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Quem vai pagar para rearmar a Europa? Schirdewan e Terras enfrentam-se em The Ring
No nosso segundo episódio de "The Ring", debatemos o tema altamente político do Rearmamento da Europa, que se tornou um objetivo geopolítico da Comissão Europeia
LEIA MAIS : http://pt.euronews.com/2025/11/13/quem-vai-pagar-para-rearmar-a-europa-schirdewan-e-terras-enfrentam-se-em-the-ring
Subscreva, euronews está disponível em 12 línguas.
No nosso segundo episódio de "The Ring", debatemos o tema altamente político do Rearmamento da Europa, que se tornou um objetivo geopolítico da Comissão Europeia
LEIA MAIS : http://pt.euronews.com/2025/11/13/quem-vai-pagar-para-rearmar-a-europa-schirdewan-e-terras-enfrentam-se-em-the-ring
Subscreva, euronews está disponível em 12 línguas.
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NotíciasTranscrição
00:00Olá, e bem-vindo a The Ring,
00:11Euronews's brand-new debating show
00:13broadcasting from the European Parliament
00:15here in Brussels.
00:16Once a week, two elected members
00:19of the European Parliament
00:20go face-to-face
00:21on some of the most pressing issues
00:24of our time.
00:25This week, we zoom in on the topic
00:27of rearming Europe
00:28and ask the crucial points
00:30who will pay.
00:33Europe wants to rearm fast.
00:36Since Russia's invasion of Ukraine,
00:39EU countries have been pouring billions
00:41into defense.
00:43The upside?
00:44A European Union that is more secure
00:46and less dependent on the US.
00:49Supporters argue that a bigger defense industry
00:51also means more jobs
00:53and a stronger geopolitical role for Europe.
00:57The downside?
00:58The cost.
00:59Critics say that every euro spent on tanks
01:02and drones
01:03is one euro less
01:04for schools, hospitals
01:06or climate action.
01:08So the question isn't just how much to spend,
01:11but how to spend.
01:12Can Europe find a balance?
01:14But can Europe find a balance?
01:21That is the question we have for our contenders.
01:23Let's meet them.
01:26Rio Teres, Estonian army general
01:29and member of the European Parliament
01:31for the EPP Center-Right Group.
01:34Vice President of the Security and Defense Committee.
01:37A cheerleader for defense spending,
01:39he has stated,
01:40what we need is for the market
01:43to provide the necessary quantities of ammunition,
01:46missiles and various defense equipment.
01:50Martin Scherdevan,
01:52co-chair of the left group
01:53in the European Parliament.
01:55He strongly criticizes shifting money
01:57away from social programs to defense.
02:00His verdict on the European Commission's
02:03Rearm Europe plan was blunt.
02:05Investing billions in war
02:08will not make the world safer
02:10or more peaceful, he said.
02:14Rio Teres and Martin Scherdevan,
02:16welcome to the ring.
02:18The idea here is to give our viewers
02:20a taste of your debates
02:22inside the European hemicycle.
02:24So I hope you feel right at home.
02:26Rio Teres, let's start with you.
02:28You say the market should be providing
02:29defense equipment,
02:30but with tight budgets,
02:32who should pay?
02:33Nations should pay.
02:34But nations are broke.
02:36Nations aren't broke.
02:37They have been able to spend money
02:39on many other things,
02:40for example, climate change.
02:42At the current moment,
02:44where the war is imminent in Europe,
02:46we need to get stronger
02:47because Europe has not spent
02:50enough in the last 35 years.
02:53We are not talking about arms race.
02:56We are talking about fulfilling
02:58the promises we have made ourselves
03:00many years ago.
03:01But where is that money going to come from?
03:04Well, as Rio said now,
03:05for now it's coming from the public budget.
03:08And this is, of course, a problem
03:09because every euro invested
03:11into the arms manufacturers
03:13will not go into, for instance,
03:15hospitals, schools,
03:17digital infrastructure
03:19or the necessary transition of our industry.
03:23So this is a huge problem.
03:25I would suggest that we take the money
03:27from those who have it,
03:28that we discuss new own resources
03:30for the European budget.
03:32And that means that we tax the rich,
03:34that we tax multinational enterprises,
03:36and that we also discuss something
03:38like a digital taxation
03:39for big tech companies.
03:40Would you agree with this idea?
03:41No, not at all.
03:42I think the defense is still
03:44prerogative of the nations
03:46and not the European Union as a whole.
03:48So the nations themselves
03:49need to fulfill their own promises.
03:52And if somebody tells me
03:54that it is not possible
03:55to build up a social state
03:57and invest in the defense,
03:59that's wrong because history has shown us
04:01that German Federal Republic of Germany
04:04during many years in the Cold War
04:06was able to build up
04:07one of the most capable social systems
04:10in the world.
04:11At the same time,
04:12they invested 3.5% on the GDP on defense
04:15because it is necessary
04:16and people understood why.
04:18What about the idea of defense euro bonds,
04:20Martin Schrodinger?
04:21Well, first of all,
04:22we don't have a Marshall plan today
04:23for the European Union,
04:24European defense,
04:25because you were referring to Germany.
04:27That was the case back in the day.
04:29So there were huge investments
04:30coming from the international
04:31community to Germany.
04:33But this is not the case today.
04:34So we need to really think about
04:36how to raise money.
04:37And you mentioned euro bonds
04:38for the arms industry.
04:39I don't think that this is a good idea
04:41because we are already on the way
04:43to take on more debts
04:45by giving loans to the member states
04:48that they can then invest
04:50into military purposes.
04:53So I do not think that this is a good idea
04:54to go on following this wrong path.
04:57I think we are derailing the discussion here.
04:59It's not about to spend money
05:01on health care systems
05:03or defense.
05:04It's about defending Europe
05:05because we see that an aggressive Russia
05:08is willing and able
05:10to use conventional military weapons
05:12against countries.
05:13And Putin has very often declared
05:16that he wants to rearrange
05:18the security system in Europe.
05:19And if we are not ready,
05:21if we don't fulfill our own taken tasks,
05:24then we are not able to defend Europe
05:27as a whole and separate countries of it.
05:29And Martin Sheldon,
05:29that is a fair point
05:30what Rio Terrace makes there
05:32because just think of Brussels
05:33just the other day.
05:34The airport was shut down
05:35for 30 minutes
05:37because of drone incursions,
05:39allegedly Russian drone incursions,
05:40buzzing over Dool,
05:41the nuclear plant,
05:42right by the port of Antwerp.
05:44Brussels had to call the UK
05:46in order to come and help
05:47but wasn't able to defend itself
05:48in this situation.
05:49Yeah, exactly.
05:49That was supposedly a Russian drone.
05:51We don't know that yet.
05:52But I'm not defending Russia here.
05:53Maybe it was Russia.
05:54Maybe it was the third country.
05:55Maybe it was a private here.
05:56Who knows?
05:57But obviously Europe is tested
05:59also in its military capabilities.
06:02So, of course,
06:03we need to do something
06:04in order to discuss
06:05how to defend the European Union,
06:07how to defend the member states
06:08in case there would be
06:10a violation of international law,
06:12meaning an attack
06:12against one of the member states.
06:14This is not the case so far.
06:15So we can take time
06:17but just a little bit
06:18to discuss how to spend wisely
06:19the money that we have
06:21at our hands into defense.
06:23And a new security order
06:24does not only depend
06:26on defense capabilities,
06:28it also depends
06:29on how we implement
06:30international law,
06:31how we strengthen
06:32international organizations.
06:34And this is something
06:34that I'm really missing,
06:36especially in the discussion
06:37of the conservatives.
06:38Reaction to that?
06:40Now, I agree that
06:41there are all other mechanisms
06:43there,
06:43but the one and the only
06:45which really is understood
06:47by Putin
06:47is if you have more weapons
06:49than him,
06:50he has.
06:51So it is very easy for me,
06:53very plain.
06:54If you are strong enough,
06:55then he will start
06:56to negotiate.
06:57If you are not strong,
06:58he will laugh about you
06:59as he has done
06:59throughout the years
07:01in the last two decades.
07:03And are you pleased
07:04with the trends lately?
07:05We've seen defense spending
07:06has gone up
07:07in the past few years,
07:08Rio Terras.
07:09According to Eurostat,
07:10between 2021 and 2024,
07:14the total defense spending
07:15of the EU countries
07:16rose by 37%,
07:18whereas when it comes
07:19to social protection,
07:20it only rose by a tiny bit.
07:23How do you feel
07:24when you read this data,
07:25Martin Scherdevant?
07:26Well, I think this is
07:27completely out of line,
07:28this development.
07:29I mean,
07:30Rio referred to Russia
07:32and the threat Russia
07:32poses to the European Union.
07:34This is always
07:35the explanation
07:36why we have to spend
07:37more and more
07:38and more money
07:38into our defense capabilities.
07:41But I think, actually,
07:42that we really need
07:43to discuss
07:44what that means.
07:46In the end,
07:46it means a new way...
07:47What is your solution then
07:47to protect Europe?
07:48Imagine if there was
07:49potentially an invasion,
07:50if an EU member state
07:51was invading.
07:51If we have a look
07:52at the numbers,
07:53let's take a look
07:54at the numbers.
07:55NATO is spending
07:55nine or ten times
07:57what Russia is spending
07:58for its defense
07:59and military capabilities.
08:01Even the European
08:02NATO member states
08:03spend four times
08:05what Russia spends.
08:06So there is
08:06no rational explanation
08:08why we should again
08:09spend more and more.
08:09But what about
08:10Russia's nuclear arsenal?
08:13They have 5,500 nuclear...
08:15They have that for decades now.
08:16That is no new development,
08:18right?
08:18How can we deter
08:19against that threat?
08:20The problem is
08:21that we have been spending
08:22less and less and less
08:23throughout the last 30 years.
08:25It's not about
08:26we are spending more.
08:27It's about
08:28starting to spend at all.
08:31Because the defense
08:32spendages,
08:33if you look
08:33from 1990
08:35to 2020,
08:37then you will see
08:38how much we have lost,
08:40how big period of time
08:42we have lost
08:42because we have not invested
08:43what we promised ourselves.
08:45it's not about
08:465%, 10%,
08:47it's about
08:48just 2%.
08:49It's exactly
08:50the same amount
08:51of money
08:51that Estonia saved
08:53introducing
08:54the digital
08:55government system.
08:57Is it possible
08:57to find the balance,
08:58do you think?
09:00It would be possible
09:01if you would look
09:01for other resources.
09:03And as I said,
09:03we need to discuss
09:04the introduction
09:05of new own resources.
09:07And now we have
09:07the discussion
09:08with the
09:08MyTN financial framework
09:09which allows us
09:10to look at
09:11new own resources.
09:12And this for me,
09:13of course,
09:13means that we need
09:14to redistribute wealth
09:15in a society
09:16if we have
09:16those challenges
09:17in front of us
09:18and we need
09:19to tackle them.
09:19I agree.
09:20We need to tackle
09:20the challenges
09:21but therefore
09:22we need money.
09:23That's not going to happen.
09:24I mean,
09:24the budget talks
09:24have already kicked off
09:25in Brussels.
09:26We can see
09:26how torturous they are.
09:27The strength
09:29of the European Union
09:30lies also
09:31on competitiveness.
09:32And if we start
09:33to introduce
09:33new taxes
09:34and distribute
09:36wealth
09:36which we don't have
09:37right now
09:38because we are not
09:39in the very good
09:40economical situation
09:42then we will have
09:43less money
09:44to spend on defense.
09:45So we need
09:46to make Europe
09:47competitive again
09:49which it's not
09:50right now
09:50and at the same time
09:52we need to invest
09:53and not
09:54the European Union
09:54but the countries
09:55need to invest
09:56what they have promised
09:57to their defense.
09:59But then,
10:00Rio,
10:00really you need
10:01to mention that
10:02because you are
10:02not doing that
10:03then I will do it.
10:04Each euro
10:05invested into
10:06arms manufacturers
10:07means that
10:08there is no money
10:09left for
10:10social cohesion
10:11for instance
10:11and this will cause
10:13a new wave
10:13of austerity
10:14in Europe
10:15which in the end
10:16means that
10:17those who have
10:17the least
10:18suffer the most
10:19working class families
10:20will pay for
10:21this arms race
10:22that you are
10:23advocating for.
10:24Well that conflict
10:25is not existent.
10:27We see in Estonia
10:28the government
10:28decided to spend
10:295% on the GDP
10:31on defense
10:32and the Estonian
10:33mothers want
10:34the mother care
10:34as well
10:34but the people
10:35are supporting it
10:36by 80%
10:36because they understand
10:38the urgency
10:38of the situation
10:39and you don't need
10:41social services
10:41in Russia
10:42because as we see
10:43in Donetsk
10:45Russia does not
10:46give you social services
10:47it kills your people
10:48your children
10:48and all so on
10:50so it's
10:51But this is not Russia
10:51this is
10:52the European Union
10:53people are used
10:54to relying on
10:55This is not a discussion
10:56But our citizens
10:57expect us to invest
10:58into public services
10:59and social security systems
11:01and they are rightfully
11:02And make sure
11:03that the country exists
11:04Yes
11:05I mean they do exist
11:06At the moment
11:08where it is attacked
11:09by Russia
11:09it is not forgiven
11:10and that is
11:11the discussion about
11:13Well let me stop you there
11:14as it is now time
11:15to take the gloves off
11:16Now I want to give our viewers
11:24a real taste
11:25of the European Parliament
11:26chambers
11:26where MEPs fire
11:28hard questions
11:29at each other
11:30That means Rio Terrace
11:31and Martin Shredovan
11:32will now have the opportunity
11:34to challenge
11:34each other directly
11:35just like you do
11:36in the hemicycle
11:38So Martin Shredovan
11:38can you start please?
11:40Rio
11:40We met before
11:43and you often say
11:44that this war
11:45in Ukraine
11:46will be won
11:46on the battlefield
11:47Now then
11:48since Trump
11:50engaged in
11:51whatsoever
11:52diplomatic efforts
11:54and even Ursula von der Leyen
11:55changed her language
11:56Do you still believe
11:57that this war
11:58will be won
11:59on the battlefield
12:00while Russia
12:00is advancing
12:01or do you agree with me
12:02that we need to ramp up
12:04our diplomatic efforts
12:05to end this war?
12:07Well
12:07I have always been
12:08in the position
12:09and think that
12:10dialogue is the best way
12:12but dialogue
12:13needs two sides
12:14If one side
12:15is not willing
12:16to talk
12:17you can do
12:18whatever you want
12:19Putin will not
12:19come back to the table
12:20if we are
12:21not strong enough
12:22and right now
12:24Putin does not
12:24think we are
12:26strong enough
12:26and we are not
12:27supporting Ukraine
12:28in the numbers
12:29we really need to do
12:30Yes the war is won
12:31at the battlefield
12:32And Putin invaded a country
12:34and it seems like
12:35he's literally
12:35getting away with it
12:36Rio Terrace
12:37it's your opportunity
12:38now to address
12:38the question
12:39to Martin Sherdogan
12:39The response to that
12:41are you really sure
12:43that the known
12:45war criminal
12:46Putin
12:47is willing
12:49to come
12:49to the negotiation
12:50table
12:51in the situation
12:52where he has not
12:54listened to
12:55any discussions
12:56beforehand
12:56and why
12:58you think so
12:59and should we
13:00sit with the
13:01four criminal
13:01at one table
13:02Well we need
13:03to end this war
13:04this should be
13:04the objective here
13:05not judging
13:06that war criminal
13:07I agree
13:08he is a war criminal
13:09but we need
13:10to end this war
13:10and therefore
13:11we need to discuss
13:12how to
13:12So discussion with a war criminal
13:13is legal
13:13Please let me answer
13:14please let me reply
13:15so therefore
13:16we need to
13:17to end this war
13:17and therefore
13:18we need to think
13:18about how to do it
13:19and I think
13:20there are several
13:20options on the table
13:22first engaging
13:23in a more
13:24coordinated
13:25diplomatic
13:26effort
13:27like
13:27including also
13:29and taking on board
13:30China
13:30who wields
13:31a huge influence
13:32over Russia
13:33and also India
13:35Russia is dependent
13:36on
13:36economically dependent
13:37on India
13:38so we need to
13:39take them on board
13:39and then of course
13:40we need to target
13:41the sanctions
13:42we have a sanctions
13:43regime in place
13:44but we need to be
13:45more precise
13:46in targeting
13:46the industrial
13:48military complex
13:49of Russia
13:49Do you endorse
13:50the fact that
13:51Viktor Orban
13:52the Prime Minister
13:52of Hungary
13:53and the Slovakian
13:54Robert Fijo
13:54have the lines
13:55still directly open
13:56to Moscow
13:57and Beijing?
13:57Do I endorse
13:59that Trump
14:00invited Putin
14:02to Anchorage
14:02Alaska?
14:03Well
14:04what can I say
14:05about that?
14:05He did that
14:06and he kicked off
14:07as hard as it is
14:09to admit
14:10for European politicians
14:11he kicked off
14:12a process
14:12that might
14:14in the end
14:14eventually lead
14:16to an end
14:17diplomatic end
14:18of the war
14:19we will see
14:20if this happens
14:20or not
14:21but he kicked off
14:22something new
14:22Would you agree
14:24with that?
14:24It's naive
14:25it's naive
14:26to think
14:26that Putin
14:27comes to the table
14:29all attempts
14:30of Trump
14:31of Wanderlion
14:32many presidents
14:33have called
14:33everybody has called him
14:35he doesn't care
14:36about it
14:36because he feels
14:38that he's strong enough
14:39to go on
14:40with the war
14:41Time for you
14:42to address
14:42your next question
14:43to Martin Cherdovan
14:43Putin announced
14:45that he wants
14:46to rearrange
14:47the world order
14:48to say
14:48what it was
14:491997
14:50so coming
14:51to the discussion
14:53table
14:53would you really
14:54think that
14:55NATO
14:56should withdraw
14:57from the Baltic states
14:59from Finland
15:00and Sweden
15:00etc
15:01from Poland
15:01even
15:02or even
15:02from the
15:03eastern Germany
15:04in order
15:05to please
15:06Putin
15:07and bring him
15:08to the discussion
15:09table
15:09But Rio
15:10I never said
15:10something like that
15:11I never said
15:12something like that
15:13but what I'm
15:13proposing
15:14is
15:15that we work
15:16on a
15:16stable
15:17international
15:18security order
15:19and of course
15:20NATO plays a role
15:21in that
15:22but we need
15:23to take
15:23into consideration
15:24security guarantees
15:25for many
15:26political actors
15:27now like
15:27China
15:28like India
15:29like Russia
15:30like European Union
15:31and of course
15:32the United States
15:32but that means
15:33to rethink
15:34a stable
15:35international order
15:35and we are
15:36far from that
15:37because the
15:38European Commission
15:39doesn't play
15:39any geopolitical role
15:41Your chance
15:43to address
15:43the question
15:43now to Rio
15:44Alright
15:45So we already
15:47touched upon
15:47the question
15:48of financing
15:49our expenditure
15:51for military purposes
15:53and you are
15:55advocating
15:55for using
15:56public money
15:57the public budget
15:58which as I already
16:00explained
16:00will lead
16:01to austerity
16:02a new wave
16:02of austerity
16:03Would you agree
16:04with me
16:04that we need
16:06new sources
16:07to raise money
16:09if we want
16:10to tackle
16:10our challenges
16:11both at
16:12international level
16:13and internally
16:15at the social level
16:16No I think
16:17we should invest
16:19more wisely
16:19we should try
16:20to cooperate more
16:21we should try
16:22to make
16:23our defence industry
16:24more effective
16:25so that
16:26for every euro
16:27we will get
16:28more impact
16:29but never
16:29I would agree
16:30with more
16:31taxes on
16:34European citizens
16:35No not on citizens
16:37He's referring
16:37to tax the rich
16:38tax the rich
16:38but the rich
16:39as far as I know
16:41the rich
16:41are the citizens
16:42of Europe
16:43as much
16:44as the poor
16:44so that is
16:46absolutely
16:47then let's tax
16:48US American
16:49and Chinese
16:50big tech companies
16:51Would you be
16:52in favour of that?
16:53Well I would say
16:54competitiveness
16:55is not won
16:55by taxes
16:56it's by
16:57investing in
16:59the new technologies
16:59and by making
17:01ourselves stronger
17:02not try to get
17:03money from the others
17:04look we have
17:05heard now from
17:06Martin Shurdovan
17:07and Rio Terrace
17:08and I'd like to
17:08bring in
17:09a new voice
17:09now
17:10The EU Council
17:16President
17:16Antonio Costa
17:17has been making
17:18headlines of late
17:19for his ambitious
17:20statements on the
17:21future of European
17:22defence
17:23speaking to EU
17:24heads of state
17:25and government
17:25recently
17:26he said
17:26to build
17:27the Europe
17:28of defence
17:28we need
17:29efficient
17:30political oversight
17:31and coordination
17:32and he said
17:33our defence
17:33ministers need
17:34to play
17:34an increased
17:35role
17:36Martin
17:36how do you
17:37interpret
17:37this statement
17:38is it the
17:38first step
17:39towards a
17:39European defence
17:40union
17:40or may I
17:41add an EU
17:42army
17:42Yeah well
17:43he hasn't been
17:44very clear
17:44about that
17:45but what I
17:46think he is
17:46right about
17:47is that we
17:48really need
17:48to coordinate
17:49better
17:50so for now
17:50we are just
17:51discussing
17:51imaginary figures
17:52that the
17:52European commission
17:53came up with
17:54based on no
17:55assessment of
17:56whatsoever
17:56we really need
17:57Is there an
17:58appetite Rio Terrace
17:59to coordinate
17:59I mean the EU
18:00and NATO
18:01together
18:01an industry
18:02of course
18:02together
18:02because they're
18:03all competing
18:03Yeah well
18:04I think
18:05NATO has
18:06put requirements
18:07on the
18:07on the
18:07countries
18:08of
18:08members
18:09of NATO
18:09which
18:10are part
18:12of the
18:12European
18:12Union
18:13so we
18:14have the
18:14requirements
18:14we know
18:15the numbers
18:15but yes
18:16I think
18:16the coordination
18:17between the
18:18ministers of
18:18defence
18:18is important
18:19in order
18:20to enable
18:22Commissioner
18:23Kubilius
18:24to work
18:24with them
18:25together
18:25better solutions
18:27for our
18:27own defence
18:28And where
18:29is the market
18:29hedging
18:29its best
18:30because we
18:30remember
18:31a few years
18:32ago
18:32everyone
18:32in Brussels
18:33was discussing
18:33the European
18:34Green Deal
18:35as the growth
18:35model
18:35now it's all
18:36about defence
18:37We should be
18:38balanced
18:38we should not
18:39focus on one
18:40and then another
18:41we should do both
18:42we should be
18:42social state also
18:43I agree
18:44but it needs to be
18:45balanced
18:45This week COP30
18:47is taking place
18:48how can we
18:48rearm Europe
18:49by 2030
18:49and also
18:50go green
18:51This is not
18:52going to happen
18:52with the proposal
18:53that the commission
18:54just made
18:54for the
18:54multi-financial
18:55framework
18:56for the EU
18:56budget
18:56it's focusing
18:57solely on
18:58armament
18:59rearmament
19:00Europe
19:00and not focusing
19:01on the
19:01green deal
19:02anymore
19:02your party
19:03family wants
19:03to get rid
19:04of the
19:04green deal
19:04and it's also
19:05putting into
19:06question
19:07the social
19:08state of
19:08Europe
19:08The biggest threat
19:10to sustainability
19:10of Europe
19:11is if
19:13Russia
19:14attacks
19:14European countries
19:15And again
19:16it's always Russia
19:17It is
19:18It is
19:19Today
19:19backed by China
19:20Not believing
19:22in naive thinking
19:23that China
19:24will be on our side
19:25Never
19:26A communist country
19:27will never be
19:27on European side
19:28because we are
19:29democracies
19:30and we are
19:30defending here
19:31democracy
19:32The reason
19:33why Russia
19:33attacked
19:34Ukraine
19:35in 2022
19:36and 2014
19:37was because
19:38Ukraine wanted
19:39to have an
19:39association
19:40agreement
19:40with the
19:41European Union
19:41It's not
19:42about NATO
19:42It's about
19:43free will
19:43of a free
19:44country
19:44It is time
19:45now to take
19:45a short break
19:46here on The Ring
19:47but stay with us
19:48We will be back
19:48very very soon
19:49with some more
19:50political punch
19:51Welcome back
20:00to The Ring
20:01Euronews'
20:02new weekly show
20:03I'm joined by
20:04MEPs
20:05Martin Cherdovan
20:06from the left
20:06and Rio Terras
20:08from the European
20:08People's Party
20:09and the idea
20:10here is to bring
20:11the European
20:11Parliament's
20:12debates to
20:12your couch
20:13So what about
20:14you?
20:15What do you think
20:15about the EU's
20:16drive to pump
20:17up defence?
20:18Well, according
20:19to EU data
20:2078% of Europeans
20:23are indeed
20:24concerned about
20:25the EU's
20:25defence insecurity
20:26in the next
20:27five years
20:28That's 8 in 10
20:29Europeans
20:30How do you
20:31feel about that?
20:32I can understand
20:33that obviously
20:34the international
20:35order is in turmoil
20:36and of course
20:37we need to provide
20:38also to our citizens
20:39stability
20:40and that also means
20:42defence stability
20:43What you're saying
20:43is very similar
20:44to what the head
20:45of the EPP
20:45said this week
20:46He said
20:46alone and naked
20:47we stand
20:48in a world of storms
20:49Yeah, well
20:50it only shows
20:51that I'm right
20:52we need to spend
20:52more in defence
20:53and try to do it
20:55clever
20:56What do your voters
20:57think?
20:58Well, our voters
20:59my voters back home
21:00understand the necessity
21:01we understand it
21:02already since 2010
21:04as Estonia
21:05was spending
21:062% of the GDP
21:07on defence
21:08as we promised
21:09to NATO
21:09Today it's
21:105%
21:11which we invest
21:13but the Estonia's
21:15problem
21:15with 1 million
21:16people
21:17is that our 100%
21:18is too small
21:19and we need to
21:21make sure
21:21that countries
21:22like Germany
21:23France
21:23Spain
21:24and Italy
21:26spend the same
21:27You're praising
21:27of course
21:27your country of Estonia
21:28which is obviously
21:29your job as an MEP
21:30but it's a much
21:31smaller country
21:31other countries
21:32like your
21:32in Germany
21:33much bigger
21:34challenges
21:34in this area
21:35Yeah, well
21:36the 5% target
21:37of the NATO
21:38means that
21:39Germany has to
21:40spend hundreds
21:40of millions
21:41into the military
21:43and this is
21:44of course
21:45a huge burden
21:46both for the
21:47public budget
21:48but also for
21:49the citizens
21:49and this is debated
21:50very controversially
21:51in Germany
21:52and I actually
21:53I do not agree
21:54with that
21:54because the amount
21:55of money
21:56will only lead
21:57to cuts
21:57in public services
21:58and social security
21:59and this is unacceptable
22:00So citizens are not
22:01really on board
22:01with this plan
22:0280% of the people
22:04in Europe
22:04They are not
22:05that clearly
22:06in Germany
22:07I mean they are
22:08concerned
22:08They are in Germany also
22:09It's not that
22:10German public
22:11is against
22:11defence spending
22:12That is not true
22:13I think they're
22:13concerned
22:14until when it comes
22:15to the money
22:15coming from their pocket
22:16Well that's always
22:17the case
22:17and that's why
22:19democracy works
22:20You elect people
22:21who take decisions
22:22for you
22:22and then next time
22:23you elect
22:24No that is too easy
22:25That is too easy
22:26Leo
22:26because that means
22:27actually that public money
22:28meaning taxpayers money
22:30meaning our money
22:31and the working class
22:32family's money
22:33goes directly
22:34into the pockets
22:34of the big shareholders
22:35of the arms manufacturers
22:37This is not that easy
22:38and people are discussing
22:39that we have to be honest
22:40No it makes Europe stronger
22:41It makes Europe stronger
22:43But can you name
22:44a single situation
22:45where world power
22:48without military packing
22:50has changed history
22:52But Martin Sheridan
22:53is right
22:53the arms industry
22:54will get much richer
22:55but will ordinary citizens
22:56benefit too
22:57We should use more SMEs
22:59we should get the money
23:00Then we should tax them
23:01Then we should tax them
23:02Yeah
23:02But you don't agree
23:03with that idea
23:03We should not tax
23:05the big ones
23:05but we should
23:06make sure
23:07Tax the small ones
23:08Make sure
23:09that the money comes
23:11to the SMEs
23:12to the small technology companies
23:13which right now
23:15are disrupting
23:17the battlefield
23:17in Ukraine
23:18We need to get
23:19the big money
23:20not to the big primes
23:21but to the SMEs
23:23who are creating
23:25working space
23:26who are creating jobs
23:27for the ordinary people
23:29SME is the backbone
23:30who can earn more money
23:31The money comes back to you
23:32if you are clever enough
23:33It's a wishful thinking
23:34do you think Martin Sheridan
23:35this idea to rearm Europe
23:37by 2030
23:38No not really wishful thinking
23:40because there are
23:41huge investments
23:41on the way
23:42and I agree with the idea
23:44that we need to be capable
23:45to defend ourselves
23:46But as also Rio
23:48now confirmed
23:49we need to spend
23:50the money more wisely
23:51in order to address
23:52the new challenges
23:52cyber attacks
23:54drone warfare etc
23:55and we have to be
23:56very precise
23:57in our assessment
23:57what we need
23:58as a society
23:59as European society
24:00and that assessment
24:02hasn't been done yet
24:03and I do
24:03completely disagree
24:04that's why
24:05I do completely disagree
24:06with the proposals
24:07on the table
24:08And Rio
24:08how are you convincing
24:09other countries
24:10because of course
24:11Estonia is very close
24:12to Russia
24:13you feel the threats
24:13every day
24:14countries like Spain
24:15Italy, Greece
24:16they have other issues
24:17on their minds
24:18like migration for example
24:19Well the war criminal
24:20Putin is helping us
24:22always
24:22if I have difficulties
24:23to convince somebody
24:24he would attack somebody
24:26and the events
24:27in Brussels airport
24:28recently show us
24:31that everybody
24:32is endangered
24:33everybody
24:33from Spain
24:34to Portugal
24:35everywhere
24:36and we need to understand
24:38that the migration
24:39is not an existential threat
24:41migration is a threat
24:42to our way of life
24:44to our economy
24:45but war
24:47is an existential threat
24:49and that is a difference
24:50Final reaction to that
24:50would you agree?
24:51Yeah well
24:52I really don't get that
24:53I mean how can you say
24:54that migration
24:55you put it all
24:56in one basket
24:57You put it all in one basket
24:59there is no clear
25:00political line
25:01why do you bring
25:02now
25:02I was not
25:03putting it all
25:03in one basket
25:04I was just highlighting
25:05the challenges
25:06and the issues
25:07facing other member states
25:09but it is now
25:09time to move on
25:11to our fifth
25:11and final round
25:13are you ready?
25:18Now it is time
25:20for something different
25:21I'm going to ask you
25:22a set of questions
25:23and I require
25:24a yes or no answer
25:25Is this doable?
25:27I hope so
25:27Let's find out
25:28Let's find out
25:30Should the EU develop
25:32its own nuclear deterrent strategy?
25:34Yes or no?
25:35No
25:35No
25:37Can the EU ever
25:39be a military power?
25:40Yes or no?
25:41It is
25:42Yes
25:43What about military conscription?
25:46Is this a good idea?
25:47Yes or no?
25:48I have my doubts
25:49Conscription is the only way
25:51for small countries
25:52I don't know about big ones
25:53Should EU countries
25:55spend at least 2%
25:56of their GDP
25:57on defence?
25:58Well it depends
25:59on what we actually need
26:01Yes or no?
26:01I would say
26:02let's look into it
26:04Yes of course
26:05Not even more
26:06Is Russia's threat
26:08big enough
26:09to justify
26:09the current surge
26:10in spending?
26:11No
26:11Russia is not justified
26:12to do anything
26:13at the moment
26:13I think
26:14Yes it is
26:15Will Europe ever
26:16be military independent
26:17from the United States?
26:18Yes or no?
26:19Yes
26:19Yes
26:21Should the EU funds
26:22be used
26:23to subsidise weapons?
26:24Yes or no?
26:25Yes
26:25No
26:26It is not allowed
26:28by the European treaties
26:29by the way
26:29Even though it is
26:30on the cards?
26:31Yeah
26:31Should taxpayers
26:33accept higher public debt
26:35to fund military build-up?
26:37In separate countries
26:37yes
26:37No
26:38Should EU defence projects
26:40prioritise European companies
26:41only
26:42even if it raises costs?
26:43Yes or no?
26:44No
26:44At the current moment
26:45we need to take
26:46whatever is available
26:47in the world
26:47Same question to you?
26:49We should prioritise
26:51the European industry
26:52yes
26:52And what about drones?
26:54Is the future of warfare
26:55on drones?
26:57No
26:57on people
26:57Ah well
26:58the future is on peace
27:00Final question
27:01Have you agreed
27:02with anything
27:03that Martin Sheridan
27:04has said here?
27:05Yes
27:05that we need to be
27:06smarter in spending
27:07on defence
27:08What about you?
27:10Well
27:10no
27:12I have my difficulties
27:13to find something
27:14that I agree with
27:15that you just said
27:16But at least
27:17we have brought you
27:18together here on The Ring
27:19Martin Sherdogan
27:20and Rio Taras
27:21thank you so much
27:22for being on The Ring
27:23Thank you so much
27:23Thank you
27:23And thank you so much
27:24for watching
27:25If you have a comment
27:26for us
27:27do reach out
27:27thering
27:28at euronews.com
27:30That is our email address
27:31Tell us how you feel
27:32about the EU's
27:33focus on defence
27:35Thanks for watching
27:35and see you soon
27:36We'll see you soon
27:38Now
27:40We'll see you soon
27:41in the future
27:41All right
27:42We'll see you soon
27:42We'll see you soon
27:42on the second
27:43The Ring
27:44of the Ring
27:45of the Ring
27:45Legenda Adriana Zanotto
Comente primeiro