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Interview with a Killer - Season 3 Episode 3 -
Wrath – Julius Mullins
Wrath – Julius Mullins
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00:00I looked at my hands and saw all the blood and that was everywhere and blood everywhere yeah
00:08could smell it yeah yeah you could smell it see it on the carpet a grizzly murder tears through
00:16the heart of a small town as a high school football star makes a deadly decision 38 stab
00:22wounds strangulation and the gunshot in that moment did you realize what you'd become I knew
00:31that more likely I was either gonna die or that I was going to prison today Julius Mullins is
00:38confronted like never before about the brutal murder of his ex-girlfriend's mother Manuela
00:44Allen police told you there was evidence of quote excessive rage at the crime scene they asked you
00:51if you were thinking of someone else at the time were you thinking of Melanie enraged by the police
00:57that she was off having sex with other boys no you're sure about that was it really a robbery
01:05turned bad as he has long claimed or was there something much darker at play hidden behind this
01:12young killer's vacant eyes it sounds like an evil game of chess that you're playing with these people's
01:19lives yeah sadly I guess you could say that was this straight-up revenge to punish Melanie for
01:26breaking your heart do you think you might have murdered Manuela to even the score for the heartache
01:34that you suffered
01:37you
01:39you
01:41you
01:43you
01:45you
01:47you
01:51you
01:53you
02:10you
02:12you
02:14you
02:33you
02:35you
02:37you
02:44you
02:46you
03:00you
03:02you
03:11you
03:25you
03:27you
03:36you
03:50you
03:52you
03:55you
04:01and that's not a reason to do this to your mother
04:02Mullins pleaded guilty and was sentenced to 55 years in prison and will be up for parole in 2047
04:06he claims he panicked and killed Manuel Allen when she caught him trying to rob the family's valuable gun collection
04:13But because there wasn't a trial, questions remain about that fateful night and Mullen's true motives.
04:20Was it actually a burglary gone wrong, or were there even darker forces at play?
04:27I headed to a prison two hours outside Dallas to find out.
04:31Okay, all right. I want to ask you today to help us understand the boy you were at 18.
04:45That 18-year-old boy who went off the rails. That's why we're here, Julius.
04:50Tell me, why did you want to talk to us today?
04:54I figured once your organization reached out that y'all have questions
04:59because everybody who has watched the other interviews that I've done,
05:04they said that it left them with nothing but more questions.
05:08Mullen's has spoken to media organizations in the past, but it yielded only superficial answers.
05:14Why did you blame Peter?
05:17I have no comment.
05:18I wanted to probe beyond what was on the record and behind those vacant eyes.
05:25Before we get into the case, I want to go back.
05:27You come from what looks like a loving two-parent family.
05:33Yeah, it was.
05:34I watched a video of you at 14 at a birthday party.
05:39Happy birthday to you.
05:44You seem surrounded by love.
05:46You're smiling.
05:47Is that an accurate picture of your life at that point?
05:52Yeah.
05:53Certain times.
05:54There was certain days that were ups and downs, kind of like any other family.
05:58You struggled in school.
06:00You were left back at one point.
06:01Nothing especially unusual about that.
06:04You excelled on the football field.
06:06Yeah.
06:07Right.
06:07That was something I really loved doing was sports, not just football.
06:11But Mullen says he gave up on football in school and gave in to juvenile delinquency.
06:18It seems that you strayed from that path.
06:20Why do you think that was?
06:21I started to get introduced to those things like drugs, running the street, stuff like that.
06:29And when I got more involved with those people, the things I was doing, the things that I was doing right, it just didn't seem more appealing to me.
06:37In his sophomore year of high school, Mullen's found love with a teenage girl who was everything he was not, Melanie Allen.
06:484.0 grade average, robotics, sports.
06:52I mean, she was really the whole package.
06:55And am I right that she was the class valedictorian in her year?
06:59Yeah.
07:00Yeah, she was.
07:01So was this kind of like opposites attract?
07:05Yeah.
07:05I'd say that in the beginning, it was kind of young love.
07:12When she agreed to be your girlfriend, how did that make you feel?
07:18I was elated.
07:20I was elated.
07:21I felt like I think any man would like the highest guy in the world.
07:25Like there was nothing that you couldn't do.
07:28You know what I mean?
07:29She brought you home, right, to her family to meet them.
07:33And it sounds like the Allens embraced or at least tolerated you, right?
07:38Yeah.
07:39Yeah, you could say that.
07:40For the first time, Mullins breaks from his baseline flat affect and surprises me with an awkward grin.
07:47But I can't quite tell what's behind it.
07:51Her mother embraced me.
07:52Her father was a little bit tougher, as all fathers are.
07:58Melanie's mother, Manuela, was a beloved teacher at Olney High School, where both Julius and Melanie were students.
08:04Everybody says she was a saint.
08:06She was.
08:08She was the type that when she would walk in, like you could, you would just feel happiness, you know?
08:12You wouldn't feel like, oh, this is another day, you know?
08:16Like even when she's just walking through the halls, she just had a smile on her face and would always give an encouraging word to whoever was around her.
08:25And when you started dating her daughter, did she sort of try and help you?
08:32You went to her, you know, as a confidant for advice sometimes?
08:37Yeah, she would give me advice on certain things.
08:41And what about Melanie's father, Peter?
08:43What was the vibe with him?
08:45It wasn't bad.
08:46It was just to show that just don't break my daughter's heart, basically.
08:51But Mullins was the one left heartbroken.
08:55At a certain point, she's ready to move on, right?
08:59Is that fair?
09:00There was a kind of falling out between the both of us over a party that she went to, and that's kind of how we split our separate ways.
09:07Right.
09:07Now, breakups are always hard, but this one must have been pretty crushing for you.
09:14Yeah, it was a love point.
09:16In hindsight, can you see how much of your identity was at stake in that relationship?
09:23I definitely would.
09:24You kind of get a sense of lostness, and you kind of don't know what else to do.
09:27You later told police that you were, quote, a d*** to her in the aftermath of the breakup.
09:33Yeah, a little bit, yeah.
09:36What were you feeling?
09:37Frustration, hurt, anger, confusion, because why she couldn't tell me herself, and I had to find out from her friends.
09:46Stuff like that.
09:47Rage?
09:48There was a lot of anger, frustration going through my head, and I was really willing to hurt whoever did it.
09:53Five months before the murder, you sent Manuel Allen a Facebook message saying,
10:00she broke my heart, and I just can't take it.
10:03Is that how you felt, like you just couldn't bear it?
10:06Yeah, for a little while.
10:08No, at that time, I had turned to drugs, alcohol, anything to numb the pain.
10:14Mullins was spiraling and taking it out on Melanie and her family.
10:18You say you still loved her after the breakup.
10:22Did you really?
10:23I did, yeah.
10:25For months, Mullins tracked Melanie's social life online and tried to enlist her friends and family to somehow win her back,
10:34all the while seething about the breakup.
10:37By the summer, she started dating other people.
10:39By the way, so were you.
10:41Yeah.
10:42But I'm sure it was a bitter pill to swallow.
10:46Yeah?
10:47Is that fair?
10:47I'd say yes, but, I mean, it didn't really surprise me.
10:52I wasn't really, like, hurt by it because I kind of figured that that's really where her mind was in the first place.
10:58Here, Mullins begins to downplay the impact of losing Melanie and his fixation on her,
11:04maybe to deflect me away from malicious motives.
11:07So I dig in.
11:09It does seem like you have ill wills.
11:11Towards her.
11:12I mean, from some of your messages to friends, you called her terrible things.
11:19It might be, it might have to freshen my memory on it.
11:23She's a bitch.
11:24She's a sadistic bitch.
11:26I realize what a hoe she is.
11:28I'll slash her tires.
11:30She just needs to hop off my ****.
11:33Talking about her gets me **** heated.
11:36There's a possibility I could have said something like that because that's where my head was at the time.
11:40How would you describe that anger?
11:43Well, not going away anytime soon, like at that moment.
11:48Building?
11:49I wouldn't say it was building.
11:50It was just, it was there.
11:52It just, it wasn't, there was nowhere it was going to go.
11:55I'm now making my way to the heart of the crime.
11:59Mullins wants the murder to seem almost like an accident, a burglary gone wrong.
12:04But he can't make that case if he admits to obsessive rage.
12:08There's a reference in the record to Peter getting upset with your behavior in the aftermath of the breakup.
12:16So much so that he even changed the locks on the house.
12:20What was going on that would cause him so much concern?
12:25That, I'm not really sure because I didn't, like I didn't tell their parents, her parents, that we had broken up.
12:32I just stopped coming and I didn't come over anymore.
12:35You seem to be spiraling.
12:37Do you think that was the source of their concern?
12:41It turns out that Melanie's dad was right.
12:45Julius Mullins was a serious threat, not only to Melanie, but to the entire Allen family.
12:51All this leads up to July 7th, 2019, right?
12:57Julius, in as much detail as you can recall, tell me what happened that night.
13:11It's the summer of 2019 in Olney, Texas, and teenager Julius Mullins is mentally spiraling down after a breakup with his girlfriend, Melanie Allen.
13:23Things aren't going well for young Julius.
13:26You've been kicked out of your house.
13:29Your aunt asks you to leave for breaking curfew three times in a row.
13:34Now homeless, Mullins splits his time between a former classmate's apartment, the high school gym, and committing serious crimes.
13:44Around that time, the end of June, you commit a robbery, right, of a building owned by the father of one of the kids that you said hooked up with Melanie.
13:57Was that a bit of revenge?
13:59Honestly, no.
14:01At the time, I had nowhere to go, so my goal at the moment was to try to see if I could come up on some type of money so I could get my own place to stay.
14:12Just so I could get food, have a bed to sleep in, you know, stuff like that.
14:19And the reason why I did that was because I knew that they had weapons.
14:22After getting a taste for felony theft, Mullins sets his sights on the home of his ex-girlfriend, Melanie Allen, targeting her dad, Peter's extensive gun collection.
14:35All this leads up to July 7th, 2019.
14:39Had you, at that point, already decided to break into the Allen's home?
14:44Not at the moment.
14:46I mean, it was on my do list because I knew that they had weapons, too.
14:50It was on your to-do list?
14:51Yeah, it was on my to-do list, but it was...
14:54You have a to-do list of crimes?
14:59Julia said, tell me what happened that night.
15:022 a.m., you ride your bike to the Allen's home, right?
15:08Okay, so I took my bike around towards the garage window, and I walked in through the garage, through the bedroom.
15:18The Allen's had recently returned from a three-week trip to Europe, but were back home when Mullins entered.
15:25There were at least four people in the home and cars outside, so you knew they were in the home, right?
15:33Yeah, yeah.
15:34That didn't dissuade you?
15:36No, because they weren't really my focus.
15:39What do you mean?
15:40Like, I wasn't there for them.
15:42I was just there for the weapons.
15:43Right, but if you're breaking into a home, right, to rob them, according to you, right, wouldn't it matter whether people were home or not?
15:54It would, yeah.
15:55When I went in, the first thing I did was I checked all the rooms to see who all was there.
16:00Here, Mullins again reveals a calculating and criminal mind, recounting how he prowled inside the Allen's home before striking.
16:10You walked through the house and checked all the rooms?
16:12Yeah, I checked all the rooms.
16:13Y'all was there.
16:14That's how I knew her.
16:15All the brother was upstairs.
16:16Wow.
16:17Were you not worried about alerting someone while you were canvassing the house?
16:23Honestly, not really.
16:24I just, I've always been a sneaky individual.
16:30Melanie's brother was upstairs playing video games.
16:34Her father was asleep on the living room couch.
16:37And her mother, Mullins' mentor, Manduela, was sleeping in the master bedroom.
16:43You're armed?
16:44Uh, no.
16:47It wasn't until later on that I was armed.
16:49Really?
16:49You're going to break into a home that you know the, the, the homeowner is a gun owner and you're not armed.
16:58So you canvass the house and then you go back to the bedroom.
17:02Yeah.
17:03Why?
17:03Because now I know that's where they have, they have a safe, but I needed a key to get into it.
17:09So I figured their keys would be in the bedroom.
17:11So that's why I went back to the bedroom and I started looking around, but I had opened up the, uh, the nightstand and that's where I found the nine millimeter.
17:21And at that point, that's when I became armed, looked around in the closet, didn't really find anything.
17:29No keys?
17:30No.
17:31You startled her.
17:33She wakes up.
17:33I accidentally bumped something and then that's when she woke up and that's when I saw that there was a butterfly knife on the dresser.
17:41I kind of panicked.
17:43I kind of just went into kind of a dark spot, grabbed the knife.
17:48What do you mean by dark spot?
17:50Like, didn't really, it's kind of, I guess, fear.
17:56So this is kind of a moment of truth, right?
17:58She, she wakes up and now you have to decide, decide what you're going to do.
18:03Yeah, didn't, there wasn't really any time for thinking.
18:06I do remember that I grabbed the knife and then I, when she got up, I jumped on top of her and I started stabbing her.
18:13I do remember that.
18:14She's struggling?
18:16Yeah, a little bit, uh, pushing.
18:19Eventually at one point, we were both standing and, uh, I brought her to the ground.
18:24After that, that's when I started kind of coming to realizing what I had just done.
18:29Were you just in the red zone at that point?
18:34Kind of, uh, I was just acting at that moment.
18:38It was on impulse.
18:39I wasn't, there was no thought going into it.
18:41I just kind of did it.
18:46And then afterward, looked at my hands and saw all the blood and that was everywhere.
18:51Blood, blood everywhere?
18:52Yeah.
18:53You could smell it?
18:54Yeah.
18:55Yeah, you could smell it.
18:57See it on the carpet.
18:59You say you looked at your hands.
19:01In that moment, did you realize what you'd become?
19:06Yeah, at that moment, I knew that more than likely I was either going to die or that I was going to prison.
19:11Thirty-eight stab wounds, mostly to the head.
19:16Right.
19:17He said, uh, in the police's record, she was just panting at that point.
19:24Yeah, she, uh, it really sounded like she was fighting for breath.
19:28I was kind of in my own head, if I'm being real with you.
19:31What do you mean by that, Julie?
19:32Now I'm sitting here starting to think, so all the things that I had literally just done, now I'm processing through what I had just done.
19:38And what did you feel, if anything?
19:43I just, the things I was thinking of was how do I not let her family see what I had just done.
19:49Covering it up?
19:50Yeah, basically, yeah.
19:52And what's the plan now?
19:53You stripped the bedding.
19:55Yeah, basically I took all that off, wrapped her inside of it to make it a little bit easier so I could drag her and get rid of her so that when they woke up, they wouldn't have to see that.
20:08Get rid of her.
20:10Through the garage?
20:11Yeah.
20:12Yeah, I took her through the garage.
20:14By yourself?
20:15Yeah.
20:16By myself.
20:16I dragged her out towards the back.
20:18At this time, that's when I got the car, put it in neutral, pushed it around back by myself, had it in the alleyway, waiting, and then I took her the rest of the way, brought my bike back there too, put it in the trunk.
20:33You put her in the trunk?
20:35No, I put my bike in the trunk.
20:36Okay.
20:37And I brought her through the grass in the backyard and then lifted her and put her in the driver's side passenger seat.
20:46Was that difficult?
20:47It was.
20:48She was kind of heavy.
20:51But I did a lot of power lifting at school.
20:53Were you not afraid that somebody in the house would hear the commotion?
21:00I knew that nobody had stirred, really.
21:02No, nothing.
21:03Nobody knew anything.
21:04Okay.
21:05So now, Manuel is in the car.
21:09Bike's in the car.
21:11You got the car keys.
21:13What's the plan now?
21:14Now, my main plan is to just take them to the lake.
21:21Mullins drove out to a nearby lake and dumped her body in the brush.
21:25By then, it was almost 6 in the morning.
21:29You get on your bike and you flee the scene.
21:31Yeah.
21:32Where'd you go?
21:34After that, I went straight to the high school.
21:39The coach was letting me stay for a little while in the gym.
21:43So, I went in there and they had a shower and stuff in there and trash can, stuff like that.
21:49Got rid of my clothes.
21:50Uh-uh.
21:52Cleaned myself up.
21:54Did it occur to you, Julius, in the course of this,
21:58Oh, my God.
22:01I was a troubled teen and now I'm a teenage murderer.
22:07Yeah, it did.
22:08Once I started coming to after she was on the ground in the house,
22:13I, uh, like I said, I started processing all these things and I was, I didn't know what to do,
22:19what was going to happen next.
22:21And I started just, I guess, accepting my fate, accepting that I'm more than likely going to die in here.
22:28Still, Mullen's fate wasn't sealed.
22:32In fact, for several days after the murder, he avoided suspicion and even helped cast blame on the victim's own husband and son.
22:40I do not want to get arrested.
22:41The whole town is now in shock and fear, right?
22:46And rumors abound about Peter and Darian being responsible.
22:51You helped spread those rumors, right?
22:53Honestly, uh, I did tell the police, yeah.
22:59Well, one day after the murder, you messaged your mom on Facebook and told her you heard her son Darian killed her.
23:08You remember that?
23:09Yeah.
23:09So now you're deflecting, displacing the blame onto innocent people.
23:18Was that okay in your head at the time?
23:22Uh, no.
23:24I mean, I knew it was wrong, but yeah, I still did it.
23:28Soon, you reach out to Melanie and you offer her support, a shoulder to cry on.
23:35Is it possible that you calculated this whole thing, that if she suffered a catastrophe, like losing her mother,
23:43it could provide an opportunity to get Mel back in your life?
23:48Did you murder her mother to try and drive her back into your arms?
23:58All right, help right now, I'm done.
24:00Don't you have the blood on your hands?
24:02I feel guilty for that.
24:03You felt guilty because, frankly, you were guilty.
24:07Interview with a Killer.
24:08New episode next Saturday at 8 Eastern and Pacific.
24:11Only on Court TV.
24:14A former porn actor caught in a deadly father-son love triangle.
24:18I'm not going to stop fighting to prove my innocence.
24:21The Love Triangle Beheading Trial.
24:24Live coverage weekday mornings, 8, 7 Central.
24:26On Court TV.
24:27After brutally murdering Manuela Allen in the middle of the night, 18-year-old Julius Mullins blamed members of the victim's family for the vicious crime and then settled back into normal teenage life.
24:46Four days after the murder, you're posting on Snapchat, right?
24:52And you're mugging for the camera like you have not a care in the world.
24:56How do you account for that?
24:57I was doing drugs and anything to numb the pain most of the times.
25:03Like, even in a lot of those videos, I was more likely high.
25:07Meanwhile, one by one, the Allens are brought in and interrogated by police.
25:13You may think that we're looking at you on this deal, but a lot of the stuff, we get more information, is so we can put the whole picture together.
25:25Absolutely.
25:26All the traumatized Allens come under suspicion because they're in the house.
25:33And how could this happen by an intruder without anybody hearing it?
25:40I know the truth, and the truth is I didn't do it.
25:45Well, but you don't know the truth because you said you weren't awake when it happened.
25:50I did not want to lose my life.
25:52She was my soulmate.
25:54And still is.
25:57Well, it's chilling stuff.
25:58You know, they are clearly in fresh shock and grief.
26:04Did you figure that Peter would be in the cops' crosshairs?
26:08I did, yeah.
26:12Meanwhile, Mullins used the guise of consolation to shrewdly reconnect with his ex-girlfriend Melanie, the victim's daughter.
26:21Soon, you reach out to Melanie, and you offer her support, a shoulder to cry on.
26:29What state did you find her in?
26:31Well, when we agreed to meet, she, I could tell she didn't trust me.
26:37She had went to a public place, and we were in the car together, and she had a knife beside her.
26:44Melanie wasn't fooled.
26:46Within the first 48 hours of the murder, she armed herself with a weapon and went to meet Mullins.
26:52She was already suspicious of you.
26:54Yeah, I remember asking her what the knife was for, and she said, well, I think it's a good idea to carry it on me at all times.
27:02At one point, Melanie directly asked you if you killed her mother.
27:07I told her no.
27:08She texted me and was like, was it you?
27:14I told her, Melanie, I still love you.
27:17I would never do something like that to you.
27:20Why did Melanie suspect that you were responsible for murdering her mother?
27:25I'd say because at that time, I was getting myself involved with people who weren't really focused on caring about another person.
27:40Could it have something to do with the several months' worth of messages that you were saying to her, to her friends, to her mother?
27:48Profane threats?
27:51I guess so, yeah.
27:52I mean, her father was concerned enough to change the locks.
27:57It sounds like the Allens were afraid of you.
28:00Was Melanie afraid of you?
28:02Not that I know of, no.
28:05At least before.
28:06So now you've secretly taken her mother's life, and you heroically step in to console her.
28:14I still did care about her, like I said, but I still honestly did want to bring her some kind of consolation, if that makes sense.
28:26It doesn't make sense because you're the one that inflicted the harm.
28:31Yeah, I know.
28:31So you can't be the person to console her.
28:34I understand that now.
28:36Is it possible that you calculated this whole thing, that if she suffered a catastrophe, like losing her mother, it could provide an opportunity to get Mel back in your life?
28:48No.
28:49Well, I didn't plan on doing none of that.
28:51I didn't try to do that just so I can gain her attention or anything.
28:57Well, that's kind of what happened.
28:58It is.
28:59It is what happened.
29:00Yeah.
29:01Listen to this exchange with the Texas Ranger.
29:04She was sending me nasty texts and this and that, but then turned around and ate her just hanging out.
29:13So she's there.
29:13It's going to be a dollar.
29:15Oh, yeah.
29:16It's not too close to it.
29:18Yeah.
29:20But maybe I've gotten closer than it since then, right?
29:22At first it was ugly stuff, and then now it's...
29:25We're doing good.
29:29We're doing good.
29:32Did you murder her mother?
29:34To try and drive her back into your arms?
29:37No.
29:38You were actually gratified that the murder brought her back into your life, though, right?
29:46Yes, I was glad.
29:49I guess you could say that she was talking to me.
29:52Soon after meeting Mullins, Melanie tipped off police about her troubled ex.
29:58When police focused on him, a truer picture of the crime came into view.
30:02Video surveillance showed him riding his bike away from the lake where her body was found.
30:08A footprint next to the body matched Mullins' sock, and his DNA was found inside the Allens' home.
30:14After four hours of intense police questioning, Mullins cracked.
30:26Then, adding insult to injury for the Allen family, Mullins told police the victim's husband, Peter, was the mastermind behind the murder.
30:36How did Peter find you to get you involved?
30:45Even your confession is accompanied by the vicious lie that Peter Allen put you up to it.
30:56Even when you're telling the truth, you're lying.
30:58You've murdered one of Melanie's parents, and now you're trying to get the other one, right, to take the fall for that murder.
31:11Yeah, I didn't really, at that moment, realize that.
31:16That wasn't really crossing my mind.
31:17But is that evil, Julius, in your mind now?
31:22Yeah, I'd say that is sadistic.
31:26Despite all the evidence of rage, Mullins is sticking to his story that his only motive was theft.
31:32It sounds to me like Mullins is trying to soften the severity of his actions by claiming the murder was unplanned and unintended.
31:41But I don't buy it.
31:43Now, you claimed this was a robbery gone wrong, right?
31:48But that doesn't make sense to me.
31:51You knew Peter Allen had a huge gun collection, right?
31:54You also knew that he kept his guns in safes, in four safes, right?
32:00And you really had no way to get inside those safes.
32:04Why would anyone break into a house, unarmed, that is owned by a man with many, many guns, right, when he and his family are there?
32:20Also, Mel and her family had just been away in Germany for three weeks.
32:24If it was a robbery, wouldn't you do it when they were away?
32:29I mean, honestly, I didn't really ask those questions.
32:32You could have backed out of this whole caper when Manuela woke up, right?
32:39He would have had a lot of explaining to do, but it would have been better for all concerned than committing a murder to cover up a lesser crime.
32:51There has to be something else at play here, Julius.
32:56Do you accept that?
32:58I'd say no.
32:59I'd say it was just something that was upon impulse, like I said, and I thought that it would be a good idea to go and just get the weapons so I could sell them and make money.
33:12Mullins insists he was only looking for a quick payday, but this murder looks more like payback.
33:18It sounds more like an evil game of chess that you're playing with these people's lives.
33:24Yeah, sadly, I guess you could say that.
33:27Was this straight-up revenge?
33:39The vicious murder of Manuela Allen didn't seem like a burglary gone wrong, as this killer is claiming.
33:44It looked to me much more like a crime of wrath.
33:49The violence of the attack indicates that it was deeply personal.
33:5538 stab wounds, strangulation, and a gunshot.
34:00Was this a crime of passion to punish these people and make them suffer?
34:05No.
34:06Do you think you might have murdered Manuela to even the score for the heartache that you suffered?
34:16I'd say no.
34:17Really?
34:18Because that's what it sounds like when you read the record in its entirety.
34:24That wasn't, uh, that wasn't my thoughts.
34:28To me, Mullins seems emotionally flat-lined, a stone-faced wall of denial about his motives.
34:34But former Army interrogator Greg Hartley, an expert in nonverbal cues,
34:42co-host of the popular web series The Behavior Panel,
34:46sees a nervous man who's hiding something.
34:52What I'm trying to do is to figure out whether their mouth is saying what their mind is thinking.
34:57He screams emotion.
34:59You just got to be able to see it.
35:03Look at the finger.
35:04Here's a beautiful example.
35:06This guy is so braced.
35:07If he comes in, he's prepared.
35:09He's locked down.
35:10He has his feet braced under the chair, I guarantee you.
35:12He is feeling emotion about the interview, and he's trying to contain so he doesn't explode.
35:17But when he's pressed pretty hard, you see those two fingers move up against the phone.
35:21How are you?
35:22These are adapters.
35:23Adapters are ways we release nervous energy.
35:25Hartley flags two momentary breaks from Mullen's flat bass line that reveal a surprising emotion for a killer who says he's coming clean.
35:35Joy.
35:35She brought you home, right, to her family to meet them.
35:40And it sounds like the Allens embraced or at least tolerated you, right?
35:46Yeah.
35:47Yeah, you could say that.
35:48Which one is more accurate?
35:50Her mother embraced me.
35:51Her father was a little bit tougher, as all fathers are.
35:56If you want to know who this guy really is, the only time he is amused, the only time he's happy is around these bad boy comments.
36:04Look at it.
36:05Yeah.
36:06Yeah, you could say that.
36:08When I remind Mullen's how he used to trash his ex-girlfriend Melanie, Hartley says pleasure leaks out of his stony mug again.
36:16She's a bitch.
36:17She's a sadistic bitch.
36:22That's contained pleasure, is all it is.
36:24For Hartley, our interview reveals that Mullen's is feeling something, but it's not sympathy for his victims.
36:32Shame is always present.
36:35That is always present.
36:36I think about that a lot.
36:40Disappointment.
36:42It's showing emotion, but I don't think it's sorrow.
36:46Sorrow has a very distinct look.
36:48The center of your brow tips rise, and you show sorrow.
36:53There's no sorrow in his face.
36:54He doesn't feel it.
36:55He doesn't even try to pretend to feel their pain.
36:58I don't think he feels any remorse.
36:59I think he was angry about his relationship with the young woman.
37:03And in our interview, Mullins is about to prove Hartley's point.
37:08Julius, tell me the truth.
37:09Did you love Melanie, or did you hate her?
37:12Sunday nights on Court TV.
37:22Join us for a night of food, friends, and our favorite legal dramas.
37:26It's Order in the Court.
37:27And this week, we're binge-watching Bull Sundays on Court TV.
37:33All right, help party, I'm done.
37:34Don't you have the blood on your hands?
37:36I felt guilty for that.
37:38You felt guilty because, frankly, you were guilty.
37:41Interview with a Killer.
37:43New episode next Saturday at 8 Eastern and Pacific.
37:46Only on Court TV.
37:49In 2019, Julius Mullins was a broken-hearted teenager when he stabbed, strangled, and shot his ex-girlfriend's mother dead.
38:01He claims his only motive was robbery, but the crime looks a lot more like one of rage, and I'm calling him out on it.
38:10Was this straight-up revenge?
38:13To punish Melanie and Peter Allen, maybe, for breaking your heart by violently taking away the person closest to them?
38:20No.
38:21No.
38:22I felt like that the only revenge that I would be given was to break into their house and steal their weapons, and sleeping with her best friend like I did.
38:31You're saying that you slept with her best friend to get back at her.
38:36You robbed her house to get back at her.
38:39So doesn't that mean that revenge was the driving force behind your actions?
38:45Yes, I do admit that.
38:46But it wasn't planned to kill her mother.
38:50At that point, Julius, tell me the truth.
38:53Did you love Melanie, or did you hate her?
38:56I did love her, still.
38:58But once she was with those guys, it wasn't the same, you know?
39:02But your actions suggest hate.
39:05You've condemned her to a life of torment.
39:12She brought you into that family.
39:14Can you imagine what it's like for her, every day, to blame herself for bringing into the family the man that would viciously murder her mother?
39:30I can't.
39:32I'm struck by your flat affect.
39:36Almost like you're looking through me.
39:38Almost like a nine-mile stare.
39:40That's what the viewers are going to see.
39:44And of course, they're going to feel what I'm feeling, which is, this is a man who's not feeling the depth of the harm he's done.
39:56I can understand that.
39:57I don't understand how you can sit here for an hour, an hour and a half, so coldly, Julius.
40:10How can we understand that?
40:12To let emotion go is to be uncontrolled, which I'm not going to do.
40:20Now, I understand that the things that I have done in my past were screwed up, messed up, very dark and sadistic.
40:28But I've worked through those things, and they don't.
40:33It bothers me, yes.
40:34Bothers you?
40:36It's something that I have to live with.
40:39To live with his crimes, Mullins has turned to God and says he's now a practicing Christian.
40:45Are you familiar with the sin of wrath?
40:48Wrath, defined as an intense and uncontrolled anger, often accompanied by a desire for vengeance.
40:59Distinguished from ordinary anger by its lack of reason and balance,
41:06wrath can manifest as hatred, resentment, and a desire to inflict harm, violence, even bloodthirstiness.
41:15Wasn't this a crime of wrath, Julius?
41:21I would say, yeah.
41:23And your wrath sentenced Melanie to a living hell.
41:28Do you agree with that?
41:30I agree.
41:31You told our booking producer that you're no longer a killer
41:36and that you would terminate this interview if we called you that.
41:42Do you remember that?
41:43Yeah, I do.
41:43Here you are, responsible for the lifelong torment of an entire family,
41:50and you're quibbling over being labeled a killer?
41:55Isn't that selfish of you?
41:57I'd say it wasn't selfish, but I would say that it is not right
42:06to label by someone by what they were instead of what they are.
42:11Even if your God forgives you,
42:15you'll always and forever be a murderer, Julius.
42:19Right?
42:20Yep.
42:22Mullins never terminated the interview,
42:24but he did end it with more self-pity than sympathy for his victims.
42:29You have hope.
42:31I do.
42:32Even though you've deprive that family of it,
42:37you're better off than they are on that level, right?
42:42And on so many levels,
42:44you're fortunate compared to them.
42:46I'd say less.
42:50They have a lot more than I have.
42:52The only thing I have is
42:53something to look forward to,
42:56and they have something
42:58to think about
43:00because they lost it.
43:02You think you're
43:04less fortunate than they are?
43:08I do.
43:10Yes, I took their mother out of their lives,
43:12but
43:12they have the ability just like you,
43:15and
43:16they can do whatever they want to do.
43:19Wow.
43:20That is a remarkable lack of empathy, Julius.
43:26I think they have more
43:28opportunities
43:30and
43:33resources
43:34that are available
43:35to help them,
43:38to help them get through what I did,
43:40how I destroyed their family.
43:43Did you
43:43read the victim impact statements
43:46that were submitted to the court?
43:48I don't think I did.
43:51When Mullins was sentenced,
43:52Manuela Allen's husband and daughter
43:54shared their eternal grief with the court.
43:57Their heartbreaking words
43:58seemingly lost on this young man.
44:00I was a young killer,
44:01even now.
44:04Before my mother was murdered,
44:06I had a happy family.
44:08Now I have a shell of my former home,
44:11and our family has been destroyed.
44:15My life is a living nightmare,
44:17and I will never be able to escape.
44:19My life is a living nightmare,
44:24and I will never be able to escape.
44:25I don't even have to go now to my home.
44:26I'm a nelfee.
44:26I'm a north Atlanta family,
44:28and I will never be able to escape.
44:28I am incyclopedia.
44:30My life is a living nightmare,
44:34and I will never be able to rescue my own life.
44:36In the future,
44:37with joy,
44:38I'm overeat,
44:39and I will never be Voor teachers.
44:40I will never be able to escape.
44:42I amços of CHRIST,
44:43I will never be able to escape later.
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