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00:00Our next conversation is about the business of culture. As we know, you know, Nigeria is shaping
00:09the global imagination. Music, arts, performance, theater, all of it. I mean, we all hear every day
00:20about like a goosey and foo-foo and the jollof rice wars and this is all part of it. We've become,
00:26a lot of our vocabulary has become part of global parlance as well. And our next panel,
00:33we want to discuss creativity as national power, but really the question we're asking
00:38is for the next 65 years, how can we turn this to ownership, to investment, and how can we see
00:44long-term creative infrastructure flow back to Nigeria? And to help us moderate, facilitate,
00:53instigate, just cook up that conversation, I'd like to invite the Editor-in-Chief Marie-Claire Nigeria,
00:59Denise Esiemokumo to the stage as she'll be leading that conversation.
01:09Welcome Denise, welcome Denise.
01:10I will also like to invite our panelists. We have Giles Papiat, who is the group head of
01:23Fine Art at Bonhams. Welcome Giles.
01:30We also have Richard Verdilago, who is a cultural entrepreneur and the Brain House of Now House at
01:36Lagos at the Federal Palace Hotel. I'm feeling the vibe on that table, on those two tables there.
01:42It's like a rockstar table going on. I'd also like to invite Abubakar Suleiman, who is the MD CEO of
01:49Sterling Bank. Thank you. So, take it away.
01:54Hello? Okay. All right, we're good. Hi everyone. Good evening. Welcome to the panel session,
02:13Creativity as National Power. Of course, we've had a lot of conversations this evening about how
02:18important and pertinent our creative economy here is in Nigeria. It truly is a billion-dollar
02:24creative industry. We have lots of global culture, film, art, and fashion. And the most pertinent
02:32question remains, how can we shift this from just the cultural sensation to actual industry? So,
02:39that's what we're here for. And at the end of this discussion, I want to challenge everyone in this room
02:43to think of the Nigerian creative industry not just as something that contributes to global cultural
02:50dominance, but is a thriving, living, breathing economic machine in and of itself. So, happy to
02:57have you all here. So, my first question is for you, Giles. You've seen the trajectory of African art on
03:03the global stage. From your vantage point at Bonham's, how do you think Nigeria can better translate its
03:10creative acclaim into long-term economic ownership?
03:18Hello. Yes. You're absolutely right. We've seen an extraordinary growth in Nigerian arts and the
03:25nominal values of Nigerian art. When I started, when I first brought Nigerian art to the international
03:31market, it was not well-known. It was not well-known at all. And now, it is universally appreciated and
03:38admired. And we've sold paintings for millions and millions of pounds in London. But how do you
03:47monetize that and extend that? I think one has to keep doing what one's doing. It is extraordinary,
03:53and Obi touched on this, the power that Nigerians have, the energy, the effervescence, and one has to
03:59keep that. And I think the creative individuals here in Nigeria are extraordinary. I mean,
04:06time is the big sifter of talent. I think not all of them will survive, but the ones that are good
04:11are very good. And we will see them in the future. And I think they show their faces in my world, which
04:18is the international art world, and show their faces very strongly. So it is a very rosy future for
04:24Nigerian artists, certainly. Okay. So I have a follow-up question to that. In terms of other emerging markets
04:31for art like Asia and then Latin America too, as well, do you think that there are any models that
04:36we in Africa and Nigeria specifically can adopt for our own economic growth?
04:41I think that the one area that Nigeria could improve is the system of galleries and support for
04:56artists. It is very well developed across the rest of the world. Here, yes, it is developed,
05:01but it could be stronger. I mean, to call art a business does not diminish the meaning of that.
05:09It only recognizes the reality. Art is a business. And as a business, it gives artists
05:17a future. It gives them a living. It stops them just being a hobbyist. So you have to allow art to be a
05:23business and encourage galleries. And if the gallery system could be enhanced and improved here in Nigeria,
05:30it would be to the benefit of all artists. And in other parts of the world, it is probably better
05:35developed than here in Nigeria. Yes. I think what you said about art being a business is a very
05:40important part because what we have here is a lot of creatives take what they do as maybe a hobby,
05:48but not necessarily a profession. So Richard, that brings me to my question for you.
05:52From a real estate perspective, from a real estate perspective and an infrastructure perspective,
05:58where exactly does art live? And how can physical spaces, third spaces, which is something that a
06:05lot of people mention is not really present in our society anymore because of a lot of the
06:09industrialization. So how can we create those spaces where art can thrive as both business and community
06:17expression? Is this working? Okay, yeah. Look, I think any space is, especially when you're thinking
06:27about it in a cultural sense, is a space for independent thinking. And I think that can happen
06:33as long as there are four walls around you. I think the idea now of actually how do we reimagine that
06:39is by actually doing more, actually going about and actually understanding the facets of what it
06:44means to create community, to create dialogue. I think people sort of understand art in various
06:50different forms, whether it's music, whether it's art, whether it's fashion. But the most important
06:56thing is that it creates conversation. It creates dialogue. And I think we need to empower spaces that
07:01allow people to feel more comfortable, to have dialogue, to feel more empowered and to feel that
07:07they can actually have a voice and a conversation with each other. And I think that that's where we
07:14need to sort of put our attention. Any space is a cultural space, as long as people are talking culture
07:19in that space. And I think we need to kind of like get more people to understand that and want to
07:25participate in what that means. It means a space where you're, if your core interest is to be creative
07:32and to push together a narrative or a point of view, then you've created a cultural space. And I think
07:39we kind of have to take ownership of that shops, creating experiences, creating conversations that
07:44are unified to their point of view and allow for individuals to actually come out and flourish. And I
07:50think that's what I've always tried to do with all the spaces that we've had, whether it's,
07:54it's a NAA house or whether it's a Windsor gallery, it's just create spaces where people feel
07:59comfortable and people want to engage in conversation. How we go about presenting art
08:04as a viable business is one thing. And again, creating the engagement and interest that people
08:09might have because they want to be part of that sort of whether it's contemporary or whether it's
08:14whether it's art or whether it's fashion. But I think that just the positioning of actually
08:18creating spaces where people can actually feel empowered is the key catalyst to getting people
08:23to want to spend money, to want to engage with and want to actually discover new spaces.
08:29Yeah. Thank you so much. That was a very robust answer. Quite enjoyed.
08:33Quite enjoyed that. But of course, you know, to build all these spaces, there's one thing on
08:38everyone's mind. Money. Yes, of course, we all need money. So I'm coming to you, Abubakar. I'm sure you can
08:44tell. So Sterling Bank has been quite vocal over the years about financing innovation, sustainability,
08:50and all its other various cultural projects. But I would like to know what models are particularly
08:57available for people in the creative space who have everything figured out except for the finances?
09:04Well, you said have everything figured out except for the finances. What else have you figured out?
09:16I mean, honestly, seriously, if you haven't figured out the finance, I don't think you've figured it out.
09:19You haven't figured it out.
09:23Right. So the problem, where we see the problem, it's that the information in the market,
09:31or information from the sector that should lead to financing is unavailable. The most trusted
09:37information is the marketplace. So most of the sector to finance is very easy to determine price,
09:43to determine who the buyers are. There is significant liquidity, means there are multiple buyers.
09:48There's some level of predictability. That is the exact opposite. Up until maybe four or five years ago,
09:55you've got to be in the inner circle to know what is actually going on. There was literally no
10:00coverage in the media. Where there was coverage, it wasn't from the perspective of what could scale.
10:06It was the emotion, the memories. So what we followed the art for was the enjoyment of the art.
10:15Nobody really cared about how the artist survived. So the challenge, the first challenge is how do we
10:20make sure we create a connection between the artist and the marketplace? And that starts with figuring
10:26out which market are you selling to? Because it starts with, if you don't know the market you're
10:30selling to, then you're not presenting your work in a way that will get to that market and they'll
10:35understand it. The second challenge is how do we then make sure that the language of the artist
10:41at some level can be translated for financiers? Because we don't understand it. I had a meeting earlier this
10:47morning with a team that presented to me four artists that were going to perform in December for Dirty
10:53December. The cheapest was going to cost them $700,000 and the most expensive was over two million
11:00dollars. That's serious. And I had no idea what they were talking about because I don't know exactly
11:04where the two million dollars is going to come back from. And it doesn't mean it doesn't come back,
11:07we just don't speak the language of the creative space. So there is need for us to have this kind
11:14of conversations with open mind where we try to express why it is so difficult for banking or for
11:22banks to finance art. And then we try to understand how we can help them. If you ask me today, the most
11:30important thing we can do is to create a fund that is not banking fund, that is not regulated fund, that
11:37is dedicated to the art, but to make sure that it's done in a very transparent way so that the fund
11:42trades and people can see how it performs. It takes that kind of information to then bring in both
11:48investors, which is the first layer of funding that must come into the art, but also to then bring in
11:54debt financing. Debt is the most difficult because the volatility in the price of art, for instance,
12:00I can't tell you if it's worth a million dollars or a hundred thousand, but he can tell you.
12:04So a bank is not going to put money there because when it's worth a million dollars, the artist or the
12:09collector gets the profit. When it's worth ten thousand dollars, I lose the money, right? So
12:14there is a need for a common language where artists and financiers can connect and collectively can
12:20approach the market. Thank you so much. Richard, you look like you have some thoughts on this whole
12:27situation. I'd love to hear them. Yeah, look, I mean, I think the language that banks want to really hear
12:32at the end of the day is de-risk, right? It's how to de-risk your sort of exposure with any kind of,
12:38whether it's someone approaching a bank with a business plan or an idea. The bank wants to be
12:46de-risked. They're using not their money, they're using other people's money to invest in your business.
12:51So there is also a fiduciary responsibility that the banks have, not just to say
12:56the creative space is the new hot buzzword. We have to create products for that. I mean, one of the
13:01things that we're doing with Windsor Gallery is that we're building out galleries all across the
13:06continent to give market entrenchment and give the opportunity to have multiple buyers in multiple
13:12markets. With that, then we'll come and have a conversation with the guys at Sterling Bank and
13:16say, you know what, let's produce a product that allows you to loan against certain artists who are
13:23specifically sought after to supply and demand. Again, because we have galleries in 20 different
13:29countries in the African continent, they're going to feel safer to loan against because they know
13:34that if tomorrow somebody doesn't pay back, we have access to liquidate their asset because it's an
13:40asset class now. That's the kind of conversations banks want to have. Today, it's very easy to say
13:45that banks will just pay you or give you money based on your creative talents. That doesn't work.
13:50It's about structure. It's about also understanding and putting together the funnels to allow for a supply
13:55and demand model to come into place and more African buyers to start buying art which creates
14:01the supply and demand model that we're all looking for. It's a vicious cycle, unfortunately, but it is
14:07what it is. We can't say that we on the continent are not consuming enough. Obi just talked about that
14:12actively. We're not consuming our own products at this moment in time. That's because we don't understand
14:17it because we undervalue it to a certain degree because we believe that a guy who's creating beautiful
14:24gowns, I can go to my tailor down the road and pay half the price for it because the value derivative
14:29system is not in place, but we're getting there. With more private sector individuals and more people
14:34coming in and building and taking positions, we will see that active change and we will see financial
14:39institutions coming to the market because we built a market. The market doesn't exist yet,
14:45but we're building it. I think together through these kind of discourses, these kind of opportunities,
14:50these kind of events that Anita's putting together and the whole team to actually create more visibility
14:55and what's happening, more business people, culture. I mean, I got an F in art in school.
15:01Shows how much like I was crap, really crap at art. But you know, I managed to excel in one way or the
15:11other in business and then understanding what I want to build for spaces that I want to feel comfortable
15:16in. And so by default, we are taking one step at a time. We're building foundation. We're building blocks
15:22to one day be able to then build an active market that everybody can participate in. But it doesn't,
15:26it doesn't happen overnight. And I don't think it's sometimes it's just like, why isn't government
15:30doing more or why isn't financial institutions doing more? We as active participants need to do
15:35need to do a bit more. Thank you so much for that. You actually touched on a point, which is leading me
15:39to my next question. Giles, this is for you. So basically, it's all about how we have this phenomenon
15:46of where people are really brilliant creatives. They're here on the continent. No one knows anything
15:51about them. And then, you know, they go abroad. And then all of a sudden, they're this very big,
15:56very massive cultural export. And then, of course, we haven't been able to keep any of that in the
16:01continent. So now, Nigeria, Africa has lost this very big contributor to, you know, the creative economy
16:07and its creative power. So my question to you is, what can we do to make sure that we keep African
16:14creatives, even if they have a global worldview, participate and participants basically of the creative
16:21economy here in Africa? I think, I mean, when you say you've lost them, you haven't lost them.
16:28They're out there, be it in the west coast of America, wherever their studio is. And I'm talking
16:34here about artists, they're working, they'll be Nigerians, they'll be Africans. And the benefit is
16:41still coming home reputationally. I think it is, it is difficult because artists, as I've said before,
16:48they have to eat to live, they have to have a business. And if an artist can sell works for
16:54£150,000 a painting by going to work in Los Angeles, well, why shouldn't they? It is a business,
17:02as I've said before, one has to realise art is a business. So I don't think you see these wonderful
17:09artists, as I say, working out there. I would also say some are coming back. I look at, for example,
17:14the artist Kehinde Wiley. Now, he is now based in Ghana, in Accra, and he has come back for the
17:19year of the return. It was a great thing for Ghana and brought an awful lot of creatives back there.
17:25And there are a lot of artists still working here in Nigeria. But you're right, a lot have left for
17:31essentially the glory and perhaps the pecuniary rewards they can get abroad. And that is
17:39understandable. As I've said, I'm a great believer in not thinking that art as a business is a bad
17:45thing to say. I think it has to be a business. People have to live. And also, if you look at what's
17:51happening here this week in Lagos, you've got Artex, you've got an awful lot of tourists,
17:58people coming into Lagos, coming into Nigeria. Why? Because of art. So it is a great wealth
18:04generator. And I think that is important. I think so too. Thank you so much for that answer.
18:10So Suleiman, my next question is for you. So you work very closely, you know, in finance with the
18:16government. So there are a lot of private sector, but as well, public sector policies that can help
18:21create artists, protect them, protect their IPs and the rest of them. So do you think from the
18:26existing framework that we have currently in Nigeria, do you think that there's anything missing?
18:30And how can we potentially bridge that gap to further protect artists over the next 65 years, basically?
18:42Hello? Okay. So let me dial back a little bit on something we said earlier about the risking art.
18:49I don't think we're asking or we should be asking the artist or the business people in the art world to
18:56derisk it for us. What we should be asking for is to fill in the gaps. There's a lot of information
19:02gaps that means that I cannot apply any banking model to art. So I need to work with them to
19:09understand it, to fill in the gap. I need to keep information, I need a storytelling,
19:13which then takes me to what we could be doing in terms of framework. And this is not necessarily for
19:20art alone. This is for all the creative work that we do. How do we use technology to be able to identify
19:31the work that is being created, to be able to assign ownership to that work, and to be able to make that
19:37work transferable? In other words, how do we move from just digitizing some of the fiscal work itself
19:44to tokenizing the ownership? And this is important because of the weak judicial framework around which
19:49we operate. If I know, for instance, that I could invest a hundred dollars in a fraction of a work
19:55that's worth a hundred thousand dollars, what you're doing is you're moving from digitizing to tokenizing
20:00and from tokenization, you're now financializing. What it means is, I was looking at the OBSC cast cap,
20:06that's a unique piece of work. If he had that tokenized and the ownership resides on whoever holds
20:11the token, we could trade it right now. And he's just a custodian, he can continue to wear the cap,
20:17but I own the right to that piece of work. I think we need to think like that. Nigeria and Africa has
20:22done well by leapfrogging. We cannot attempt to replicate the world that's gone.
20:29A hundred years of the way art and creative work has been treated. But with the power of blockchain,
20:35we can tokenize the title. What it does is, first and foremost, the rights of the artist is protected.
20:42The moment is created and is assigned to the artist and there's a framework for it. Secondly,
20:47it becomes a financial instrument that you could literally borrow against the work that you own,
20:52that you don't even want to sell, because that right, you can put a lien on it and you get access
20:57to money. But most importantly, because this tokenized, you've globalized it. Anyone anywhere
21:02can buy a piece of work that you've put on a chain and someone can pay for it and then you can have
21:08it delivered. Now, does the infrastructure for this exist? Do we have the regulation for it? The answer is
21:14there is enough for us to start. The rest of it will be figured out as we start to get into the marketplace.
21:22But it takes someone with the courage and with the resources to start to create that space and then
21:27we can run with it. Thank you very much. Richard, I would love to hear your thoughts too as well,
21:32because I saw you kind of, I saw the gears going. I'd love to hear thoughts on that too.
21:36I mean, art is working. Yeah, just pull it a bit closer. I mean, art is very much like real estate,
21:45I think. You know, the sort of the fractional ownership model becomes less personal to something
21:51that is personal to you. When you're buying art, you, at the end of the day, derive the value that's
21:57associated to it. And the multitude of the markets, if you think about the sort of the top
22:03performing or at auction, for example, it's an individual buyer spending $150 million for a
22:09basket. You know, so the idea of actually creating a capital market that is largely based on
22:15multiple participants, it's about understanding each market for what it says, like you said,
22:20the information that's derived and what happens. Today, we've seen sort of things like NFTs come into
22:26play. Yeah. And that has been tokenized and that has been multiple participants and that has failed
22:31as a product. Not every product because of the way that we sometimes think about it. I mean,
22:37art is one of the oldest selling products that we've seen in time. It goes all the way back to,
22:44you know, the Da Vinci's who are, you know, it's a model that's worked consistently over centuries.
22:50It's not us today that's going to change that model. It's us today that's going to adapt our model
22:54to our reality. Yeah. And of course, Nigeria's reality is that the financial institutions and the
22:59structures that we have historically haven't allowed us, even like, if you think about
23:04the real estate market, it is a cash based market majority. You try and get a loan today from a bank
23:09at 22%. It's not the, it's not going to be in your favor, but the infrastructures that the banks allow
23:16and build and work with government to create capital, to build more roads, to allow for better property
23:22prices to go up and new developments. That's where we're looking at infrastructure, infrastructure to
23:28then get more people to understand art, because if the banks now start coming in and start underwriting
23:34it, it will allow other people to understand value. From that, then you get insurance coming in,
23:40because of course, where the banks go, the insurance goes, then you get a double valuation
23:44on a product that never really existed. Even if it's one guy, it's just going to allow us to shift
23:50our perspective of what value is. And I think that's really where I think the conversation needs to be
23:55had. How are we creating a better platform for people to understand value to this product?
24:03Thank you, sir. I've just been given a signal by the moderator that we need to wrap up.
24:09Yes, but of course, there's a purpose to this conversation. And we want to not only secure Nigeria's
24:16creative future, but we want to look into, you know, what the next 65 years could be.
24:20And we're all stakeholders of that conversation because we all have our own individual networks
24:26and the people that we work with and can further inspire, even if we might not be here to see those
24:31changes. So I have one final question for each of you. What is one very particular mindset shift
24:39that we can all have towards our creative industry that can really help make the difference going
24:45forward? Giles, I think we can begin with you. I think that the mindset shift that would change
24:54things for a lot of artists, I suppose, to be honest, is to stop, though it's a business,
25:02is to stop chasing the market. So when artists start chasing the market and trying to produce work for
25:09the market, it nearly always ends in disaster. And in my career, the one thing I've learned
25:17and I've always told myself is when you're looking at a painting and you're speaking to an artist,
25:23be honest. Don't even tell white lies. Be completely honest and it will stand you in good stead because
25:29if you sugarcoat it and if someone is producing something that is, you can see, has been produced
25:35purely for the market and for sale, it will normally end in disaster. So I think the big mindset shift,
25:44I would say, is do not look at the market. Look at what you're doing. Concentrate on what you're
25:49doing, because if you do that, you will be rewarded. Thank you so much. Richard, can we have you please?
25:55Yeah, look, I think the ownership is stop waiting for anybody to do what you can do yourself. I think the
26:02ultimate truth is, is that if you want to build out something, you can build it. It's going to take
26:07sweat, tears and a lot of, a lot of ups and downs. But if you're, I mean, I think my favorite saying is
26:14success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm. It is really about keeping it moving
26:21and just ensuring that you're part of the, part of, part of the market. Just keep it, keep it moving.
26:26Thank you so much. Ababa, can we have you please?
26:31For me, I want us to think beyond creativity as a gift and start to see the creative industry as a
26:41profession. Yes, the gift is necessary and is a foundation for it. But unless we start to think
26:48about it as a profession, which means we'll have to train people to know how to relate with all the
26:53other stakeholders in their business, they're going to always be at the mercy of some middlemen
26:59who are not interested in the artist. Thank you so much. I'm personally very excited for the next 65
27:07years of our creative economy. And just to wrap up what we've all discussed here, if there's anything
27:12that you will take away from this panel discussion, I want you to remember that your creativity
27:17and your art is not just something that you can do, but it is a viable business that can be supported
27:22by the right institutions, by the right people, and by the right networks. So please keep creating,
27:29keep fostering our precious, precious creative economy. And I guess we'll see you in the next 65
27:35years, God willing. Thank you very much. A big round of applause to Denise for handling such a wonderful
27:43conversation. Thank you to our panelists, Giles, Richard, and Abubakara Silliman. Thank you so much.
27:49Thank you so much.
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