- 9 minutes ago
AI is reshaping the music industry, and Grammy-winning singer, songwriter and producer Imogen Heap breaks down what this moment really means for creators. She joins host Kristin Robinson to unpack how she’s blended technology with artistry for two decades, the rise of generative AI and why it’s becoming harder to tell where human creativity ends and machine production begins. Heap explains the urgent need for better metadata, identity layers and contributor search tools, and what it will take to set the right standards before AI becomes fully embedded in the music industry. She discusses the possibility of labels signing AI artists, the fears and misconceptions surrounding AI-generated work and why she believes art still matters if it resonates, no matter how it’s made. Heap also reflects on building her career independently, the flaws in traditional major label deals, and the innovations behind her Mi.Mu gloves as she envisions the future of human-driven music in an AI-powered era.
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00:00When AI becomes the next pop star, who gets the spotlight? The artist or the algorithm?
00:05You might have caught recent headlines about so-called AI artists or artists that heavily rely
00:11on AI tools like image, voice, or music models to make their songs. There's one artist, Zania
00:16Monet, for example, who recently signed a record deal and is climbing the gospel charts and is
00:20playing on radio stations across the country. Meanwhile, last week, a bunch of songs in the
00:25top 10 on the country sales chart were also songs that stem from this kind of AI artist.
00:30At a time when AI-generated songs seemed to be exploding, cropping up everywhere from TikTok
00:35trends to the billboard charts, it felt like the perfect time to dive into how this will
00:40impact artists and what can be done to protect human creativity in the process. And I couldn't
00:45dream of a better guest to join me here today to discuss this topic than Imogen Heap.
00:50Welcome back to On The Record, a music business podcast from Billboard and Sickford Productions.
01:00As always, I'm your host, Kristen Robinson, and I'm thrilled to have Imogen Heap on the
01:04show today to talk about the rise of generative AI and how it will impact artists.
01:09Imogen is a multi-Grammy winning singer, songwriter, producer, engineer, and technologist who has
01:15been making music for over two decades now, and it's clear that she still is somehow a few steps
01:20ahead of the rest of us. We will unpack this growing AI phenomenon and what these tools mean
01:25for the future of creativity. As Imogen herself recently put it, the genie can't go back in the
01:30bottle. And after years of research and development, she's finding ways to use AI ethically within her
01:36own artistic practice. There are really few artists that understand the intersection of music and
01:40technology quite like Imogen. Her latest singles, I Am and Afterlife, for example, both use her
01:46regular singing voice and this AI voice model, which is trained on hundreds of hours of her own
01:51singing, which she calls AI Mojin. She's also been hard at work developing oracles, a system designed
01:57to help artists manage their IP in an age of AI where deepfakes and training models on music without
02:03permission is very commonplace. We'll also touch on the 20th anniversary of Imogen's influential album,
02:09Speak For Yourself, which she released at another time of great change in the music biz. Back then,
02:15CD sales were down, MP3s were taking over, and almost no one was having an easy go of it. But still,
02:21Imogen managed to release the project independently and to great success. Today, the album is considered
02:26a modern pop classic, and ever since, she's gone on to serve as an inspiration for music's biggest
02:32stars, including Taylor Swift, Ariana Grande, Olivia Rodrigo, Pink Pantheress, and yes,
02:39even Jason Derulo, in the years since Speak For Yourself's release. All this to say, I am very,
02:45very excited for our conversation today. So let's go ahead and bring her in. Imogen Heap,
02:50thank you so much for coming to On The Record. I'm so happy that you're here virtually from London.
02:55Thank you. Very happy to be here.
02:56Where did you just fly in from? You were just on a plane like two hours ago.
02:59I was coming from Lisbon, a lovely city. It was actually torrential rain. I didn't know if I
03:05was going to get back here because the thunder and lightning last night was so incredible. I
03:08thought that there was somebody like going over my hotel room with a massive car or a big train
03:13or something, but it just turned out to be thunder. So yeah, we might have, but we were stuck on the
03:17runway forever, which is why I'm late. There's nothing worse than trying to get back quickly from the
03:22airport. So I really appreciate you still being able to make it. I'm really excited to chat because
03:28I think that you are one of the artists that really just has been keeping your finger on the
03:34pulse of what's going on in the world of like cutting edge technology, generative AI, all that
03:39stuff. And so that's one of the things that I report on at Billboard. It's become a huge focus
03:44for me over time. So before we get into that kind of a chat, I wanted to kind of throw it back to
03:51the beginning of your career when you're getting started. What were some of the technological tools in
03:56your studio back in the day that really inspired you? Well, I didn't have a studio in the beginning
04:01because it was very expensive to have a studio. But I did have a keyboard. I had an N-Sonic TS-12,
04:09which I still love. And I did have access to computers. So when I was 12, I started learning
04:17on an old Atari. And they had some software on there at school that nobody knew how to use. And
04:24it was in like this cupboard. It was like, it's basically like the naughty cupboard. But I,
04:29I realized later in life that my head, the music teacher was just kind of being nice to me. He was
04:33going, just get in the cupboard. But he knew that I just wanted to like make music on the computer.
04:38So that's, that's when I started realizing that, oh, wow, there's something in this computer thing
04:42that's like, helping me be more than I can with just writing it down on the paper and hoping that
04:47an orchestra might play it one day, which they never would. Um, well, they did eventually. Ha ha.
04:52Um, so yeah, it was like computers. And then when I was 15, I went to the Brit school. I was a second
04:57year in, it's like this school in the UK, which lots of musicians go to because it's the only, one of
05:02the only schools like it. Um, and that's when I learned to use Cubase. Um, so I did know my way
05:08around studio, but I didn't have that much equipment. I had a QI 70, uh, but that was a
05:12bit later. That was like when I was 21. So I could make little beats on that.
05:15Do you think that like technology has always inspired you to start writing or what do you
05:19think usually kickstarts the songwriting process for you?
05:22It really is more about time. Like what am I doing? Any musical instrument anywhere,
05:28or if there's any time where it's like, oh, actually I could be doing music now,
05:32then it really doesn't matter where I am. I can make music out of anything. Um,
05:37I think it is really about just feeling calm and excited and like, there's not a lot on your back
05:43right now. And that the sense that you actually might have time to finish something or even just
05:47manage to do a verse, or even if you did capture something, I'll have to support this, this fun
05:51little, it's called the drone machine and it's made by stylophone. Um, and I love it. And I spent
05:57four hours, uh, just like noodling around on it on the plane the other day, but I didn't have a way to
06:01record it into my iPhone. Um, so, and I didn't bring my laptop. So yeah, there's just,
06:07it is right now it involves lots of steps, um, to just kind of clear the area to make me enable me
06:13to just actually put something down. But most of the time it's a notepad. Um, I just write all the
06:18time in my little notepads or in my notes. It's when I was younger, it was a piano. Um, it was a
06:25piano or it was a cassette player. Um, and I would just come up with something, but now life is
06:31different, very hectic. There's so much stuff going on as little piece. So it's just little scraps of
06:36things really here and there. Um, and like this little stylophone thing's really cool.
06:41Interesting. So I want to get to AI Mojin, Oracles and the Mimu, uh, uh, gloves, but before I get
06:50there, I am very curious, like when was the first time that you realized that generative AI was going
06:56to be very impactful in music? Um, I don't know. I think it like weirdly crept up on me. The first time
07:03I did any generative anything was with a human, uh, called Rob Thomas. And this was about 15,
07:1017 years ago. And he wrote code for apps and he had, there was this brilliant app basically would
07:17take the world around you and it would synthesize it in harmony. So if you're on the train, it would
07:22kind of have resonant frequencies of everything. And then it would just sound all in time and in
07:28tuned, um, RJ DJ, that's what it's called. And there was all these different scenes and they
07:32were really great. Anyway, I loved it so much. I reached out. So I was like, can I speak to
07:35somebody there? And then he came around and we did this experiment where he would, he would
07:39personally analyze the way that I improvised. And then he created a little program so they could
07:44generate music, um, in the style of the way that I played piano. So he was just like, you know,
07:50mentally, um, creating a little algorithm as a human as kind of apportioning, kind of
07:57appropriating what he thought was me. Um, and it just kind of occurred to me, wow, that'd be so
08:02useful to be able to just like start improvising. And then the piano continues on without me. And
08:08then I can kind of jam kind of with myself, but like a one step removed, but it's still kind of me.
08:13And so I always was, I was really inspired by that. And that started a song called runtime
08:18because we were going to make a running app out of it that would like work to the rhythm of your,
08:23of your running and everything. Um, I think that that's a total thing now. Um, but we wanted to,
08:28we wanted to explore with that. So it was about 17 years ago, but I suppose the way that I feel now
08:34it's impacting is just everybody's terrified. That's not true. Not everyone's terrified. I'm not
08:39terrified. I'm just aware that even not just even music, everything, everything, uh, is,
08:46is being turned upside down and it's not all a loss. Uh, there are many things that we can do
08:52to mitigate it and to set the standard to, to make things better for us in the future by getting
08:57things right now. Um, and I'm excited about the progression. I do see it as a kind of evolution
09:01of us as people. Um, and I'm excited to, with all the possibilities that could happen that I could
09:08go and talk about that for about four hours. Um, but I felt like only really everywhere else, uh,
09:15I felt the big change in the last two years really, but I'd been doing like AI judging of AI music,
09:22um, competitions for about, I don't know, I've been asked to do that like three or four times
09:28over the last 10 years. And there was a sudden like jerk basically of like, oh, wow, this sounds
09:34completely amazing compared to what it is then. Um, and you know, that is incredible. You know,
09:40the shift that really happened over, you know, basically. I feel like for me, when I noticed a
09:46huge shift was I started reporting on AI music and it was just like, they could generate kind of a
09:52shitty, but passable instrumental. But then when Suno came out and you could really generate
09:58everything at the click of a button and it sounded pretty convincing and increasingly it's gotten even
10:03more and more convincing. That's when I really felt like, oh, wow, it's suddenly here. It felt like
10:09just a, a moment when, uh, things really did shift. And it's interesting that we're talking this week
10:16because, um, it feels like right now, a lot of these so-called like AI artists, which I don't know
10:23how I feel about that term. Um, but there's a lot of people who are using AI tools very heavily in their
10:29creative process that are now actually seeing some level of success from it. Because I think at first
10:33it was maybe a creative experimentation, but they weren't rising up the charts or they weren't trending
10:39on Tik TOK or getting a lot of streams. But now we're starting to see that with like, uh, Zania
10:44Monet. Um, she has made a lot of headlines recently. I'm wondering for you as these kind of heavily AI
10:53generated projects start entering the marketplace alongside human-made works. Do you think that
10:59these things should be treated similarly in terms of what royalties they make, um, what opportunities
11:06they have, or do you think there needs to be some distinction between AI works and human-made works?
11:11And all the gray in between. Yeah.
11:12Yeah. And then all the gray in between.
11:14Yeah, for sure. No, I do think we need to have a way to identify in some form, however little or
11:20granulated that can be right now. Um, but we definitely need to build the layer that allows
11:28the humans to show their input and to be verified by other humans as that is that person's work. And
11:34because, you know, I trust this person who trusts this person and that's what we're doing, which we
11:39might talk about later with oracles. Um, it's just a place for a human to say, this is me. These are my
11:45works. Um, these are the people that I work with. These are all the, this is all the contextual
11:49information around this, this piece of music and how I made it and the instruments and whatever it
11:53is, whatever we want to find out. Um, and creating this wealth of information that the future and now
11:59industry can build on. So until that happens, we are still kind of floating around in midair
12:04because we don't even have the bedrock of understanding even right now, as we're still in this
12:10kind of traditional music making way, uh, of identifying human work even now. And that's one of the main
12:17problems. Yeah. That's something that I've been encountering in my own reporting is people will
12:22come to me and they'll say, Hey, this song is AI generated. And I'm like, I don't know for sure
12:27that it is AI generated or if it is fully human made. And, um, I think AI detection tools still
12:33have a long way to go. And I'm really, really hopeful that there's some strides made in that
12:37because right now it's one of those, it's almost like a guessing game. And you'd hate to, uh,
12:41accuse someone of using AI or say an AI work is human and have that be completely wrong.
12:48But like you were saying before, there's like such a gray area in the middle when we talk about,
12:53or we see headlines about AI songs or AI artists, this can be anything from something that is fully
12:59generated just using a prompt and then the human steps back. Or it could be something where it's
13:05mostly human made, but there's just an AI vocal that's incorporated.
13:09Kristen, actually, I just want to butt in because you said then about mistaking, uh,
13:14human music for AI music. And actually embarrassingly, I did that the other day and I felt really bad
13:19about it. So I discovered this artist, um, when I was listening to a playlist and I discovered this
13:25playlist because of my new favorite artist called Blauen, which I know I'm a bit late in the day,
13:28but I just love this record that he's done. So it recommended, you know, go listen to this other
13:33stuff. So I found this long playlist and I listened to loads of stuff and I was like, oh, quite like,
13:36made a load of notes on this plane journey. But one of them was that this artist called
13:40Data Cluster. And I was like, wow, this really sounds like Max Cooper and John Hopkins. Like
13:47it really, really does. Like I, I was really suspicious. Um, and I looked up on this, you
13:53know, on the biography about this person and there was, it just said data made, uh, is it
13:58made with errors or something like that? And I was like, this is very suspicious. And then I
14:03looked this person up and I did actually find a person behind it. But I was like, ah, but that
14:06could be a reason. It might not be real. Anyway, I found that Instagram page and then I followed
14:11them. And, uh, this person was like, oh my God, Imogen, hey, uh, is this real? Are you real?
14:16I love your music. And I was like, are you real?
14:19Yeah. I was going to say like, both of you are.
14:22Cause I just said this, this record that you've done, I absolutely love it. Like I'm really,
14:26really enjoying it, but I can't help feeling how similar it is sometimes to Max
14:30Cooper and my friend John. And he was like, oh, thanks so much. They're my biggest heroes.
14:34That's like the best thing you could have ever said to me. And I was like, no, and I
14:37don't take this the wrong way, but did you create a model that kind of, you know, mashes
14:43them up together and then generates them and kind of did stuff over the top. He was like,
14:46absolutely no way. I can show you the stems. I can do this. And fair enough. He got like,
14:51you know, a bit offended. Um, but it has got to that point where we can recreate things
14:57and honor people. And, uh, and we do all the time. It's sometimes without knowing it,
15:01we just, we go, oh, we've come up with this idea. And actually it was something that somebody else
15:05did, but you just forgot about it. And you thought it was an original idea. Um, and it
15:08happens all the time. So I'm quite, yeah, I, we definitely are at that place where it's very
15:14confusing right now. Um, and we do need some clarity, but we are, we can do it. There are,
15:21there are tools and everybody wants it. So I feel like the silver lining really of this
15:27dark cloud, as some might see it as AI music taking over, um, is that we are going to get
15:33the data layer of works. We're going to get this complete data layer of works because people
15:39will want to prove not only that they're human, but they want to go to it. They want to actually
15:44just say, do you know, I'm human. And these are all of my works that I actually contributed
15:47to, even if I'm a mixing engineer or whatever it is. So I feel like, you know, this panic
15:52in, uh, you know, how are we going to, how are we going to, um, know what's what is also
15:57going to empower us to just do what we've needed to do for like a hundred years.
16:01I recently spoke to someone at Hallwood Media, which is signing AI artists. They've signed
16:05this Zania Monet, um, artist, which, um, has gone pretty viral in recent weeks. Um, and
16:12one of the things that they said is because Zania is backed by a real person who essentially
16:17writes poetry and then uses, you know, to help complete that poetry into a song, they
16:22record or they have her record herself making her music so that if anyone ever has questions
16:28about it, they can actually show like, here's exactly what she did. Here's exactly what AI
16:32did. I could kind of see that being something that, uh, becomes a thing in the coming years,
16:38um, of just trying to create a log of here's what I did. Here's what AI did is that increasingly
16:44becomes part of the creative process. But I do want to go back to that point about
16:49Hallwood signing AI artists. Um, they're the first label that has been pretty public about
16:55doing this. Um, I'm wondering in the coming few years, do you anticipate that this will
17:00become a thing where major record labels are signing AI talent, um, or, um, talent that heavily
17:06uses AI. And how do you feel about that? Do you think that that's right?
17:13Um, I think lots of things when he said that, I feel like a lot of major labels are signing
17:19music that sounds AI generated to me anyway. It's just like, Oh, that just sounds like that
17:23last thing. And that last thing is nothing's changed. Um, so it doesn't surprise me at all
17:28that that would happen. Um, and wherever there's money, obviously they'll go if they think they
17:33can make money out of this artist. Um, I think right now it's exciting. It's like, it's a,
17:38it's such a nascent space, exciting kind of beginnings where it still sounds a bit AI and
17:43it's like, you're not quite sure. And it's that will soon disappear where you absolutely
17:47can't tell. I actually love these early beginnings where the voices just sound like they're kind
17:53of jumping around or the performance of the voice isn't quite right. And they said the diction,
17:58the way they say things in the accents is all funny. I really liked that. I'm kind of going
18:02to miss that when AI and humans create music that we never could have expected, you know,
18:08that just like really, we just wouldn't have gone there because you couldn't really imagine
18:13mashing that thing with that thing. Cause it would have taken so long to do it with a band,
18:17with a fit. I don't know. Um, that we'll just be able to iterate and hear things differently.
18:21And it will just, it will, it will really just like make us hyper creative. So I'm excited
18:26for the music that's going to come and the people that are going to mash and hack, hack these
18:31systems together to create like weird kind of weird sculptures with small heads and, but
18:38music. Um, because why not? Like we're not really, we're not really pushing the boat out
18:44a lot. Um, and I, I really think we need to, and I think we'll go through this boring phase
18:48of people just mimicking what we do. And then once we got over that, um, we will, we'll create
18:54music that's like really astounding and exciting, but it will be, it will be a complete cross
18:59between us. What you just said earlier, um, really reminded me of a quote from Brian, you
19:03know, who I'm, I'm going to butcher it. I don't know it off the top of my head, but he
19:08talked about how, um, after a technology gets really good, people start to have a fondness
19:13for like whatever the quality of it that everyone criticized when it first came out. I mean, early
19:18photography and film did not look good. There was a grain on it. It didn't look totally real
19:24to life, but after a while now we're adding film grain onto things to make it like kind
19:29of emulate that style. I think it'll be interesting to see what people think of like looking back
19:33on, I guess, like 2021 AI generated images where like the hands are all messed up and
19:38they have different fingers, uh, that are not right. But yeah, it'll, it'll be fascinating,
19:43but I wanted to go back to something that you've referenced before. You said, um, that even
19:50like, you know, 15 years ago you were working with AI to try to create an algorithm that
19:56mimicked the way that your creative process worked. And now I was using a human, I was
20:01using a human to do it, using a human to do it. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. But it was the beginnings
20:05of this generative idea that you can extend yourself beyond just your human capacity that
20:10you can create a code that will emulate you and beyond. Yes. And so now like you've recently
20:16released a 13 minute song called I am, which also has a beautiful visual that goes along
20:21with it. And in that song, it's not just you singing. It's also AI Mojin, which is your
20:27essentially digital self or your AI self. So can you tell me about what AI Mojin is and
20:34why you think that that is an interesting creative interplay to essentially collaborate with yourself?
20:40Well, I don't think the way that I've used AI Mojin in this song is particularly creative. Um,
20:44it's kind of a very long winded kind of silly way around to doing things, but I did it as
20:48a statement. Um, and I did it to rile people up, I suppose, and just have, I'd be able to
20:55have this conversation because the song in the beginning, it takes you through this journey
20:59really of what I've experienced over the last four years.
21:03I recognised, I was starting to think about who am I? Um, what am I? What, you know, this
21:09ego, what is it? What's stressing me out? Like, what is it when you get rid of all of that
21:14in, just in breath or in silence or in the noise, what's there? And then I started to
21:20think about AI because, um, what is, what is that, that, that AI isn't? Um, what can,
21:28what can I feel that is something that an AI can't feel? And I kind of got down to these
21:33like bits, these tiny bits. Um, and so the noise section in that song is like the annihilation
21:40of my ego or my, I'm not saying I haven't got an ego. Um, so then I needed, I needed
21:46aftercare after that. I love this idea that AI is our child. AI is something that we are
21:52raising together, uh, as the, as the mother and father, as the, you know, as the, uh, the
21:59adults, um, raising our, this child and what a mess we're doing of that. Um, and, and right
22:07at the end, there's this, there's the AI voice of Mojin. I wanted it to be an AI voice, even
22:12though I had to sing everything. And so I sang all the parts and then I put it through my
22:16AI model so that it's the model of my voice that's then singing the words rather than my
22:21actual voice that I sang. But the melody of it and all the, you know, inflections and
22:25them, all of that is me, but the sound of it, it's like changing the sound on a, on
22:30a keyboard. Yeah. So it's like putting a filter on top of it in a way. So you still
22:35had to do the act of singing. Yeah. I had to do the singing, but it's like changing
22:38out the sound for another sound. So it could have been the trumpet and I wanted to trick
22:43people, you know, into going after all of this music, after all of this, like quite
22:47traumatic noise section that they would, they would feel something and that voice would
22:53not be my voice. It would be AI Mojin's voice. I wanted to create the discussion. I wanted
22:57to, you know, show people that we already don't know, but does it matter? You know, I
23:03mean, I say in the, in the title, it's AI Mojin, but it was all ethically sourced, all
23:08done in the best way possible. And it's my own voice. And I didn't use any, I didn't
23:12generate any music. Of course, everybody has already, some people have already cancelled
23:17me for, you know, even talking or saying that AI is in my music. So many of them were like,
23:23I can't believe Imogen, I'm never listening to you again. You used AI to generate this
23:27song. I was like, no, I did not. I wish that I could have done it because it took me four
23:32years to do it with a hundred thousands of hours. Anyway, so my point is that everybody
23:38is fearful of it, but we can still feel, you know, and what, what is art, you know, art
23:47is something to someone but not to somebody else. But if essentially it speaks to you and
23:51it makes you feel something, does it matter? If it makes you recognise something in yourself,
23:57I mean, essentially all AI is generated from human work. So, and I think that what we'll
24:05end up with over time is the AI models that we do rely and live with will teach us that
24:12we don't need anything else. We don't need this capitalist, horrible world that we have
24:17got to the extreme of. We just need each other to be kind to each other for community, to
24:22care about, you know, we don't need happiness out there. It's not something we can buy a
24:26Porsche, it's not going to make us happy. You know, so the voice right at the end of the
24:31song is actually my daughter's voice and she's the, she has the last word. And that is to say
24:38that, you know, AI Mojin, Scout, AI, they're our children and we need to take care of them and we
24:47need to do a good job of showing them how to do things the way that we would like them to be done,
24:52not how we're currently doing a lot of things.
24:54That's so fascinating. I mean, I love that you've been able to make this model with AI Mojin that is
25:01totally within your control. So you can do with it what you like. I think the thing that gets scary is
25:07when, you know, anyone can manipulate or find anyone's voice model online or train a voice
25:13model based on interviews that people have done in the past and just run with it. I'm wondering in
25:18an age of AI, I wonder how artists will continue to self-curate. I think such an important part of
25:26being an artist is having the taste and the curation to know what you want to say, what songs you want
25:31to put out, what songs you want to keep for yourself, what interviews you want to do, what things you
25:35don't want to do. In an age of AI, it feels like you're losing a lot of control over yourself.
25:42Do you have fears around that?
25:44I mean, we already have lost control. People misquote us constantly, you know, say that
25:49we've written something when we haven't, don't credit us when we have been a part of it. That's
25:53still very much there. So I do actually think this is going to really, it's just going to force us into
25:58creating something that will make sense of what we have already and for the future so that we can put a
26:03flag in the sand as humans and go, okay, up to this point, it was human generated and then there
26:11was like this blurry space and then we figured it out and now you can really discover what is what.
26:17I'm excited because like I have used, other people have also used my voice. There's an artist called
26:23Beretta who's created a great dance track with it and there is an artist called Lucy Hayes who's done a
26:28really amazing song with it too. And you can go to, I have a profile on the DSPs as AI.mojan and you
26:35can see the songs that she, her voice is sung on, including my voice, including my song. But the nice
26:41thing about that is, as I say, you have control. Again, I think it just comes down to this like core
26:46missing piece that we don't have, which is an ID layer, like identifying home for each individual
26:53that I think we'll just have in time anyway, just as much as there's one physical version of you in
26:58the world, even though we'd like there to be more of us. And there's one of me, but there's no digital
27:03one version of me somewhere that I own, that I can, that anyone in the world can go to, to find
27:09de facto information about me, you know, up to the minute if they need to, so that I can express
27:15whatever I want to express in like a kind of umbilical core to anything that I might be connected to
27:21in one instant from one place. Um, I want to be able to do that.
27:26I'm wondering, how are you seeing some of your peers use AI in their musical process that inspire
27:31you? Is there anything interesting you've seen recently?
27:34I'm not seeing any of my peers doing any music with AI. Maybe I've got, I don't know, I just feel
27:39like all my friends, they're just like, we just make music the way we always make music. Um, I'm really
27:46interested in developing Mojen to the point where I can jam on stage with her, where she can train
27:52off my music and she can continue. Like, say if I, as I really do want to do this, like I don't want
27:58to slave away in front of the computer and make tracks like I am for the rest of my life. I don't
28:03want to do that. Like, I really don't want to do that. I would love to find ways to speed up the
28:07process, but not take away any of the creativity. And there are many things you do in the studio or to
28:12prepare plugins or, you know, that you can clean up and you can help AI could help you do some of
28:18that admin or help you identify things that could be similar sounding that you could pull in without
28:24having to go through all the presets. I mean, there are already things that do that. I mean,
28:28Splice, I'm pretty sure I started to do that. I would say that very few artists, I mean, I know
28:33that, um, is it Timberland that's like a lot on Suno? Um, and he's like very, you know, advocating. Um,
28:41and I understand it. It's fun. It's like, it's super fun and it is hard not to go, not to go
28:47there. I had a play, you know, I have had a play and I was like, well, hold on a minute. That's
28:52actually, that's actually really cool. Like I would, I actually might use that, but you have to
28:57stop yourself because I do have, I do want to create standards that, that allow for musicians to be
29:04recognized for the work that they've done, that these, these streaming service, that these, um,
29:07uh, AI models have learned from and hoovered up, but are not in any way caring at the moment,
29:14seemingly about how to solve that problem. And I really want to spend my time helping to solve
29:19that problem, helping to contribute to, you know, attribution for musicians of the past and the now,
29:26um, so that they see themselves in these feature models if they want to, and if they don't, fine.
29:31One of the things that I've heard from AI companies before is that they foresee a time
29:36when pretty much everyone makes music. Um, one person even said to me once, um, that, you know,
29:43back in the day, we could have never foreseen that people would go from, you know, uh, if you wanted
29:48to get your family photographed, you'd have to go to a photographer who was a professional and had the
29:52camera sit down with them at a special place. But now we just take photos on our iPhone. And, uh,
29:58this person was saying that they foresee a time when everyone just gets to make music. It's not
30:03something reserved for musicians anymore, I guess. Um, what's wrong with that? Yeah. Yeah. I'm
30:09wondering what your thoughts are on like the, the, the barrier to entry lowering so that everyone
30:15could feasibly do it. I really, why not? So if you've spent many, like 10,000 hours, whatever,
30:21perfecting your craft, you always have an edge. Um, you know, whether you're, if you generate
30:26anything off these, you know, services right now, you're just going to sound like 99.9999%
30:32of other things that do that too. But if you have an edge, if you have a real something there that
30:37connects with people and you use it differently and you go a little bit further out of your way
30:41and you create something that's genuinely astoundingly good, then that's great. That's
30:45really good. That helps everyone move forward. I don't have a problem with that at all. Like
30:49I said, everyone takes way to write it. We can all put filters on it and clean it out. Um,
30:54the other thing is like, why should music just be reserved for those who, you know, have an
31:00hypothesis to like computers and programming and lessons if you need it and, you know,
31:04all the time and whatever money, I don't know. But I mean, because initially, um, we all used
31:11to sing, but we sang before we spoke. Um, we, we had songs that we would sing and we would
31:18dance and we could move our bodies and we felt that was just the way we expressed ourselves.
31:23And now we're just scared to sing. Um, so I think this is great, you know, if it helps
31:29us connect with our creative inner selves, um, and allows us to feel more at peace with
31:35ourselves because there's something that's, you know, really connecting because it feels
31:40great to make music. Um, then I am definitely for it a hundred percent. I've got no issues
31:46with it. Uh, if anything, it's just gonna, what needs to happen, which will happen in
31:51tandem with it is much better discovery tools to help people see through and hear through
31:57the noise because it is ever so much harder to find the good stuff out there as there are
32:04many, many, many, uh, issues. Well, there's that you don't really know if you're listening
32:09to AI generative music at the moment on, on these platforms. I have come across hundreds
32:15of, uh, generative versions of Headlock, um, and other songs that I've done that are definitely
32:22not human, uh, or largely not human creators as they come up quickly. Um, and you look at
32:27the profiles and you try and find out and there's a, there's all kind of disappears and it's all
32:31like one label and nobody really knows. And then you disappear and, you know, it's just
32:35like, Oh, was it there at all? Um, so there's definitely like weird stuff going on already
32:40and who knows who's benefiting from that? You know, the top level, who knows? Um, so it
32:47is just a mess and I think it's good because it has been a mess forever and now it's just
32:52really showing the problem.
32:54One of the interesting things that I've been thinking about in terms of AI music is it certainly
32:58speeds up the process. So we're going to get more music. Um, especially I think we're
33:03going to see more music ending up on streaming services right now. We already have a hundred
33:07thousand songs being added every day. You know, if we put AI aside and we look at a few years
33:11ago when it was still a similar number of just a mass amount of music coming into the services
33:16every single day, a lot of that music is from totally DIY artists. I think the, the revolution
33:23of DIY brought forth a ton of music, but you know, for the most part, most people aren't listening
33:29to most of it. Some of it's not very well done and that's okay. Uh, you know, they they've
33:33released it. It's a passion project, whatever. Um, but you know, algorithms allow us to navigate
33:40through the hundred thousand songs that are there on Spotify every day. And so as AI comes
33:46in, I think it'll just accelerate that process. We'll definitely have even more songs. Um, but
33:52this is not a new problem. We already have a lot of songs to sort through. So it just has
33:56to get smarter and better. I think what we're going to be able to wrap into it, uh, is the
34:01story of the song. So right now the algorithms are like pitch and tempo and timbre and like
34:07maybe lyrics or dynamic range or that kind of stuff that it's creating algorithms for
34:13us to go, Oh, you might like this. Um, but you might want different ways to search. You
34:19might discover that you like, you know, a particular producer, you know, and if you're lucky, you
34:24might, I don't think you can search via producer at the moment on streaming services, but you
34:28can search obviously through artists, but you can't, you've just about started to be
34:32able to search through composer. Um, but you still have to be registered in a certain way
34:36and not everyone's allowed to be a songwriter composer. I've only, I'm just allowed to be
34:39one even after how many, 30 years I've been doing it. Um, so there's, it's not even at the
34:46basic stuff isn't, isn't sorted. You can't search through drummer or, um, you know, mixing
34:52engineer. Um, but you might discover if you could that, uh, you actually, actually the
34:57reason why you love these songs is because of the arranger or it's because of the particular
35:02way somebody plays a string instrument that, um, kind of inspires the rest of the song for
35:08someone.
35:09Yeah. Yeah. And to kind of pivot the conversation a little bit, you just recently celebrated
35:14the 20th anniversary of Speak for Yourself, which is very exciting. And I mean, it's really
35:20crazy how many times these songs keep coming back up. Um, I really enjoyed Normal People,
35:26um, and the sync placement that A Hide and Seek had in there a couple of years ago. I've
35:32been on TikTok and I keep finding your work there as well. I'm wondering why do you think
35:37this has continued to find new audiences organically over time?
35:41I don't know. Maybe there's the nostalgia. Um, maybe there's something comforting in it.
35:46Um, I don't know. I asked myself the same question. I feel very lucky. Um, I think,
35:53I don't know, maybe it's just a generation of people that 20 years ago, you know, were
35:59just starting out. They were students or whatever. And at that point for them, it meant something
36:05because they heard it in the OC or whatever, however they discovered it. Um, and people like
36:10Ariana Grande, they discovered it then and Taylor that, or they all kind of discovered it then.
36:14And now 20 years later, you know, they're massively famous pop styles and, um, they're
36:18just killing it all around the world. Um, and they're introducing people as well. Um, and the
36:24people that were watching those programs back then, they're in cool jobs and doing different
36:29things. And, you know, so they, they chuck it in because it means something to them. And I'm
36:34finding that not just in the music space, in the, like in the fan space, but in a much smaller
36:41way, I also see it in the industry side. I see the people that were my peers when I was
36:46younger in the industry. We're also coming together going, do you know what? We're going
36:51to, we're doing things differently now. And I'm finding, I'm finding it much easier to
36:55navigate and to help shape the future of this industry because it's a different year.
37:00Groups coming through, basically the old guard are going out and we are able to come together.
37:07I'm like nearly 50 now. And, and it just, it just feels like it's easier and then it'll
37:14feel easier again for the next generation, hopefully, as they learn from our mistakes
37:18and see that there's no point to be rigid and there's no point to be possessive over
37:23things. Nothing fun comes from that, just more pain.
37:27Yeah. Yeah. Earlier you were touching on, um, like the music industry and things turning
37:31over. Um, and one of the things I find really interesting about Speak for Yourself is that
37:36it was first release, I didn't realize this until very recently, that it was released
37:40independently, um, which was probably not a very easy thing to do back then. It's now
37:45become so much more popular to be an independent artist and to find success that way. I'm wondering,
37:51looking back on it, um, how do you think it compares being an independent artist now versus
37:56when you released that album 20 years ago?
37:58Um, I feel like I was in a sweet spot because it was just as the industry was going, um, digital
38:05and streaming and there was iTunes had come out just literally a month or two before Speak
38:11for Yourself happened. And there was only one front window. There was like, now there's like
38:1550 revolving windows and God knows. And I got lucky and I got chosen, my album got chosen
38:22to be the album of the week on iTunes. And I was like, how did this happen? You know,
38:28I'm a nobody. I'm like, I, I just couldn't believe it that you, I thought you'd have to
38:33pay for that spot, but I did release the record myself. It was independent and I ingested it
38:38myself. I still have an account for the Apple, even though I shouldn't, um, um, because I was
38:43one of the first. And so I sent a message to the, to iTunes, uh, like info at iTunes or whatever.
38:49And I was like, hello, uh, just a message to say thank you to whoever put my song, my album
38:55on the front page. I think it was maybe the UK iTunes. And I was like, thank you so much. We
39:00don't know how much this means to me. And I got a message back from this guy, um, called Denzel
39:05Fegelson. Um, and he's, he was the boss at the time. Uh, and he was like, do you know what? No one's
39:10ever thanked us. Would you like to come into the offices? And I was like, yes, I will. Uh, so I went
39:15into the offices. I met Pete Downton, who was like one of the first digital streaming, um, gave the
39:23music to streaming companies like Spotify before they had their own way to do that. And I went to
39:27there, I was the first artist in the office. So I have this, like, I was at a lucky point where there
39:33wasn't that much going on. Um, you were either with a label or you weren't. Um, and I, and I reached
39:38this point where people were like, wow, an actual artist is coming into the office. This is weird.
39:43There's not a music executive and it, it really worked in my favor. Um, and it was much less scary
39:49to do independent than to go again with a major label. It was just, it just tore me apart every
39:55time they just made a terrible job of, of not promoting it or promoting it. A good job of not
40:01promoting it. Yeah. Cause Fru Fru was on a major label, right? And that's, uh, then you were dropped
40:06after that and you went independent. My first album was called I Make Your Phone. My second album was
40:10Fru Fru with Guy. And then, um, Fru Fru, they decided they didn't want to make another
40:16Fru Fru record. And I was like, fine. Um, they're like, but we'd like to make an image
40:21in a heap record. And I was like, no, thank you. Um, you literally, you couldn't have made
40:26a bigger mess of such a great record. Like we absolutely thought the details was one of
40:30the best things ever. Um, and now just so many other people think that, but at the time they
40:35were like, no, no, didn't get onto radio one. It's not, it's not going to be as big as
40:39sugar babes. And they didn't like give us any airtime tool or any, any support. And
40:44they've, they've made us try and come up with some hits and put on the record. It was just
40:47so, so much fun. Um, so in the end I was like, can you please just let me go? Cause
40:53I just can't, I just don't want to do this. I don't want to do it. And I think they thought
40:57fine. Um, off we go then. I just said, I'll give you first refusal, which I didn't, but
41:01they didn't care anyway. Uh, they were just probably happy to get rid of me. Um, and then
41:06it was just so much easier. I basically remortgaged my flat. I took a hundred grand
41:11out cause it had grown in value over, it's this small flat in Waterloo over a year. And
41:16that was the only way I could get any money. I did try the banks, but they didn't want
41:19to get any money. So I remortgaged my flat and then I, I bought all the studio equipment
41:24and I did it for a year. And then I could have gone with a major label then, but I was
41:29like, I'm going to do it myself. Like I'm going to bring all the people that I've met from
41:33all the labels and all the times. And I'm going to bring in my best crew and we're going
41:37to do it together. I'm going to pay them. And I'm still going to earn way more than I
41:40would have ever done if I'd signed to a record label. Um, and I only just, you know, Fru
41:46Fru was released 25 years ago, I think. And I've only just seen royalties from the album.
41:53Wow.
41:53Only just, we've only just recouped. Isn't that crazy?
41:56That is crazy.
41:57Wow. That is hard to believe. I mean, also that Fru Fru record is incredible and to think
42:03that it wasn't enough at the time for this label is, is hard to believe. Um, it's one
42:10that I really enjoy listening to, to this day. And I know a lot of other people keep, you
42:15know, finding it again. I mean, the streaming numbers are crazy. I think it's always interesting
42:19to look at a streaming service and an album that was released before streaming and see how
42:23it does. Cause some of them just don't fare that well and that's okay. Um, but to have
42:28an album that is still being streamed that much, um, from what 25 years ago or so is, is
42:34really remarkable. Um, but it's, it's, it's amazing now, um, in 2025, how many artists are
42:41waiting to sign longer. They're getting better deals because they have the ability to be
42:45independent. I'm curious, like if you think you were coming up now, do you think you would
42:49have also still chosen that independent path? Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah. I'd really do
42:55not, don't sign a major label deal. Like basically everyone who signs a major label deal after
43:02about a year, they're like, how do I get out of this deal? How long have I got? How many
43:06more albums do I have to do before I could get out of this deal? Every artist knows that
43:10it's a stepping stone to becoming independent. It's not, it's not the place to end up. You
43:14know, it's just, you've got to make the best deal that you possibly can. Um, they're always
43:19going to give you the worst deal. Uh, even if you think it might be good because of the
43:24way they've read it. Um, and also you don't know what they're doing, especially in terms
43:29of AI training, giving over licenses to what you, we don't know what they're doing. We don't
43:35know. Um, it's not in our, it wasn't in our, I mean, I'm not signed to Sony anymore,
43:39thank goodness, but, um, they, at the time I was, I was actually like two years ago when
43:44they still had licenses of my stuff. I was writing letters. I was like, do not in any
43:48event, give my music to AI companies. Do not, do not, do not do this. Otherwise I'll
43:54take you to court. Um, and, uh, I think I might message that somewhere on a open
44:00letter. I can't remember. I didn't really get any replies. Um, at all. It was very
44:05suspiciously quiet. Um, but I did hear that backroom deals were being done at major
44:10labels with AI companies and that they were doing discussions and I, I don't know what
44:15they've done, but I'm glad to not be in it anymore. Yeah. I mean, I do think it's very
44:19interesting about, uh, record contracts as you sign it. And, um, they usually have some
44:24sort of a clause that leaves the door open for technology in the future that can't be
44:28foreseen at this moment. Um, which I understand why they do it, but it does leave instances
44:34like this. I mean, who could have foreseen, um, generative AI in this form? And that's something
44:38that I think about a lot with, um, legacy artists or artists who are deceased. Um,
44:44I've reported on some estates, um, offering the voice rights of a person who's been passed
44:51away for like 10, 20 years, uh, to AI companies. And I always wonder like if they could have even
44:57foreseen that generative AI would be a thing, how would they feel about this use? And unfortunately
45:02we'll never know. Um, but yeah, I think, yeah, it's tricky, isn't it? Uh, I guess
45:06they're dead. I don't care. Um, but yeah, if it's the family, then they'd probably just
45:12be like, yeah, sure. Of course I'm dead. Do what you like. Yeah. Um, that, that would
45:15be my, that would be my stance.
45:17One more thing I wanted to ask you before we start wrapping it up. I, I wanted to ask
45:21you about the gloves, the Mimu gloves. I absolutely love those. Um, there's something
45:26that Ariana Grande has used on stage quite a lot. They're really wonderful to see in, um,
45:31everyone's different hands, I guess. Um, are you still iterating on that and improving
45:36it? Or do you feel like the product is done as is?
45:39No, we're still, we're still iterating. Um, we have, we have a batch that's going to be
45:45delivered hopefully before the end of the year, uh, to like a few hundred people. Um, we
45:50haven't yet managed to get them on the shelf. Um, they're, they're not, you know, they're
45:55very, very good quantity, the best in the world, uh, for creating music. Um, and there's,
46:03they're expensive. They're like two and a half grand a pair. So, you know, it's like
46:07buying a, it's like buying a computer, but they are, they're expensive because they're
46:12basically like tiny team. We're doing our best to make them, you know, as best we can
46:17as cheaply as we can, but we're not like a mass, you know, we're not making millions
46:21of these things. So it is still expensive. And a lot of people, that's obviously a big
46:26barrier. Um, and it's a, it's a leap to go to, you know, make music gesturally, even
46:31though it feels totally natural when you do it. Um, so we are missing out on the people
46:36who the impulse buys, cause it's like, Oh, I want to do that. I'm going to buy that.
46:40Yeah. And then they hit buy and then they're going to get it stay and then they're going
46:43to love it. But then it's like, Oh, wait a minute, I'm not going to get it three months
46:46or maybe six months cause there's takes on that. And then they don't buy it. Yeah. Our problem
46:50really is that we need to have enough capital in advance to buy them, to get them on the
46:54shelf. And then I think we could see a lot, we'll see a lot more people buying them cause
46:57you can't, you can't get credit for something if it doesn't exist. Um, so once we can create
47:03a way where they're on the shelf, then people can pay over time over a couple of years or
47:07whatever. It's much more easy to stomach. Um, but we're just, we're a tiny company and
47:11we haven't taken investment other than like friends and other musicians, tiny bits. Um, because
47:17we just want to do it our way, you know? Um, so we're hopeful that we can find a way to
47:23get it on the shelf. Um, because I do think we haven't seen the end of it yet really, even
47:29though it's been really hard and we didn't have a big chat the other day. Um, but there's
47:33nothing else like them. You know, I know you can do it with the computer therapy. You've
47:36seen videos of people using touch design or whatever, and just kind of, you know, using
47:40the IR, the camera and creating gestures and doing it in front of your computer. We know you
47:44can do that. You can do that with us too, but with the Glover software, but there's
47:48nothing like being away from the computer, being in the garden and making music with
47:54the trees. Uh, you've got, I've got a wireless microphone. I've got my in-ear headset and
47:58I'm just out in the garden making music with whatever I want to make it with. Or I can
48:03go into the studio or I can go into the, by the piano or on stage. And it's just that
48:07freedom, um, of being able to conjure music in real time, in real whatever space and
48:13not be in front of the camera.
48:15This has been such an interesting discussion. I'm going to end it off with some quick, like
48:19rapid fire questions, and then we'll do our, our playlist.
48:24I might not get rapid fire answers, but I'll do my next.
48:26Okay. Okay. Just a couple of words per answer and we'll see, we'll see how it goes.
48:30Okay. Um, not myself.
48:31Who is an artist that you view as an innovator?
48:34Uh, Team Exile.
48:35Okay. A song from Speak for Yourself that you look back on with great pride.
48:39Uh, Hide and Seek.
48:44Yeah. The coolest way that someone has paid homage to your work.
48:48I don't know. I really liked hearing, uh, like Kazoo version of Hide and Seek.
48:53Um, I love that.
48:55I don't know. I mean, no, Ariana Grande, um, when she did, uh, Goodnight Ngo. Uh, and she like,
49:02I love it. I love that she did that. I went on tour and I did my version of her version of my song.
49:06Um, and no, I really liked the way she did that. She's so generous. She really just has continuously
49:14shared the love, uh, and always supported me. And she's just like enormous. She just has such
49:23integrity. All the things she's been through. I think she's so talented. I really, I know I'm
49:28going to work. We are going to actually do something together one day, one day. We both said it. It's
49:32just, we've got to find the right thing at the right time so that we can really enjoy it. And it's not
49:36just something like, but it's got to be, but you know, at the same time, it's like, you don't want
49:40to build it up so much. And then we never do it. Cause it's like, it's going to be the perfect time.
49:45Um, but I really, really want to work with Ariana. I think, um, she's fucking great.
49:50Yeah, she is. What's the best film TV use of your song Hide and Seek?
49:54I mean, obviously the OC, um, cause that was the first one. But, um, I think the, the most
50:00intriguing one was the Saturday Night Live skit, um, because they didn't ask permission.
50:05Um, they just, they just did it. And quite a lot of people had seen the OC, but way more
50:10people saw that skit and then, well, didn't even know where it came, you know, did know where
50:16it came from, I suppose, but didn't, didn't know about the song. It was like too many steps
50:18removed at that point. And this was one, it was one, it ended up being one of the first
50:22memes, uh, on the internet. Uh, people just did, um, what'd you say? And just all different
50:28kind of like Simpsons version, all, all different versions of it. Um, and I don't think it was
50:34an official Simpsons version, but people just, you know, edit stuff up. Um, and it was amazing.
50:39It was amazing to see, but that was before monetization, sadly on YouTube. So there were
50:43like billions and billions of, uh, bits of this song, but I think it like goes under the
50:48radar of monetization because it's not quite 30 seconds, but otherwise it'd be like, I'd be
50:51like a total million in it. Um, yeah.
50:55That really is too bad that it was just a little early on the YouTube thing, but, um, I think
51:00that song still has a lot of legs online. There are still people using it all the time.
51:04Um, who is an artist who counts, well, actually you kind of answered this. It'd be Ariana.
51:10Um, an artist who counts you as an inspiration that you enjoy listening to yourself?
51:16Well, yeah. Ariana. Um, I don't know. I mean, I heard, like, I really heard this person's
51:24music recently called Blaron, not Dan, sorry, uh, Data Cluster. Um, and he was like totally
51:29excited. So, and I really like his music. Well, I discover lots of people that, that I'm
51:34like, wow, I love this person's music. And then I think like, there's no way they're going
51:37to know me because I'm just not cool enough. And then like, no, I really actually like that.
51:40I'm like their guilty pleasure. Um, which I find a little bit like, huh, how can I be a guilty
51:45pleasure? I went not cool enough. Um, but I'm very lucky. I, I seem to find fans in all
51:51kinds of like unexpected places like, you know, extreme heavy metal rock bands or noise artists
51:57or hip hop or clap rap or, you know, just, you know, just, it's just, it's mad how cross
52:07genre, um, the music gets, uh, really love that. I feel, I feel so lucky really to have, yeah,
52:14know people from all over and just feel like it's a possibility really hopefully to work
52:20with anyone. If I, if I really want to do, maybe I couldn't, I don't know. Um, but there's
52:25so many people I want to work with. I just, I don't want to sit in front of the computer
52:29and write music in the way that I have done over the last 30 years, just like solitary
52:33mixing and just moving bits of audio around. I have to find another way. And I know there
52:37obviously are other ways that you can do modular. You can, you can work with a band and that
52:42I've just become a slave of my own technique really. And that's why I really want to develop
52:46the live system with the Mimi gloves, with generative AI of, of Mojen, but under an acceptable
52:53level of AI generative work so that I can conjure lyrics in real time with my own brain in real
53:00time. Um, but also maybe with the, the temperature or how many people in the room changes the way
53:07that the melody moves around or that the, how fast the chords move depending on how close
53:12the album you are. I just, I want to create music in real time in a very different way
53:16than I ever have. And that's really what I'll spend my time on.
53:19Exciting. Well, um, okay. So the final thing of our interview is the playlist part. So we
53:24always ask everyone on, on the record to help make me a playlist. What is a song you can no
53:29longer gatekeep? We'll just start there. What's a song that you're loving right now that
53:33you want more people to know about? I really do love, uh, this album by Blauen called Sick
53:40Elixir. Uh, Sick Elixir. I nearly had a car crash cause I was driving and I've been waiting
53:45to hear it in the car so I could hear it, not just on like my headphones or in a wherever
53:48I wanted to hear it like loud. And so I played it and I had, I had a car journey enough time
53:54and I, oh my God, I knew, I just couldn't believe how good it was. It just, I was like,
53:58I was swearing. I was like, if somebody looked in the car, they would be like, what the
54:02hell's that one doing? I was like going, oh my God, this is amazing. I was just like,
54:07I couldn't believe how good it was. I was just laughing. Just, I was like a gift being
54:11possessed. Um, so the whole album is absolutely amazing. But if I, I can't really choose on
54:16cause I've, I liked all of them. Um, but I don't know. I like it. There's one called
54:20dot, dot, dot, NOS.
54:22What is a favorite throwback of yours? So a song over 10 years old.
54:26When I was like 17 in Camden, when I was, you know, starting out, um, there was this
54:32band called Acacia. Um, and one half of it was Guy Sixworth who obviously we turned into
54:38being Foo Foo. But the album that, um, that they made Acacia, um, is so good. And I think
54:44that one of the tracks that I love the most was called Maddening Shroud. So I'd check that
54:50out. It's from the nineties. So long ago.
54:53I'll have to check that one out. And last but not least, what is a guilty pleasure for
54:57you?
54:58Um, well, I just, it feels a bit weird to say it because it's not really like a guilty
55:02pleasure, but it kind of is. And I talked about this person earlier, this, this, uh,
55:06artist called Data Cluster and I found them on, uh, you know, on this random playlist.
55:11And I was, I was, I was a little bit thinking that they might have been AI generative between
55:16some artists that I love. So the guilty feeling is like, but I love Max Cooper and I love
55:22John Hopkins and they're like my, I like know them. Um, and there's such echoes of their
55:27music in this that I feel slightly uncomfortable about because it is so to the T, uh, but the
55:34melodies and it's not, it's not their music at all. It's just Data Cluster, um, absolutely
55:40idolizes these artists and has studied them meticulously to the point where he just knows
55:45how to get those sounds. I just would not have the patience to do that. Um, I'm just like,
55:49oh fuck it. I'm just going to make it sound like this. Um, so I guess my guilty pleasure
55:54in a way is that, because I would like to talk to John and, and Max and see how they
55:57feel. Maybe they're like, no, it doesn't sound anything like me. Why would you think
56:00that sounds like me? I'm like, oh, sorry. Huh? Um, so the one that I found on this playlist,
56:05I'm going to try and find the name of it, Circa 13, it's had under a thousand plays on
56:10Spotify. Um, and he's got 899 monthly listeners, but I was like, this is just great. And I really
56:18liked it. And I was listening to it a lot and I got in touch with him. I think he lives
56:22in LA, might meet up with him when I go to NAMM in January. Um, but yeah, Data Cluster
56:27and the track that I heard was called Circa 13, but it comes off his debut album. Um, I
56:33believe, which is called Coalescence.
56:36Awesome. Okay. I'll check it out.
56:38It's really nice.
56:39Well, thank you so much, Imogen Heap, for coming to the show. This has been so much fun.
56:43And I love talking AI with you and you'll have to come back soon. Thank you.
56:47Thank you. My pleasure.
56:49All right. Another big thank you to Imogen Heap for coming on the show today and sharing
56:53her insights with us. It's really good to get a pulse on how an artist is feeling about
56:56AI right now, especially one who is still very hopeful about the future. Up next, we're
57:01going to be diving into our charts roundup where we'll highlight this week's biggest
57:05movers and shakers. Here is the top 10 of the Hot 100 chart for the week of November 22nd.
57:10Rising to number 10 this week is Back to Friends by Sombra.
57:16Number 9 is I Got Better by Morgan Wallen.
57:22Number 8 is Folded by Kehlani.
57:28Number 7 this week is Mutt by Leon Thomas.
57:336 this week is Daisies by Justin Bieber.
57:36Opalite by Taylor Swift comes in at number 5.
57:44Man I Need by Olivia Dean rises to number 4.
57:50Number 3 again this week is Ordinary by Alex Warren.
57:56Golden by Huntrix comes in at number 2 again this week.
58:00And finally, the number 1 song on the Billboard Hot 100 chart for the week of November 22nd
58:07for its 6th week at number 1 is The Fate of Ophelia by Taylor Swift.
58:13Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of On the Record.
58:15And another special thank you to my guest Imogen Heap for coming on the show.
58:19And if you liked today's show, please consider hitting us with a rating, a follow, a thumbs up.
58:24All those things really help a show like ours to grow and to reach new people.
58:28Again, I'm your host Kristen Robinson and tune in next week
58:31for another peek behind the curtain of the music business.
58:34I'll see you then.
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