00:01:10I swear by Almighty God that the evidence I shall give
00:01:12shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
00:01:18What is your full name, please?
00:01:20Norma Marilyn Bates.
00:01:22Your occupation, Miss Bates?
00:01:24Saleslady. She's department in Rutherfords.
00:01:26Where were you on the evening of the 17th of July of this year?
00:01:31I was out near the old house, what they call Tipskill Manor.
00:01:34I was on my cycle, but the chain came off.
00:01:37I stopped and saw the old lady.
00:01:40What time was this?
00:01:42Five to seven.
00:01:43Do you recognise in court the person that you saw?
00:01:46It was her, the prisoner.
00:01:48She was standing there.
00:01:50Where exactly was she standing?
00:01:52Well, she was off the road.
00:01:54She was in all that rough light near the house.
00:01:57How near to the house?
00:01:59About, about from you to me.
00:02:02What was she doing?
00:02:03Nothing.
00:02:04Nothing?
00:02:06She was standing looking at the house.
00:02:08Was there anyone else in the vicinity?
00:02:11Pardon?
00:02:11Did you see anyone else near the house?
00:02:16I didn't see nobody.
00:02:17There wasn't nobody else there.
00:02:18She was all alone.
00:02:20And on the road?
00:02:22There wasn't nobody.
00:02:23The road was completely deserted?
00:02:26There was just me on the road with me cycle,
00:02:29and her by the house.
00:02:31Did you stop and speak to the accused?
00:02:33I wondered about it.
00:02:35Such an old lady all alone out there.
00:02:37But it had made me late, the chain coming off me cycle.
00:02:40She turned and looked at me,
00:02:42and I did wonder if I hoped to stop.
00:02:45But she didn't seem to need no help.
00:02:46She just turned away again and looked at the house.
00:02:49So you carried on, pushing your bicycle?
00:02:51Yes, sir.
00:02:52Was the road still deserted?
00:02:54There wasn't a soul to be seen.
00:02:56Thank you, Miss Pates.
00:02:59You said that the accused was standing in all the rough light near the house.
00:03:03I imagine it was garden light once upon a time,
00:03:07but they'd let it go.
00:03:09Can you describe how she was standing?
00:03:12Pardon?
00:03:13Well, did she, for example, have a walking stick?
00:03:15She had two sticks.
00:03:16How was she holding these two sticks?
00:03:18She had one in each hand.
00:03:20She was standing up straight, holding two sticks?
00:03:23No.
00:03:23She was leaning on them, bent forwards like.
00:03:26She was standing still, bent forward,
00:03:29supporting herself on two sticks.
00:03:30Other than the sticks, was she carrying anything?
00:03:35Well, she couldn't really, could she?
00:03:36She didn't have no hand free.
00:03:38She had no sort of handbag or hold-all?
00:03:41Nothing.
00:03:42Was there any baggage or anything visible on the ground near her?
00:03:45Nothing I could see.
00:03:49You didn't leave the road?
00:03:51I was getting late, see.
00:03:53I had to get on.
00:03:54Now, Miss Pates, the garden, or what was the garden of the house,
00:03:58is heavily overgrown.
00:03:59A proper jungle.
00:04:01Trees, thick bushes, dense undergrowth.
00:04:04Yes, sir.
00:04:05So there could, in fact, have been any number of people near the house
00:04:08whom you would not have been able to see?
00:04:09There wasn't nobody about.
00:04:11She was all alone.
00:04:13Well, we know that you saw nobody, Miss Pates,
00:04:15but in what you describe as a jungle,
00:04:16there could have been any number of people hiding.
00:04:19Oh, yes, I see what you mean.
00:04:21There could have been people hiding.
00:04:24And since you did not leave the road,
00:04:26you could not have seen round the other side of the house?
00:04:28No.
00:04:29Which is or was a large rambling building.
00:04:32Yes, sir.
00:04:32A great barrack of a place.
00:04:35Thank you, Miss Pates.
00:04:38Councillor Williams,
00:04:39your bicycle passed Tipskill Manor at 25 minutes past seven.
00:04:42Yes, sir.
00:04:43What did you see there?
00:04:44Smoke, sir.
00:04:45There was smoke going up the side of the house.
00:04:47I dismounted, sir, ran towards it,
00:04:49and there was a fire started in a wooden shed up against the house.
00:04:52Was any person nearby?
00:04:54Yes, sir, the accused.
00:04:55Well, where was the accused in relation to the fire?
00:04:59Right there on the spot, about six feet away.
00:05:01What was she doing?
00:05:03Standing looking at the fire, staring at it.
00:05:07Could you describe her appearance?
00:05:09Yes, she was highly excited.
00:05:11She was waving a stick.
00:05:12At what?
00:05:13At the fire.
00:05:15Was there anything else about her appearance?
00:05:17Yes, her clothes were singed.
00:05:19She had on a woolly coat.
00:05:21There were sparks in the wool smouldering.
00:05:23And the fire at this moment?
00:05:25I was really taking hold.
00:05:26There was a bit of a breeze, see?
00:05:27And all of a sudden,
00:05:28the flames came right out of a window above the shed where it started.
00:05:32And what action did you take?
00:05:33Well, I had to get away to a telephone, sir.
00:05:35I said, get back out of this, and I ran to me bike.
00:05:38And then?
00:05:39Well, it's about half a mile to the nearest house,
00:05:41Roundwood Farm.
00:05:43I used the telephone there for the fire brigade.
00:05:45And having telephoned?
00:05:46I went straight back to the house.
00:05:49It was well away, proper inferno.
00:05:51I looked around for the accused,
00:05:52saw her about 30 yards away from the house.
00:05:54I approached her, cautioned her,
00:05:57and said, what did you go and do a thing like that for?
00:05:59Did the accused make any reply?
00:06:01No, sir.
00:06:02She stood looking at me like I wasn't there.
00:06:04And then looked back to the fire.
00:06:06Now, were her appearance and manner the same as when you first saw her?
00:06:10No, she seemed calmer.
00:06:12She wasn't waving a stick like before.
00:06:14She seemed quite calm and collected.
00:06:16And I said, I hope you're pleased with what you've done.
00:06:19Yes, you were, in effect, accusing her of having started the fire.
00:06:23Well, it seemed obvious to me at the time, sir.
00:06:25Maybe no one else about, no one nearer than the farm.
00:06:28Did the accused make a reply?
00:06:30Yes, she said, I am pleased and proud with what I have done.
00:06:33I said, well, that's it then.
00:06:34It's a criminal offence.
00:06:35You'll have to come with me.
00:06:37And did she reply to that?
00:06:38No, she stood looking at me in the fire.
00:06:40I then tried to help her towards the road.
00:06:43Did she require your help to get to the road?
00:06:45No, she refused my help, sir.
00:06:47She said, I'm perfectly capable of crossing this garden.
00:06:50And was she?
00:06:51Yeah, made it to the road quite brisk.
00:06:53Without any assistance from you?
00:06:55Didn't require my assistance, sir.
00:06:57At this juncture, the fire engines arrived.
00:06:59What happened then, Constable?
00:07:01Well, Mr Hadfield come in his car.
00:07:04And when he could, he very kindly sent us down to the police station.
00:07:06Is Mr Hadfield the municipal fire officer?
00:07:08Yes, sir.
00:07:09And when you arrived at the police station?
00:07:11Made my report and the accused was charged.
00:07:13Did she make a reply when charged?
00:07:16Yes, she said, I'm completely innocent.
00:07:18I know the law.
00:07:19Nothing else?
00:07:20Nothing else at all.
00:07:22Right.
00:07:23Now, could we go back, Constable Williams,
00:07:24to the moment when you first saw the smoke?
00:07:27You were bicycling along the road.
00:07:30Was there anyone else on the road?
00:07:32No, the road was entirely deserted, sir, except for myself.
00:07:35So how much of the road could you see from the point at which you stopped?
00:07:39Well, about a mile behind, maybe 300 yards ahead.
00:07:42And the road was empty?
00:07:44Yes, sir.
00:07:45What about the area around the house?
00:07:47There was no one there, except for the accused.
00:07:50Thank you, Constable.
00:07:54Constable Williams, you have testified that the accused pointed with her stick?
00:07:58Yes, sir.
00:07:59With one of her two sticks?
00:08:00Yes, sir.
00:08:01And the other stick?
00:08:02She was holding the other stick.
00:08:03Leaning on it?
00:08:04Yeah.
00:08:05Bent forward?
00:08:06Somewhat bent.
00:08:07It was supporting her?
00:08:08I think it was, yeah.
00:08:10She appeared to need the support of one stick while she waved with the other?
00:08:13Yes, sir.
00:08:14You say that she appeared excited?
00:08:17Yes.
00:08:18And she pointed with her stick at the fire?
00:08:20Yes, sir.
00:08:20In other words, she was pointing out the fire to you?
00:08:23Well, hardly needed it pointed out to me.
00:08:25I mean, not whether blazing like it was.
00:08:26Nevertheless, she indicated to you with her stick that there was a fire?
00:08:30Yes, sir.
00:08:30And when she did so, she was excited?
00:08:33She appeared to be in a state of high excitement, sir.
00:08:36Can you elaborate on that?
00:08:38Well, it was just high excitement.
00:08:40The fire was now burning vigorously and the accused was six feet away from it?
00:08:45Yes.
00:08:45She pointed it out to you with her stick in a state of high excitement?
00:08:49Yes.
00:08:50Did it not occur to you that she was trying to tell you to put it out?
00:08:53Well, that's not how it struck me, sir.
00:08:55Well, she wasn't trying to hide the fire from you.
00:08:57No.
00:08:58Nor trying to hide herself?
00:08:59No, sir.
00:09:00On the contrary, she was urgently pointing out the fire to you.
00:09:04Yes, sir.
00:09:06In the flames that were now roaring, there must have been burning fragments being blown about.
00:09:11Not that I saw.
00:09:12There may have been some.
00:09:13I don't recall seeing burning fragments being blown about, sir.
00:09:16Can you swear that there were no fragments?
00:09:17Well, I expect there may have been a few.
00:09:22And the accused was quite close enough to the fire for burning fragments, if any, to have lodged in her clothes?
00:09:27Yes, sir.
00:09:28Which would account for the singeing and smouldering that you saw?
00:09:31Yes.
00:09:32If the accused had herself tried to put the fire out, that would also account for the singeing of her clothes?
00:09:38Yes, it would.
00:09:39Did it not cross your mind that the accused was in the state of shocked excitement which you describe and was singed closed because she herself had tried to put the fire out?
00:09:47That's not how it struck me, sir.
00:09:49Does it not strike you now?
00:09:50No.
00:09:51My lord, my learned friend is asking the witness to speculate about events which he did not see.
00:09:56Yes, Mr. Collier, please confine your questions to what the witness saw and did.
00:10:01Very well, my lord.
00:10:02The witness has testified as to his assumption that the accused started the fire, which was also speculation about an event he did not see.
00:10:10He has testified as to what he said and why he said it.
00:10:15Very well, my lord.
00:10:17Now, Constable Williams, you said to the accused, what did you go and do a thing like that for, having jumped to the conclusion that the accused had started the fire?
00:10:25It was the only conclusion to come to.
00:10:26Because she appeared to be alone?
00:10:28She was alone, sir.
00:10:29How can you swear that she was alone?
00:10:32Well, no one else was visible in the vicinity of the house.
00:10:34You didn't go round the house?
00:10:36No, sir.
00:10:36Nor into it?
00:10:37Not likely.
00:10:38Did you thoroughly explore the dense shrubbery and undergrowth near the house?
00:10:43No, sir.
00:10:43The undergrowth is dense?
00:10:45Yes, quite a tangle of bushes, sir.
00:10:47Large enough and thick enough to have concealed a person or many persons?
00:10:50I suppose so.
00:10:51Well, without asking you to speculate, Constable, but only describe the shrubbery,
00:10:56was it of a kind that could have concealed, say, half a dozen small boys in hiding?
00:11:02Well, yes, sir.
00:11:03There could have been small boys.
00:11:04I'm sure there wasn't.
00:11:04How are you sure?
00:11:06Constable, you cannot be sure there wasn't an army of small boys in the bushes
00:11:10or round the other side of the house.
00:11:12There could have been boys.
00:11:16Now, the accused, when you saw her, was leaning on one stick and waving with the other.
00:11:21Yes, sir.
00:11:22Since she held a stick in each hand, she was carrying nothing else?
00:11:25No.
00:11:26No handbag?
00:11:27She was carrying nothing?
00:11:28No, sir.
00:11:29Nor was there anything nearby on the ground?
00:11:31No, sir.
00:11:31Not that I saw.
00:11:32No package, carrier bag, nothing?
00:11:34No, sir.
00:11:47I see.
00:11:48So when the accused crossed the rough ground to the road, she did so without your assistance?
00:11:53Yes, sir.
00:11:53But you offered your assistance?
00:11:55Yes, sir.
00:11:56Why?
00:11:57Well, she's a very elderly woman.
00:11:59An old lady.
00:12:00I thought she'd be glad of her hand.
00:12:01Because of her age and frailty and difficulty in walking?
00:12:04Yes, sir.
00:12:05When she was standing still, she was able to gesture with one stick while leaning on the other.
00:12:10But as soon as she made any attempt to walk...
00:12:12She used both her sticks.
00:12:14...with each step that she took, when she crossed the rough ground to the road, she required the support of both sticks.
00:12:20Yes, sir.
00:12:20You said to the accused, I hope you're pleased with what you've done.
00:12:26Yes, having formed the opinion that she was responsible for the fire.
00:12:29Having jumped to that conclusion when you first saw the accused close to the fire.
00:12:32Yes, sir.
00:12:33And you jumped to that conclusion on the basis of your observation.
00:12:37First, that the accused was close to the fire.
00:12:40Second, that no one else was visible close to the fire.
00:12:43Third, that her clothing was singed by the fire.
00:12:46And fourth, that she appeared to be excited about the fire.
00:12:49Yes.
00:12:50Because of these things, and no others, you concluded that she had started the fire.
00:12:55But you made no attempt to take her into custody for the serious crime which you thought she had just committed.
00:13:00I did take her into custody.
00:13:01At the time when you first saw the accused, and before you went away to telephone,
00:13:05all you did was to warn her to get away to a place of safety.
00:13:09Yes, sir.
00:13:10You took no action at all to secure the person of this to you obvious criminal.
00:13:16Well, the other seemed more urgent.
00:13:17Getting a fire engine seemed the urgent thing.
00:13:19If you'd found a small boy with a box of matches in his hand, surely you'd have collared him.
00:13:23Yes, before he ran away.
00:13:25If he ran away, he would have escaped the consequences of his crime.
00:13:28Yes, sir.
00:13:29But you made no immediate attempt to arrest the accused, because it did not cross your mind that she would try and run away and hide.
00:13:36I didn't think she could run very far.
00:13:38You mean that she can only walk slowly, and with difficulty, and with the aid of two sticks.
00:13:42Yes, sir.
00:13:44And in any case, she showed no signs of even wishing to escape.
00:13:48No.
00:13:48You thought you'd be quite safe in leaving her, that when you got back from telephoning, she would still be there.
00:13:54I suppose I did.
00:13:55And in the event, when you did get back, she had made no attempt to escape, but was standing in full view, watching the fire.
00:14:02Yes.
00:14:03Is that what you'd expect of someone who's just committed a crime?
00:14:07Well, I don't think the accused is like an ordinary criminal, sir.
00:14:10I agree with you, constable.
00:14:11And I don't think, do you, that in making no attempt to hide either the fire or herself, she was acting like any kind of criminal, ordinary or not.
00:14:21Like a person who's committed any kind of crime.
00:14:23That's not like a normal delinquent, no.
00:14:27Did you caution her?
00:14:28She appears to have no recollection of it.
00:14:30I did, sir.
00:14:31Well, you said, look what you've done.
00:14:34And when she made no reply, you said, I hope you're pleased with what you've done.
00:14:38To which she replied, yes, I am pleased and proud with what I've done.
00:14:44How did you interpret that reply?
00:14:46What did you think she meant?
00:14:48Well, I took it as an admission, sir.
00:14:50Why?
00:14:52Well, it's obvious.
00:14:53Was it?
00:14:55Suppose the accused had herself tried and failed to put the fire out.
00:14:59Might she not at her age be proud of that?
00:15:01Is that not an equally possible solution?
00:15:03My lord, my learned friend is now asking the witness to speculate about the mental workings of another person.
00:15:09Yes, Mr. Colley, the accused can tell us what she meant when she herself gives evidence it is not a subject about which this witness could testify.
00:15:17As your lordship pleases.
00:15:19I'm suggesting that the witness jump to unwarrantable conclusions as to the meaning of the words the accused employed and as to the reasons for her visible excitement.
00:15:28Yes, I take your point, Mr. Colley, but you must confine your question to matters about which this witness can testify.
00:15:35Yes, my lord.
00:15:37I have no further questions.
00:15:41Mr. Hadfield, as part of your duties, you made an inspection of Tipskill Manor on the morning after the fire.
00:15:47I did, sir.
00:15:49What was the result of your investigations?
00:15:51I concluded deliberate incendiary-ism.
00:15:54The premises were not on the main electricity supply.
00:15:56The generator that had supplied electricity to the house was inoperative and had apparently not been in use for many years.
00:16:03There were no traces of damp straw or any other decomposing material that could have caused spontaneous combustion.
00:16:08The sun had been, at the relevant time the previous evening, neither high enough nor bright enough to have started a fire by an accidental burning glass.
00:16:18The wooden shed in which the combustion had started had, in any case, no glass in the windows.
00:16:23Apart from finding no reason to suspect spontaneous combustion, did you find any reason to suggest deliberate fire-raising?
00:16:32Yes, sir.
00:16:33An empty half-gallon paraffin can.
00:16:35May the witness be shown Exhibit 1, please.
00:16:37Is that the can?
00:16:43Yes, sir.
00:16:44It was lying about seven feet from the corner of the lean-to shed, concealed in a clump of briars.
00:16:50The paint of the label was somewhat scorched, but substantially legible.
00:16:54And you think it probable, Mr Hadfield, that the fire was started with paraffin which was poured over the lean-to shed from that can,
00:17:02and that the can itself was then concealed in the brambles, which were themselves partly burnt?
00:17:07Oh, I should think it more than probable.
00:17:09Everything I saw was consistent with the fire having been started as you describe.
00:17:13I'm obliged, Mr Hadfield.
00:17:15Now, Mr Hadfield, the can appears to have no date.
00:17:21No, sir.
00:17:22It's made of a non-corrosive material which neither rusts nor weathers.
00:17:27Matters so, yes.
00:17:28So the can could have been in the brambles for a week, or a month, or even a year.
00:17:33Not a year, sir.
00:17:35The brambles would have grown over it completely.
00:17:37Well, just so.
00:17:38Let's say the can could have been in the brambles for a week.
00:17:42I suppose it is possible, sir, strictly speaking, that someone, for obscure motives,
00:17:48might have hid the can and the brambles quite empty a week before.
00:17:52So that in linking the can to the fire, you are reaching a conclusion which, while on the face of it obvious, is in fact speculative.
00:17:59Well, at least it's a more convincing speculation that someone went all that way to an empty house to hide an empty can in some brambles.
00:18:07Well, returning from speculation, Mr Hadfield, you say that the damage was consistent with the fire having been started with paraffin.
00:18:15And inconsistent with anything else.
00:18:17That fire didn't start on its own.
00:18:19You mean that you could find no reason for it having started on its own?
00:18:23None.
00:18:23That's not the same thing, Mr Hadfield.
00:18:25I give it as my opinion, sir, formed not lightly, that no accident without human agency could have started a fire in a premises without electricity,
00:18:35without material that could have caused spontaneous combustion, and without bright sunlight.
00:18:41I've never seen a clearer case of arson.
00:18:43You're careful to use the word opinion.
00:18:45Yes, sir.
00:18:46And I'm careful with that opinion.
00:18:48Well, then, in your opinion, could a small amount of petrol splashed on the shed have been used to start the fire?
00:18:56Certainly, sir.
00:18:58But what I found was a paraffin can.
00:19:00But petrol or any other inflammable spirit could have been used.
00:19:05Yes, sir.
00:19:05And a match struck by anybody who happened to be there with a matchbox.
00:19:09With respect, sir, I'm not asked to form an opinion about who struck the match.
00:19:14But I am qualified to give an opinion that a match was struck.
00:19:18Thank you, Mr Hadfield.
00:19:19I call Albert Morton.
00:19:21Albert Morton, please.
00:19:31What is your religion?
00:19:33Shelf Zwingner.
00:19:34Take the Bible in your right hand and read aloud the words on this carpet.
00:19:37I swear by all mighty God that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth, the old truth, and nothing but the truth.
00:19:44Mr Morton, you are the owner of Morton's Home Stores of Glenview Road, Fulchester?
00:19:49Yes, sir.
00:19:50Have you seen the accused before?
00:19:52Yes, sir.
00:19:53She's a regular customer.
00:19:54Comes in twice a week or thereabouts.
00:19:56And has been doing so for how long?
00:19:58Oh, ever so long.
00:20:00As far back as I can remember.
00:20:02Oh, since I was demobbed and took over the shop from my dad.
00:20:05And what did the accused buy from you?
00:20:08Grocery.
00:20:08It's a usual kind of order, sir.
00:20:10Which you delivered.
00:20:11The last few years I've been delivering, sir, yes.
00:20:14On account of Miss Conway getting on, you know.
00:20:16Not so young as she was.
00:20:18Did you ever buy paraffin from you?
00:20:20Not once in all dem years, sir.
00:20:23And suddenly she wants paraffin.
00:20:25Half a gallon can.
00:20:27Paraffin, I says Miss Conway.
00:20:28Paraffin, she says quite bluntly.
00:20:30Not inviting questions.
00:20:32Can you remember the date?
00:20:34Second week in July, sir.
00:20:36Were you surprised by this order?
00:20:38Well, it did seem a bit odd, sir.
00:20:40I mean, here we are in midsummer and quite a hot spell.
00:20:43What brand of paraffin did you deliver to Miss Conway?
00:20:46Warmglow, sir.
00:20:47That's the one I carry.
00:20:48Was it in a container like this?
00:20:50Yes, sir.
00:20:51That could be the very one.
00:20:53Now, how much paraffin has the accused brought from you since?
00:20:55None, sir.
00:20:57None?
00:20:57No, sir.
00:20:58Just the single, isolated can in July?
00:21:02Yes, sir.
00:21:03Thank you, Mr. Morton.
00:21:06Mr. Morton, do you know of other grocers who sell paraffin?
00:21:09Oh, quite a number, ain't it, sir?
00:21:12Ironmongers and garages also?
00:21:14Well, they've all got part of the trade, sir.
00:21:15In fact, there are hundreds of such businesses in Fulchester.
00:21:18Of course, there must be hundreds, sir.
00:21:20Many of which carry this same brand?
00:21:23I should imagine so, yes.
00:21:24So you could not possibly identify this can as one which you sold?
00:21:29No, sir.
00:21:30But it is like what I sell.
00:21:31And like what many others sell.
00:21:33The design on the can hasn't changed recently.
00:21:36Not that I can recall, sir.
00:21:38I think they've had this print for a very long time.
00:21:40So you could not put a date on this can?
00:21:42Oh, impossible, sir.
00:21:44You or any other retailer might have sold it to anybody at any time over many years.
00:21:50Yes, sir.
00:21:51Thank you, Mr. Morton.
00:21:52Thanks, sir.
00:21:52I want to be quite sure that we understand the witness on one point, my lord.
00:21:57Very well.
00:21:58Mr. Morton, Miss Conway has been buying all her groceries from you for over 30 years.
00:22:03Oh, yes, sir.
00:22:05Takes me back to the ration book day, sir.
00:22:06And in all that time, she has never bought paraffin.
00:22:10Never.
00:22:11Thank you, Mr. Morton.
00:22:12Thanks.
00:22:13Does your lordship have any questions?
00:22:14No.
00:22:15Thank you, Mr. Morton.
00:22:17That concludes the case of the prosecution, my lord.
00:22:19It appears to be slightly incomplete, Mr. O'Connor.
00:22:24My lord?
00:22:25I defer to evidence as to ownership of the property which the accused is alleged to have
00:22:30destroyed.
00:22:31Yes, well, there has been a difficulty, my lord.
00:22:34The owner of the property is believed to be in Australia.
00:22:36It has not been possible to make contact with his solicitors or with himself, and the whereabouts
00:22:41of the deed is unknown.
00:22:42A great number of property deeds were destroyed in the war when the offices of solicitors and
00:22:47insurance companies were damaged due to bombing.
00:22:50It seems likely that this deed was amongst those.
00:22:53However, the defendant's solicitor have been kind enough to indicate to me that no claim
00:22:58is made that the property belongs to their client.
00:23:01Is that so, Mr. Collier?
00:23:02Indeed, my lord.
00:23:03My lord, I call Millicent Conway.
00:23:33The case of the Queen against Conway will be resumed tomorrow in the Crown Court.
00:24:03Millicent Conway has pleaded not guilty to a charge of arson, having been accused of deliberately
00:24:11destroying, by fire, a large empty house near Forchester.
00:24:15An expert witness has said that the fire must have been started deliberately.
00:24:19The accused bought a can of paraffin just before the date of the fire, although she'd
00:24:23never bought paraffin before.
00:24:25The defence is about to open its case with the evidence of the accused.
00:24:33May the accused be permitted to sit, my lord?
00:24:51But yes, of course.
00:25:03Where were you on the evening of 17th July last?
00:25:11I took a bus toward Mavis Green, and there is a request stop near Tipskill Manor, and
00:25:19there I descended from the bus and walked the short distance to the house.
00:25:23Why did you make this trip?
00:25:25Sentiment.
00:25:26It was a sentimental journey, revisiting my very distant use.
00:25:32You see, before I became a teacher, I was a nursery governess, and at Tipskill Manor I was
00:25:40employed over a very happy period to look after and to teach the four children of Major and
00:25:46Mrs. Scott Godden.
00:25:47You had never made the journey before to revisit Tipskill Manor?
00:25:51No.
00:25:52I had often wanted to, but many things deterred me.
00:25:56I moved away to take other situations, and did not return here till the end of the recent war.
00:26:04Then there were other people living in the manor, and I did not want to see other people, my house in other people's hands.
00:26:12So I waited.
00:26:14Then I understood it was caretakers only.
00:26:19And then I heard, I think it was in the post office, that even they had been removed, and now the house was quite abandoned.
00:26:28But it was in my mind, constantly in my mind, to revisit.
00:26:32So, I waited until it was very fine, and very warm, and until I felt nimble enough to negotiate the steps of the motor bus.
00:26:43And then out I came.
00:26:46But a lot of me regretted seeing the place in such a miserable and abandoned state.
00:26:53Weeds everywhere, broken windows, and oh, dark and silent.
00:26:59But then memory came flooding back.
00:27:03Oh, I was very happy there before the war.
00:27:05The war?
00:27:06Yes, the Kaiser War.
00:27:08Of course, the major rejoined his regiment, and I took another position.
00:27:13On the evening of your visit, you entered the garden.
00:27:17Yes.
00:27:18I picked my way through rank secrets of goodness knows what vegetation.
00:27:23I crossed what used to be our croquet lawn, and where I was often invited to join in the games.
00:27:28Did you see anyone else?
00:27:31Yes.
00:27:31I saw a young girl pushing her bicycle.
00:27:35She seemed rather as if she wanted to stop, but I didn't want my reveries interrupted, so I just glanced at her and looked away.
00:27:44Oh, I do hope she didn't think I was rude.
00:27:47Anyone else?
00:27:49Did you see anyone else near the house?
00:27:52Oh.
00:27:53Oh, well, now I must try to be entirely accurate.
00:27:56Yes, please do.
00:27:58Yes.
00:27:59Well, I do not think I clearly and distinctly saw any other person.
00:28:06You were in the garden.
00:28:08What then?
00:28:09I saw fire.
00:28:11What exactly did you see?
00:28:13Smoke.
00:28:14Little wisps of smoke coming between the cracks of the walls of a very ugly little shed built against the wall of the house, and inside the shed, as it appeared, a giant smoking a cigar.
00:28:29Oh, well, that was only a ridiculous impression that I had.
00:28:34At first I never thought of fire, never dawned upon me that fire could just start like that.
00:28:42But then I saw the little baby flames running up the side of the wall.
00:28:47What did you do?
00:28:48Well, I made all speak to get the spot.
00:28:50With what intention?
00:28:51To put the fire out, of course, to extinguish the flames.
00:28:55Which you tried to do.
00:28:56Huh.
00:28:57So no effect.
00:28:58Now, an able-bodied man could have saved the situation, but it was beyond me.
00:29:04I only succeeded in ruining my woolly.
00:29:07Were you not frightened?
00:29:09No.
00:29:10Angry.
00:29:12And then that ridiculous policeman came running up.
00:29:15A ridiculous policeman came running up?
00:29:17Yes.
00:29:18Dressed in a police uniform.
00:29:21I thought he was in fancy dress.
00:29:22Why was that?
00:29:23Well, he looked so ridiculously young and completely helpless.
00:29:28But there, I suppose it is difficult nowadays to recruit men of the old stamp.
00:29:35What did the police officer do?
00:29:37Nothing.
00:29:38He did nothing?
00:29:39No.
00:29:40Nothing.
00:29:41He simply stood there gawping like a half-wind and seemed to know what his duty was, so I
00:29:48ventured to point it out to him.
00:29:51By gesture?
00:29:51Well, I was beyond speech.
00:29:53I pointed out with my stick where the center of the fire was, and I thought, well, he's
00:29:58only got to kick the shed down and stop the flames from getting to the house.
00:30:02But he only turned and ran away.
00:30:05And you?
00:30:05Well, I thought it's safer to do the same thing.
00:30:08Of course, I couldn't run away as fast as he did.
00:30:11But I made shift to withdraw.
00:30:14You stood watching the fire.
00:30:16What next?
00:30:17Well, then the policeman returned.
00:30:20Oh, well, I suppose I must accept that he was a genuine policeman, although he looked
00:30:25very underage.
00:30:26And if I may say this without cruelty, definitely no intelligence at all.
00:30:34I see.
00:30:35So when he returned, he spoke to you?
00:30:38Yes.
00:30:38He came clumping up to me and said, why did you try to put the fire out?
00:30:42He asked you.
00:30:43Well, I took that to be the purport of the question he was asking me.
00:30:47You heard the constable's evidence?
00:30:48Oh, yes, yes, quite well, thank you.
00:30:50Oh, yes, his enunciation was very good.
00:30:54He has testified that he cautioned you and then said, what did you go and do a thing like
00:30:59that for?
00:30:59Yes, well, I think he meant, why had I endangered myself trying to put the fire out when such
00:31:05an effort was doomed to failure.
00:31:08And you made no reply?
00:31:09Well, I didn't think he'd called for a reply.
00:31:12Did he make a further remark?
00:31:14Oh, I can't remember precisely what he said.
00:31:17Well, he has testified that he said, I hope you are pleased with what you've done.
00:31:22Oh, yes, yes.
00:31:24Now, here, I thought, was a sign of grace.
00:31:27Of grace?
00:31:28Yes, of grace, my lord.
00:31:29You see, he was commiserating with me on my failure, but he was paying tribute to the
00:31:33attempt.
00:31:35Consequently, you replied.
00:31:40Yes, I said, of course.
00:31:42I am pleased and proud with what I have done.
00:31:45Oh, dear, that sounds a little vainglorious.
00:31:48And the officer then said?
00:31:50Well, something completely idiotic.
00:31:52I was dumbfounded.
00:31:53Well, he has testified that he said, that's it then.
00:31:56It's a criminal offence and you'll have to come along with me.
00:31:59Yes.
00:32:00Well, you can see why I was astonished.
00:32:02I couldn't make head or tail of it.
00:32:04But it seemed that he wanted to have the house burned down.
00:32:08The law had insisted that the house should be burned down.
00:32:11And I was to be arraigned as a felon for trying to save the house.
00:32:14Well, it was some time before it dawned upon me what they all meant.
00:32:18How much later?
00:32:19Well, in the police station.
00:32:22And then, to my unutterable amazement, they said that I was to be arrested for starting the fire.
00:32:32Which you did not do.
00:32:33My old home, where I'd been the happiest in all my life, with the kindest of employers, the sweetest of children, burn it down, me, that of all houses.
00:32:49So you denied the charge?
00:32:52Well, of course I did.
00:32:53Of all the ridiculous misunderstandings, that was the most absurd.
00:32:56Constable Williams testifies that in reply to the charge, you protested your innocence and added, I know the law.
00:33:04Well, not as well as you or the other gentleman, or even his lordship himself.
00:33:10But I do know that British justice is revered all through the world, and that in the end, this dreadful business would be cleared up.
00:33:19Can we return to your journey on the bus?
00:33:22The platform of the bus is rather high for you.
00:33:26Well, my knees do not bend as they did.
00:33:29But with your sticks, you managed.
00:33:31Yes, yes.
00:33:32A stick in each hand?
00:33:34Alas, as always.
00:33:36So it would have been difficult for you to carry anything?
00:33:38Oh, very awkward.
00:33:40Were you, in fact, carrying anything?
00:33:42Nothing.
00:33:43Not even a handbag?
00:33:44Nothing.
00:33:45What about your money for the bus?
00:33:48Oh, well, I always carry a change purse in the pocket of my woolly.
00:33:54I have it in the pocket of this coat.
00:33:57It's easier.
00:33:58Thank you, Miss Conway.
00:33:59You returned to Fulchester after a very long absence at the end of the war.
00:34:11Yes.
00:34:12You see, I find it strange that for 30 years you made no attempt to revisit the scenes of your happiness.
00:34:20The very evening when you did come, the house was burnt down.
00:34:24Now, well...
00:34:26Oh, I did not know that was a question, my lord.
00:34:34I heard the gentleman say he found something rather very strange, but I didn't know I'd been invited to comment.
00:34:39I will rephrase it.
00:34:43Is it not strange that you should have waited so long to revisit Tipskill Manor?
00:34:50Only to a certain type of mind, I think.
00:34:52To the literal and unromantic type of mind.
00:34:55But I'm a very sentimental old woman, and I didn't want to see the house full of people that I did not know.
00:35:02I preferred my memories as I knew it.
00:35:05Well, is it not also strange that on the very evening that you went there, the house should happen to burn down?
00:35:12Very strange.
00:35:13An extraordinary coincidence.
00:35:16Extraordinary?
00:35:16Well, really too extraordinary to believe, don't you agree?
00:35:20Not to someone of my age.
00:35:22Well, horseless carriages, flying machines, men walking about in the moon.
00:35:29They're all too extraordinary to believe.
00:35:33During all your 30 years here, you have bought all your groceries from Mr. Morton?
00:35:39Yes, his shop was clean and very near my lodgings.
00:35:41Yes, you have not in all those years ever bought paraffin?
00:35:45Well, I'm not so wealthy that I buy anything of which I have no need.
00:35:50You have no need of paraffin?
00:35:52I have had no need of paraffin.
00:35:55But last July you suddenly needed it?
00:35:57Yes.
00:35:58For burning down a house?
00:35:59No.
00:36:00For what purpose then?
00:36:01For my paraffin heater in my room.
00:36:04You possess a paraffin heater?
00:36:06No.
00:36:07Well, yet you buy paraffin for one.
00:36:09Well, you bought half a gallon of paraffin to burn in a heater which you did not have.
00:36:17Yes, my lord.
00:36:18You see, the heater was to come next.
00:36:20You were planning to buy a heater?
00:36:25Well, yes.
00:36:26Otherwise, I wouldn't have spent the money on the paraffin.
00:36:28Would it not have been more logical to have bought the heater and then the paraffin?
00:36:33Why?
00:36:34Well, the paraffin is no use without the heater, is it?
00:36:39The heater is no use without the paraffin.
00:36:42I needed both.
00:36:44I think it's quite as logical to buy the one first as the other first.
00:36:48And I happened to buy the paraffin first.
00:37:03Miss Conway, is the paraffin still in your room?
00:37:06No.
00:37:07It has disappeared.
00:37:08Well, can you account for its disappearance?
00:37:10I can't swear to anything.
00:37:11Well, half-gallon cans of paraffin do not sprout wings and fly.
00:37:15No, indeed, that's unheard of.
00:37:17Yes, well, have you no idea at all what has become of your can of paraffin, then?
00:37:21I would rather not say.
00:37:25You must say.
00:37:27Truly, I would rather not.
00:37:29Was it not used to start a fire at Tixkill Manor?
00:37:32Is that not where your can of paraffin has gone?
00:37:35Well, you must answer counsel's question.
00:37:40Well, I...
00:37:41I think...
00:37:43Mrs Liddell may have taken it.
00:37:46Mrs Liddell, your landlady.
00:37:47Oh, well, she only borrowed it.
00:37:49Does she, to your knowledge, use paraffin?
00:37:50Well, she must have had some use for it.
00:37:52Well, I suggest that your landlady has no use for paraffin,
00:37:55that she didn't touch the paraffin in your room.
00:37:57And there's an accusation of theft.
00:37:59Borrowing!
00:38:02When did you notice that your paraffin was missing?
00:38:04Oh, I can't remember the date.
00:38:07A long time ago?
00:38:08Some little while ago.
00:38:09As long ago as July?
00:38:11Yeah, could be July.
00:38:12It's about the 17th of July?
00:38:13Somewhere about then.
00:38:14Before the fire at Tixkill Manor?
00:38:17Before or after?
00:38:19Well, I suggest to you that your paraffin was removed from your room on the night of the fire.
00:38:23Oh, yes.
00:38:24Yes.
00:38:25Now, that is quite likely.
00:38:27You agree with me?
00:38:28Yes, of course.
00:38:29I was out for a very long time.
00:38:32So, if Mrs Liddell had wanted to borrow something from my room,
00:38:37well, that was a very good evening for her to do it.
00:38:41I see.
00:38:43Now, you have heard a very experienced fire officer testify that the fire could not have started on its own.
00:38:51Well, that fireman knows more about fires in general than I do, but I know more about that one because I was there.
00:38:59You have no idea at all how an empty can of paraffin, identical to one that you had just purchased,
00:39:08though you had no paraffin heater,
00:39:10an empty can of paraffin, identical to one that had just disappeared from your room,
00:39:17how it happened to be found in the immediate vicinity of the house hidden in the brambles.
00:39:22Oh, I'm afraid I've lost the thread of that question.
00:39:25It was very long.
00:39:31I suggest to you that you, and not Mrs Liddell, remove that paraffin from your room,
00:39:37that you took it to Tipskill Manor,
00:39:40that you poured it on the lean-to shed,
00:39:42and that you set light to the fire.
00:39:45No, no, no.
00:39:47I've explained this to you over and over again.
00:39:50Your account of the matter is all upside down,
00:39:54and the police have got it all wrong.
00:39:56You've both of you got hold of the wrong end of the stick.
00:40:01Nevertheless, you could not forbear to watch the house burning.
00:40:04Well, of course not.
00:40:06When I was tiny, the one day in the year that I adored was Guy Fawkes.
00:40:11Oh, the fireworks, the squibs, and the bonfires, most of all.
00:40:16I used to be quite ill with excitement.
00:40:18And you feel that excitement to this day in watching a fire?
00:40:22I no longer feel ill.
00:40:25But fires, big fires, are exciting.
00:40:29I'm so glad you agree with me.
00:40:31And the clang of the fire engines?
00:40:33Oh, quite an anticlimax.
00:40:36Oh, you were sorry when the fire engines turned up?
00:40:40You didn't want the fire in?
00:40:42Oh, they spoiled the fun.
00:40:45Of course they did.
00:40:46They spoiled all the fun of the house burning down.
00:40:49And such an ugly house.
00:40:52An ugly house, was it?
00:40:53Oh, miserably ugly.
00:40:54Victorian baronial at its worst.
00:40:56You disliked the house?
00:40:58Oh, I detested it.
00:40:59It's the people in the house that matter.
00:41:02Do you not agree?
00:41:03The house was ugly and uncomfortable.
00:41:06Yes, it was indeed.
00:41:09In fact, you hated it.
00:41:11Well, I have every reason to hate this building.
00:41:14But I'm not attempting to burn it down.
00:41:16When you revisited Tipskill Manor,
00:41:20it was no longer sheltering the people whom you loved.
00:41:22They were long gone.
00:41:24There was nobody there to be injured.
00:41:26I must be thankful for that mercy.
00:41:28You knew that there had been caretakers there,
00:41:30but you also knew that they had left.
00:41:32Yes, I think it was in the post office that they told me.
00:41:37And this was shortly before your visit?
00:41:39Yes, shortly before.
00:41:41That knowledge was, in fact, as you have said,
00:41:43the immediate reason for your visit.
00:41:45Well, I don't visit every house where there is no caretaker.
00:41:49I put the question badly.
00:41:50Yes.
00:41:52You had refrained from visiting the house
00:41:55whilst the caretakers were there,
00:41:57but you had resolved to visit it
00:41:59as soon as you knew that they had left.
00:42:00Soon afterwards.
00:42:02Well, you heard that the house was almost falling down.
00:42:05You knew that it was empty.
00:42:06It wasn't guarded.
00:42:08It was no longer fulfilling a useful function.
00:42:11Nobody would be hurt if it was burnt down.
00:42:13Nobody would even grieve very much.
00:42:15Isn't that right?
00:42:17You might be describing me.
00:42:20I'm constantly nearly falling down,
00:42:22and I'm not guarded,
00:42:23and I'm not serving any useful purpose.
00:42:27But I'm not thinking of burning myself down.
00:42:30You watched the house burn with what you have compared
00:42:35to a child's excitement on Guy Fawkes night.
00:42:39Then you told Constable Williams
00:42:41you were pleased with what you had done.
00:42:43Well, of course.
00:42:44I had tried to put the fire out.
00:42:46The house was empty,
00:42:50ugly,
00:42:51decrepit,
00:42:52and useless,
00:42:53and yet you tried to put the fire out.
00:42:55I felt it was my duty.
00:42:58All my life, my lord,
00:43:00I have tried to do my duty.
00:43:04I have no further questions, my lord.
00:43:06You should re-examine, Mr Collier.
00:43:07I do have a few questions, my lord.
00:43:10We have heard a great deal
00:43:12about a half-gallon can of paraffin.
00:43:15Now, Mr Morton has said
00:43:16that he delivered the can to your lodgings.
00:43:18Yes, he did very kindly do so.
00:43:20Had he not done so...
00:43:21But he did do so, Mr Collier.
00:43:24My lord,
00:43:25I'm suggesting that had the accused
00:43:27attempted unaided
00:43:29to carry a half-gallon can...
00:43:31I know what you are suggesting, Mr Collier,
00:43:33but it does seem to be
00:43:34a novel line of questioning.
00:43:36With respect, my lord,
00:43:38it is already established
00:43:39that the accused
00:43:40walks with two sticks
00:43:42and, in consequence,
00:43:44carries no handbag
00:43:45but a small purse.
00:43:46Now, the accused
00:43:47has already given evidence
00:43:48that she carried such a purse
00:43:50in the pocket of her cardigan
00:43:52on the evening of 17th July.
00:43:55My learned friend
00:43:57has put it to the accused
00:43:58that she carried
00:44:00a half-gallon can of paraffin
00:44:02from her lodging
00:44:03to Tipskill Manor,
00:44:05presumably also
00:44:07in the pocket
00:44:07of her woolly cardigan.
00:44:09For objects like that,
00:44:11I carry a string bag.
00:44:13Really, you're all talking
00:44:14as though I were 200 years old
00:44:16and tied to a wheelchair.
00:44:17That stupid policeman
00:44:18wanted to carry me
00:44:19across a strip of garden,
00:44:21but I soon showed him
00:44:22a clean pair of heels.
00:44:24If I want to carry
00:44:25a pass light and carry it.
00:44:26Can you carry
00:44:27a half-gallon can of paraffin?
00:44:30Of course.
00:44:31Perfectly well.
00:44:32You talk as though
00:44:33I were dead.
00:44:34I can show you.
00:44:35Well, I think that would be
00:44:36the best way of arriving
00:44:37at the truth of this issue.
00:44:41This is my string bag.
00:44:43I always keep it with me
00:44:44in case there's something
00:44:46to be carried.
00:44:47Well, if you would come down
00:44:48from the witness box
00:44:49into the well
00:44:50of the court here.
00:44:51What is she going
00:44:57to carry for us?
00:44:59Might I suggest a book,
00:45:00my lord?
00:45:00Hmm.
00:45:01What's up?
00:45:04Indeed.
00:45:04Alright.
00:45:05Woo-hoo.
00:45:06Good back.
00:45:09Yu-hoo.
00:45:09He-Tim did it.
00:45:11Wait.
00:45:13Good back.
00:45:17Bye.
00:45:18Bye.
00:45:19Bye.
00:45:20Bye.
00:45:20Bye.
00:45:23Bye.
00:45:25Bye.
00:45:27Bye.
00:45:31it's heavier than the paraffin then you did carry the paraffin well of course my lord
00:45:41across my little room after mr morton had delivered it and before it disappeared i see
00:45:50miss conway accepting that you could have carried a half gallon can of paraffin to tipskill manor
00:45:57i ask you again did you do so no thank you have you any questions for this witness my lord yes
00:46:07there is one point about which i am in some confusion you say that you went back to tipskill
00:46:12manor to revisit the scenes of the happiest time of your youth and yet you have also testified that
00:46:20you disliked the house almost to the point of hatred it is quite possible to be happy in and
00:46:27ugly house and the manor was the manor was what the shell of my memories the casket which they
00:46:38were to be found that is why my lord i could never have damaged the house and that is why
00:46:45i tried to put the fire out the moment i saw it
00:46:48so
00:46:59The case of the Queen against Conway will be concluded tomorrow in the Crown Court.
00:47:29The case of the Queen against Conway will be concluded tomorrow in the Crown Court.
00:47:59The case of the Queen against Conway has pleaded not guilty to arson, having been charged with deliberately setting fire to a large empty house near Fulchester.
00:48:06She was seen on the spot just before the fire started, and just after it was lit.
00:48:11She was apparently alone.
00:48:13An empty can of paraffin was found near the fire.
00:48:16The accused bought such a can from her local grocer just before the fire, although she had never bought paraffin before and had no paraffin heater.
00:48:23The defence is now calling evidence to establish an innocent reason for the purchase of the paraffin.
00:48:28Mrs Liddell, you have been Miss Conway's landlady for a number of years.
00:48:34I don't take borders. Miss Conway is more what they call a paying guest.
00:48:41The accused has been your paying guest for how long?
00:48:44Twelve years, ever since Mr Liddell passed on.
00:48:47I was glad of the extra. Not that it's enough, really.
00:48:50In this time, have you got to know Miss Conway well?
00:48:53Oh, not intimate, really. No, I tried to be friendly, but she keeps herself to herself.
00:48:58Do you take your meals together?
00:49:00Oh, no, sir. Right from the start, I said no meals.
00:49:02So she has cooking facilities in her bed-sitting room?
00:49:05She's got a gas ring in a cupboard.
00:49:07Is your house centrally heated?
00:49:09There's gas fires in some rooms.
00:49:11In Miss Conway's room?
00:49:12She's got an electric fire.
00:49:15Did she ever make any remark to you about the electric fire or the meter?
00:49:18Oh, she was always going on about it.
00:49:19What did she say?
00:49:21Complained it was too dear.
00:49:23Complained it didn't heat the room properly.
00:49:25Did she do anything about it?
00:49:26She said she was going to get a paraffin heater.
00:49:29Did she get one?
00:49:30Oh, she looked in the shops, looked at different sorts.
00:49:33Then she went out and bought the paraffin.
00:49:35Although she had no heater yet.
00:49:36She was going to get the heater, she said.
00:49:39Did it surprise you that she had bought some paraffin before she had a heater?
00:49:43No, it was typical, getting the paraffin before the heater,
00:49:46cart before the horse, you know.
00:49:48She's always reading books from the library.
00:49:53Anything else you can think of?
00:49:55Well, she never sees anybody, never wants to see anybody.
00:49:58Like a hermit, she is.
00:49:59In fact, Miss Conway is eccentric.
00:50:01My lord, I object to my learned friendless putting a word into the witness's mouth.
00:50:06Please rephrase that question, Mr Collier.
00:50:09Yes, my lord.
00:50:11Mrs Liddell, you have said that it was quite typical of the accused to buy a half-gallon
00:50:16can of paraffin before she had a heater to put it in.
00:50:19Oh, yes, quite typical.
00:50:20And she spoke to you of her intention to buy a heater on many occasions.
00:50:24Oh, no, no, no, no about it she was.
00:50:26Thank you, Mrs Liddell.
00:50:31Mrs Liddell, did Mr Morton deliver the paraffin ordered by the accused?
00:50:37Yes, I saw it in the box with the rest in the passage.
00:50:40She never goes in.
00:50:42Nobody ever goes in.
00:50:43Nobody ever goes into Miss Conway's room?
00:50:45No, she won't have anybody in there.
00:50:47You never look in for a chat?
00:50:48Oh, I used to when she first came to live in the house, but I soon found out I wasn't welcome.
00:50:54Surely someone goes in to clean the room.
00:50:56Oh, no, sir, right from the start I said no cleaning.
00:50:58I've got enough without cleaning.
00:51:00Nobody at all, except the accused herself, ever goes into her room?
00:51:04Nobody could, even if they wanted.
00:51:06Why could they not?
00:51:07Because she keeps it locked.
00:51:09When she's in or when she's out?
00:51:10Both, sir. Always locked.
00:51:13Now, when the box of groceries arrived from Mr Morton,
00:51:16which included a can of paraffin,
00:51:19Miss Conway must have opened the door and carried the box into her room.
00:51:23No, pulled it in, sir.
00:51:25She pulls the box in with the handle of her stick.
00:51:27Then she shuts the door again and locks it.
00:51:30That's right.
00:51:31Like she was frightened of burglars.
00:51:33Did you ever see that paraffin again?
00:51:34I did not.
00:51:36Did you ever go into her room in the days or weeks after the paraffin was delivered?
00:51:40Well, I couldn't, even if I wanted to.
00:51:43You see, Mrs Adele, it has been suggested that you, uh,
00:51:46borrowed the paraffin.
00:51:48That's a wicked lie.
00:51:50Have you any paraffin heaters in your house?
00:51:52None. I don't like them. They blow over.
00:51:54You have not and never have had any appliance of any kind using paraffin?
00:51:58None.
00:51:59So you have no use whatsoever for a half-gallon can of paraffin?
00:52:04No, and even if I had, I wouldn't take hers.
00:52:06And it's a wicked black lie, her saying that I did.
00:52:08And as far as you know, the can of paraffin is still in Miss Conway's room.
00:52:12Well, as far as I know, it must be.
00:52:13Yet we have heard evidence that it is not there.
00:52:15Then she took it out. She must have.
00:52:18Because nobody else could have.
00:52:20That's right.
00:52:22Now, Mrs Adele, did the, uh, did the accused ever mention Tipskill Manor to you?
00:52:29Dozens of times.
00:52:31Ever since she first came into your house?
00:52:34Oh, no, not first off. Just this year.
00:52:37The early part of this year?
00:52:39Yes, in the summer. Beginning of the summer.
00:52:40I see.
00:52:42And what did the accused say about Tipskill Manor?
00:52:46Well, she said, now that it was empty, she could do like the Major had told her to.
00:52:52Did she say what that was?
00:52:54Yes, sir.
00:52:55Burn the house down.
00:52:58Thank you, Mrs Adele.
00:52:59I have no further questions, my lord.
00:53:05I would like to make an application, my lord.
00:53:07Yes, Mr Collier?
00:53:08To be permitted to treat this witness as hostile.
00:53:11No, Mr Collier.
00:53:13All she has done is to give evidence which, in part, is unfavourable to you.
00:53:18That does not make her in law hostile.
00:53:21You may, however, re-examine her if you wish.
00:53:24Very well, my lord.
00:53:27Mrs Liddell, do you know what the accused said when she gave her evidence?
00:53:32My friend told me what she said.
00:53:35She said I stole the paraffin.
00:53:38Your friend was in the court?
00:53:39She heard those wicked black lies and she told me about it.
00:53:42You were angry when you heard what your friend had said?
00:53:45Nobody has ever said such a thing before.
00:53:47I never took a brass farthing in my life.
00:53:50These dozens of conversations that you had with the accused about Tipskill Manor in the early summer of this year,
00:53:57however did you come to have them?
00:53:59We were living in the same house.
00:54:01But she kept herself to herself.
00:54:03She was like a hermit.
00:54:05She seldom came out of her room and you never went into it.
00:54:09Sir, I knew when I wasn't welcome.
00:54:10Then when and where did you ever come to have these conversations?
00:54:14In the passage, mostly.
00:54:16She spent all that time in the passage?
00:54:19The toilet is at the end of the passage.
00:54:21You exchanged a word or two when she passed you in the passage?
00:54:25Yes, we passed the time of day.
00:54:26Do you live in the passage?
00:54:29Has to be cleaned.
00:54:30And whenever Miss Conway went along the passage, you were there cleaning?
00:54:34I sometimes happened to be there.
00:54:37These meetings in the passage, Mrs Liddell, did they happen once a day, once a week, or did they ever happen at all?
00:54:44I was there sometimes when she came along the passage.
00:54:47And whenever that happened, she began to talk to you about Tipskill Manor?
00:54:51She did talk about it.
00:54:52She suddenly began pouring out these extraordinary threats to burn a house down.
00:54:57That's what it came to.
00:54:58Well, this was a very remarkable change in her behaviour, was it not?
00:55:02She got talkative all of a sudden.
00:55:04You must have been very surprised.
00:55:05I thought she was going round the bend.
00:55:07I see.
00:55:07You thought she had quite suddenly become unhinged, lost her reason, perhaps because of her great age.
00:55:14Well, it seemed like it, didn't it?
00:55:15I mean, all that talk about setting fire to a house.
00:55:17So you didn't take it seriously?
00:55:19Well, I wouldn't, would you?
00:55:20And you made no effort to warn anybody about it?
00:55:22It wasn't none of my business.
00:55:24An old lady who seemed to have gone mad and kept threatening to burn a house down,
00:55:29and you never thought to tell anybody about it?
00:55:32It wasn't none of my business.
00:55:34When you spoke earlier to Miss Conway's solicitors, you made no mention about these conversations,
00:55:39although you knew what Miss Conway was charged with.
00:55:43Well, why was that, Mrs. Liddell?
00:55:44Mr. Collier, I have let you get away with a great deal so far,
00:55:48but you really cannot continue to ask leading questions.
00:55:53I'm sorry, my lord.
00:55:54I was trying to avoid asking them.
00:55:57I'll rephrase the last question.
00:56:00Mrs. Liddell, when you saw Miss Conway's solicitors mention these conversations...
00:56:04No. I didn't want to get anyone into trouble.
00:56:10Oh, do you now? Is that it?
00:56:12But the truth will out.
00:56:14Will it? You said nothing to us about these amazing conversations,
00:56:18but now that you're angry, you suddenly remember them.
00:56:20Yes, I do remember them.
00:56:24Miss Conway will say that there were no such conversations, Mrs. Liddell.
00:56:27There was. As true as I stand here on my Bible oath, there was.
00:56:31No further questions, my lord.
00:56:34Do you wish to question this witness?
00:56:36Hmm.
00:56:38Mrs. Liddell, do you know what perjury is?
00:56:41Yes, my lord, and I don't intend to commit it.
00:56:45You swear the accused repeatedly told you of her intention
00:56:48to burn down Tipskill Manor now that it was empty?
00:56:52Yes, my lord.
00:56:54Very well.
00:56:56You may leave the witness box, Mrs. Liddell.
00:56:58So, Mr. Collier, you might like to recall the accused.
00:57:05Yes, my lord.
00:57:06She had better deal with Mrs. Liddell's revelations.
00:57:11You heard Mrs. Liddell's evidence.
00:57:14I am innocent of the crime of arson.
00:57:19Did you at any time say anything to Mrs. Liddell about Tipskill Manor?
00:57:23Probably did.
00:57:24Can you remember what it was that you said?
00:57:27Well, whatever it was, I remain clear that I am not guilty.
00:57:33Answer counsel's question.
00:57:35What did you say to Mrs. Liddell?
00:57:38I said that the house must be burned down.
00:57:40But you did not burn it down.
00:57:43I must repeat.
00:57:44I am innocent.
00:57:47You made the threat, but you did not carry it out.
00:57:50I am not guilty.
00:57:52I don't know how I can make myself more clear.
00:57:56Why did you say that the house must be burned down?
00:57:59Dry rot.
00:58:00It was unsafe.
00:58:02A child might have explored, gone upstairs and fallen through the floor.
00:58:05Such a thing does not bear thinking of.
00:58:07So you knew that there was dry rot in the house?
00:58:09Yes, and when dry rot takes over, fire is the only solution.
00:58:12And that was what you meant when you spoke to Mrs. Liddell?
00:58:15Well, what else?
00:58:16That was all you meant?
00:58:17I can't think of anything else.
00:58:19But you did not yourself attempt to carry out this judgment on this house?
00:58:26I am quite innocent of this charge.
00:58:30You did not merely say that Tipscoe Manor ought to be burned down, did you?
00:58:45Did I not?
00:58:46No, you said that Major Scott Godden told you to burn it down.
00:58:50It is like him to consider the safety of one rebellious child.
00:58:54So he left the house in 1914, I think.
00:58:56To rejoin his regiment, naturally.
00:58:59Sixty years ago, was the house unsafe then?
00:59:02I don't understand.
00:59:03Was it already infested with dry rot?
00:59:05Well, I think it had begun.
00:59:07The floor upstairs was safe.
00:59:09As far as I know.
00:59:10At any rate, you all went upstairs, didn't you?
00:59:12Well, it would be very inconvenient otherwise.
00:59:15Major Scott Godden did not forbid his wife and children going upstairs.
00:59:19Why should he do that? He was the most considerate of men.
00:59:22Clearly then, he did not consider the floors unsafe owing to dry rot.
00:59:25Well, not immediately, no.
00:59:27But you told us it was then, in 1914, that he told you to burn the house down.
00:59:32Ah, but he was a man of great prevision.
00:59:36I remember him coming in and telling us all, long before the Archduke was murdered,
00:59:41that there would be war with Germany.
00:59:45And he foresaw also that the house would have dry rot some 60 years later.
00:59:49That wouldn't surprise me at all.
00:59:51And for that reason, instruct you to burn it down?
00:59:54He agreed it was a very ugly house.
00:59:57Oh, he told you to burn it down because it was very ugly?
00:59:59Yes.
01:00:00Ugliness upset them both.
01:00:03Mrs. Scott Godden told me once that she was positively ill with distaste when she first saw the Albert Memorial.
01:00:09Yes, I want to know if Major Scott Godden ordered you to burn the house down because it was ugly.
01:00:15And Mrs. Scott Godden once dismissed a housemaid because she had a wen, a big wen and a very distasteful wen in her neck.
01:00:22Will you please answer Council's question?
01:00:25Oh, I'll do my very hardest to, my lord.
01:00:28You have told us, I think, that Major Scott Godden gave you instructions to burn the house down.
01:00:33Now, what I want to know is, what reason he gave you for burning the house down?
01:00:39Millicent, he said.
01:00:41Millicent is my name.
01:00:43Yes, we know your name, Miss Cumway.
01:00:46Millicent, he said.
01:00:47If you ever get the chance, burn this awful place down.
01:00:52Awful?
01:00:53He thought his own house was awful.
01:00:55Yes, well, it was very dark and impossible to keep clean.
01:00:59If you ever get the chance, burn this awful place down.
01:01:02And you took these instructions literally?
01:01:06They were the last words I ever heard him speak.
01:01:10And of course, while another family was there.
01:01:13Oh, could be no fire.
01:01:15But even the caretakers were there.
01:01:17Could be no fire.
01:01:19But when, at long last, the house was finally and permanently empty,
01:01:24you could carry out Major Scott Godden's instructions.
01:01:26Yes, I suppose I could.
01:01:29But I am not guilty of that crime.
01:01:32I have no further questions, my lord.
01:01:35Mr. Collier.
01:01:37Miss Conway, you have said firmly and most repeatedly
01:01:41that you are not guilty of this charge.
01:01:44Not guilty of the charge.
01:01:46With all the orders you received long ago from Major Scott Godden,
01:01:50and with the coincidence of the fire starting on the very evening of your visit,
01:01:54you did not start that fire.
01:01:57I am not guilty of arson.
01:02:00That is not an answer to counsel's question.
01:02:03I find it a perfectly satisfactory answer, my lord.
01:02:06You may well do so, Mr. Collier.
01:02:08I do not.
01:02:09You were asked not if you were guilty or not guilty,
01:02:13but if you started the fire.
01:02:15And I repeat, my lord, for the hundredth time,
01:02:19I am not guilty of arson.
01:02:22And I can only repeat the question which I require you to answer.
01:02:26Did you start the fire?
01:02:28Yes, my lord.
01:02:37But I am not guilty of arson.
01:02:39I told you that I knew the law,
01:02:42and you'll find out that I do.
01:02:44If a man burns down his own house,
01:02:48that is not arson.
01:02:50Tipskill Manor is your house.
01:02:53If a person burns down a house
01:02:55with the knowledge and consent of the owner,
01:02:59that is not arson.
01:03:04Major Scott Godden
01:03:05had told me to burn the house down.
01:03:11Major Scott Godden?
01:03:12Is he still alive?
01:03:13Oh, really, my lord.
01:03:15He would be over a hundred now, older than me.
01:03:17But he had four children.
01:03:19He has heirs.
01:03:21They were dutiful children,
01:03:23obedient children,
01:03:25and they would expect his wishes
01:03:28to be observed.
01:03:29The owner is in Australia.
01:03:31That doesn't surprise me at all.
01:03:34They were the children of a soldier
01:03:36and brought up to be adventuresome.
01:03:40Oh, between them all,
01:03:41they've travelled all over the world.
01:03:43My lord,
01:03:47the defendant's admission of starting the fire
01:03:50under the order of Major Scott Godden
01:03:52represents a completely different offence
01:03:55to this charge.
01:03:56I quite agree, Mr O'Connor.
01:03:58By chance,
01:03:59I'm in a position to bring forward evidence
01:04:01on the ownership of the house,
01:04:03which is entirely new.
01:04:05On the single issue
01:04:06of the ownership of Tipskill Manor?
01:04:09Yes, my lord.
01:04:10There is a person in this building
01:04:12who has knowledge of the facts.
01:04:13Very well.
01:04:17Percival Routledge,
01:04:19solicitous clerk,
01:04:20now retired.
01:04:21Yes, sir.
01:04:22From 1911 to 1932,
01:04:25I was employed by
01:04:26Woodman and Plum of this city.
01:04:28You are aware of the issue
01:04:29presently facing this court?
01:04:31Yes, sir.
01:04:32Can you tell us anything
01:04:33that sheds light on the matter,
01:04:35Mr Routledge?
01:04:36Yes, sir, I can.
01:04:37During the whole of the period named,
01:04:41Dr Clarence Tom
01:04:42was the owner of Tipskill Manor,
01:04:44placing the management
01:04:45of the property in our hands
01:04:47owing to his residence abroad.
01:04:49We were responsible
01:04:50for letting the property.
01:04:52It was let furnished
01:04:53to a succession of short tenancies,
01:04:56usually to military families.
01:04:59Can you remember,
01:05:00or have you a personal record,
01:05:01of any of these military families?
01:05:03Well, I had to look it up
01:05:04to jog my memory, sir.
01:05:06Major Scott Godden
01:05:08of the Royal Artillery,
01:05:09returning from India
01:05:10with his family,
01:05:11took Tipskill Manor
01:05:12from the 1st of March
01:05:13to the 31st of August, 1914,
01:05:17a normal furnished tenancy
01:05:19of six months.
01:05:20Was there ever any chance
01:05:22of Major Scott Godden
01:05:24purchasing the manor?
01:05:26Oh, no, sir.
01:05:27No, none at all.
01:05:28The owner would not have sold,
01:05:29and Major Scott Godden
01:05:31would certainly not
01:05:32have wished to purchase.
01:05:33How do you know that?
01:05:35Well, having looked it up,
01:05:37I remembered the Major well.
01:05:39He was a very unsatisfactory tenant,
01:05:41complained about everything.
01:05:43I'm obliged, Mr. Routledge.
01:05:46Do you wish to cross-examine,
01:05:48Mr. Collier?
01:05:49I have no questions, my lord.
01:05:53By her counsel,
01:05:54and by her own evidence,
01:05:56she was first presented to us
01:05:57as an old lady
01:05:59who was too frail
01:06:00and too helpless
01:06:01to carry even a half-gallon can
01:06:03of paraffin,
01:06:04but who still made
01:06:05a wonderfully brave attempt
01:06:07to put out the fire.
01:06:09From her own mouth,
01:06:11we now know this
01:06:12to be a tissue of lies.
01:06:14You may find something
01:06:17a little distasteful
01:06:18in the way that the accused,
01:06:20with such apparent reluctance,
01:06:22accused her landlady,
01:06:23Mrs. Liddell,
01:06:24of having stolen
01:06:25or borrowed the paraffin,
01:06:28an accusation
01:06:29which she knew
01:06:30to be totally untrue.
01:06:32And when the truth
01:06:33is at last out,
01:06:35what are we suddenly
01:06:35invited to believe?
01:06:38We are told
01:06:38that the accused
01:06:39was acting on the instructions
01:06:41of the owner
01:06:41of the property.
01:06:44The owner,
01:06:45a gentleman
01:06:46who had a six-month
01:06:47furnished tenancy
01:06:48in 1914.
01:06:50Can you believe,
01:06:52members of the jury,
01:06:52that the accused
01:06:53could possibly have thought
01:06:55that Major Scott Godden
01:06:56was really the owner
01:06:57of the house?
01:06:59Can you accept
01:07:00that a remark,
01:07:01one remark,
01:07:02made 60 years ago,
01:07:04obliged her in her mind
01:07:05to burn down
01:07:06Tipskill Manor?
01:07:09If you ever get the chance,
01:07:11burn this awful place down.
01:07:14Can you believe
01:07:14that the accused
01:07:16really took that
01:07:17as a clear order
01:07:18to burn the house down
01:07:1960 years later,
01:07:21as soon as it was empty?
01:07:23Now, you've seen
01:07:24and heard a person
01:07:25of sharp intelligence
01:07:27who's understood
01:07:28every word
01:07:30of the questions
01:07:30put to her,
01:07:32who's replied
01:07:33with skilful evasions,
01:07:35ingenious lies,
01:07:37but never,
01:07:38never with stupidity.
01:07:42Now, members of the jury,
01:07:44Miss Conway has told us
01:07:45of her childhood obsession
01:07:47with fire.
01:07:48and it is my submission
01:07:50that with old age,
01:07:53this obsession
01:07:54became so strong
01:07:55and encouraged
01:07:57by the memory
01:07:58of Major Scott Godden's
01:07:59chance remark,
01:08:00this old lady
01:08:02sets fire to the house.
01:08:06Therefore,
01:08:07you have no alternative
01:08:08but to find her guilty.
01:08:13In firmly
01:08:14and repeatedly saying
01:08:15that she is not
01:08:16guilty of the charge,
01:08:17the accused is right
01:08:19because she did believe
01:08:21that she was acting
01:08:22with the knowledge
01:08:23and consent
01:08:23of the owner.
01:08:24my learned friend
01:08:27has invited you
01:08:28to disbelieve
01:08:29the accused
01:08:30because of her
01:08:30earlier evidence
01:08:31because,
01:08:32although not guilty
01:08:33of arson,
01:08:34she thought it wiser
01:08:35to tell a believable story.
01:08:38She was wrong.
01:08:39She should have told
01:08:40the truth from the beginning,
01:08:41but that does not
01:08:42make her guilty
01:08:43of the offence
01:08:44for which she is
01:08:45standing trial.
01:08:47The onus
01:08:48is on the prosecution
01:08:49to prove
01:08:51not that the house
01:08:52was burned down,
01:08:53not that the accused
01:08:55started the fire,
01:08:57not that the house
01:08:57belongs to X, Y, or Z,
01:09:00but that the accused
01:09:01knew she was acting
01:09:03without the knowledge
01:09:04and consent
01:09:04of the owner.
01:09:06Now, I suggest
01:09:07that prosecution
01:09:08has fallen far, far short
01:09:10of proving
01:09:10any such thing.
01:09:12The only evidence
01:09:13we have
01:09:14is that
01:09:15she did think
01:09:16he was the owner
01:09:17of the house
01:09:18and that his heirs
01:09:19continue to be.
01:09:20It is true to say
01:09:22she is told
01:09:22conflicting stories.
01:09:24She was wrong.
01:09:25But she is not charged
01:09:26with telling stories,
01:09:27but with arson.
01:09:30You have heard
01:09:30counsel suggest
01:09:31that she did not
01:09:33really believe
01:09:34she was acting
01:09:34with the knowledge
01:09:35and consent
01:09:36of the owner.
01:09:37That, however,
01:09:39is only the suggestion
01:09:40of counsel,
01:09:41unsupported by
01:09:42any vestige of proof.
01:09:45You can, therefore,
01:09:47only in my submission,
01:09:48return a verdict
01:09:49of not guilty.
01:09:50The issue
01:09:52before you, then,
01:09:53is a simple one.
01:09:55Did the accused
01:09:56believe at the moment
01:09:57that she set a match
01:09:58to that house
01:09:59that the owners
01:10:00would have consented
01:10:01to what she was doing?
01:10:03If she did believe
01:10:04that, no matter
01:10:05how absurd the belief,
01:10:07then she is not guilty.
01:10:09And you must decide
01:10:10on that one point
01:10:11and that one point
01:10:13only.
01:10:14Now, the accused
01:10:15is not stupid,
01:10:17she is not senile,
01:10:18but she has not
01:10:20shown herself
01:10:20at all times
01:10:21to be a truthful witness.
01:10:23And in deciding
01:10:25whether at last
01:10:26she was telling
01:10:26the truth,
01:10:28you must be guided
01:10:28by your impressions
01:10:29of her as a witness
01:10:31and by whether
01:10:32you think that her story
01:10:33could possibly be true.
01:10:36But I must direct
01:10:37that unless you are
01:10:39satisfied beyond
01:10:40reasonable doubt
01:10:41that she did not
01:10:43believe what she
01:10:44says she believed,
01:10:45namely that the owners
01:10:46would have consented
01:10:47had they known,
01:10:49then your verdict
01:10:50must be one
01:10:50of not guilty.
01:10:52Now, members of the jury,
01:10:53would you please retire
01:10:55to consider your verdict?
01:10:57All stand.
01:11:03Members of the jury,
01:11:04will your foreman
01:11:04please stand?
01:11:06Just answer this question,
01:11:07yes or no.
01:11:07Have you reached a verdict
01:11:08on which you're all agreed?
01:11:09Yes.
01:11:10Do you find Millicent Conway
01:11:11guilty or not guilty
01:11:13of arson?
01:11:14Guilty.
01:11:14Is that the verdict
01:11:15of you all?
01:11:16Yes.
01:11:24After conviction,
01:11:25the judge called
01:11:26for a psychiatric report
01:11:27to help determine
01:11:28if the offence
01:11:29was likely to be repeated
01:11:30and to assist him
01:11:31in giving sentence.
01:11:32On the basis of the report,
01:11:33he put Millicent Conway
01:11:34on probation
01:11:35for one year.
01:11:36You can join another jury
01:11:44when our cameras return
01:11:45to bring you a leading case
01:11:46in the Crown Court.
01:11:47church.
01:11:48I love you.
01:11:51Oh, bro.
01:11:55Oh, gosh.
01:11:58Oh, boy.
01:12:01Oh, boy.
01:12:03Oh, boy.
01:12:03Oh, boy.
01:12:04Oh, boy.
01:12:06Oh, boy.
01:12:06You, and oh.
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