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77 Percent Street Debate - Foreign Aid
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00:00This week on the 77% Street Debate.
00:12How in any universe is it ethical just to pull the plug and create so much chaos?
00:17I'm living with HIV and as of yet, I still have access to treatment.
00:23But we don't know for how long that's going to be.
00:26We're seeing a rise of nationalist politics and we need to wake up as an African continent
00:32and start realizing it's survival of the fittest.
00:35Africa is on its own.
00:37We undermine our own sovereignty as a country and as a continent.
00:41We are not quite aware of the capability that we have.
00:46I personally don't think South Africa is at the point where you can just say,
00:50cut all aid, let them go and let us do our thing.
00:53I don't feel like we are there yet.
00:54But we need to change the discourse around aid.
00:56Stop thinking of it as a charity to Africa.
00:59It was never charity.
01:01It was soft power.
01:02Is Africa really so desperate that for years it has continued to outsource its most important services,
01:16including health, education and even security?
01:19Well, this is the tough reality that African leaders are having to confront.
01:23After America, the biggest aid donor by far decided to cut back on development aid.
01:28What does this mean for Africa and what does it mean for young people,
01:32particularly here in South Africa, one of the richest places on the continent?
01:35So I'd like to start with Ibanomonde.
01:37At the moment, the reality is that you probably don't have access to health care because of this move.
01:42Tell me about that.
01:43I'm living with HIV and as of yet, I still have access to treatment.
01:49But we don't know for how long that's going to be.
01:52Yeah, so obviously the news is still developing.
01:54Even as we speak, I'm sure that by the time we go to publish, other developments will have occurred.
01:59But initially, when the news came that USAID will be rolling back, what was your initial feeling?
02:05I was shocked because I never thought we would have to be at a place again where we wonder about HIV funding programs.
02:15We've seen the history of it and how it turned out.
02:18We have that evidence of how it looked back then and it was messy.
02:22So to hear about the history of it from my grandparents telling me that when I was much younger,
02:28they used to say to me, take your treatment because back then it was so scarce to get treatment
02:32and now you're privileged because you get to have treatment.
02:35So those words echoed in my mind the morning I saw the news and the articles.
02:40It was all over the internet and it was just echoing in my head because I don't know what's going on
02:46and it's making me nervous.
02:47So let me ask Fanyana here because you're also working in the health space.
02:51How have people been affected?
02:54Well, coming from the research perspective, a lot of trials, especially in VESA-RHI,
03:00have been started by being halted because before the funds were stopped completely, there was a waiver.
03:08So right now, since the funding has stopped, some of the PIs and researchers have actually informed participants
03:15about the recent funding cuts.
03:18And I can tell you that participants are wondering, some are confused, because when you are part of a clinical trial,
03:25you're also going to receive your HIV medication.
03:28So right now, it's a lot of chaos, it's a lot of mess, and reassuring participants that this is just not the research site's fault.
03:38I want to speak to Odwa, who's just behind you here, because we've seen access to health care being denied.
03:44On this side, research being stalled, and for you, something very personal, losing your job.
03:49I actually worked at the transgender clinic, which we're providing services to transgender people and LGBTI plus people,
03:55which was funded by USAID.
03:57And also, working within the program, then I was also one of the patients that we're taking medication with in the project as well.
04:04So it's like double trouble for me.
04:07And for trans people, with the stigma that we get within government facilities, it's going to be very hard.
04:14People are going to default, and nobody is going to be taking medication.
04:18And we are sexually active, guys.
04:20And nobody is going to go and disclose, I'm positive.
04:25And hence, when they were taking their medication, they were virally suppressed so that they couldn't pass it through.
04:30So it's very difficult.
04:31Yeah, and so you've touched on something that Ibanomonde we spoke about prior to this debate,
04:36which is that you're fearful that the stigma around HIV will resurface in the country.
04:41The stigma around HIV has always been.
04:44The same stigmas are now resurfacing, like, oh, you're going to die.
04:49Those people then take those comments and misinformation and apply them.
04:54And they have a fear of now, should I even go to the clinic?
04:58I've had some young people reaching out.
05:00Should I even still start treatment?
05:02Because I just found out about my state.
05:04Clearly, there's going to be stockouts.
05:06So stigma is resurfacing harder.
05:09And I think for me, that's just the sad part, because there's been a lot of investment, emotion, time, and money
05:17into making sure that compassionate societies, stigma-free societies are built.
05:24But now we're seeing...
05:25You've introduced an important word, investments.
05:28And I want to come to Simon here, who is a co-founder of a pan-African publication, The Continent.
05:32How did Africa get to a point where we are depending on another government's decisions for survival?
05:38Yes, we are receiving support, and there's lots of historical reasons for that.
05:42Africa has tried a number of times to change this paradigm.
05:46And let me give you a little historical allegory.
05:49In the 19th century, China used to buy a lot of opium from the British Empire.
05:56And they thought this was a really bad idea for their society, so they banned opium.
06:01You know what happened next?
06:02The British sent warships up the Yangtze River and bombed China until they agreed to start selling opium again.
06:09Now, something similar has been happening with the global aid and development system.
06:14In 2015, African leaders said,
06:16We do not want the aid system.
06:18Please scrap aid entirely.
06:19It's not working for our countries.
06:21In return, what you guys can do is fix the tax loopholes that are allowing for illicit financial flows from this continent,
06:28which is money leaving Africa.
06:30Three or four times the value leaves Africa, then comes in aid.
06:35Africa wanted to stop aid, but also stop tax loopholes.
06:39You know what happened next?
06:40The United States and the United Kingdom, which at the time was representing the European Union,
06:45wouldn't even allow that question onto the agenda.
06:48They did not want to have that discussion because the aid system worked for them.
06:53Realpolitik, as we call it in the field.
06:56But coming back to the pushback that you said, that African governments actually don't need this aid.
07:01A lot of the money actually goes to American companies and middlemen that are charged with implementing some of these decisions.
07:11So very, very little of it actually ends up in Africa.
07:13I don't think anyone wanted this system.
07:15Everyone wanted to change it, but not like this.
07:18There was a responsible way to do it.
07:19This is not the responsible way.
07:21Let me ask Karabo, who is a development expert.
07:23Is it not possible to have both get access to life-saving treatment or in any other sector and still sustain development within the local population?
07:34Okay, so I have an entirely different narrative in this conversation.
07:38Let me start off by acknowledging that, you know, the losses that obviously we've incurred as a result of the withdrawal are unfortunate.
07:46However, I believe it's necessary.
07:48I think it's a necessary moment and a necessary time.
07:52The long-term nice game was just not going to work out.
07:55It's important for African countries to start doubling down on self-sufficiency, on regional cooperation and economic independence.
08:08And perhaps maybe I'm a radicalist.
08:09I do think that in the bigger scheme of things, it means we're going to have to experience short-term losses for long-term gains.
08:17In this case, short-term losses could be lives.
08:20Absolutely.
08:20And it's unfortunate that we have to get to this point whereby the losses are absolutely lives.
08:26And that's not what we want.
08:27But the enemy here is our own governments.
08:30What are they doing to respond to this viscous gap that has been created?
08:34There's a power that we have on this continent, and our leaders are not assertive enough.
08:39Let me ask Nyakalo, who is a youth representative from the EFF.
08:42You know, majority African governments have had an average of 60 years to get their act right.
08:47Why is it that we are here having this conversation in 2025?
08:51We're having this conversation, Edith, because we undermine our own sovereignty as a country and as a continent.
08:59We are not quite aware of the capability that we have.
09:03And our economic activity is then dependent on donor countries.
09:08We have people that are walking on eggshells in governance that want to maintain good relationships where they really need to be addressing the needs of the country.
09:17And this is coming at the compromise of lives, at the compromise of young people, at the compromise of those who are in need the most.
09:24To speak truth to power is actually the medicine that we need as a country right now.
09:28Let me ask Ibanomonde, how do you feel about this?
09:31Because it's easy to conceptualize these ideas and make it sound really nice and intellectual.
09:36But the reality is you still need access to medication.
09:40I think my take really is that healthcare is a global responsibility.
09:45We're even at a point where the HIV statistics have kind of decreased from what it used to be.
09:53And it didn't just happen miraculously.
09:55Countries came together and they said, let us collaborate in making sure that this HIV epidemic is fought.
10:04There's also a threat to accessing this life-saving treatment.
10:08So the fact that there are some people out there who are in the coming days or weeks or years, who knows,
10:14who will be lacking access to life-saving treatment, that is a violation of their human rights.
10:18But also, it's a very nice conversation if you're not a young person living with HIV.
10:23It's a very nice conversation when you're not living with HIV.
10:26I'm happy to have this conversation when you're in the shoes of someone who is in shock and in fear of what's going to happen with their lives.
10:32Yeah, it's nice because you're not sensitized to it.
10:37So you're speaking from a point of detachment, not empathy.
10:40But the thing is, health is a global responsibility in any case.
10:44Okay. Let me, Karabo.
10:46Yeah, I mean, I 100% agree health is a global responsibility.
10:52The geopolitics are changing.
10:53We're no longer in a world whereby it's let's work together, it's Kumbaya, America first, Netherlands first, UK first.
11:03We're seeing a rise of nationalist politics.
11:06And we need to wake up as an African continent and start realizing it's survival of the fittest.
11:12Africa is on its own.
11:14We will continue being the extractive place where they'll extract a lot of our resources.
11:19We'll continue being, you can only have aid if you give us something.
11:23You only get our money if you give us something.
11:25So that's a wake-up call.
11:27Nothing is the world or, you know, universal anymore.
11:31We are now looking at how can we come as the African continent, push regional cooperation, push economic development, and push self-sufficiency.
11:41Because the geopolitics don't even allow us to look at health as a universal right.
11:45I really love the passion.
11:47And actually, somebody who might have an answer for you is Minya, who is part of an African potential group.
11:53Tell us a little bit about what you do, because it's sort of answering this question.
11:57Why aren't Africans coming together?
11:59I mean, Edith, that's a very challenging question.
12:02I love what you're saying.
12:04You say Africa first.
12:07Africa needs to come together.
12:08But you started with America said they first.
12:11That's a country.
12:12UK said they first.
12:13That's a country.
12:14Denmark said they first.
12:15That's a country.
12:16Africa is a continent.
12:18And we have a lot of diversity.
12:21We have a lot of resources.
12:23And we have the youngest population, a population that's literally going to hold the global power in its hand.
12:31Now, how do we strategize and how do we come together to actually find a solution going forward?
12:37We need to have a response from governments.
12:40And we do.
12:40We are lacking it.
12:41How in any universe is it ethical just to pull the plug and create so much chaos in a health system that is universal?
12:49Because we are all connected.
12:51We are all systems based.
12:52So we all touch each other's lives in some way.
12:55And the fact that the administration thinks that they're not going to be impacted by this, it's very short-sighted.
13:03We need to implement real programs that are measurable, that we can actually hold people accountable for.
13:09And that is hard.
13:12It's not an easy journey.
13:14Okay.
13:14Creating systems, but those systems are built by people.
13:17And one of those people could be Pat.
13:19He is very famous here for being an entrepreneur.
13:21So where do you think the responsibility with the private sector falls in this debate?
13:26There's no way we can build a sustainable future through aid.
13:30We're going to continuously go out to the east, to the west, to the south, with a begging bow, asking for aid so that we can continue to live.
13:39Africa is endowed with resources.
13:41However, there's a deficit when it comes to leadership.
13:45And if you look at the age, an average age of an African is 1920, right?
13:51And if you look at the median age of an African leader, it's 66 years plus.
13:57So meaning that we have people right now that are in powerful offices that are tasked with taking decisions that will lead us into the future that are out of touch, in a way, with the current youth.
14:10Okay.
14:11Which now raises a whole other question.
14:13South Africa just concluded its election, right?
14:15But the responsibility to elect functional governments lies with the people.
14:20We, the people, as your t-shirt says.
14:23This We the People t-shirt that I'm wearing is a brand started by a young man called Teppo, you know, who's now taking over the fashion industry by storm.
14:31But no one came to, knocking on his door to say Teppo started his brand.
14:35It was out of his own accord that he went on and started this brand and become, and it now employing more and more people.
14:41So what we need now as young people who are here today is not to say what aid can come from the east, west, or south, but we can, what can we start today that will ensure that as young people will have a sustainable future.
14:55And that starts with business.
14:57Unfortunately, Africa needs to trade with itself.
15:01We cannot.
15:02Unfortunately.
15:03Unfortunately, rather.
15:05We always had this HIV pandemic or epidemic, rather, for a couple of decades now.
15:11But we haven't really, as a continent or as countries, made enough investments to build our own facilities that will help us solve this problem.
15:20So a leadership deficit, as you say.
15:22So, Karabo, why aid and not investments?
15:26Why aren't African governments saying, bring your money, yes, but to help develop us?
15:30I think we need to interrogate ownership and a lot of the resources on the continent.
15:36I think it's important, and perhaps I'm a radicalist, but I do think we need to take back ownership of the things that belong to us.
15:43What things are these?
15:44Our mineral resources, the private sector being able to do what they want, as they want within the government.
15:55I do think that we need to take it all back and make them realize that the power sits with us.
16:01If you want to actually engage, it's our resources.
16:05You need to come and invest in us.
16:07Otherwise, we're always going to sit at the begging table.
16:09All right.
16:10I personally don't think South Africa is at the point where you can just say, cut all aid, let them go, and let us do our thing.
16:17I don't feel like we are there yet.
16:18And I want to ask you why, Fanyana, because this country is a member of BRICS.
16:23It's, I mean, doing really well for itself.
16:25Well, let's start with the example that everybody knows.
16:30Our youth, over 40% of our youth is unemployed.
16:34If you can't just sustain your youth to be employed, there are programs that are in place.
16:40We can see how they are failing.
16:41How do we expect a government like that to manage a health care system that many of lives are involved?
16:49Because a pandemic somewhere is a pandemic everywhere.
16:52We saw it with COVID-19.
16:53Let's hear from the gentleman here.
16:56The issue is staff.
16:59A lot of people have lost their jobs.
17:02A lot of people are now unemployed.
17:04What does this then do?
17:06It increases our unemployment rate from the large number that it was at to another larger number.
17:13So now we are at a point, as an African continent, this is the catalyst that we've always been looking for.
17:19We are at the point where now we need to stop being codependent on other people and start being independent for ourselves so that we can move on forward to having a better tomorrow.
17:30Okay.
17:31You were really nodding when he was speaking.
17:33I'd like to hear your views.
17:34Well, the ones that are on the ground working with us hand in hand, they were laid off immediately.
17:41And that shattered the community, causing conflict, causing confusion about whether are they going to still get medication?
17:49Are they going to still get the same services they were getting?
17:53It's cluttered in clinics.
17:55We are barely making means meet.
17:57Then let me ask, Minya, how easy is it to do that?
18:01Because we're speaking about the possibilities of Africa extricating itself from this infrastructure of aid.
18:07But how realistic is it?
18:09I think it is realistic.
18:10But look, if everything was easy, it would have been done long ago.
18:14I want to take us somewhere.
18:16I think we look at aid.
18:18And the first thing I want to say is I think we need to change the discourse around aid.
18:22Stop thinking of it as a charity to Africa.
18:25It was never charity.
18:26It was soft power.
18:27It was diplomacy.
18:29Okay.
18:30And we need to stop receiving it as charity.
18:33Let's look at aid, whatever aid is left to flow into South Africa and the African continent,
18:38as a catalyst that we can use to implement the changes, to grow the industries and the economy within.
18:47But, Simon, I'm also wondering, where are the African bodies?
18:50You know, we're talking about health care here.
18:52We have an African Center for Disease Control.
18:55Where are they?
18:56Why aren't they stepping in to take care of HIV funding, malaria, or whatever other crises we might have in Africa?
19:02Well, that's a great question.
19:03Minya is laughing, by the way.
19:04She's tickled by this idea.
19:06So, I mean, the African Union is a great example that kind of demonstrates all these problems.
19:12It is 90% funded by foreign partners.
19:16The EU, I think.
19:17But the reason it is 90% funded by foreign partners is because African countries are not paying their membership dues.
19:23So there's multiple intersecting issues here.
19:25But basically, no one is willing to pay for this really, really important stuff.
19:29And if no one pays, well, then it leaves it at the mercy of whoever is willing to pay.
19:34And that's where we find ourselves at the moment.
19:36Okay.
19:37You had something to say, Nyakalo?
19:39If we were to actually critically start thinking, why did the U.S. president actually stop funding to begin with?
19:46It was because they were under a false pretense that the white minority of this country was in some kind of white genocide, which was a falsehood, right?
19:56And in punishment to South Africans, they then said, we're going to stop this aid.
20:00So how far are we willing to allow these imperialists to keep on driving a narrative that if we don't bow down to their rules, they will have another way to punish us, lives that are lost, medication that is not supplied?
20:14So, Nyakalo, obviously, we have to correct that because there was no explicit mention.
20:19But obviously, it is widely believed that it is tit for tat.
20:23I heard you saying no.
20:24Do you want to say something to that?
20:25Well, because the aid, the U.S. aid stop order happened long before that whole incident around him saying all of that stuff around South Africa.
20:33But I wanted to add another thing about this discourse around aid because I think we're talking about this money as if it's something that Europeans own and are giving it to us.
20:42But the reality is, where did that wealth come from?
20:46If we're talking about the Dutch government, where did all of that wealth come from?
20:50They're not giving it to us because they're nice people.
20:52They owe that money back because all of that wealth in France, in Germany, in Britain, in Netherlands, that wealth was siphoned out of Africa.
21:05And so, we should be asking for it back on our own terms and not saying, please give us some aid, saying, give us back what you took from us.
21:13Oh, that's an interesting perspective.
21:15Let me hear from you.
21:15And I would also like to reiterate, Edith, if you look at the U.S. Embassy and its response, it did say, as per violation of human rights in South Africa, we do want to take the stand of pausing or stopping aid in South Africa.
21:31So, that definitely has political implications.
21:33But we are looking at certain donor countries currently that want to bully Africans.
21:39And if we don't unify and establish either an African currency that is able to take us forward, as a continent, we really are in siege.
21:49Okay, Pat, again, I come back to the question of realism.
21:53Only recently did this country lift visa restrictions for somebody like me coming from Kenya.
21:57If we can't figure out basic things like movement, how are we expected to figure out something so fundamental as a continental healthcare system?
22:06I mean, obviously, there's been some attempts through the AFCTA, the Inter-Africa Trade Agreement.
22:13Continental Free Trade Area.
22:14Uh-huh.
22:14There are some strides that are being made, but the tide is moving very slow.
22:18But I must say, though, Africa is home to the youngest population in the world.
22:23And I think it's estimated that by 2030, a quarter of global youth will be in Africa.
22:28So with that as well, if we are ignoring the youth, and what I find interesting with this whole saga that's happening right now is that not one leader or one person ever asks, like, what does the youth think about this thing?
22:42Can we get some youth into, you know, the parliament, into the room?
22:46And let's discuss these issues.
22:48Let's hear from them.
22:48Because we're going to leave the world for them.
22:51They're not going to be here in the next, most of them actually won't be around in the next 20 years.
22:56But we'll be here, you know, and we'll be sort of following the same footsteps, which is very unfortunate.
23:02Yeah, so we want to hear from the youth, and that's why we're here.
23:05So because of time, let's hear some solutions.
23:08What do you think should happen so that we are not in the same situation 20, 30 years from now?
23:13Okay, so I think the first thing is we need a narrative shift.
23:16So we need to start understanding that Uncle Trump, Global North are not our friends.
23:20Let's start there.
23:21Uncle Trump.
23:22Uncle Trump.
23:23And then number two, regional cooperation.
23:26While we are diverse, because of colonialism, we are better together.
23:30And number three, can the old mamas and fathers in government step aside?
23:36We are ready to take over.
23:40Okay, Panyana, you have something to say?
23:41Well, firstly, I would say we appreciate the funding.
23:45We appreciate it.
23:46We have to understand that not every funder has the same mindset as other funders.
23:52There are still those good funders, which I won't get into more details about them.
23:56But as a country, I feel like there are a lot of policies and contracts that have been signed
24:01and we're in agreement with people who I think are no longer alive.
24:05And those policies have to be reviewed.
24:08And us, as the youth, have to be informed about the procedures that are taking place, especially those big rooms.
24:14As the gentleman said here, those people who are making talks, who are signing these agreements, we are not there.
24:21Some of them, we don't agree with them.
24:23Okay.
24:23We opened this debate with Iban Omonde.
24:25I'd like to conclude with you.
24:27Having listened to everything that everybody has to say, do you believe that the South Africa, and indeed the Africa of the next 10 years,
24:34will be better and more trustworthy than the governments we have now?
24:38Yes, I do believe that Africa needs to be self-reliant.
24:43I do really, really believe in that.
24:46But this is where we're at currently, and we cannot neglect that.
24:50We just can't neglect that.
24:52And while we're still here, I'd just like to urge the government, the Minister of Health, and the President, our President,
24:59to give us a commitment that will put us at ease.
25:03To make sure that the young people, the people living with HIV who are in marginalized areas, are not forgotten,
25:09because that's where the NGOs work.
25:11And we're seeing people who can't travel to town for hours and afford that to get their treatment,
25:15who are now without treatment.
25:16And there's a lot of factors contributing to this.
25:18There are a lot of people whose lives are at stake.
25:20And I do, I echo you, I echo everyone.
25:23It is important that we are self-reliant.
25:26But we're here now, and we need the government to step up.
25:28And when it comes to the HIV response, they cannot continue having conversations about HIV,
25:33people living with HIV, young people, without them in the room.
25:37Because I don't think, frankly, they know the challenges that we're facing currently.
25:41Okay.
25:41I love that young Africans here have said that they do have their answers.
25:45Is it going to be easy?
25:46Absolutely not.
25:47But like Kendrick Lamar said, Africans, we gon' be your...
25:52Right!
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