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00:00Next, one of the most significant stories dominating the headlines this week has been the fallout from the editing scandal at the BBC.
00:06The resignations of two of its bosses and the questions of trust it's brought out into the open.
00:10President Trump's response to it is perhaps more pressing concern for the corporation as he's threatened to sue the BBC for a billion dollars.
00:18He's also called for a full apology by today.
00:20When an apology came overnight in the form of a letter from the BBC board, a sorry for the quote error of judgment,
00:26it states to five reasons why it believes there is no case to answer regarding compensation,
00:31including the offending Panorama programme wasn't broadcast in the US and was only available to Ukraine viewers,
00:38that it's caused the president no harm as he was re-elected shortly after anyway,
00:41and that the 12 second clip was never meant to be considered in isolation,
00:44but part of an hour long programme with plenty of Trump supporting voices.
00:48There are political voices in the UK, including the leader of Lib Dems, Ed Davey,
00:53calling on Sir Keir Starmer to step in to tell President Trump to drop his demand.
00:57The British Prime Minister responded by stating that he supports an independent BBC,
01:01but it must get its house in order, while it has to be said trying to get his own house in order this week,
01:07amid escalating rumours of a leadership challenge fuelled by leaked briefings within Number 10 itself
01:12that accused the health minister West Streeting of plotting a political coup.
01:16Headline writers having a hoot this week, liking it to the TV series Traitors.
01:19Well, to get a better insight and understanding of both of these issues and more besides,
01:24it's crossed to London. Let's welcome Dame Emily Thornberry, Labour MP,
01:27former barrister, former shadow attorney general, former shadow foreign secretary,
01:31and who now serves as chair of the UK's Foreign Affairs Select Committee.
01:34Evening, Dame Emily. Welcome to France 24.
01:37Good evening.
01:37And thank you for speaking to me tonight.
01:39Well, let's start with, given your position, given the daily scrutiny on foreign affairs it entails,
01:44more often than not, it's linked to President Trump. Tell me about the ramifications of this BBC editing error,
01:50in your view, the trust issues it raises and how significant this controversy is,
01:55and what lies ultimately at the heart of it.
02:01We have to begin by acknowledging that the BBC, with all respect,
02:06is the most trusted news outlet in the world.
02:11And that's really important at a time when there is such disinformation,
02:15when there is deliberate manipulation of lies from all sorts of sources around the world,
02:21and people are desperate to find out what the truth is.
02:24And so the BBC is very important, and it's quite self-conscious about its importance.
02:30It does know that it has this importance,
02:32and it's also very self-critical, and it does make mistakes.
02:37It's, you know, it's run by people.
02:39It's not perfect.
02:40And I think that sometimes the BBC board takes too long to make decisions.
02:48There are times when I think that we have outstanding journalists working for the BBC.
02:53The BBC's reputation doesn't come from nowhere.
02:56It does come from the work of journalists.
02:58And there are times when mistakes are made,
03:00and there are times when the management doesn't seem to be of the same quality
03:04as the other employees who are putting out the content.
03:08Now, it doesn't mean that they shouldn't have.
03:11I mean, you know, it wasn't the BBC.
03:13It was an independent outlet that made this programme about Donald Trump
03:17and his speech and edited the two clips together.
03:22It's not like he didn't say both bits,
03:24but they shouldn't have run it together to make it seem like it was just one part of the speech
03:31running straight into the next.
03:32There was a good few minutes in between,
03:34and it was important to get the context right.
03:37But I think that's the point.
03:38It's important to get the context right.
03:41Be rigorous, and I guess that affects every public broadcaster.
03:44When you talk about, yes, the BBC is a leviathan of an organisation.
03:48It was a separate organisation putting this together,
03:50but yet it wasn't a TikTok feed.
03:53This was Panorama.
03:54This was a flagship documentary programme.
03:57When a mistake is that egregious to that error,
04:00it certainly has reason and cause for the panic,
04:03the concern that we've seen.
04:05And these two resignations, again, it's whether there's some complaints.
04:09We'll get to that in a moment,
04:10about whether to an extent the BBC has been captured,
04:12whether there's a coup,
04:13this optimistic politicising, perhaps from Trump et al as well.
04:17How do you see Keir Stolmer, Sir Keir, playing this with President Trump?
04:22We're listening to Ed Davies saying you need to step in.
04:24You need to say this is British business.
04:26This is not for you.
04:29At the moment, the view of the Prime Minister,
04:31and we heard from one of his ministers today
04:36who has responsibility for oversight of the BBC,
04:39and her view, and I believe it's the view of the government,
04:41is that the BBC can defend itself as things currently stand.
04:45Let's see what happens.
04:46And it should be listened to.
04:50It has made an apology.
04:52It is in itself, let's face it,
04:54an important source of news within the United States,
04:56and growing so,
04:58as people are desperate for the truth
05:01and desperate to find out exactly what is going on,
05:04and as other news outlets seem to be becoming intimidated,
05:08and perhaps are not being as critical
05:11or as telling the whole story in the way that they should do.
05:15You hit upon something very interesting,
05:18which is going to impact reputation on a world scale,
05:21public broadcasting, the BBC, the trust,
05:24the mass media that podcasters,
05:27people like Joe Rogan, the most listened to podcast in the world,
05:30point to, constantly berated.
05:32Now, this is his take on the scandal,
05:33and I reference it given the size and scale of his audience.
05:36He says this, the BBC, quote,
05:38it seems like these people,
05:39this is just my opinion, he says,
05:40felt justified in completely lying.
05:43This is the BBC,
05:44the height of journalistic integrity.
05:46And I say this because even if the podcaster,
05:49as an alternative to,
05:51and often outside of mainstream media,
05:53as they put it,
05:54regardless of the criticism,
05:55listening to that,
05:56to what he said,
05:58there's an acknowledgement that the BBC is,
06:00or has been,
06:00this cornerstone of trust,
06:02whether that's whether you're a podcaster,
06:04or whichever sphere that you're in.
06:07And that carries with a ripple effect.
06:10Yeah, and we're in a world where
06:11outrage gets round the world really quickly,
06:15as do lies,
06:16before, you know,
06:17before the truth has even got its trainers on.
06:19I mean, this is,
06:20this is the world of social media,
06:22this is the world of podcasts,
06:24but there is another side to this,
06:26which is, you know,
06:27if you look at the,
06:29the growth of the world service,
06:31the largest growth,
06:32the fastest growth at the moment,
06:34is areas around China,
06:36where,
06:36and it's youngsters,
06:37looking at the BBC's TikTok accounts,
06:40desperate to find out exactly what is going on.
06:42And there is a new,
06:43I think,
06:44an increasing trend,
06:45whereby people want to have explainers,
06:47they want to have,
06:48they want to understand,
06:49go to a source that will tell me,
06:51what is going on?
06:52What is the,
06:52why,
06:53why is Taiwan important to China?
06:56Tell me the history of it,
06:57tell me in a way that I can believe,
06:59and tells me the full story.
07:01For example.
07:03If we look at the,
07:05obviously it's not the only problem this week,
07:06to come out of this scandal,
07:07this appears to be a damning internal dossier,
07:10of the alleged BBC bias,
07:11on issues of trans identity,
07:13and Gaza war,
07:13which has leaked in the Telegraph.
07:15The ex-BBC advisor,
07:16the Times journalist,
07:17Michael Prescott,
07:18identifying pro-Hamas,
07:19anti-Israel slant.
07:21Most significantly,
07:22it says in BBC Arabic,
07:23one-sided selection too,
07:24on trans issues.
07:26He urges intervention from the BBC board,
07:28which gets to the point,
07:29Emily,
07:30is governance an oversight body,
07:31made up of some political appointees,
07:33including a man called Robbie Gibb,
07:35Theresa May's former advisor.
07:37Do you think there are problems,
07:39first of all,
07:39with a deep and pervasive bias at the BBC,
07:42suggested by Michael Prescott?
07:44I mean,
07:48I know of a lot of people,
07:49who complain very strongly,
07:51that when it comes to the Middle East conflict,
07:56that the BBC is very prejudiced,
07:59in favour of Israel.
08:01I know many people,
08:02who think that it's prejudiced,
08:03in favour of Palestine.
08:05I know many people,
08:06who think that the BBC,
08:08is too,
08:08quote,
08:09pro-trans,
08:10and others,
08:10who think that the BBC,
08:12isn't sufficiently sympathetic,
08:14I mean,
08:15it's kind of what happens,
08:16if you do try and tread a middle path,
08:18quite often,
08:19and if you're doing it well,
08:20both sides are likely to attack you.
08:22I mean,
08:22this is life.
08:24As for a former conservative spin doctor,
08:28being on the board of the BBC,
08:31I mean,
08:32I think that it may be one of the problems,
08:35that we have.
08:37Also,
08:37alongside that,
08:38Emily,
08:38the talk of allegations of opportunism,
08:42by right-wing politicians,
08:44opportunism condemning the mainstream media,
08:46I mentioned Joe Rogan,
08:48it's not to say he's jumping on this moment,
08:50but he's making his point clear,
08:51but also Trump's staff,
08:52including the White House press secretary,
08:53Caroline Leavitt,
08:54this week,
08:54for example,
08:54tweeting,
08:55the BBC is dying,
08:56she said,
08:57because they're anti-Trump fake news.
08:59This is the spokesperson for the White House,
09:00President Trump.
09:01Everybody should watch GB News,
09:04she says.
09:04your thoughts on what direction the BBC should go in now,
09:08to prove,
09:09to re-establish trust.
09:11I think it is really important for the BBC to remember just what a great organisation it is.
09:21I think it needs to retain its confidence.
09:23I appreciate that it is under attack.
09:25And the newspapers that you've been quoting,
09:28the British ones,
09:29if a French audience may not know,
09:31they are themselves,
09:33have quite a strong reputation as quite conservative newspapers,
09:37and it wouldn't be the sort of criticism that you would get from the left-wing newspapers.
09:40And those newspapers have had campaigns against the BBC for as long as I can remember.
09:49I think that it is important that we keep our bulwark of truth and reliability,
09:54which is the BBC,
09:55that is paid for publicly,
09:57that doesn't have a side,
09:59that does try to tread a careful path in a world where there is disinformation,
10:05where there are lies,
10:06where there are attempts to manipulate,
10:09and we need to make sure that we hold on to the sources of truth and reliability.
10:16And the BBC is most definitely one of those,
10:18and it is our duty to defend it,
10:19and I certainly am proud to do so.
10:22It's out of the frying pan, Emily,
10:24for the BBC,
10:24into the fire for Keir Starman,
10:26the leaks from his team this week.
10:28A traitor in the midst.
10:29They let slip.
10:31Who is plotting a leadership challenge?
10:33Well, it turns out they were briefing eights West Streetie,
10:35the apparent brutus to Starman's Caesar.
10:38West Streetie says there is a toxic culture inside number 10.
10:42What's going on?
10:45What's going on?
10:46I mean,
10:47I really don't know.
10:48You get so many briefings and counter briefings.
10:50I do think that these boys,
10:53and they're usually boys,
10:54I mean,
10:54they're only boys,
10:55there's like,
10:56you know,
10:56these boys in their blue suits,
10:57and they all brief against one another,
10:59and I think that they should just get on with governing the country.
11:02We've been given a great opportunity,
11:04a fantastic chance,
11:06you know,
11:07a gift by the British public,
11:08and the British public do expect us to deliver,
11:12and not to spend all our time bickering,
11:14frankly.
11:14I think they should all grow up.
11:16Which takes us to your work as Chair of the Foreign Affairs Select Committee at Dame Emily.
11:21Must be one of the most unpredictable jobs in Parliament.
11:23In terms of your daily workload,
11:26what does that average day look like for you?
11:28Is there one?
11:29There's no average day.
11:33It is extraordinary.
11:35Day last week,
11:37I saw the woman who we think got,
11:40we think that in truth,
11:42got elected as president of Belarus,
11:44but,
11:45you know,
11:46now has to live in exile.
11:48She stood for election because her husband was in jail.
11:51She stood,
11:53and we think won the election,
11:54but is now in Latvia,
11:57I think,
11:58in exile.
11:58I saw her,
11:59I saw the Ukrainian foreign minister,
12:03and I had supper in the Egyptian embassy with some members of the Arab League.
12:10So you have to kind of jump from one subject to another quite fast.
12:15But it's the most challenging and interesting job.
12:19But yes,
12:20the world has never been a more complicated or difficult place.
12:24And my job is to try to make the world,
12:27the foreign office as good as it possibly can be by holding it to account.
12:32And we need to have a British foreign office as we need to have the French state treading a careful path
12:41and being a force for good.
12:43Can we talk about some of those complications,
12:45some of those big issues right now in Britain's role as well?
12:47First in the Middle East this week,
12:49the latest reports about an obstacle,
12:52perhaps not.
12:52Trump's peace plan is the fact that there appears to be up to 200 Hamas fighters in tunnels in Rafer on the Israeli side of the so-called yellow line.
13:01There seems to be some ferocious kind of diplomacy around what to do with them.
13:05What do you want to see happen here?
13:09Personally,
13:10I think that I think that they should leave.
13:13I think that there should be somewhere for them to go to.
13:17I have some suggestions that I'll speak about offline,
13:20but I think there are places that countries that would accept them and they should go
13:24because they have no future in Gaza.
13:28But we can't just allow a vacuum to be left behind.
13:32Somebody has to be responsible for the security of the civilians in Gaza.
13:37And until that happens,
13:39the Hamas will fill the vacuum.
13:42That's the problem.
13:43So no long term future for Hamas.
13:46We need to have some form of security forces there with some legitimacy.
13:51And so that we can we can move from that to creating a the beginnings of a Palestinian state,
13:59which is what the long term aim is of the international community and and the people of Palestine.
14:05And from Gaza to Israel this week,
14:08Emily, the request in writing from President Trump to the Israeli president,
14:12asking to give a full pardon to Benjamin Netanyahu over this long running corruption case.
14:16Cigars, champagne, he says, who the hell cares about that?
14:20Do you care about that?
14:23I don't think that we should interfere in the in the in the court processes of the judicial processes of other countries.
14:30I really don't.
14:31I think that it's up to and the justice system in Israel is independent of political interference and it should remain so.
14:39Also, let's move because these are issues, as you say, you look at every day, the ongoing conflicts in Ukraine.
14:45Any lack of clearly diplomatic resolution now, it seems, is in sight because the Trump Putin summit that was talked about for so long seems to be no longer a thing.
14:53The Russians talking about how, quote, it's not a priority right now.
14:56I've heard you say one thing that could change Putin's mind.
15:00The kind of will he won't he?
15:02Yes, but no.
15:02But which is basically doing something about the frozen state assets, mostly in banks in Brussels.
15:10Absolutely.
15:11I mean, look, the the Russians are responsible for a they invaded their neighbor with no excuse.
15:20They just thought, we want that.
15:21We'll take it and moved in.
15:23That is completely unacceptable.
15:25And they are killing hundreds of thousands.
15:28And they must stop.
15:29The Ukrainians have said that they will be that they will accept an unconditional peace ceasefire.
15:36You know, let's let's just stop.
15:38And then once there is some calm, we can talk about what the future looks like.
15:42That's what the Ukrainians have said.
15:44But the Russians won't even accept that.
15:46They want to have conditions.
15:47They want to have more land before they stop.
15:49This is unacceptable.
15:51So one way of focusing Putin's mind is to say, right, we have state assets that you have kept across the world.
15:59And we will they have been frozen.
16:02And now we seize them and now they are no longer yours and we will spend them in Ukraine, rebuilding the infrastructure in Ukraine that you have that you have decimated and and supporting the Ukrainian defense system, which they need to have because you're attacking their country.
16:18And that is a very large amount of money.
16:21But quite frankly, it's a drop in the ocean compared to the amount of money the Russians are likely to owe the Ukrainians for all the damage they've done to their nation.
16:28I know that Brussels, that the prime minister there has talked about a concern of legal action, but I know I think you've said as well that where there are means there are there are ways of doing it in accordance with with international law or putting forward justifications.
16:41I think so.
16:42Yeah, I think there's a I think there's certainly an argument between lawyers on it, but I don't think that it is not there is there is a legal justification.
16:49There is a legal there is a legal case for this.
16:52And I think that we should we should just and in the end, I think what what what decides is politics.
16:57And so we should be bold and brave about this.
17:00You know, the Ukrainians need us.
17:02You know, we they're fighting a war on our behalf.
17:05If they lose this war, what will Putin do next?
17:08Putin won't stop.
17:10And and indeed, I believe that there is two wars going on.
17:14There is a war, which is the war in Ukraine, but there is also a war of disinformation, which is happening across Europe, but particularly in Eastern Europe.
17:22And it and it flares up when there are elections where the where the Russians meddle and they attempt again, you know, bringing us back to what we talked about first.
17:30They attempt to spread lies and disinformation and they try to affect elections and they try to capture people's minds.
17:37And that is another that is a new form of warfare, which is being waged on social media and through cyber attacks and and all sorts of other things that we know is going on across Europe as we speak.
17:50Which takes us back exactly to the BBC, to the fact that Russia will be jumping to joy with this when there is a moment to take advantage of, if a solid story comes out to say, oh, well, they were found wrong on this particular story.
18:02One of the stories we get a lot of texts, social media updates, emails, letters about about the frustration of what seems to be in the words of Volker Turk as well today on Sudan, this kind of stain on the international reputation of an inability to stop what has been foreseen.
18:18And we talk about the Sudan conflict, what's going on in El Fash.
18:21Now, interesting, somebody, you know, I'm sure, which is Martin Griffiths, the former UN Under Secretary General on humanitarian affairs.
18:28He said this this week. He wants to see RSF, the Rapid Support Force, designated as a terrorist group accountable for their atrocities and went on to say he said this shouldn't happen, though, until after a ceasefire.
18:40And that therefore speaks of the complication of trying to act.
18:43Yes, yes. I mean, in the end, you don't get accountability whilst a war is going on.
18:50You only get accountability afterwards. If you look at what happened in the former Yugoslavia, you know, there were in fact, in the end, you know, a lot of people were brought to trial, people who no one thought would be would be held to account.
19:04But once the war had happened, you know, once it had stopped and once regimes fell, then they had no longer they had no longer the protection that they'd had before.
19:12And actually, you begin to see the truth comes out and people are prepared to come forward and explain what happened during that war.
19:19And people then have to be held to account. We have to.
19:22We cannot allow people to believe that they can behave with impunity.
19:26Whoever they are and wherever they come from and whatever war it is, there needs to be accountability and we need to be supporting international law.
19:34Dame Emily, you are one of the longest serving and most experienced politicians within the Labour Party.
19:40Why are you not in government right now?
19:45As the Prime Minister.
19:47I mean, you've said it is and your ambition to take a seat in government.
19:50You want to serve. This is not for lack of disinterest, is it?
19:53I'd love to. I'd love to be.
19:57I mean, I think I think when you're in politics, what you want to do is you want to be able to do things.
20:02I mean, I do things in the current job that I have in terms of holding the government to account and making sure that it behaves and does the right things.
20:09I hope that I am and my committee are creative.
20:13We we make suggestions.
20:14We hold to account. We criticize when we need to.
20:17It's just really just sort of, you know, making sure that the foreign office is as good as it can be.
20:22And at a time like this, it is really important.
20:24The foreign office is as good as it can be.
20:26So I mean, I know the job I do is important, but I would like to be in government itself.
20:33Of course I would. I've never had the opportunity of doing that.
20:35And it would be great to have that opportunity.
20:37But, you know, it's a matter for the prime minister.
20:39So, hey, could there be a seat in a West Street in government?
20:42Could there be a West Street in government?
20:47I mean, I suspect what we have is we have a very difficult.
20:51I mean, the government is in a very difficult position.
20:53We got elected when we had the highest debt that our country's ever had, the highest taxes that our country's ever had and public services on their knees.
21:03And it's I mean, it is really challenging.
21:06And I think people elected a government of the soft left and thought, well, they will fix things.
21:12And we're held to a very high standard.
21:14And we've been in power for a year.
21:15And people look around and go, well, it's not fixed yet.
21:17What's the matter with the Labour government?
21:19They don't necessarily expect that from other governments, but they do expect it from us.
21:23And there's no point in complaining about it.
21:25They've given us a fantastic opportunity.
21:26What we now need to do is make sure that we are focused entirely on delivering and not not fighting amongst ourselves.
21:32And we should get behind the prime minister and and not, you know, not I mean, like it's it's it's such a waste of time and energy to spend our time fighting amongst ourselves.
21:43The public are not impressed.
21:45We should be focused on the job at hand.
21:48Really good to talk to you tonight, Dame Emily.
21:50A pleasure to get your understanding, your context on world events and inside Down the Street and on the BBC.
21:56Thank you for your time.
21:59Dame Emily.
22:00The UK Labour MP, chair of the Foreign Affairs Select Committee.
22:04Stay with us here on France 24.
22:05Coming up in 10 minutes time, the world this week for distinguished correspondents, giving their view on the events of the past seven days.
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