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'House of Dynamite' director of photography Barry Ackroyd sat down with THR's Scott Roxborough for a discussion about the film in a THR Q&A powered by Vision Media.
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00:00Hi and welcome to another edition of THR Presents. I'm Scott Roxbro, European Bureau Chief at the
00:10Hollywood Reporter and I'm coming to you from the beautiful Polish city of Turin for the Camera
00:16Image Film Festival and I'm speaking today with Barry Ackroyd, the cinematographer of the nuclear
00:24real-time attack thriller, House of Dynamite, directed by Catherine Bigelow and now screening
00:31on Netflix. Barry, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. Maybe just briefly to set the scene
00:37for this film, it's not a true story but a really frighteningly plausible story where a nuclear
00:44missile has been launched, it's in the air targeting an American city on the American mainland and it's
00:50sort of ticking time bomb type of movie where the people in charge, the US security and government
00:57have 18 minutes to figure out can we stop this, who did it, who shot this at us and should we respond
01:03and how. And it's incredibly intense movie, I mean this is your third film that you did, you've shot
01:10with Catherine Piccolo, you have made, you know, Detroit was an incredibly intense movie, Hurt Locker of
01:21course an incredibly intense movie but I would suggest this film is probably the most unrelenting movie
01:26that you and Catherine have done together, you really don't let up from beginning to end. What
01:31was sort of the first conversations you had with Catherine about what you wanted to do with this film
01:36and the approach you wanted to take to tell this story? Conversations with Catherine is interesting,
01:41I mean, you know, she only has to ask and the team, the team of people, the whole team of people
01:47that she would prefer to work with will be there, you know, it's that kind of relationship. So, but
01:56and then the discussion is, well we've worked together actually all but four because we did a
02:01we did a TV pilot that never got shown but it's just another story. But we, so we work together a lot
02:09and we, we understand each other's vocabulary and how to, how to make this kind of film. You know,
02:17it's also been a genre that I've used throughout, you know, I've got films, other directors which,
02:25which can, you know, precede this and, and, and run side by side with this as that, this kind of style
02:32of filmmaking. And I think Catherine is a big influence on that, on me and she'll say sometimes
02:38the other way around that I influence her but it's about finding that rhythm and, and meaning to the
02:46story. So the first thing is to get to know the locations, the meaning and of course the scripts and
02:54that's, that's the, that's how I begin, you know. So because yeah, because in this, this film takes
02:59place in real places, you recreate the, the Washington Situation Room, the bunker, the very security
03:06complexes. How did you go about doing that? Because I assume Washington doesn't do public tours of,
03:12of its nuclear bunkers. Not the bunkers, no. But we, I've done two films, different films I've done.
03:19We did do a tour of the White House, so not, you know, not, one was more visual about the
03:26above ground and we did do a little piece where we went underground. And I know that
03:32Jeremy Hindle and, and Catherine designed, the designer and Catherine also got to go
03:38to see some of these facilities and that's where they, either through photography that there was,
03:44that would show something like a president in a, in this room, they reconstructed it,
03:50like a brick by brick.
03:51And why is that important? Why is that sort of that level of sort of millimeter,
03:55level of detail and authenticity important for, for telling a story like this?
04:00It's a question that because
04:04when, I think when you look at the subject we're talking about,
04:07and if you, if it's a fantasy, that's fine. If it was a science fiction film, but, but when you're
04:15making a film which is representing reality, then I think the detail is important. If, right from
04:23the words spoken, the script, and, and the look of the film and the feel of the film and the setting.
04:32So when the actors come in, they walk literally into the space that they would have been in,
04:38in, in, if they were playing, if they were the real deal, you know, so that's.
04:43All right. And do you, um, uh, is it a challenge to create sort of an exciting dynamic within what
04:48can be quite ugly buildings and rooms? Because Situation Room is not a, not a visually attractive,
04:53uh, attractive building and most of the places that you're shooting here are not actually visually
04:57attractive. Is that a challenge to make it dynamic, exciting and actually a pleasant to look at?
05:01I'm glad you noticed. Yeah, those buildings are very, uh, yeah, government buildings don't tend to be
05:08attractive. Uh, not intentionally. I mean, you know, they, they're probably trying to make
05:13some places look really cool, you know, but, um, it's often lighting is really, um, industrial,
05:22functional and not very attractive. So that was one of the challenges from a cinematic
05:28point of view that we had to try and make these kind of, sometimes ugly spaces because we built
05:36the whole thing and there was the ceiling and the walls and the, the windows, the glass windows
05:41internally, but no daylight, no exterior because they're all down in, uh, secure places, let's say.
05:48And that would be, uh, so that was, uh, that was a kind of challenge and technically it was very hard
05:55to introduce more filmic light, you know, bringing in softer light maybe, and because everything would
06:02be reflected all over the world. So we, um, but we did, we managed, we managed it. It's a, you know,
06:09and I, I've, uh, you know, in the past I've heard, you know, a description of the style of filmmaking as
06:17either plain, ugly, beautiful or plain beautiful, you know, so ugly, beautiful is good for me because
06:24it feels real. Right. And you do really interesting things with this film, uh, that, uh, I say it's a
06:30real time thriller and it is, but it's not like a film like fail safe, which goes beginning to end
06:34with the clock. You reset the clock twice and replay the same situation, the same sort of 18
06:39minutes, uh, from a different perspective. And what I find really fascinating is that you change
06:44the film language each time, each sort of chapter, the way you move the camera, the, the, the style
06:49of filmmaking changes. Can you take me through that a bit? What was the, the choices sort of,
06:53what did you want to do with each chapter and how did you go about sort of capturing different
06:57film language for each chapter? Okay. I mean, I'd like to tell you that I, I set up all these kind of
07:02very complex and clever ideas about how we would change this and maybe the colour of this or whatever,
07:07you know, that kind of thing. But my approach is much more like responding to what go is in the
07:14situation. And, uh, and, uh, and as you know, when you've seen the film, uh, motion is, uh, a really
07:23important thing to me. It's like a sculptural element that we, we could, we add to the film, uh,
07:30and, uh, uh, and makes for a very, from, from my point of view, this is what I understand. From my point
07:36of view, it makes it a very, uh, visceral and observational film. So that was, it was the level of
07:43observation I was probably, uh, that feels like a different change of mood because we, you know,
07:51we have this three, like you said, three sections. They all had to, they, they were all different
07:59because that was the point of having three sections. So, you know, so when you started for
08:04Grealish out in the, uh, it's, uh, it's actually up in, um, uh, Alaska. So yeah, it's cold and it's
08:13military and it's an outpost. So probably that comes across. Then you go to the more industrial,
08:20more military and, uh, kind of, and civilians working these places on military and civilians.
08:29And then finally with the president. Yeah. So. Right. And, and the, yeah, the, the sort of that
08:33is sort of, in some ways, broadly speaking though, the, the style changes a bit, it goes from like
08:37this, some of these exteriors and then goes into these, you know, interior bunkers and then gets
08:40even tighter and closer in the end, you're basically in the armored vehicle, the beast with, uh, with the
08:46president. Yeah. Um, and it seems to me that stylistically you're moving from being the first
08:51opening section is just completely kinetic, uh, in the cameras moving all the time. It's very sort of
08:56exciting, jittery, and then it seems to slow down and get more sort of intense. And I assume that was,
09:01that was, that was intentional. It is intentional and it, it, but it definitely comes from the,
09:06the situation, you know, I mean, you know, with the, the, who are the first people to, to identify
09:13the problem? And of course they're, they're very calm and professional and go about it. But I'm, I'm,
09:23I'm responding to the, the level of anxiety that's under the, underneath that, that's, you know,
09:30it's like, uh, you know, thinking that, uh, okay, we can deal with this, but if we don't deal with
09:36this, this, this could be a problem and it's our responsibility. And these are young kids,
09:42right? They're military, uh, trained and, you know, and, and they do exercises apparently constantly
09:49and they, you know, they know what they're going to do. But when it comes to the reality of it,
09:54what happens, you know, and, uh, I suppose that's the drama of that section is we're the ones
10:02responsible for the whole next 20 minutes of, of whatever happens in our country. Yeah. So that's
10:10the idea. Yeah. And then by the time you get to the president, um, it's sort of essentially almost
10:16just one man making the decision and you're closed to have one space with this one, one man who has to
10:21decide essentially the fate of the world. Yeah. And there's a beautiful, uh, a line that, uh,
10:27often films have a kind of a pivotal line. And it's the president saying, this, this is insanity.
10:36And of course the general gets back and said, no, sir, this is reality. And you know, that, that is the,
10:43that's kind of like the pivotal point of the, of the film, you know, like we, we don't list,
10:49we don't believe this could happen. We kind of forgotten the fact that we were surrounded by
10:55intercontinental ballistic missiles, but we've, we kind of put that to the back of our agenda.
11:02And that's what the film is trying to tell people, you know, it's like, just remember that it's not
11:08as, it's not as, make your own decision. I'm not going to tell you, you just have to make your own
11:15decision what you think about the film. Yeah. Yeah. But it does feel like, yeah, I was thinking
11:19about this because, um, uh, mentioned Detroit, which is based on a, uh, that you made with
11:23Catherine Bigelow, which is a true story or based on true story. Um, and you've made, uh, you made
11:28mention to films like a United 93, uh, Captain Phillips, which are true stories. Um, you've come in
11:34some ways as a sort of a go-to guy for, uh, capturing actual real life and making, or putting on the big screen.
11:40I'm wondering, you started with documentaries, right? Documentary filmmaking. And you spent many
11:44years working with the great social realist, uh, Ken Loach. Um, how do you think that experience
11:49shaped how you approach, uh, these types of stories? And for a story like this, which is,
11:54as I say, isn't true, but I would say it feels real, feels actually fully realistic.
11:59And I mean, that's the, that is the connection. That's the link is because, um, that is how I
12:04see the world. Because I, like I said, I worked for many years, probably hundreds of documentaries,
12:12all around the world. And, you know, sometimes in languages, well, often in languages you don't
12:17understand yourself, but finding a visual connection to it and, and the humanity in it. And I, I was
12:27always very conscious of that, uh, from my background and everything. But it was just so, um,
12:35there is a link. And the beauty of cinematography, the beauty of a camera and the lens, and like
12:40exciting chemicals, is this can capture something of the reality of people. And that's, that's the most
12:49important part for me. Not that it's a beautiful shot. Not that it is, uh, not that it's world-shattering
12:58or anything. It was just simply truthful. And I think that's, that goes right from the beginning
13:05of my documentary background to what we shoot today. And, you know, visually, there's so many
13:13similarities. I can pick out pieces of documentary footage and you, you could overlap the, the camera
13:20movements of why, why would you, I choose with a zoom lens often, you know, which is the documentary
13:27thing. You get a zoom lens, then it gives you a sculptural vision of the world. I can move left and
13:34right and in and out and closer, intensely close, loose, wide, you know. And that's, uh, all in the
13:44same shot, in, in fact, you know. And is that also sort of how you shot this film? It's sort of a similar
13:51type of approach, obviously shooting with more films and more cameras, I should say, but... Yeah,
13:54yeah, no, I mean, the, the, the variation on that was obviously in documentaries, it was almost always
13:59one camera discovering things, but you had, there was an, an extra level of fluidity because it was
14:06single camera and it was a, so, um, I've been working, it was Catherine on, um, United 93, oh, I'm
14:15sorry, it was Catherine on, uh, Hurt Locker that gave me this kind of opportunity to use more than one
14:22camera. And, you know, we went from one to two to three to four cameras on that shoot, uh, all 16mm,
14:29super 16, handheld, almost entirely throughout the show. And then we, um, but it gave me this
14:37ability to find multiple perspectives and I really kind of grabbed that and, and, and have used that
14:45and I, you know, now I'm very familiar with it, where to put the cameras, why they should be here, what
14:50are they going to capture that isn't, the, is there a main camera? No, there is never, it's not an ABC camera,
14:58it's like three versions of a similar, a similar point and simultaneous action. So we've got editorial
15:06freedom as well. Okay. So, so for, for scenes like say the situation room scene, which is a big core of
15:12the first section and then sort of you see bits of it throughout the, the, the remaining two, uh, sections
15:17or we return to some areas. Uh, uh, um, so those were shot, um, simultaneous, you'd run sort of the,
15:24the scene over and over again using sort of three or four cameras that were shooting in different,
15:28different approaches. We use three cameras on this and, uh, it's slightly, the approach is the same,
15:34the positioning is different and the intention is to capture the entire room rather than,
15:44even though the shots are maybe close-ups, it's still telling you about the whole room. You don't
15:49necessarily, that someone said to me, there's no wide shots in this film. And I said, well, yes, there
15:53are, but you, you have a picture of the, of the spaces by the multiple perspectives. You know, what's,
16:03what this corner of the room looks like and this corner of the room looks like and everything in
16:08between. So you, it's, I mean, yeah, it, to me, it feels very natural and I know it's not,
16:17if there is such a thing as normal cinematography, it's, you know, it's intentionally trying to be, uh,
16:26simple. I think, you know, we don't use a lot of technique. We just use a lot of, uh, I think,
16:32bringing emotion and concentration and, uh, kind of a real sense of, uh,
16:44I believe it. And we make it the space that you shoot, the whole space, so that all the actors
16:49are feeling the same and they're in the same environment and they keep acting.
16:54And do you have different instructions for the different camera people working, you're working
16:59the cameras in terms of their style? Uh, so that, because what I noticed with the different chapters
17:03is that though we go back to some of the scenes that we've already seen, it's never visually the
17:08same. It's never the same perspective. It always, it always changes. You're not repeating shots that
17:12we've seen before. It's not, I wouldn't, I wouldn't say it's instruction. It's like,
17:17are we all in tune with each other? Yeah. And are we playing the same kind of rhythms through this film,
17:24this section of the film? Uh, that's the way I see it, is that we're responding to what's in front of us
17:31and that dictates how you shoot it. And, you know, uh, so there was, uh, Gregor, Gregor, uh, Tavania,
17:44I should get that right. Gregor, Tavania, and, uh, Cat, Catherine and Castro, they were the other two
17:52cameras. And I always operate, so you've got this, this triangle of, of information that we're, we're
18:01gathering, yeah. Yeah. And, and so what was the most, the most challenging scenes to shoot? It, either
18:06of the, sort of the, each chapters? What, what were the chapters? Like, either logistically or just, uh,
18:11you know, conceptually to, to sort of capture what the, the situation you're trying to present?
18:16Uh, you go back to the documentaries. I mean, you go into, you, you, you know,
18:22in documentary style, you might walk into a room that you've never been into and you,
18:26and you have a completely, well, you've, you've built a picture of it in your head,
18:31but now it's the reality. And then the reality includes the, the variations of humanity that are
18:38in that space. Because usually you're filming people. It's not, you know, that's what I like to film.
18:45And therefore you just, it's the same thing. We, we go into each situation, each, each
18:52location and try to draw that out, find it, and give the actors the space. There's no marks on the
19:00floor. There's no, uh, Catherine gives direction, but it's not, it's not based on,
19:06like, you must come here. You must do that. You must do that. You know, there are little things
19:12that you have to leave the room in this point because you, because the next thing you're outside,
19:18you're not in this room. So you will have to leave at some point here and you will get, so it's quite
19:23obvious when, that that has to happen. It's not obvious how that happens, how the actor takes that
19:31instruction and, and how do they get to do that. And we find that. The camera's free. We say to the
19:39actors, like, don't think you've got to be here or by the corner of the desk here or whatever.
19:45We'll shoot it. If you move around the room, we'll shoot it. No matter where you go. Because we can.
19:52We always, I mean, the secret, there is a secret to it, is to be deep in the story. And that's what I
19:58learned from documentaries because you would walk into a room and look from, be the observer. And if
20:05you, with Ken Loach, he took that, that position and we stand back and look into the rooms and into
20:13the people's lives. And I carried that on throughout my career. Been a long career now.
20:21Very long, very, very, very prestigious. Is, I was wondering if that approach, is it
20:28more challenging here for the last scenes? Because in the last scenes, you have very little freedom
20:34of movement because you're in the one, one, the helicopter. Yeah, exactly. With the president.
20:40That restricts sort of what you're able to do? It does. And it's very sedative. They don't move.
20:46They're there. And we have to just be in there. Obviously, we shot inside the beast traveling and
20:54two cameras, again, and covering both sides of the discussion. It's quite a dull thing,
21:04two people looking at it, you know, talking and looking ahead. But, you know, to get the drama is
21:10the tension between the two of them and that. And then, and the sense of motion, because we did do all
21:16the traveling, all, with no back projection or anything like that, we did traveling. And then,
21:23the helicopter's similar. You know, they, they, it's a play at the end. It's a, they, and, and I think
21:30that rhythm is, it was written. That was, you know, that is, that is what Noah Oppenheim wrote. It's what
21:40Catherine desired. And it's what we shot. I don't know. Are actors used to working in this,
21:47this method? Because it seems almost like theater in some ways. You set up a stage and then you perform.
21:51Are a lot of these film actors like Idris Elba and Rebecca Ferguson and so forth, big film actors,
21:56are they used to working in, in that sort of thing? They often say, they will often say,
22:01really love this way of working. I really love it because I felt really free. I didn't know where the
22:06cameras were. I did, you know, you'd forget that there were cameras around the room because there's
22:12perhaps so many, you know, so I'm not acting to one camera. I'm not doing it. I'm just being,
22:18I'm being the subject. And that's, uh, that's what we aim for, you know. And, you know, I've been on,
22:27your way to Venice to show that for the premiere, you know, and quite a few of the actors were there.
22:31And that, you know, they all had the same thing to say, you know, like, this is a,
22:35this is a really interesting way to make a film because I can feel free. And, you know,
22:44and I've never worked with putting marks on the floor because when I worked on documentaries,
22:51you can't, you can't tell real people to do things for you. You have to be the one who responds to
22:57what they do. And I like that. I like to respond rather than direct, you know, instruct.
23:04Order people around. Get in there. If you don't hit the mark, you'll be out of focus.
23:09I mean, we would never dream of something like that. The focus pullers have, uh, first ACs,
23:15which are so superb at, at following action and understanding. And everyone is concentrating
23:22inside the street scene and out and on the camera, every department, they're all concentrating
23:28intensely. I think it's really energetic. It gives me a lot of energy, I promise you.
23:34Yeah. No, I imagine. I mean, it's the whole, the whole feel of, especially with this film,
23:37feels completely, you know, driven, if I could say, if I could say it that way. And I mentioned the
23:42other films you've done, uh, with, with, with Catherine Bigelow, Hurt Locker, and Detroit,
23:45which are also very driven, intense, intense movies. But as I said, it feels here almost
23:50that you're taking a step up, that you're even saying, we're going to make it more intense.
23:53We're going to make it even more rough. Right. I say, in some ways, it could be, um, uh, uh,
23:58it could be, uh, sort of, uh, unrelenting. It sort of has that sense that it,
24:01this sort of, the ticking time clock really seems to, to, uh, to, at least as a viewer,
24:05I seem to experience that. I was on sort of the edge of my seat or full of,
24:09might have enough anxiety already, but added anxiety watching this. Was it a discussion with
24:14you and, um, Catherine Bigelow to say, we want to go further this time? We worked a couple of times,
24:18we've done maybe a few things that are similar in terms of our approach or in terms of the intensity
24:22of the story, but we want to go even further here because the stakes in this story are,
24:26are as high as they could ever be. That's not a conscious, that was not a conscious, you know,
24:34decision. Again, I go back to, it's responsive and I think, um, it's actually, you know, this is,
24:43this is a difficult, it's, I don't know what to say about that because we, I don't see it as being
24:54more energetic or more frantic than a lot of the films I've done or some of the situations I was in
25:00when I was making documentaries. Much more terrifying, you know. I just think it with,
25:08it's a kind of fearlessness in a way. You just have, you know that if we, if we can just capture this,
25:16we can make a good film. That's, I mean, that's as much as I would ever hope for a good film. If people
25:25really do respond to it in the cinemas, if it, if it asks the, if the question is opened up about
25:32what do we really do about this, this worldwide situation, and it is worldwide, it affects everybody,
25:40you know, just to think about it. So every day you're going to work, you're kind of thinking,
25:45this is an important film. We, you know, we'll, we'll try just as hard as we did yesterday and, and,
25:55and we'll instill that in everybody. And at the same time, filmmaking is a really pleasant,
26:01pleasurable experience for people like myself. And it's like, you know, I look forward to every
26:07minute of every day and, and you want to shoot those, you know, capture things in, back to what I
26:13said at the beginning really, where the role of, for me, for cinematography was to be the conduit
26:21between life and reality and the camera and fire the camera to the TV screen or to the cinema screen
26:30or to, into people's minds and to, you know, and, and to be on the side of progress rather than
26:38any kind of reaction. That was, that was my intention. That was my, not that we used to write,
26:45like, here's my intention thing. It was like, that was my intention from the beginning. And I think
26:49I've worked with the people who reflect that. They've, you know, they've chosen what I do,
26:57and I'm very glad of that. I'm very fortunate that, that, that I can actually present these,
27:04these ideas through the lens and through cinematography, because I think cinematography
27:09is like the best art form in the world. Yeah. But, but I'm biased, yeah. Perhaps, perhaps,
27:16you're in the right, you're in the right place here in camera image to make a statement like that.
27:20Maybe I can just ask, I probably can't discuss this film without talking about the ending and the
27:25choices made in the ending without giving any spoilers. I mean, you and Catherine Bigelow don't
27:30end it like Dr. Strangelove. There's not slim pickings, dropping on a bomb, wearing a cowboy hat
27:35and into oblivion. Great film there. You leave, in some ways, a very open ending.
27:42Can you talk about that decision and, and how do you respond, would you respond to audiences that might be
27:47confused or, or upset by, by that type of open ending for such a serious,
27:52I guess? Yeah. Sorry. I think it's the right ending. I think completely, I think, uh, confused and,
27:58uh, is what you should be. You know, it's, it puts it, it puts the decision in your, in your lap,
28:07in a way. You are the president or you are the person who will make the final decision. It's up to you now.
28:14And, and, you know, I mean, not that you, you or I would ever have that opportunity to decide,
28:22but it's, it makes you feel that somebody has to do this. And so we need to know,
28:30do we know the answer? I don't know. I don't think there is an answer. I don't think there is
28:34this. And the ending, it will be history, not, not what we try to present now in the present,
28:40you know? I think it's, yeah, I think it's a, it's like a good book, a good story, a good image,
28:50a good fainting, a good sculpture. It leaves you, it leaves you conscious, more conscious,
28:58but not always with all the answers as well. I think that's what we try to do. Yeah. That makes
29:04sense. No, very much. All right. Yeah. Thank you so much. Uh, very, very accurate. Thank you so much,
29:08uh, for joining us. Um, and thank you for joining us on, uh, THR presents, um, uh, House of Dynamite
29:15is screening right now on Netflix. Uh, so go check it out and tell us what you think of that incredible ending.
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