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00:00The judge will be sat there, the jury's going to be over there, and the defendants, they're
00:23going to be behind the screen there. But you won't be in here, you'll be in a separate
00:27room with me. Can I go out for a fag on the day? Of course you can, when there's a break.
00:35What if I need the toilet? Have I got to hold it in? If you need to stop, all you have to
00:42do is ask.
00:57Ruby is pregnant.
01:09Thirteen-year-old on the child protection register. Pregnant by a mid-thirties man with a family
01:17of his own. I can tell you his name, his address, his license plate. We can get convictions here,
01:22Maggie, if we can re-engage the girls. So you want me to help you? Yeah, we do. You
01:28never help me. Why would I do that? If a jury's not going to believe her, why are we making
01:32that assumption? Holly was fully aware that this would be the outcome. She'll be in foster
01:37care while we assess the situation. I can't do no more. You can. They're not using Amber,
01:44but they're going to use Ruby. I'm not using anyone. Nine not guilty, please. Which means
01:52nine cross-examinations. Which means nine different barristers telling these girls that every word
01:57they're saying's a lie. Are they up to it?
02:04Bye!
02:10Bye!
02:14It is mad, though.
02:20What is?
02:21What is?
02:22Court! But I won't be in the actual court on the day. I'll be in a room on my own.
02:27Yay!
02:28Come on. Let's go and get something on his keep.
02:33Oh!
02:35It's all about supporting me through the process. Well, that's what Copper kept on saying.
02:42And I can go for a fag, too.
02:45If they didn't want me to be a witness, why did they, like, beg me to do it in the first
02:52place?
02:53I don't want her doing it. It's her saying she don't want all them interviews going to waste.
02:58Mine did. Months of them.
03:02Do you know what? I really, really, really don't give a fuck.
03:07I thought I'd say hell freeze over before this got to trial.
03:22Today's going to be about swearing in the jury and Rachel, our prosecution barrister, standing
03:28up and outlining our case.
03:30Holly, you're the first witness for the Crown, so you will be called first. So, depending
03:37on what gets done today, in all likelihood, you'll be going in to start giving your evidence
03:42tomorrow.
03:43We'll need to phone Suzanne.
03:45Who's Suzanne?
03:46I have to do stuff. Go to AA meetings and that to get Ella back.
03:52And write it down if you miss one.
03:55You're not going to see any of them. You know that, don't you? It'll all be by video
04:00link. And you're just going to carry on doing what you've been doing for years. Telling
04:05the truth.
04:08And those twelve ordinary men and women are going to believe you.
04:14Right. I'll see you bright and early tomorrow.
04:17You're going down, you pucky bastard. He's the pucky bastard who brought the prosecution,
04:42you dickhead.
04:44Cheers, but don't call me a pucky bastard, do you?
04:49Sorry.
04:50All rise.
05:13All rise.
05:15All rise.
05:17Hey, it's started.
05:22It's on the BBC website.
05:25Front page of the Manchester Evening News.
05:27Jim,
05:28let's keep busy today, eh?
05:32Fancy going down shops for a few bits and bobs?
05:35I might just go upstairs.
05:36upstairs. Holly Winshaw is now 19. At the start of the time period with which you were concerned,
05:52she was 15 years old, and at the end of that period, she was 17. Ruby Bowen is now 16.
06:01Her 13th birthday was two days before the start of the indictment period,
06:06and at the end of that period, she was 15. You will hear evidence about these girls'
06:12personal circumstances and their behaviour. Holly Winshaw had fallen out with her parents
06:18and was mostly living away from home when the sexual exploitation of her began.
06:24Ruby Bowen had had a difficult and troubled childhood and has a number of problems as a result.
06:30You will have to decide, having heard their own descriptions of themselves and the descriptions
06:35of other people, whether their characters and their behaviour makes them unreliable witnesses,
06:42as some of the defendants may say. Or whether, as the prosecution say, it simply confirms
06:48that they were exactly the sort of children who were easy to identify, target and exploit
06:53for the sexual gratification of these men.
06:55Amber Bowen, the older sister of Ruby Bowen, is now 19. The prosecution will argue that she's an
07:13important person in this case. She was also having sex with adult men and getting food and alcohol for
07:18doing so. But she moved on to playing an active role in helping men, including some of these
07:23defendants, to sexually exploit the other girls. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the outline of
07:30the prosecution case that we'll put before you, starting with the first witness, Holly Winshaw,
07:34tomorrow morning.
07:35Hiya. Is she ready? I can't say she is now. Do you want to...
08:01She won't get dressed. I'm sorry. Hiya. Have you had any breakfast? Well, I've not. What are we having?
08:30Bacon boy. Two of them, then, please, Julie.
08:35The whole bloody country is waiting on this trial. And she's up there having a lie-in.
08:48Nina knows what she's doing. No point pushing her until she's ready.
08:52Where is she? Worth giving Nina, right? Uh, Andrew Norfolk from the Times. Looks like the first witness hasn't turned up. I'll phone back later.
08:57Andrew, every time I open the Times, there's your by-line on grooming.
09:04Oh. It's a big story. Is it? Is it a big story? Or does it just seem that way because there's so much
09:09reporting on it? You must admit, it's a gift for the BMP and all that like that?
09:14Innocent white victims? Dark-skinned abusers?
09:16It's uncomfortable.
09:17You must admit, it's a gift for the BMP and all that like that.
09:20It's uncomfortable, isn't it? It's uncomfortable, isn't it? I just don't see what it achieves.
09:23You must admit, it's a gift for the BMP and all that like that. Innocent white victims? Dark-skinned abusers?
09:27It's uncomfortable, isn't it? I just don't see what it achieves.
09:33She's here.
09:50She's here.
09:56Ignore them. Ignore them, ignore them, and ignore them.
10:26Take a seat.
10:47Take a seat.
10:51Take a seat.
11:12Take a seat.
11:16Take a seat.
11:20Take a seat.
11:25They need to hear you, but they don't need to see you.
11:29Would you like a curtain?
11:31No.
11:33Hello, Holly. Can you see and hear me?
11:50Yeah.
11:52Okay.
11:53That's a good start.
11:55The usher should help you to swear an oath. Has that been explained to you?
12:01Rather than gestures, Holly, you'll have to speak words for ease of the transcribers.
12:08Yeah.
12:09I swear by almighty God that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth.
12:21Members of the jury, the prosecution will now present its evidence in chief, which takes the form of recorded interviews with the witness Holly Winshaw.
12:33Now, do you understand what it is that you've come to speak to me about today?
12:42Yeah.
12:43Okay.
12:44Okay.
12:45And what do you think that's about?
12:47About what happened at him? With the men at Top Curry.
13:00About what happened with the men at Top Curry. Okay?
13:06Obviously, I've got to ask you some questions about what they actually did to you during the sex, okay?
13:13It hurt.
13:17Because I didn't want to do it.
13:21Tarek started taking us places.
13:25He started picking us up and Amber thought that he was a boyfriend.
13:31So, what did you think was going to happen when he picked you up?
13:38I didn't actually know he was taking us to have sex.
13:42He said, don't cry.
13:44And he said, you're beautiful.
13:46So, when he got on top of you, what was he doing?
13:51Oh, I tried to move.
13:54But I just gave up.
14:02Because what's the point in trying?
14:09And what did you think about the fact that I'd started then with different men?
14:15I wasn't even bothered anymore.
14:21Right, what do you mean by that?
14:24I didn't feel anything about it.
14:26Why do you think you felt like that?
14:29Because it had been going on for so long.
14:32I want to ask you some questions today on behalf of Shabbir Ahmed, who you were introduced to by a nickname, Daddy.
14:53Before I ask you about what you say Daddy did, I want to ask you something about your background.
15:02What caused the big falling out you had with your parents in around June 2008?
15:09I didn't really stick to the rules.
15:12And you were going out with a gang of girls at night, were you not?
15:17Yeah.
15:18You were freeloading, were you not?
15:21Getting free booze, so alcohol and money.
15:26Yeah.
15:27And then mocking them.
15:30Creating problems in Speedy Kebab and Top Curry.
15:34I wouldn't say that I was creating problems.
15:36Was there not a crowd of you that was going to Speedy Kebab, drunk and loud and behaving very badly?
15:45There wasn't a crowd of us.
15:48There was about two or three at a time.
15:50And it was the men in the takeaway shop that bought us the alcohol to get drunk on.
15:53I want you to understand that I am going to be suggesting that Daddy never gave you or bought you any alcohol at all over that period or any other time.
16:06That is the truth of the matter, is it not?
16:08No.
16:09You told the police that when he was trying to rape you, you were trying to, like, laugh it off, giggling and saying no. Is that right?
16:27Well, yeah, I was trying to say no in, like, a giggly way.
16:34Cos I didn't want to say it in, like, a stern way, cos I didn't want to offend him.
16:42And I was scared.
16:46Cos if I said it, like, nastily to him, I didn't know what he would do, so I just, like...
16:55I just need to stop.
17:05Have you got a tissue there, Holly?
17:11Thanks.
17:12Had you not tried to shout for help if this was happening?
17:27You were being raped.
17:29I didn't want to say anything cos I was scared.
17:33This incident did not happen, did it, Holly?
17:37Yeah, it did.
17:39You say that you were shouting, get off me.
17:43Yeah.
17:44It could not be the case that what you were actually shouting was, tell that bastard to give me my money.
17:50No.
17:51No.
17:52Because that would suggest, would it not, that what you were upset about was not being paid rather than the sex.
17:58Do you remember calling my client a packy bastard?
18:02I wouldn't.
18:03I wouldn't say something like that.
18:05I suggest to you, Miss Winshaw, that at the time of these events, your life was a bit of a mess, was it not?
18:11You were out getting drunk regularly, were you not?
18:14Yeah.
18:15And you had been in so many different places on so many nights with so many different men that you simply made a mistake.
18:24Did you not?
18:25No.
18:26Can you describe the man you call Tiger to me, Holly?
18:29You said, he's Asian, obviously.
18:32He's got like a side parting in his hair.
18:35Like a lot of them, small.
18:39I think that's his height you're talking about there, is it not?
18:43Not long to go now.
18:59You're doing great.
19:00Just hold your nerve for one more day.
19:13You're beautiful.
19:28When are you going to let me have sex with you?
19:31I'm not.
19:35You're going with him.
19:38You're going with him.
19:40Holly, you're going with him.
19:42No.
19:43No.
20:12I'm the barrister for Abdulaziz, who you knew as Tariq.
20:13Of all the girls you knew who were conducting that sort of lifestyle, without doubt, you were the prettiest.
20:25You know, much prettier than Amber.
20:26Are you not?
20:27Yes.
20:28Yes, well, I will spare your blushes and we can deal with this in a different way.
20:59You know, Amber Bowen.
21:00She was the one who introduced you to this lifestyle that you complain of.
21:09Yes, she was.
21:10She was the one who introduced you to the men that you complain of, yes?
21:13Yes.
21:14Yeah.
21:15And she was the one who was getting payments for the men that you make these complaints
21:20against.
21:21Yes, she was, but some of them were getting, um...
21:26Some of the men were getting payments as well.
21:28So in the scheme of things, Amber was worse than the men that you accuse.
21:34At any rate, she was no less culpable than the men that you accuse.
21:37How do you mean?
21:39That she was at least as bad as they were.
21:41In some ways.
21:43In other ways, they were worse.
21:45If I've understood your evidence correctly, Holly, is that you would go to an address knowing
21:52that sex was about to take place.
21:55Sex would take place.
21:56Amber would collect money.
21:59Tariq would be called.
22:01He would collect you and Amber, and money would be given to Tariq.
22:04Is that what happened?
22:06Yeah.
22:07Yes.
22:08So it was Amber who was controlling the arrangement.
22:12It was Amber who was arranging sex.
22:14It was Amber who was arranging transport.
22:16I think it were both of them together.
22:18And that is because...
22:20Because if it were just her doing it, why would she give him the money?
22:27The reality is this, is it not, Holly?
22:30That you feel profoundly very guilty about what's gone on.
22:35I don't feel guilty because I didn't do anything wrong.
22:38It may just be that I've read your evidence badly, but you do say, at a number of places, that you feel guilty.
22:47Because you didn't stand up for yourself.
22:50You did not defend your corner.
22:52Yeah, I didn't.
22:53And I feel ashamed.
22:55And I feel angry that I didn't try more.
23:09Because obviously, at my age, a few years later, if something like that would happen again, I would do everything in my power to make sure it wouldn't happen again.
23:25So now you feel ashamed.
23:28Guilty for what's gone on.
23:30Yes?
23:31I don't feel guilty.
23:32I feel ashamed.
23:33And you've been the subject, over the years, of ridicule for this lifestyle that you entered with Amber.
23:39People were calling your names.
23:41And this is a way, really, of just cleansing all of that.
23:46Of saying to them that, you know what, in fact, I've got nothing to be ashamed of because I was raped.
23:53That's what this is really all about.
23:55Is it not?
23:56I don't care about them.
23:59I don't care about what people say.
24:02It's four years later now.
24:05Four years.
24:07I've got a daughter.
24:10I've got a life.
24:13I don't need cleansed.
24:16I want justice.
24:26I want justice.
24:40No one's not.
24:43I've got justice.
24:44Oh, no.
24:45Fuck.
24:46Fuck.
24:47I want justice.
24:49Fuck.
24:50I want justice.
24:51I want justice.
24:52I want justice.
24:53Do I look all right?
25:09Oh, really nice.
25:12Have a snack.
25:13I'm going to go wait on you.
25:14OK.
25:16Police will be here in five minutes.
25:18Why don't you go for a walk around Block if you don't want to see them?
25:20No, I don't care.
25:22He's just going to make you angry.
25:24It'll upset you, and that'll upset her.
25:26No, it won't.
25:28I don't care if they've decided I'm not a good enough victim or whatever.
25:35Because I'm a good mum.
25:39I'm actually good.
25:42That's where my head's going.
25:44Not on all this that happened years ago.
25:46I'm just going to whip it off.
25:51I love you.
25:53I love you.
25:54I love you.
25:54I love you.
25:55I love you.
25:56I love you.
25:57I love you.
25:59All rise.
26:29Go on, Ruby.
26:41They pass you around like a ball.
26:43They, like, get your number and then there's, like, 50 people you don't know ringing you.
26:54What do you mean, Ruby?
26:56They pass you around like a ball.
26:58They, like, be in a flat, in a massive circle, and then they put the white girl in the middle,
27:14and then you get sent off of one of them, and then when you come back, you just, just
27:23get past and past again.
27:26And where was the first?
27:30And where was the first?
27:33There weren't one.
27:36There were loads.
27:38There were loads.
27:41There were loads.
27:43There were loads.
27:47Ruby, can you see me all right?
28:00Yeah.
28:01And can you hear me okay?
28:02Yes.
28:03I am the barrister who is helping the man that you call Billy.
28:06And I'd like to ask you a few questions for him, please.
28:09Now, you told us you were in a relationship with Billy for a few months and that he was
28:14your boyfriend, yes?
28:15Yes.
28:17And that you told him you were 16?
28:22Yeah.
28:24And as time went on, you felt like you were in love with him, did you not?
28:30Hmm.
28:33You're nodding.
28:34And did it seem like he really liked you a lot as well?
28:39Yeah.
28:40Now then, when you have talked about when you have been with Billy and you have had sex
28:47with him, you have talked about cuddling up with him, having a laugh and having nice sex,
28:54have you not?
28:59Yeah.
29:01And that Billy, he was different from the other men that you met.
29:07Because you told us the other men, they were one night stands.
29:13Whereas Billy, he was a proper boyfriend, yes?
29:24Um.
29:25Yeah.
29:26Yeah.
29:31Yeah.
29:32I have no more questions.
29:46Baby.
29:56You met Ruby Bowen before your son was born, is that right?
30:14Yes.
30:15And you had a sexual relationship with her from October 2008, is that right?
30:20Yes.
30:21Two photographs in the jury bundle were taken when Ruby Bowen was in year nine.
30:28That is the girl with whom you had a sexual relationship, is it not?
30:34I don't deny the fact from looking at the picture that that's the same girl.
30:38These photographs were taken when she was 13 and 14. Are you seriously saying to this jury that you thought she was 20 to 25 years old?
30:51Mr. Ahmed, do you deny all of the allegations?
30:56I deny everything.
30:58But you accept, as you've told this jury, that the forensic evidence has your semen on those items of underwear.
31:05Oh.
31:06Where did Holly Winshaw get your semen from?
31:10I had a sexual relationship with Amber.
31:13And if Amber took a condom, this Winshaw girl, very clever, very sharp, intelligent, knows everything.
31:21Who knows what she did?
31:23Why would Holly fabricate evidence against you?
31:26They get into this business together.
31:29They decide on this joint venture together.
31:32And they carry it out very well.
31:34They're making a lot of money.
31:36And then she falls out with Amber and...
31:41Very nice and very easy for policemen.
31:44Because they want to climb the ladder of their career.
31:47Fuck the Pakistanis!
31:48Mr. Ahmed, can we stick to...
31:50No.
31:51No.
31:52We can't.
31:53Where are your white people?
31:56They train them in sex.
31:58They train them in drinking from a very young age.
32:01And when they come to us, by that time, they're fully trained.
32:05You should look in the mirror.
32:07Look at yourself first.
32:09Look at your community.
32:11Where's school?
32:13Where's social services?
32:15Where is everybody else?
32:18I feel lovely we're there.
32:35How do you see your future together?
32:39I'd like to go to college.
32:43I'd like to move away from Rochdale.
32:46Does that feel achievable?
32:50Yeah.
32:58We'll not keep you in suspense any longer, Holly.
33:00We're going to keep a care order in place,
33:02but we'll have joint responsibility with you.
33:06What does that mean?
33:08Ella's going to be coming home to you.
33:10We want it to be a smooth transition for her, so we'll liaise with the foster family and start making arrangements next week.
33:23Sorry.
33:24You've worked really hard, Holly.
33:27We've got every confidence in you.
33:34In a complex case like this one where we'd expect the jury to be out for some weeks,
33:39this briefing is an opportunity for members of the press to ask any questions that may have arisen during trial.
33:44Yeah, over here, yeah.
33:45Why didn't the CPS prosecute this case in 2008, when Holly Winshaw first went to the police?
33:52At that time, it was considered that there was an unrealistic prospect of conviction.
33:57What changed?
33:59The key evidence used in this trial you had in 2008.
34:04The perpetrators were allowed to continue offending for a further two years.
34:09Why did the CPS drop the case?
34:11Is there an issue around the ethnicity of the perpetrators?
34:14There was an issue around the witness, not the perpetrators.
34:17What happened is that initially, a CPS lawyer formed the view that the witness would not be credible.
34:26That's why the case didn't progress to court.
34:30I came here last year and I reversed that decision.
34:33I looked at it afresh and I formed a different view, that she was absolutely credible.
34:40Mr Afzal, would you say that Holly Winshaw was betrayed?
34:44I have no difficulty in apologising to her.
34:46She was let down by the whole system and we were part of that system.
34:50Let her seela!
34:57The Rikke!
34:59The Rikke!
35:00The Rikke!
35:01Quick! Quick! Quick!
35:04The Rick! The Rick! The Rick!
35:14Quick! Quick! Quick!
35:19She decided to dress herself this morning.
35:23In case you're wondering why she's got on that hat.
35:28Mama.
35:32Hello.
35:34Hello.
35:52Will the foreman please stand?
35:56Have the jury reached a verdict on any count?
35:58Yes.
36:00On the charge of trafficking within the United Kingdom for sexual exploitation, do you find the defendant Shabir Ahmed guilty or not guilty?
36:12Guilty.
36:13You're a biased jury.
36:15Racist!
36:16On the charge of rape of a child, do you find the defendant Shabir Ahmed guilty or not guilty?
36:23Guilty, you bastard.
36:25You bastard!
36:26Take him out!
36:27Take him to the cells.
36:28Harami!
36:29You bastard!
36:30Get the hands off me!
36:32Harami!
36:34Kabir Hassan.
36:38On the count of rape of a child, do you find the defendant guilty or not guilty?
36:44Guilty.
36:45Abdul Aziz.
36:46Abdul Rauf.
36:47Abdul Rauf.
36:48Guilty.
36:49Muhammad Sajid.
36:50Guilty.
36:51Guilty.
36:52Muhammad Amin.
36:54Guilty.
36:56Adil Khan.
36:58On the count of conspiring to engage in sexual activity with a child, do you find the defendant guilty or not guilty?
37:04Guilty.
37:05Abdul Aziz.
37:06Abdul Aziz.
37:09On the count of trafficking within the United Kingdom for sexual exploitation, do you find the defendant guilty or not guilty?
37:16Guilty.
37:18On the count of rape of a child, do you find the defendant guilty or not guilty?
37:23Guilty.
37:28Would you watch her for this?
37:30I'm under it.
37:31I'm under it.
37:32I'm under it.
37:34I'm under it.
37:35I'm under it.
37:36PHONE RINGS
37:39Alright?
37:40Alright?
37:42Dunno, yeah.
37:43Depends what you're gonna say next.
37:45I'm gonna say guilty.
37:48Every single one of them involving you.
37:51Guilty.
37:55You there?
37:58What's your mind?
38:01I called your house.
38:04Your mum said you were here.
38:08You can't tuck it in, can you?
38:13Neither can I.
38:15I don't feel anything.
38:16You will too.
38:17You'll be batting Elly, making some pasta, watching telly.
38:22And it's gonna hurt you.
38:23Like, fuck, this actually happened.
38:26Like, fuck, I actually did this.
38:30It were you, Ollie.
38:32It were you speaking up again and again and again
38:36to me and to your dad and to the police
38:39and holding your own against nine bloody barristers.
38:41It was you.
38:42It was you.
38:43It was you.
38:44It was you.
38:45Nineteen.
38:46Nineteen.
38:47Nineteen years.
38:48It's a pyramid.
38:49Nineteen years.
38:50It's a pyramid.
38:51Nineteen years.
38:52It's a pyramid.
38:53Nineteen years.
38:54It's a pyramid.
38:55Nineteen years.
38:56It's a pyramid.
38:57Sorry.
38:58I'm sorry.
38:59Nineteen years.
39:10It should be around it.
39:14Nineteen years.
39:18Sorry.
39:22I'm sorry.
39:29I had all these ideas about you since you were that high.
39:36What you were going to be, what you were going to do and all that.
39:40And how people would say, oh, Jim's daughter, yeah, the smart one.
39:45She's gone on to do this, that and the other.
39:47Jim.
39:49Seeing you do what you've done over them months in court.
39:56Finding the strength to do what you did in there.
40:00After everything you've been through.
40:02After everything that's happened to you.
40:11That's the proudest moment of my life.
40:19I have got so much respect for you.
40:22I'll take my heart off to you.
40:29I'll take my heart off to you.
40:29You are so messy.
40:41You are so messy. I'm gonna get a cloth to wipe that up.
41:11This has been a fantastic result for British justice. These victims have been through the most horrendous of crimes, and I just want to commend their bravery in relation to the ordeal they've had to go through.
41:27A long number of weeks in court, and they've had to go through a lot of trauma.
41:32I would also like to thank my officers for the professionalism and dedication they have shown in a very complex inquiry.
41:42This is the first time in UK history that we've had trafficking within the UK.
41:53I've gone down 60% since the verdict, because people would rather wait for a white driver than getting me a cab.
42:00That's why we set up this group, to bring the people of Rochdale together.
42:05This is a great place to live, and it's time now to focus on the positive.
42:10People in the community must have known what was going on.
42:13Are you saying that I knew about this? No, what I'm saying is...
42:16Because believe me, if I had, I would have rounded them up myself and took them down to the police station myself.
42:20I see the people that won't get into your cab now, that's just racist.
42:23That's them saying that all Pakistanis is the same. Ethnicity is not an issue here.
42:28It's not an issue, it's a fact. The vast majority of sex offenders are white male.
42:3590% are British white males acting on their own.
42:39But in this particular type of crime, on-street grooming of vulnerable girls,
42:45it's overwhelmingly British Pakistani men acting together.
42:49Right, and that's my responsibility, is it? Because I'm a British Pakistani too.
42:53I'm not a white people.
42:54Never asked to account for the deviant behaviour of all the white people.
42:58No.
42:59It isn't about whether the guys that did it are Pakistani.
43:02It's what the hell was a 13 year old girl doing in that flat.
43:05You're blaming the victim.
43:07That victim could have been your sister, or your daughter.
43:10No, because my sister or my daughter, our daughters, aren't hanging about on street corners in short skirts with their chests hanging out.
43:16They were in tracky bottoms. These girls were in school uniform. These men had disgusting attitudes towards women. And not just white women. All women.
43:26That is a tiny, tiny proportion of British Pakistanis.
43:29I know. But as long as that attitude exists at all, here, in Rochdale, in our community, there'll be repercussions for all of us.
43:46Now, as you may have heard in the news, the Rochdale Borough Safeguarding Children Board has published its report this morning on the catalogue of failures in the police and social services,
43:56which led to the continued grooming and rape of a number of girls.
44:01The report is very clear about the failings from all the organisations involved with the young people.
44:07There was more that could and should have been done to protect them.
44:10But the Guardian reports this morning that 83 referrals were made by a worried NHS sexual health team, who had obviously seen these girls.
44:22Why were they ignored and why are they not in your report?
44:25When professionals have got concerns and they're not getting the response that they need, there is a board policy that says that should be escalated within their own organisation and within social care.
44:36And that wasn't done satisfactorily, obviously.
44:39What's the matter with you?
44:42Driving in.
44:43I just heard someone from Watchdale Council safe building children on the radio.
44:48Hmm.
44:50Saying what? Have they learnt lessons? Have they been on a journey?
44:54There is no spin on earth they can put on this to make themselves look good.
44:57They're saying we never shared information.
45:04What?
45:06We didn't escalate our concerns.
45:09They're saying they didn't know.
45:12Because we didn't tell them.
45:13No way.
45:15No way.
45:17No way this is happening.
45:18And management's not going to bat for us.
45:20She's saying, oh don't we make it Sarah.
45:22Truth will come out at some point.
45:25Right, we're going to the union.
45:31I feel like I'm going mad.
45:34It's not you, it's everybody else.
45:37That's what mad people think.
45:41Well you do look a bit...
45:43It's the hood.
45:45Let's take the hood down.
45:48I'm not calling for this, you know.
45:50Whistle blowing.
45:51Erin Brockovich in an anorak.
45:55Erin Brockovich could have done with an anorak.
45:59Seven years.
46:04I've been telling people for seven years.
46:09And even now they just don't want to know.
46:11Sir, I watched the ACC on the steps of the court tie it up in a bow.
46:24Well, it was a very successful operation, Maggie.
46:26But that's not the whole story, is it?
46:30Well, you can be sure that whatever went on down in Rochdale in 2008 will be fully dealt with by the IPCC.
46:37Yeah, but I'm talking about 2005.
46:38GMP has known that they have a problem with on-street grooming since 2005, at least.
46:39And, erm...
46:40GMP has known that they have a problem with on-street grooming since 2005, at least.
46:42And, erm...
46:43GMP has known that they have a problem with on-street grooming since 2005.
46:45And, erm...
46:46GMP has known that they have a problem with on-street grooming since 2005, at least.
47:06least and I know because I was part of a of a scoping exercise in 2005 to see
47:17whether or not we had a problem in Greater Manchester with child grooming
47:22and it found that we did but nothing was done about it the investigation was
47:29dropped there were no arrests there were no prosecutions sorry Maggie is that a
47:41question or grievance I'm not comfortable with what we're claiming we knew and
47:49didn't know and I'm not comfortable with the way that we're treating victims I
47:56wasn't comfortable in 2005 and I'm not comfortable now is this about Amber
48:02Bowen this is about the ethics of subjecting vulnerable witnesses to months
48:07of questioning and then dropping them with no explanation and no further action
48:13against anyone that they've named
48:17Amber Bowen is a very particular case no she wasn't she was a victim just like the
48:25other girls but no one was ever arrested or even interviewed in relation to what
48:31they did to her
48:37look I know you've had this explained here many times before but not in a way that
48:43makes me feel any better about the decision but I will go over it with you
48:48again there was no way that girl was going in the witness box CPS was
48:55absolutely clear about that and it was their call to make but they then realized a
49:06little bit late in the day it must be said that they needed the girls evidence so
49:12they had to find a tactical way to introduce it at trial how do you use
49:18someone's evidence if you don't call them as a witness
49:21by putting them on the indictment Amber was named as one of the co-conspirators with the men
49:32what it was purely tactical Margaret no one was interested in prosecuting her
49:39does she know about this has anyone even bothered to tell her I'm sure she was kept fully informed
49:47all right
49:56what's all this
50:00can you just take it
50:01what was it
50:02no help me
50:04what's happened
50:05what's wrong with you
50:08they're trying to take her
50:13you are who's trying to take her
50:15social services they call me and they're trying to get a cart date
50:18don't be soft they can't outdo that
50:20well fella you're brilliant mum
50:23what are they saying you've done
50:24no they're not saying I've done out they're saying there's a risk that I could though
50:27as if I'd do anything to hurt her
50:30why me mum why is it always me
50:34yeah
50:39don't open it mum don't
50:41it might be Ruby
50:42no it's not Ruby Ruby's got keys
50:44no it is
50:45please
50:46mum
50:47it's okay
50:48it's okay
50:49they're gone
50:53they're gone
50:55they're gone
50:58Mona it's Maggie
51:01it's Margaret Oliver
51:03what are you doing
51:11coming here
51:13now
51:14you didn't return me calls
51:15you didn't reply to me texts
51:16you promised all sorts
51:18I shouldn't know them to trust the police
51:21I'm not the police
51:22then why are you tearing up here then
51:24because no one can tell me not to
51:26I've left GMP
51:29I've resigned
51:31I
51:38I
51:39I
51:40I don't know what the police told you about why you didn't get to go to court
51:45I don't care
51:46I don't give a shit about that no
51:48they didn't say nothing just they're using Ruby but they're not using her
51:52that decision I strongly disagreed with it but I got taken off the job after that and ordered not to have any contact with you but at some point the powers that be decided that though they weren't gonna call you as a witness they still needed to be able to use your evidence and as a way of doing that you were named by the crown on one of the charges and you were named by the crown on one of the charges and you were named by the crown on the
52:09what you mean the crown listed you alongside the men on a charge of conspiracy to engage in sexual activity with the child what that means is that you were
52:21charges. What do you mean? The Crown listed you alongside the men on a charge of conspiracy
52:30to engage in sexual activity with the child. What that means is that you were as responsible
52:39as the men for what happened to Holly and Ruby and all the other girls. So they're
52:51calling me a rapist. Is that what you're saying? They're calling me a paedophile. That's why
53:03this is happening. Why what's happening? Don't tell her. Don't tell her nothing. They're trying
53:08to take Yasmin off her. Why? Why? Why? Of course they want to take her off me. Not because of
53:17what I've done to her just because of me. Who I am. What's happened to me. And they never
53:27could. But now I've been named as a fucking sex offender. I have got no chance. Well that's
53:34not going to happen. First thing tomorrow you're going to go and get a solicitor and I'm going
53:38to come with you. Why do you care? Why are you even here? Because I let you down. I gained
53:48your trust and I promised you things and I betrayed you. It was me you trusted. It was
53:58me. You poured your heart out too. And I'm sorry. Because that's not how you treat people.
54:10That's not why I became a police officer. And I couldn't help you as a police officer. But
54:26maybe I can help you now. Why? Because you need it. And because you deserve it. And
54:37when it all comes out, what's been done to girls like you, and it will, I want to look back
54:52and say I was on the right side of it.
55:22Do you think the failure in Rochedale was due to incompetence or indifference? And this
55:36is a select committee and I know you will answer frankly, Ms. Robotham. It was attitudes
55:40towards teenagers. It was absolute disrespect that vulnerable young people did not have a
55:48voice. That they were overlooked. That they were discriminated against. And they were treated
55:55appallingly by protective services. See, I think we need an absolute shift in what constitutes a
56:04reliable witness. Now, as I've already explained, those young people do not present as clear-cut
56:13victims. They don't clearly state, you know, I am being abused. They are absolutely entrenched
56:24in a horrible set of manipulation and coercion. They are living in absolute fear. So they won't
56:33easily fit a box that allows a judicial system to easily see that this is a child that is being
56:42abused.
57:12I am.
57:13I am.
57:14I am.
57:15I am.
57:16I am.
57:17I am.
57:18I am.
57:19I am.
57:20I am.
57:21I am.
57:22I am.
57:23I am.
57:24I am.
57:25I am.
57:26I am.
57:27I am.
57:28I am.
57:29I am.
57:30I am.
57:31I am.
57:32I am.
57:33I am.
57:34I am.
57:35I am.
57:36I am.
57:37I am.
57:38I am.
57:39I am.
57:40I am.
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