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In this episode of Billboard On The Record, Grammy-winning songwriter Amy Allen joins host Kristin Robinson to talk about her path into songwriting, from her early hits with Selena Gomez and Halsey to collaborating with today’s biggest artists. She opens up about the decline of pitch records, her relationship with Sabrina Carpenter and how songwriters are adapting to a world driven by TikTok moments. Allen shares her thoughts on hard work, what truly makes a star and why she doesn’t listen to pop radio anymore.
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00:00Hello, and welcome to On the Record, a new music business podcast from Billboard and Zippard Productions.
00:05I'm your host, Kristen Robinson, and today we are joined by Amy Allen, perhaps the most in-demand pop songwriter out there today.
00:14In just a few years, she's written top hot 100 hits like Espresso, Without Me, APT, Greedy, Adore You, Graveyard, Please, Please, Please, and so many more.
00:26She was the first woman to ever earn the award for Grammy's Songwriter of the Year, and most recently, she helped Sabrina Carpenter create her latest Billboard No. 1 album, Man's Best Friend, writing every single song on the record.
00:39I wanted to have Amy on here today to talk about what a career really looks like as a top songwriter, and how the role of a songwriter is changing, and who would be better to do that than Amy.
00:50So, without further ado, please welcome to the show, Amy Allen.
00:56Amy Allen, welcome to On the Record. Thanks so much for being here.
01:01Thanks for having me.
01:02I wanted to start off this conversation about kind of life as a modern songwriter in 2025 with going back to where it all began for you.
01:12So, you grew up in Maine.
01:14Crumb, Maine.
01:14Yeah, you famously went to nursing school for a hot sec.
01:18I did. Big mistake. Not cut out for it.
01:21Wait, so how long did you last there?
01:23Two years.
01:24Wait, what?
01:24Two years too long.
01:25Oh, I was thinking this was like a semester.
01:27It was long.
01:28Wow.
01:28It was long.
01:29Do you remember anything?
01:31You know, I kind of remember, like, where to take people's pulses.
01:34Like, really, all the places on the body where you can find a pulse.
01:37I mean, two years is right when you get to the part where you, like, go into actual clinical places, and I left before that because I was certainly not cut out to be in any hospital setting.
01:46Wow. Wow. Okay.
01:48And then you went to Berkeley.
01:49Went to Berkeley.
01:50Okay. Did you graduate?
01:51I did, but I was only there for two and a half years because I did, I had already done, like, so many courses at Boston College where I was from nursing.
01:58So I got all of those transferred, and I just got to focus on the music stuff when I was there.
02:01So I did it in, like, a short amount of time.
02:03But I did.
02:04Famously, it's not cool to graduate from Berkeley.
02:06Yeah.
02:07I haven't met that many people who graduated.
02:09I actually, I applied there, and I almost went.
02:12Like, I got a roommate.
02:13I was ready to go.
02:15What happened?
02:15Well, so I found out on, like, some government forum, like, they listed the graduation rate for Berkeley, and it was 49%.
02:22Parents were like, nah.
02:23Yeah, and my parents were like, you're going to finish.
02:26My friends that didn't graduate are because they were, like, doing what they love to do already.
02:29Yeah.
02:29Yeah.
02:30Okay, that's true.
02:31That's true.
02:32So from there, you went to New York, right?
02:35I lived in Boston for a year after I graduated.
02:38Okay.
02:38With my band, was playing a ton of shows, working at Lululemon, trying to save up enough money, and then I moved to New York.
02:43Okay.
02:44Wow.
02:44And that's when everything kind of changed.
02:45Okay.
02:46So what was kind of that light bulb moment for you as a songwriter?
02:50I basically had the band, and I went into a record label meeting.
02:57The dream was, like, to get the band signed.
02:59And they were playing music over the loudspeakers.
03:02It was that very awkward moment where everybody's, like, stopping and listening, and you're sitting there listening to your own songs on the loudspeakers.
03:07And I just had this real, like, come to Jesus moment where I was like, you're not good enough.
03:11I'm just like, this isn't good enough.
03:13Wow.
03:13And as much as I loved performing and being with my friends and doing the band thing, I was like, how could I ask them to believe in it if I don't believe in it yet?
03:20So I, after that meeting, like, ended the band.
03:23I was just, like, exited the band and went into songwriting, like, meeting as many songwriters as I could and getting put into a lot of sessions.
03:31And I met this guy, Scott Harris, who became a really good friend of mine, who is a really big songwriter still.
03:38And, yeah, everything kind of went from there.
03:41And then there was a moment when you wrote a melody for something that became a Selena Gomez songwriter.
03:47Tell me about that experience, because that sounds like probably your first real sizable cut.
03:51That was the first tech one, yeah.
03:52I was going through something, like, this relationship had been this, like, tumultuous thing for, like, years and years of my life.
03:59And it was this kind of, like, realization that I, like, kept going back to this person.
04:03No matter who else I was meeting, I would, like, keep going back to him and whatever.
04:07We kind of had this, like, moment in New York and it all just kind of, like, came to a head.
04:10And that night, I just, like, I don't know, was aimlessly singing around my apartment and did the melody of what became a Selena Gomez song.
04:19And so the next morning I went into my session, I brought that melody in, wrote it with a couple friends of mine.
04:25And then it found its way to Selena through my phenomenal manager and other people.
04:31That was, like, the massive turning point in my career, where then I moved to L.A. and signed a publishing deal.
04:35And that's what I've been doing since then.
04:37So that was a pitch record, which one of the things I do at Billboard, one of my big focuses, is publishing and songwriting.
04:44And so as part of that, I feel like I keep hearing, I've heard since the day I started here, that pitch records are becoming less and less popular.
04:52So I'm wondering for you, like, what do you think that means for songwriters who are coming up, that there are less opportunities for pitch records?
04:59And meaning a pitch song is when the artist isn't in the room.
05:02I think it means two things.
05:03The first thing feels like it would be harder for songwriters to get into the door because my first two songs that changed my trajectory of my career were pitch records.
05:13That Selena Gomez song and a Halsey song called Without Me.
05:17That changed everything for me.
05:18And I wouldn't have gotten to go into the room with those artists at that time in my career because I was, you know, I didn't have any track record of writing songs.
05:26So it's a little bit like, okay, you feel like two arms are being tied behind your back as a new songwriter where, you know, the pitch game is not as strong as it used to be.
05:33And artists are wanting to be in the room and writing with the songwriters.
05:37It also lends to, like, really exciting songs now where, you know, the artists are infusing every part of their life into these songs.
05:44And that's really exciting.
05:45And I think the other thing that could be seen as a positive is that now big songs are coming from everywhere.
05:50Like, when I was coming up in songwriting seven or eight years ago, TikTok wasn't a thing.
05:56Like, people weren't exploding off of TikTok.
05:58And so now there are a lot more ways for songwriters to get into the door of people at early phases in their career because they, you know, they might find them on TikTok or however they find them.
06:07So there's pros and cons.
06:09Yeah.
06:09Oh, that's interesting.
06:10Like, TikTok is a discovery platform not just for artists but also for aspiring songwriters.
06:14Right.
06:15Like, collaborators.
06:16And I think it just goes to show that an amazing song can come from anywhere.
06:19It's not like we're just being told by, you know, the radio programmers who the big artists are of today.
06:25Yeah, that's true.
06:27Obviously, TikTok is, like, very focused on short soundbites within songs.
06:30Yeah.
06:30Do you think that that has impacted any of the sessions that you've been in where people are kind of trying to game a song to fit a TikTok mold?
06:37I think it definitely subconsciously goes into the brains of a lot of us because we are getting fed content that is really short and really quick and constantly it's just being fed and fed and fed to us.
06:49But I will say that the songs and the artists that I love the most are the ones that push against how consumption is going right now.
06:56And I feel like most of the artists that I work with are really striving and falling in love with, like, the long form of, like, doing a full album and not caring if a song is four minutes and 50 seconds long versus, like, a two minute, 40 second.
07:08You know?
07:09Yeah.
07:09I feel like a lot of people are pushing against it in a way that's exciting and bringing music back to, you know, why we all love music, which is honesty and not caring if it's, like, a catchy 20-second bit.
07:20You know, it's a story, so.
07:22Yeah.
07:23And I mean, what you're saying about, like, longer songs, one of the benefits of right now is that because you don't have radio programmers who are like, it needs to be three minutes, 30 seconds, or we're not playing it.
07:33Right.
07:33There is a little bit more freedom to play around with the outro of a song if you wanted to and just lengthen it out and have fun with it or, you know, whatever.
07:40And I think something that's really exciting about right now is, of course, because so many artists are in the rooms now writing their own songs with songwriters.
07:47There's so much personality in all these songs, and I feel like the walls have been kind of broken down of, like, what a pop song should be.
07:54And there's so many, at least what I love as a songwriter in today's world is that, like, eight years ago, if there had been a key change in a song that I was a part of, people would have been like, the public isn't going to understand that.
08:06They're not going to want that.
08:07If there are too many chords going on, they won't get it.
08:09If there's, like, a witty lyric, like, you know, that's not okay.
08:13Like, that's not for a pop thing.
08:14And now it feels like there's no rules in pop music right now.
08:18It's just, I think, a really exciting place to be.
08:20Yeah, yeah.
08:21One of the things that I really love about Sabrina Carpenter's work, which you've worked on extensively, congratulations on Man's Best Friend, is that she is witty and she is humorous.
08:31And I feel like for a long time, it was really hard to find any humor in pop music.
08:36Totally, I know.
08:36I feel like for a long time, the only place where I could regularly find someone who is good at writing witty or funny lyrics were maybe, like, rappers like a Lil Wayne or something like that.
08:46Yeah, totally.
08:46Like, he has great one-liners.
08:48But I didn't really see it much in pop.
08:51So you think that, like, the reason why maybe, like, people are able to kind of express their personalities more is just maybe the democratization that we live in now?
08:59And maybe because of social media, fans are really getting to, like, live with their favorite artists.
09:06Like, they're getting, there's so many contact points for them to be and get to know with their favorite artists.
09:12And I think that allows for artists to feel like, okay, I'm, like, going to really express myself.
09:17And Sabrina, I have to give her, like, so many props for being vulnerable enough and really, like, walking out on these branches that are scary and being like, here's my entire personality.
09:27Here's who I am and, like, shamelessly doing her thing.
09:30And I think it says so much about, you know, the general public that they eat that up.
09:36And I feel like it's really refreshing.
09:38It's not feel like somebody's putting on this front of, like, I'm a pop star and everything is perfect.
09:42I've never done anything wrong.
09:43It's really, like, engaging to have somebody that you idolize as a pop artist and feel like she's just like you in so many ways.
09:50Yeah.
09:50Yeah, that's very true.
09:51So I'm wondering, like, have you ever seen fans online dissecting lyrics that you've written and getting it completely wrong or being like, I think this means Sabrina's talking about this.
10:02And it's, like, totally not.
10:03With every artist that I work with, that happens.
10:05And it's funny.
10:06It's honestly fun.
10:06I'm, like, it's nice to see how people can read certain situations.
10:10And even if it's, like, a negative read on it, it's nice to see, like, oh, that person reacted like this and I would have never read that or react.
10:17You know, it's just, it's interesting.
10:18Yeah.
10:18It's, I think it's enlightening.
10:20It makes me love songwriting even more because I'm, like, there's, everybody can take away endless things from songs.
10:26Is there any, like, particular examples of when you've seen that happen?
10:30I mean, so many.
10:32I think the thing, my major takeaway of that is how I feel invigorated by people falling in love with songwriting again and the people behind the songs and how fans of music are, like, really starting to respect and be excited about songwriters.
10:46Yeah.
10:46And I see that on the internet all the time now where people are, like, this songwriter wrote this and this and part of this.
10:53And it's, like, it's really exciting that songwriters are having that shine.
10:56And it's, I get to see so many of my friends be discovered in real time by fans of music.
11:01And it's really cool, I think.
11:02So, someone has listened to kind of the This is Amy Allen playlist or the Written by Amy Allen playlist.
11:08Like, what are some of the through lines that you can tell from your own songwriting catalog that are kind of, like, characteristic Amy Allen-isms?
11:15Hmm.
11:17That's so hard for me to identify myself.
11:20I have people all the time be like, oh, I heard this and I knew it was you immediately.
11:24But I don't know.
11:25I think, honestly, my favorite thing is connecting with an emotion and telling that as, like, honestly and truthfully as I can.
11:33And whether that's my personal story or the artist's personal story, just, like, finding a new way to say that.
11:39And I feel like when I listen back to my favorite songs that I've been a part of, that thing holds true in all of them.
11:44Where it's, like, there's a clear storytelling, like, through line to the entire thing and an emotion that's being hit at and every step of the way.
11:51So, I feel like I love that about a lot of the songs that I've been a part of.
11:55But I don't know.
11:55A lot of people say things melodically, too.
11:57Like, they can tell.
11:58It's, like, a melodic thing.
12:00But I don't know.
12:01Yeah.
12:01Yeah.
12:02So, what are some of your favorite songs that you've been a part of?
12:06Oh, my gosh.
12:07Or let's just name one.
12:08It changes everything.
12:09It doesn't have to be the utmost favorite.
12:11But just, like, one that has, like, really good memories attached.
12:13I love Matilda that I did with Harry.
12:15Great song.
12:16I really will always love that song.
12:18I think that song means so much to me.
12:19And getting to make that with him was, like, one of the highlights of my entire career.
12:24I love Please, Please, Please because I love how many boundaries that pushes as, like, a pop, big radio song.
12:31Like, when we were writing that, I don't think anybody in a million years would have been, like, this is going to be a hit.
12:36Like, it just felt like we were following some emotion that we all loved.
12:39And we were all on the same train and riding it together and not knowing exactly where it was going.
12:44And we came out with something that felt so new and exciting.
12:47And to see the public react in a way that they did to that and make it a pop hit is so cool.
12:53Yeah.
12:53That's one of those hits where immediately upon, like, you know, the first listen, you just know that it is a special and very different song for a pop star to be.
13:00Yeah, it's so musical, which, like, I feel like a lot of people wouldn't even pick up on the fact that there's, like, key changes happening and how, like, rangy that song is to sing.
13:10It's, like, an impossible song to sing.
13:11And she does it so flawlessly.
13:13And, yeah, I don't know.
13:14I love so many things about that song.
13:16I was just doing some research on you before I did this interview.
13:19Terrified.
13:21Don't be terrified.
13:22It's very basic stuff.
13:23Don't be terrified.
13:23Yeah, one of the things that I was reading about is you told one of my colleagues at Billboard that you don't listen to pop radio.
13:32I try not to.
13:33And I thought that was really interesting as someone who makes pop radio hits often.
13:37So what's the rationale behind that?
13:40I think I did.
13:42I started not listening.
13:44I mean, of course, as a human being on the earth, when I walk outside, like, I will hear the new, you know, whoever has the big song at that moment.
13:51Like, you can't escape big pop radio hits until you walk and you hear them everywhere.
13:55But I think, like, maybe my second year living in LA when I moved here, I was doing, like, two sessions a day.
14:01And I entered this phase, which so many songwriter friends of mine, we've all talked about it, where you kind of feel like you're in the passenger seat of this big, you know, bad, like, car ride that's going up, like, what pop music is.
14:12Okay.
14:12You kind of get, like, swept into this, like, well, this is what's cool right now.
14:16And so we're chasing after this and my influences for the song today are these three songs that are on the radio right now.
14:22And you just kind of lose yourself in, like, trying to chase trend.
14:26And it really, like, messed with my brain for, like, a year where I was just, like, how do I get out of this?
14:31And then I realized kind of during COVID where I, like, really went back and, like, started to fall back in love with the songs that I grew up listening to and my favorite artists that made me fall in love with music for the first place.
14:41I was, like, I need to be continuously inspired by things that are not happening right this second.
14:46But it's good for me to know what's happening because a lot of my friends have made the songs that are happening.
14:51Yeah, yeah.
14:51You want to support your friends.
14:52Of course, I want to support them.
14:53It's good to just have a pulse on it.
14:55But I like to be inspired by things that are not happening right now.
14:59Yeah.
14:59And then I have found that that allows me to tap into something that makes something sound much different than what's happening right now.
15:05And those are the songs that excite me the most is when it feels like something that shouldn't be popular right now.
15:10And then it becomes popular.
15:11Yeah.
15:11That's how you become the trendsetter instead of being in the passenger seat.
15:14Yeah, passenger seat is not my favorite place to be.
15:17Yeah.
15:18Yeah.
15:18No, I get that.
15:19So what were some of those early influences that you found yourself going back to?
15:23A lot of Tom Petty.
15:25Okay.
15:25Like, a lot of Tom Petty, a lot of Dolly, of, I mean, John Prine, ABBA, Rolling Stones, Stevie Nicks, like, Always and Forever, Paul McCartney.
15:37Just, like, bands and artists that my dad would play in the car when I was little in Maine driving around.
15:42And, like, that were really just, like, emotion core, you know?
15:46Yeah.
15:46There wasn't a ton of frill.
15:47They were, like, played live.
15:49And, like, every lyric had to be there for the song to make sense.
15:52Yes.
15:52And I, that's what made me fall in love with music is, like, being hit really hard in the chest of, like, oh, I understand exactly what that person is feeling.
15:59Mm-hmm.
16:00Yeah.
16:00And it's not just some, like, catchy loop with, like, somebody talking about nonsense or, you know?
16:04I'm, like, it, I just, I love when a song hits you, like, square in the face.
16:08So.
16:08Yeah.
16:08I, yeah, I go back to those a lot.
16:11Yeah.
16:11One of my favorite, I guess, I don't even know if it could be called a genre, but, like, things to listen to are, like, your John Prines or your, like, Towns Van Zandt is one of my favorites.
16:20Yeah.
16:20Where it's, like, they don't even necessarily have the best vocals.
16:24The production is sparse.
16:25Yeah.
16:26It's truly just the song.
16:28The song.
16:28And it's so stripped back that, like, if the song wasn't there, it completely falls apart.
16:33Totally.
16:34But, yeah, I'm wondering, like, in 2025, do you think that there is a defining sound that's happening right now?
16:41How would you identify that?
16:43Like, what are we going to look back on for 2025 and be, like, that's the sound of 2025?
16:47That's fun.
16:48Yeah.
16:49I don't know.
16:50I think things are becoming very musical again, which I'm really excited about because, like I said, when I first kind of got into it, it was, like, you know, four chords.
16:59Everything was kind of dark.
17:00Everything was, like, it was, like, a lot of, like, trap drums and everything felt just kind of, like, everybody was trying to be really cool and kind of, like, melancholy and dark.
17:07Was this, like, what?
17:08Like, 2016?
17:09Yeah.
17:10Oh, yeah.
17:10No, 2018.
17:11Yeah.
17:122018, 2019, 2020.
17:14And then now I feel like people want to have fun again and people are taking themselves less seriously.
17:19And they're being, like, vulnerable and just, like, expressing themselves.
17:23And I love the trend that that is right now.
17:26Like, I get so inspired by the artists that are open enough to do that and follow that.
17:30And, yeah, I think we'll look back at this 10 years and be like, oh, this was, like, a musical experimentation, like, time.
17:38Yeah.
17:38Yeah.
17:38I love that.
17:39So I think one of the things that you touched on earlier that I want to go back to is that, like, some artists are really locking in with, like, a core group of people that they're writing songs with and really, like, I guess, forming almost like a songwriting musical family during their projects.
17:56You've done this with Sabrina this year on Man's Best Friend writing across all of the tracks, correct?
18:00Okay.
18:01So it's, like, a very tight writing room.
18:03Yeah.
18:04And I think there's, like, a lot of pros to that.
18:06Maybe some cons, too.
18:07I'm wondering if you could reflect on just generally this trend of kind of people locking in with the same core group.
18:14Yeah.
18:15For me, it hadn't really been a trend.
18:17It was the thing that I, like, I'm so grateful and in love with Sabrina for is trusting me to bring me in on Short and Sweet with her for every song, which I'd never gotten to do in my career before.
18:28And then again, of course, on Man's Best Friend.
18:30And I think that was another big turning point in my career where I was like, oh, I forgot how much I love music.
18:37Because every day I go in, my usual schedule is, like, I'm in with somebody different every single day.
18:41Yeah.
18:41Which is really fun and new and it keeps things fresh.
18:43And sometimes I'm doing R&B, sometimes I'm doing country, other days pop, whatever.
18:47But to really get to, like, dig in and find a rapport with somebody and build the chemistry and get to know them inside and out and have this, like, shorthand and this inside jokes and then get to express that through music.
18:58Like, totally, like, bust my world wide open again with what music could be.
19:03And so now it is becoming a trend for me, at least, where, you know, I'm getting to do that with Sabrina.
19:08I've worked on, you know, on Tate's last album.
19:10I got to do, like, I don't know, eight or nine songs on that, on Rosie's album, I got to do a lot of songs.
19:15So it's becoming a really nice flow for me to be able to, like, be with the artist and really move through the entire album process with them.
19:23But, yeah, I mean, people for ages and ages have found, like, their core group.
19:27But it's hard as a songwriter to enter into that equation.
19:30Yeah.
19:30Really hard.
19:31And I feel like only in the past, since Short and Sweet, like, I'd never been given that luxury of the opportunity to do that.
19:39And I hope that every songwriter that loves songwriting with all their heart and soul gets that opportunity because it really changes things, in my opinion.
19:46Yeah.
19:46I always think back to, although I often have people come up and be like, you know, I feel like this is really a trend right now.
19:53People are really locking in with the same people.
19:54I mean, I always think back to, like, really successful collaborations between producers and songwriters and artists.
20:01In the past, I always think of, like, Quincy Jones and Michael Jackson.
20:04Of course.
20:04Like, there have been people historically that have always locked in.
20:08Yeah.
20:08For lack of a better term.
20:10But it creates a zone of, like, safety, too, with the artists where they don't feel like they have to, like, be giving pieces of themselves away to, like, different people every day of the week.
20:18They can build a bond.
20:20And then you can feel it, I feel like, in the music.
20:22Like, you can really tell when an album's been made by, like, a core group of people that trust each other and know each other and are all aligned on what the project is and should be.
20:31So, yeah.
20:32Yeah.
20:33You mentioned that you'll sometimes be writing pop music one day, R&B another, maybe country.
20:38I think while most people know you as a pop songwriter, you definitely have a lot of country hits.
20:43And Nashville works fairly differently.
20:45So, I'm wondering if you could walk us through kind of the difference between entering a pop session versus entering a true country session.
20:54Well, first of all, I love that they start early.
20:57They always start earlier.
20:58In L.A.
20:58And sometimes people will be like, we're going to start at 4.
21:00And I'm like, what is everyone doing for 4?
21:02Like, why are we starting at 4?
21:04So, I love that Nashville, like, people are starting at, like, 10 a.m. and they're out by 4 p.m.
21:09And then they can do another session if they want or they can just, like, have a regular life after 4 p.m.
21:13And go do their, whatever they want, be with their family or whatever it is.
21:17But I love, to me, at least in my experience of writing country songs, and I've learned so many things from, like, who I see, like, the great women of country are.
21:27Like, Laura McKenna and so many of them that I've learned from, but I love that, like, nothing really moves past, it takes precedent over the song in a country session, in my opinion.
21:40Like, in a pop session and most other genres, like, the production is happening simultaneously and sometimes you lose track of if the song is good because the production becomes, like, the main character a little bit.
21:51Yeah.
21:51Which, you know, there's sometimes reasons why that happens and the track or, like, the synth line or the guitar line is, like, as big of a part as the actual song itself.
22:01But for the most part, I love that in Nashville, like, nothing is really getting touched or put down until the song is, like, concrete and everybody's in agreement that it's, like, as good as it can be.
22:12And I love the, like, honing of the craft that happens in Nashville.
22:15Yeah.
22:16So, was it difficult to break into Nashville sessions?
22:19I've heard from some people before that, like, Nashville people can be fairly protective about, like, you know, their own.
22:26Yeah.
22:26So, were they immediately receptive to you as a pop songwriter going in or did it take some work?
22:32You know, I've had an amazing time going every time I've gone there and I, it's funny, I meet a lot of people and a lot of people I think I, I don't know why, but I have this reputation sometimes from people that I am, I live in Nashville or I'm from Nashville for some reason.
22:47And I don't know if that's because I'm from a small town or vain or if it's because I work with a lot of country artists or what that is.
22:54But I always take that as, like, a huge badge of honor because I think that they are the best songwriters in the world come out of, you know, Nashville and the country music scene.
23:04But I've always just felt like it's a warm hug down there anytime I'm working and I feel like I learn so much and I just, yeah, it's like a breath of fresh air for me to get to be surrounded by people who are obsessed with, like, lyrics and song craft as I am.
23:18This episode is brought to you by the National Music Publishers Association, or the NMPA.
23:25You know that song you can't get out of your head?
23:27Someone wrote that.
23:28And behind every hit song is a songwriter who deserves to be paid fairly for their work.
23:32That's where the NMPA comes in.
23:34The National Music Publishers Association is the trade organization representing all American music publishers and their songwriting partners.
23:41And every day, the NMPA's mission is to protect and increase the value of songs.
23:47Based in Washington, D.C., the NMPA works on the front lines, shaping legislation, handling litigation and navigating regulations, all to ensure that publishers and songwriters are paid fairly for every use of their work.
24:01And they're not afraid to go up against big tech to do it.
24:03The NMPA also celebrates songwriters through certifying gold and platinum hits through their official program and hosting events honoring the creators behind the music we love all year long.
24:14To learn more about this organization, head to NMPA.org.
24:19That's NMPA.org.
24:23Often on the show, I have on executives, folks on the business-y kind of side of the music industry.
24:29I'm wondering, from the creative side, what do you think business folks in the music business get wrong about your role?
24:38Or about songwriters?
24:39Like what songwriters do?
24:40Yeah.
24:41Hmm.
24:42That's a good question.
24:43The manager's in the house and I'm looking at her.
24:45But I don't know.
24:46I think it's actually really funny.
24:48I've had this talk with my manager before where we've been working together for like seven or eight years now.
24:51And I'm like, how crazy is it that you've actually never seen me do what I do?
24:55Wait, wow.
24:56It's really crazy.
24:57Because it's this like, sometimes an A&R or a manager will sit in on the session, but like no songwriter likes that.
25:02If any songwriter tells you they like that, I'm like, you're lying.
25:05It is not helpful when that's happening.
25:07Because you feel like you're like mom or dad.
25:10Like you feel like a chaperone's in the room, you know?
25:12And it's really, I don't know.
25:14It feels like really constricting to me and to most songwriters.
25:17I know nobody likes it when that happens.
25:18So it's interesting that like, you know, she's, every song I've ever written, she's been a part of, you know, getting it to the finish line of like having it come out or whatever.
25:28And she's never actually seen me do the thing.
25:30So I can imagine like there's still this like, I don't know.
25:34Like a mystique to it.
25:35Mystique to it a little bit.
25:37But, um, which I kind of like, I'm like, it feels magical.
25:41Yeah.
25:41I don't know.
25:42I think sometimes people hear songwriter and it's synonymous with top liner, which I don't really like the term top liner because it makes it seem like a lot of songwriters don't know how to play an instrument or aren't instrumental in creating the like chords of the song.
25:58Or like we just go in there and we like sing a melody and then we have maybe a lyric, you know, I, I don't know.
26:03I think songwriters are so, at least my favorite songwriters that I'm inspired by that I love, like are, are so in love with the entirety of how a song gets made, whether that's like production or, you know, I come up with chords for so many songs.
26:16And that's one of my favorite parts.
26:17Like, I don't love it as much as I love lyrics, but I, I love coming up with different, you know, chord progressions and pushing myself to learn different ones or how we could lift the song with, you know, I don't know.
26:29Yeah.
26:29Yeah.
26:30There's so many rules that a songwriter plays. And I think that that sometimes maybe isn't fully like understood.
26:35Mm hmm. So one of the things that probably a manager or an A&R on your team probably deals with on your behalf is like the idea of splits.
26:45So basically, if someone is listening here and doesn't know what that means, like after a song is written and it's actually going to come out, you have to determine like who owns what percentage of the song, who gets what percentage of royalties.
26:56As a creative, obviously, that's a, that's a tough conversation. You just poured out your heart and soul to these people and now you have to get down to business. And so that's typically handled by the business. But I'm wondering from your vantage point, have you ever watched like a splits conversation end up ruining a creative partnership?
27:15Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah. I mean, the standard is if, if, you know, us four were in a room writing today, even if I wrote the entire song, like chords, melody, lyrics, the whole thing, if we're all in the room, it's equal splits. That's usually how it goes.
27:30So there's not like a lot of like real time, like, well, I wrote the chorus and you wrote the verse. So like, what's our, you know, it's not that really ever in my experience. But what happens a lot, and this kind of is like touching on like songwriters rights and how songwriters aren't necessarily always like, really respected or, or put in, you know, I don't know, not treated.
27:50Yeah, not treated rarely, really. Is that a lot of times, I'll be in a session, and there'll be, you know, me and an artist and a producer, and then all of a sudden, the song will come out, and there'll be like four other names or three other names on it that I've never heard of, or that I've never met there, whatever. And it's, it's like, it comes through usually the producer of like being like, well, my buddies added this thing to the track and this thing. So it's like, I've seen that get in the way all the time, where what the artist takes, you know,
28:20offense to that, or I am not okay with that. And there's things like that. But yeah, I mean, it's hard to do something as emotionally, you know, compelling and intimate as you do, and then have business like somehow get in the way of it. Of course, it's like, relationships can be strained with that.
28:35Yeah, yeah, I imagine that it's also a challenge, because you really don't know how much like, you know, a person in a secondary room, like, you know, let's say, you have three people in the original room, and then they bring in an extra producer later on. Yeah, you're not there.
28:49So you don't even know how much they contributed. Maybe they contributed a lot, but it's hard to tell when you're not even there to see it.
28:56Right. I mean, usually, I can tell by listening.
28:57Okay, yeah, fair.
28:58But yeah, it's a bit like, the songwriters are like, kept in the dark with a lot of stuff like that, which isn't super fair, considering they're the ones that are like, giving the song that even anything, the song needs to be done for anything to even be produced, you know, so yes, yeah.
29:13Yeah. Yeah. I'm wondering, like, how do you feel about like, the idea of per diems? I've heard people talk about this idea for songwriters.
29:20Yeah, I think it's a phenomenal idea. Okay. I was just talking to my good friend, Ross Golan about it yesterday. Oh, nice.
29:26Who's like such an advocate for songwriters and such like a beacon of light in the music industry right now for songwriters rights.
29:33But I think it's a phenomenal idea, because as like we were talking earlier, like the new generation of songwriters and the next generation of songwriters, where the pitch game is not really there. And, you know, it's a really hard industry to make of a, like decent living wage, there needs to be like a middle class of songwriters that can have a living wage. And for a lot for most of them, they don't, they have to work other jobs. And then, of course, they can't even be doing what they love to do.
29:58And so I think per diems are very fair, at least to like cover the, you know, writer's like lunch and transportation to get to the session or whatever it is. I think that it's a phenomenal idea. And I, I really hope I know that the Iris have been pushing for it. And I hope that it's something that becomes way more, you know, like, yeah, normal read and normalized. Because I think for new songwriters, it's almost like crucial that that happens.
30:22Mm hmm. Yeah, I think it would probably surprise a lot of people to know that you could be a songwriter working for a year, and you're doing back to back sessions. And yet, just none of the songs have come out yet. And so there's, there's literally no money there until the song comes out.
30:37And back in like the early 2000s, if you had like the deepest cut on like a Backstreet Boys, you're like, set for life. Now, if you have a deep cut on like, the biggest artists you can imagine today, if it's a deep cut, you're not making any money off of it, because it's not going to go to radio and streaming platforms don't pay.
30:53Yeah, yeah, writers. So it's hard. It's a really hard, like career path to go down in this day and age right now.
31:00Mm hmm. And there's, I mean, there's a lot of people who enter as songwriters that also do production. Do you do production as well?
31:08I do. Yeah, I think it helps. It helps me stay in love with music. It's like being on both sides of it and really getting to like get better and learn about the production side and how that can like further my understanding of then writing a song to is like, yeah, I think it's helpful. And I think for any writer coming into the game right now, like that is also feels crucial to me to like have as many tools.
31:30in the belt as you can. Yeah. And I do think as far as the pitch game goes, although it doesn't feel like there's a ton of artists who are taking pitches. It seems like a lot of artists are turning towards K-pop as maybe a vehicle for some of their songs. Can you tell me about what the difference is in writing for K-pop versus a like more of an American pop song?
31:52Hmm. You know, I actually haven't done a lot of K-pop. Okay. So I'm not the best person to answer that. But I love K-pop. And I have a lot of friends that love writing K-pop. And I think it's really exciting to, you know, the few times even just writing APT, which isn't a K-pop song, but it's, you know, we're putting Rosie's culture in the forefront of this like really big, amazing pop song that like kind of took over the world this past year.
32:17It's really exciting to see how like culture can have an impact all over the world. And I think it's been really exciting the past few years to see how big K-pop is in the States and how, you know, so many of the songs that maybe are written from a different, like, I would have to learn about the, like, culturally, what makes a K-pop song K-pop song.
32:37And a lot of my dear friends are doing it. And it's the songs are phenomenal. And I think it's like, you know, yeah, and I'm mostly the hold it's having on the world right now.
32:47Yeah. I mean, admittedly, because I am not someone who listens to a ton of K-pop, I actually like can't even totally pinpoint what defines a K-pop song. You just kind of know it when you hear it, I guess.
32:57It feels very melodically different in terms of the structure. Like there's not, in my opinion, when I listen to it, there's not a lot of repetition of parts. It's like every section in a regular pop song. Like, I don't know, I'd say it's like common. The second verse will be the same melody as the first verse. That is a common, not always, but in a K-pop. And when I just listen, like structure wise, it seems like every section is changing, which is cool and unique and different and something I want to, you know, dive into a little more.
33:26Yeah. So it probably like wouldn't be possible if you had just like an old song laying around to just pitch it out to Korea. Like that just, that doesn't just work that way.
33:35I mean, there's so many phenomenal K-pop writers, so they're handling that just well right now.
33:40Yeah. Yeah. Also, you wrote a song for one of the Trolls soundtracks, correct?
33:45Oh, yeah.
33:45Yeah.
33:46With Justin.
33:47Yes.
33:47Yes.
33:47And so I'm wondering if you can tell me about what it's like to write, knowing that it's going to be in a film.
33:53Does that change the process of writing the song?
33:57That was one of the first songs I ever did help write.
34:00That was for a film.
34:00So that was a really fun thing.
34:02But also, I had never worked with like a childhood icon of mine before.
34:05Yeah.
34:06Like Justin, like I was raised on NSYNC and had been a huge fan of his solo project.
34:11And so that was the first time I got to really work with somebody like I grew up listening to.
34:14And I think he's one of the best writers that has been in pop music ever.
34:19He's phenomenal.
34:20And he really helped me with, you know, learning how to write for a film in that session.
34:25And now it's something that I love to do.
34:27And I've been doing a lot more of it.
34:28I'm working on like a bunch of projects right now where I'm doing original songs for movies and series and things like that.
34:34But I'd say the difference is for me, I really like it because it's a very specific brief a lot of the time.
34:41And I think some creatives would be like, I don't want a brief.
34:42I just want to like roll through, but I, I feel like it's a nice change of pace for me to have somebody be like, okay, this isn't for a specific artist, but this is like the scene.
34:50This is the context.
34:51And like write a song that supports that and like can hit the nail on the head with that.
34:55And I, I really like that challenge.
34:57I think it's fun.
34:58Yeah.
34:58Yeah.
34:59Writing to a prompt.
35:00Yeah.
35:00Writing to a prompt.
35:01So you're saying that some, like Justin was someone that you really grew up on.
35:05Is there anyone that you haven't worked with yet that would just be so much fun to get in the room with?
35:10So many Stevie Nicks would be my top.
35:14I just, I'm like, yeah, her melodies and her lyrics just, there's just like always have me the chokehold.
35:21I absolutely love Stevie, Paul McCartney.
35:24I mean, so many.
35:26Yeah.
35:26Adele, like Rihanna.
35:28There's an endless list that I'm always talking to my manager about that are huge.
35:32She would be huge.
35:33Like they'll never happen, but it would be amazing if they ever did.
35:37Hey, you know what?
35:38Never say never.
35:38Yeah.
35:39Never say never.
35:39Well, so you, you have been around quite a few artists on their ascent or after their
35:45ascent, like they're already up there in the stratosphere as A-list stars.
35:48I'm wondering from your vantage point, it's a little bit philosophical, but do you think
35:52that stars are born or are they made through like hard work and effort?
36:00Maybe a little bit of both, but I think the ones that I love to work with are the ones
36:04that made themselves that really put in the time and the love and the work and just kept
36:11at it for a really long time.
36:12And I think it's really exciting that so many artists that we know and love today, like
36:16their careers weren't like a flash in the pan overnight.
36:19We're all of a sudden they're famous in their household name.
36:20Like, of course, Sabrina comes to mind where she has been working her ass off for so long
36:26and she's been so good for so long.
36:28And sometimes it just takes the world a second to catch up and to like get in on what's going
36:32on.
36:33And I just think the resilience, of course, coupled with like the phenomenal talent that
36:38she is, is like, that is why she is one of my favorite artists in the entire world.
36:43I love seeing a hard worker win.
36:44Like, it's my favorite thing.
36:46That's incredible.
36:46And I guess, relatedly, do you think that great songwriters are born or made?
36:54I think that they can be made because I definitely, like, there's so many songwriters that I love
37:00that, you know, since when they were little, they, they just like had the thing and I'm
37:04not proclaiming to be a great songwriter, but I definitely was not good when I was, you
37:10know, like you hear Billie Eilish singing like, oh my gosh, yeah, when she's like 15 or whatever.
37:14It's like, how does she even know to write that?
37:16Yeah.
37:16Where does that come from?
37:17And I, when I listen back to like little recordings I made when I was 15, I'm like, jaw hits the
37:24floor.
37:24They're the worst things I've ever heard.
37:25Like actually so bad.
37:27And I just love working.
37:29I really just like love, if I can't figure something out, I like have to stick at it until
37:32I figure it out and until it feels meaningful to me.
37:35And I, I feel like I've unlocked something and songwriting did not come naturally to me.
37:40And, but I just loved storytelling and I loved listening to music.
37:43And so I really worked for it, but I guess a bit of both.
37:47Yeah.
37:48So given that storytelling is the thing that you always come back to with songwriting, do
37:52you storytell in other ways?
37:53Like, are you a journaler?
37:55Are you someone who is interested in writing essays or books or anything like that?
37:59No.
38:00Okay.
38:01Just the song.
38:01I definitely, I go through phases of journaling.
38:03I do, but I do feel like, I feel like a songwriting career is, there's so much output.
38:10But like, it's so emotionally output heavy that by the time I get home, I'm like, I'm
38:15watching like Love Island and things like that because I'm like, I just need something that
38:19I can like watch without like having to really focus in on.
38:22Yeah.
38:23Or I'm like listening to a book on, you know, I'm just like listening to an audible or
38:26something.
38:27But I, I go through phases of journaling.
38:30Yeah.
38:30And I worked on my own album last year.
38:31I was like writing poems every day and it actually was really nice.
38:35So I think you probably get back into that, honestly, because it does, even if, you know,
38:38for like nine out of 10 of them are horrible, like there would be one every once in an hour.
38:43I'm like, oh, that's actually, that can be a song.
38:45And I really like that.
38:46And I don't know where that came from in my subconscious, but that's interesting to me.
38:49So I should journal more or try to write poetry.
38:53It's okay.
38:53I should too.
38:54You know, it's hard.
38:56I have a few friends who always tell me to do the artist's way.
39:01And then I started for like one week.
39:02Have you done it?
39:03Like one week.
39:03I have like four copies of the artist's way.
39:06I had, I did it in college.
39:07You did.
39:08Okay.
39:08Do you finish?
39:09I did.
39:09Okay.
39:09Maybe that's why you have a songwriting career.
39:12It's hard though.
39:14Yeah.
39:14And you feel, I don't know.
39:16I feel like this oftentimes going into sessions too.
39:18Like there's this weird, like imposter syndrome of like picking up a pen and just like being
39:22like, write whatever comes to mind.
39:23I'm like, yeah, I don't know.
39:25There's something really scary about that to me.
39:27And you wouldn't think there would be because I'm a songwriter.
39:29That's what I do.
39:31But there's something like when a guitar isn't involved.
39:33Or a piano isn't involved.
39:34Or it's just like, just journal your thoughts.
39:36That feels like a little bit crippling to me sometimes.
39:39Yeah.
39:39I mean, it's the bank wall.
39:41Yeah.
39:41It's the blank page.
39:42Yeah.
39:43It's terrifying.
39:43The best and the worst thing of all time.
39:45Yes.
39:46Yeah.
39:46I mean, I totally understand why like the idea of like a prompt for a song for a film would
39:51be kind of, uh, it's nice sometimes.
39:54Yeah, it is.
39:55Cause you're not like, okay, today.
39:56Well, I do end up always digging into my own personal experiences, but it's not like
40:00you're digging for that, like for the seed.
40:01The seed is kind of like given to you and then like, okay, how do I connect to the seed?
40:05Yeah.
40:05It's coming from a different place, which I think is refreshing.
40:08Yes.
40:09As you're building your career as a songwriter, I imagine you had to do just tons and tons
40:14of sessions just to see if anything would work.
40:17And that's gotta be really creatively draining.
40:19Um, so I'm wondering how did you push through and keep doing all of the sessions that were
40:25on your books when you're coming up, um, and get through the writer's block or the,
40:29the creative strain that that took on you?
40:32When I first moved to LA and my manager can attest to this, I was just like, put me into
40:36every session.
40:37I was just so grateful to be here cause I thought I was going to have to move home to
40:40Maine and like live with my parents.
40:42Cause you know, I was really giving myself a year to like figure it out in New York and
40:45then I cracked something and then I got to a delay and I signed the deal, but I was
40:48just like, just felt so excited to be in LA.
40:51I was like, put me in everything.
40:52I don't care what the session is.
40:53I don't care how late it goes.
40:55I don't care if it's on the weekends.
40:56And I remember I counted it.
40:58I did like something, it was around like 90 days or something straight of sessions.
41:03Like I didn't take a day off and I was doing doubles a lot of those days.
41:07And I think that was probably the most like burnt out I ever felt obviously.
41:12Cause I was like every, not only was I working that many days in a row, but I was going
41:16into, I didn't know anybody yet.
41:18I didn't have like my squad of like, okay, I like this producer.
41:21I like this writer.
41:21I didn't, every day was new.
41:23Yeah.
41:23And like, think about how emotionally draining that is when you're like, okay, I have to
41:26like dig deep into my soul to find like a thing to talk about today.
41:29But I also meeting like three or four new people that I've never met and having to hear about
41:33their life experiences and how we can all, it was, it's like a lot in the brain.
41:38Yeah.
41:38But I had a teacher at Berkeley that talked a lot about input output periods instead of like
41:43writer's block or burnout.
41:45And just thinking out of it is like, okay, when you're, sometimes you have a really long
41:49output period where you're like writing a lot, you're doing a lot.
41:51And sometimes it'll feel like you're blocked and you don't have any more to do.
41:55And that's not a block.
41:56It just means you need an input period where you just like live a little bit, listen to
42:00some music, chill out.
42:02It's like, if you don't live, you don't have anything to write about.
42:04So that helped me a lot to never get stuck in like, oh, I'm in the writer's block.
42:08Cause I feel like some people feel like they get crippled by that.
42:11Yeah.
42:11And now I'm just like, okay, it just means my brain needs to like have some listening
42:15time and just like, you know, through osmosis, take some new things in and, and just like
42:20let it marinate for a sec.
42:22Yeah.
42:22And so after that period of so much output, um, when did you feel like you finally got
42:28your chance to breathe?
42:31Hmm.
42:32I feel like I feel, I got my chance to breathe when I started finding my, my people that I
42:36love to work with.
42:37And when I started finding chemistry with artists like Harry or like Sabrina, where
42:41I was like, okay, I found people that it feels just like I'm like home in the session.
42:47Like I feel like they love what I love.
42:49I love what they love.
42:50Our instincts are similar.
42:52I'm learning from them.
42:53They're learning from me.
42:54Like it just felt like musically, I like had a like solid base kind of, and I wasn't
43:01every day like throwing pages at these walls.
43:03I just kind of like, I had, I knew where I was and who I was, and then it felt like I
43:07could be in the passenger seat or in the driver's seat finally and be like, okay, I, I'm in
43:11control now of what type of music I'm a part of.
43:14And that felt really exciting to me.
43:16So when you look at other songwriters and other producers who've been successful, how
43:21important do you think someone's personality plays in their success as a songwriter and
43:26producer?
43:28That's fun.
43:29That's super interesting.
43:30I don't know.
43:31I've actually never had that question.
43:32That's a good question.
43:33I think, there we go.
43:35I've heard a lot of people are always like, what's the secret sauce?
43:37Like, you know, you have, you write so many songs a year and you write with a bunch of
43:41different artists.
43:41Like what's the thing?
43:42And I, of course I love writing and I have put a lot of time into making my writing like
43:48as good as I feel like it can be at this point in my life.
43:50And I still have a lot to learn, but I feel like a lot of, of why I have like, you know,
43:55gotten to work with so many of these artists and continue to work with them is because I just
44:00feel like a friend.
44:02Yeah.
44:03Like I've, yeah.
44:03There's a lot of people that will come into them and they feel like, like a big, massive,
44:07like artistic presence or like this larger than life thing, which is fun too.
44:11But I also feel like artists are of crazy lives.
44:14They're always on tour.
44:15They're always like having to, you know, be somewhere doing something wild and to be able
44:20to like be in the studio and have it feel like a really like warm, homey environment with
44:24people that they can just like shoot the shit with and, and are feel like, like minded too,
44:28I think is really important and for them to open up and for them to feel safe to, to make
44:34their art.
44:34So I feel like in terms of that, like my personality, just feeling kind of like you're, you know,
44:40run of the mill, like good friend is helpful to me.
44:43Yeah.
44:44I imagine that's also really comforting for female artists who probably don't have that
44:47many women collaborators in the studio anyway.
44:51Yeah.
44:51But yeah, I imagine like, like an artist's life is just so hectic that it can also be
44:56a lonely.
44:56So being able to lock in and feel emotionally connected with the people around them for
45:01a long period of time is probably quite comforting.
45:03Definitely.
45:04Yeah.
45:04So another thing that I wanted to ask you about, which is kind of random, I've always been
45:10really fascinated by the idea of like flipping songs.
45:14So to explain to people who are listening, who don't know what that means.
45:19I, I personally feel that this got more popular in the last few years because there have been
45:24so many catalog deals.
45:26Yeah.
45:26So many catalogs changing hands from iconic songwriters, iconic artists.
45:31Yeah.
45:31And so these people who buy these new catalogs, they want to find a way to up the value of it.
45:37So sometimes they'll reach out to producers or songwriters that they know and say, Hey, I
45:42have the rights to this song.
45:44If you want to flip it and make it your own thing, we'll help you clear it.
45:48Right.
45:49And people actually started doing that.
45:50I feel like 2022.
45:52It was big for the flip.
45:53Oh my God.
45:53Big flip time.
45:54Looking at the Hot 100, I was like, I can't do it.
45:58A lot of flips.
45:59So many flips.
46:00It was like a first class.
46:01Jack Harlow was one.
46:03Blue, David Guetta and Bebe Rexha.
46:06There's so many.
46:07There's a lot.
46:07I can name a million.
46:08But it's a really specific skill.
46:10I've actually never done it in my career.
46:12Yeah.
46:12So that's what I was going to ask is like, I don't think I've ever heard you do one.
46:15And how do you feel about them?
46:16I feel like I haven't because I would only ever want to do a flip for a song that I'm
46:22like, this song is unbelievable.
46:23And then with that territory comes like, I don't want to ruin one of my favorite songs.
46:29I mean, no, like when you start thinking about like, oh, my favorite, like Sheryl Crow song
46:34came in a flip it and like add new lyrics to it.
46:36I'm like, there's a very high chance it's not going to be better than the original.
46:40And like, yeah, you know, I don't know.
46:42I get a little bit.
46:43I think I've gotten in my own head with it in ways like that sometimes.
46:45But there are some amazing flips, like for sure.
46:48So I maybe it'll be coming down the track for me at some point.
46:52But I haven't to date done one, no.
46:54Yeah.
46:54Yeah.
46:54It is.
46:55It is an amazing school.
46:56I have friends that are phenomenal at it.
46:57And I'm like, how do you get out of your head of what the original was to then flip
47:01it?
47:01And, you know, I'm like, I would just be so set on how good the original was.
47:05But yeah, some people are amazing at it.
47:07Yeah.
47:07I mean, it's really interesting.
47:09And it's still going on today.
47:10I think 2022 was definitely the peak.
47:13Yeah.
47:13But you still see it hang around sometimes.
47:16It's usually it's like a little bit more covert now.
47:18I think people are doing it a little bit less obvious.
47:20But it's interesting.
47:22It's interesting.
47:23Doja's Walk On By is like one of my favorite ones that I've heard in a really long time.
47:27That was because that instrumental like that, that whole.
47:31Oh, my God.
47:31And then just putting something on top of it that is so not what the original was.
47:35It's amazing.
47:36I love it.
47:37So I know it'll be hard to narrow this down.
47:40But what is a song that you really wish you had written?
47:43Oh, that was so hard.
47:46Oh, my gosh.
47:48I mean, probably Wild Horses by the Stones.
47:52That's really like that is a perfect song to me.
47:55That is really, really, really perfect song to me.
47:58Good answer.
47:58Yeah.
47:59I mean, there's some songs that you look back on and you're just like, oh, to have been
48:02a fly on the wall in the moment of that being written.
48:05But it's been so crazy.
48:06Having now the idea of how big that song was going to be.
48:09Like, imagine watching Let It Be happen.
48:12Like, it just was so crazy to me.
48:14And that's what's so cool about songs and music in general is that, like,
48:18sometimes they come from the most random moments in life and they turn into the biggest songs
48:23of all time.
48:23It's wild.
48:24Yeah.
48:25Do you think that you have a good sense of when you are writing a hit?
48:29No.
48:30Really?
48:30Not at all?
48:31I have an idea of if I love it.
48:33Okay.
48:33I was just saying this to somebody the other day because with Please, Please, Please, I
48:35know I've already talked about this song.
48:37I just love it, though.
48:37But that song to me, like, that didn't sound like anything on the radio that I had really
48:43ever heard.
48:43So it wasn't obvious to my brain, like, this is a hit.
48:47But I knew the second after we finished writing it, I was like, I love this song.
48:51I don't know what else to say.
48:52I love it.
48:52And, like, went to bed singing it, woke up singing it, just loved it.
48:55So my radar is really good for when I really, really love something.
48:59But calling a hit, especially in today's day and age of the music, it's just like, who
49:04the hell knows?
49:05It's anybody's game right now out there, which is cool.
49:08Yeah.
49:08It's fun.
49:08Yeah, so I think to end off our conversation, you've worked with so many different artists
49:15and you've gotten some extended time with a lot of them.
49:17And I feel like with every artist, there's usually, like, a few key attributes about
49:21them that I feel like are almost like superpowers to them that make them really special.
49:24So I'm going to name off a couple of your collaborators.
49:27I want you to tell me what you think their superpowers are, I guess, as artists.
49:32We'll start with Sabrina.
49:33Yeah.
49:34Ugh.
49:35Hard-working.
49:38Fearless.
49:40Prolific.
49:41That's great.
49:42Funny.
49:42Funny as hell.
49:43Funny.
49:44Yes.
49:45Harry Styles.
49:48Very engaging.
49:50Feels like somebody you've known forever.
49:54Very unique and stylized, in my opinion, in a way that is, like, very exciting to work
49:59with.
50:00Knows exactly who he is.
50:01Sorry, this is more than one word answer.
50:02No, no.
50:02I think that's interesting.
50:03And fun.
50:04I mean, so fun.
50:05Yeah.
50:05And also fearless.
50:06All of the favorite artists of mine are, like, fearless is at the top because they're
50:10just, they go for it and they're themselves.
50:13And I think that's amazing.
50:14And aside with Harry is, I just heard that he, like, ran this marathon.
50:18Oh.
50:18And, like, I don't even know what the time was.
50:20No, it's a crazy time.
50:21Are you a runner?
50:23I am.
50:23Okay.
50:24My sister runs professionally for Adidas.
50:26And so I've, like, been, you know, once, I've done a few marathons just, like, tagging
50:30very far behind her.
50:32But I, huge props to Harry because he had a very fast time.
50:35Yeah.
50:35Amazing.
50:36Yeah.
50:37It's really, like, good running, I think, for artists and for songwriters because it's,
50:39like, kind of one of the times for me where I'm, like, can fully zone out.
50:43Yeah.
50:43And not be thinking about, like, what I'm, you know, I don't know.
50:46I think it's really healthy.
50:48And to end it off, Tate McRae.
50:53So sweet.
50:55The best dancer in the entire world.
50:57Oh, yeah.
50:58Yeah.
50:58Also very prolific and extremely hardworking.
51:01I was just with her the other day and I'm, like, listening to what her schedule is right
51:04now in my brain.
51:05Like, can't even compute how hard she's working and all the things she's doing right now.
51:11So, yeah.
51:12Yeah.
51:12She sounds like quite the athlete, I guess, as an artist.
51:15Yeah.
51:16Yeah.
51:16Amazing.
51:17And then to end it off, we always ask our guests to make us a playlist.
51:22We have a playlist that we're running on Spotify where we add all of these songs to it.
51:26And we have the same three prompts for everyone.
51:29So the first one is a song you can no longer gatekeep.
51:32So a lesser known song.
51:35Only a Broken Heart by Tom Petty.
51:37It's out of Wildflowers and it's one of my favorite songs of all time.
51:41And I feel like nobody knows that song for some reason, but for, like, lyric geeks like
51:45I am, that is a perfect song.
51:47Like, every single line needs to be there for the song.
51:49It just, oh my gosh, it's amazing.
51:51I love that.
51:51Head of videos.
51:52A favorite throwback?
51:55Ooh.
51:57Maybe What the World Needs Now by Dionne Warwick.
52:00It's like Burt Bacharach and Al David and it's so good.
52:05It's...
52:05That's a classic lineup.
52:06It's such a good guy.
52:07So it's like, and it was in my, that movie, My Best Friend's Wedding, which has like a
52:1190 kid is like one of my favorite movies of all time.
52:14And it's just a perfect song.
52:16Big throwback.
52:17Love it.
52:17And A Guilty Pleasure.
52:20Ooh.
52:21Um, my manager and I listen a lot to Bewitched.
52:25Also from the 90s era, um, C'est La Vie, Blame It on the Weatherman.
52:29But also I was watching Beauty and the Beast on, this isn't guilty because, I mean, of course
52:33these songs are phenomenal, but I was watching Beauty and the Beast on a flight the other night
52:36from London back here.
52:37And every single melody in that entire movie of every song is like the most heartbreakingly
52:43beautiful thing I've ever.
52:44I hadn't watched that movie in so long.
52:45Mm-hmm.
52:46I need to re-watch it then, it sounds like.
52:48Oh my God.
52:49The melody writing in that, I think, is some of the best melody writing like ever to be done.
52:52Wow.
52:52Yeah.
52:53Okay.
52:54The main thing.
52:54There you have it.
52:56It's so good.
52:58Sorry.
52:58Geeking out.
52:59I love that.
52:59I love that.
53:00Well, Amy, thank you so much for coming to On The Record.
53:02This was so much fun.
53:03Thanks for having me.
53:04All right.
53:04Another special thank you to Amy Allen for sharing her insights with us this week.
53:08And now let's throw it to our Hot 100 chart roundup for the week of October 11th.
53:14Your Idol by Saja Boys falls to number 10.
53:19Love Me Not by Raven Lanay.
53:21Sticks at number 9.
53:25I Got Better by Morgan Wallen breaks back into the top 10 this week at number 8.
53:31Soda Pop by Saja Boys falls to 7.
53:36Lose Control by Teddy Swims, which has been on the Hot 100 for 111 weeks, rises this week
53:42to number 6.
53:45Daisies by Justin Bieber rises to 5.
53:51Morgan Wallen and Tate McRae's duet, What I Want, sticks at number 4.
53:57Tate McRae's new song, Tit for Tat, debuts at number 3.
54:01Ordinary by Alex Warren stays at number 2.
54:06And finally, the number 1 song this week on the Hot 100 chart is Golden by Huntrix from
54:14the K-Pop Demon Hunter soundtrack.
54:16This is the 8th week at number 1 for this song.
54:20That's our show for today.
54:21Thanks for tuning in to On the Record, a co-production of Billboard and Sickberg Productions.
54:26If you liked what you heard today, please consider subscribing, rating, liking, all those good
54:30things.
54:31It really helps a new show like ours reach new audiences.
54:34Again, I'm your host, Kristen Robinson, and tune in next week.
54:38See you then.
54:46See you then.
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