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Interview with a Killer Season 3 Episode 3
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FunTranscript
00:00I looked at my hands and saw all the blood that was everywhere and blood everywhere yeah could
00:13smell it yeah yeah you could smell it see it on the carpet a grisly murder tears through the heart
00:21of a small town as a high school football star makes a deadly decision 38 stab wounds strangulation
00:29and the gunshot in that moment did you realize what you'd become I knew that more likely I was
00:38either gonna die or that I was going to prison today Julius Mullins is confronted like never
00:44before about the brutal murder of his ex-girlfriend's mother Manuela Allen police told you there was
00:51evidence of quote excessive rage at the crime scene they asked you if you were thinking of
00:57someone else at the time were you thinking of Melanie enraged by the police that she was off
01:04having sex with other boys no you're sure about that was it really a robbery turned bad as he
01:11has long claimed or was there something much darker at play hidden behind this young killer's vacant eyes
01:18it sounds like an evil game of chess that you're playing with these people's lives yeah sadly I
01:26guess you could say that was this straight-up revenge to punish Melanie for breaking your heart do you think
01:33you might have murdered Manuela to even the score for heartache that you suffered
02:03and the Stillman had murdered Hendon's імccw
02:18і і і і і і і і і і і і і і і і і і see you both at least��는 наUU
02:239-1-1, where's your emergency?
02:43Uh, I don't know how to describe it.
02:46Um, my wife is missing, and there's blood all over her bedroom.
02:51On July 7th, 2019, police were called to the home of Peter Allen.
02:58His wife, Manuela, a beloved teacher at the local high school, was missing.
03:02The killer left behind signs of a bloody struggle,
03:06and a trail of misdirection casting blame on the victim's own family.
03:10I know I'm the prime suspect. I know this.
03:14But what I want is I want you guys out there finding the a** if you actually didn't.
03:18As usual, suspicion first fell on the husband, Peter Allen,
03:25who said he'd fallen asleep on the sofa after drinking on the night of the murder.
03:30But the grim discovery of Manuela's body and evidence at a nearby lake unlocked the truth.
03:36We have some breaking news to share with you this afternoon.
03:3818-year-old Julius Mullins is charged in connection with the murder of the mother of four.
03:43The beloved teacher was murdered by a student she mentored and knew well, Julius Mullins.
03:50He was also the ex-boyfriend of the victim's daughter, Melanie.
03:54You love Melanie, didn't you?
03:56No, please.
03:59And that's not a reason to do this to her mother.
04:04Mullins pleaded guilty and was sentenced to 55 years in prison and will be up for parole in 2047.
04:11He claims he panicked and killed Manuela Allen when she caught him trying to rob the family's valuable gun collection.
04:18But because there wasn't a trial, questions remain about that fateful night and Mullins' true motives.
04:25Was it actually a burglary gone wrong or were there even darker forces at play?
04:30I headed to a prison two hours outside Dallas to find out.
04:37Okay, all right. I want to ask you today to help us understand the boy you were at 18.
04:48That 18-year-old boy who went off the rails, that's why we're here, Julius.
04:55Tell me, why did you want to talk to us today?
04:59I figured once your organization reached out that y'all have questions because everybody who has watched the other interviews that I've done,
05:09they said that it left them with nothing but more questions.
05:13Mullins has spoken to media organizations in the past, but it yielded only superficial answers.
05:19Why did you blame Peter?
05:22I have no comment.
05:23I wanted to probe beyond what was on the record and behind those vacant eyes.
05:30Before we get into the case, I want to go back.
05:32You come from what looks like a loving two-parent family.
05:38Yeah, it was.
05:39I watched a video of you at 14 at a birthday party.
05:44Happy birthday to you.
05:49You seem surrounded by love.
05:51You're smiling.
05:53Is that an accurate picture of your life at that point?
05:56Yeah, at certain times.
05:58There was certain days that were ups and downs, kind of like any other family.
06:03You struggled in school.
06:05You were left back at one point.
06:06Nothing especially unusual about that.
06:09You excelled on the football field.
06:11Yeah.
06:12That was something I really loved doing was sports, not just football.
06:16But Mullins says he gave up on football in school and gave in to juvenile delinquency.
06:23It seems that you strayed from that path.
06:25Why do you think that was?
06:27I started to get introduced to those things like drugs, running the street, stuff like that.
06:34And when I got more involved with those people, the things that I was doing, the things that I was doing right,
06:41it just didn't seem more appealing to me.
06:43In his sophomore year of high school, Mullins found love with a teenage girl who was everything he was not.
06:50Melanie Allen.
06:514.0 grade average, robotics, sports.
06:57I mean, she was really the whole package.
07:00And am I right that she was the class valedictorian in her year?
07:04Yeah.
07:05Yeah, she was.
07:06So, was this kind of like opposites attract?
07:10Yeah, I'd say that in the beginning it was kind of young love.
07:17When she agreed to be your girlfriend, how did that make you feel?
07:23I was elated.
07:25I was elated.
07:26I felt like I think any man would, like the highest guy in the world.
07:29Like there was nothing that you couldn't do, you know what I mean?
07:34She brought you home, right, to her family to meet them.
07:38And it sounds like the Allens embraced or at least tolerated you, right?
07:43Yeah.
07:44Yeah, you could say that.
07:45For the first time, Mullins breaks from his baseline flat affect and surprises me with an awkward grin.
07:53But I can't quite tell what's behind it.
07:56Her mother embraced me.
07:57Her father was a little bit tougher as all fathers are.
08:01Melanie's mother, Manuela, was a beloved teacher at Olney High School where both Julius and Melanie were students.
08:09Everybody says she was a saint.
08:12She was.
08:13She was the type that when she would walk in, like, you could, you would just feel happiness, you know?
08:17You wouldn't feel like, oh, this is another day, you know?
08:21Like, even when she's just walking through the halls, she just had a smile on her face
08:25and would always give an encouraging word to whoever was around her.
08:30And when you started dating her daughter, did she sort of try and help you?
08:37You went to her, you know, as a confidant for advice sometimes?
08:42Yeah, she would give me advice on certain things.
08:46And what about Melanie's father, Peter?
08:48What was the vibe with him?
08:50It wasn't bad.
08:51It was just to show that just don't, don't break my daughter's heart, basically.
08:56But Mullins was the one left heartbroken.
09:00At a certain point, she's ready to move on, right?
09:04Is that fair?
09:05There was a kind of falling out between the both of us over a party that she went to,
09:09and that's kind of how we split our separate ways, but...
09:11Mm-hmm, right.
09:12Now, breakups are always hard, but this one must have been pretty crushing for you.
09:19Yeah, it was a low point.
09:21In hindsight, can you see how much of your identity was at stake in that relationship?
09:26I definitely would.
09:28You kind of get a sense of lostness, and you kind of don't know what else to do.
09:32You later told police that you were, quote, a d*** to her in the aftermath of the breakup.
09:38Yeah, a little bit, yeah.
09:41What were you feeling?
09:42Frustration, hurt, anger, confusion, because why she couldn't tell me herself, and I had to find out from her friends, stuff like that.
09:52Rage?
09:53There was a lot of anger, frustration going through my head, and I was really willing to hurt whoever did it.
09:58Five months before the murder, you sent Manuela Allen a Facebook message saying,
10:05she broke my heart, and I just can't take it.
10:08Is that how you felt, like you just couldn't bear it?
10:11Yeah, for a little while.
10:13No, at that time, I had turned to drugs, alcohol, anything to numb the pain.
10:17Mullen's was spiraling, and taking it out on Melanie and her family.
10:24You say you still loved her after the breakup.
10:27Did you really?
10:28I did, yeah.
10:30For months, Mullen's tracked Melanie's social life online,
10:34and tried to enlist her friends and family to somehow win her back,
10:39all the while seething about the breakup.
10:42By the summer, she started dating other people.
10:44By the way, so were you.
10:46Yeah.
10:47But I'm sure it was a bitter pill to swallow.
10:51Yeah? Is that fair?
10:52I'd say yes, but, I mean, it didn't really surprise me.
10:57I wasn't really, like, hurt by it,
10:59because I kind of figured that that's really where her mind was in the first place.
11:03Here, Mullins begins to downplay the impact of losing Melanie and his fixation on her,
11:09maybe to deflect me away from malicious motives.
11:12So I dig in.
11:13It does seem like you have ill will towards her.
11:17I mean, from some of your messages to friends, you called her terrible things.
11:24There might be, you might have to freshen my memory on it.
11:27She's a bitch.
11:29She's a sadistic bitch.
11:31I realize what a hoe she is.
11:33I'll slash her tires.
11:35She just needs to hop off my ***.
11:38Talking about her gets me *** heated.
11:40There's a possibility I could have said something like that, because that's where my head was at the time.
11:45How would you describe that anger?
11:48Well, not going away anytime soon, like at that moment.
11:53Building?
11:54I wouldn't say it was building.
11:55It was just, it was there.
11:57It just, it wasn't, there was nowhere it was going to go.
12:01I'm now making my way to the heart of the crime.
12:04Mullins wants the murder to seem almost like an accident, a burglary gone wrong.
12:09But he can't make that case if he admits to obsessive rage.
12:12There's a reference in the record to Peter getting upset with your behavior in the aftermath of the breakup.
12:21So much so that he even changed the locks on the house.
12:25What was going on that would cause him so much concern?
12:30That, I'm not really sure, because I didn't, like, I didn't tell her parents, her parents, that we had broken up.
12:37I just stopped coming, and I didn't come over anymore.
12:40You seem to be spiraling.
12:42Do you think that was the source of their concern?
12:47It turns out that Melanie's dad was right.
12:50Julius Mullins was a serious threat, not only to Melanie, but to the entire Allen family.
12:56All this leads up to July 7th, 2019, right?
13:02Julius, in as much detail as you can recall.
13:05Tell me what happened that night.
13:12It's the summer of 2019 in Olney, Texas, and teenager Julius Mullins is mentally spiraling down after a breakup with his girlfriend, Melanie Allen.
13:27Things aren't going well for young Julius.
13:31You've been kicked out of your house.
13:34Your aunt asks you to leave for breaking curfew three times in a row.
13:40Now homeless, Mullins splits his time between a former classmate's apartment, the high school gym, and committing serious crimes.
13:48Around that time, the end of June, you commit a robbery of a building owned by the father of one of the kids that you said hooked up with Melanie.
14:01Was that a bit of revenge?
14:03Honestly, no.
14:06At the time, I had nowhere to go, so my goal at the moment was to try to see if I could come up on some type of money so I could get my own place to stay.
14:17Just so I could get food, have a bed to sleep in, you know, stuff like that.
14:23And the reason why I did that was because I knew that they had weapons.
14:27After getting a taste for felony theft, Mullins sets his sights on the home of his ex-girlfriend, Melanie Allen, targeting her dad, Peter's extensive gun collection.
14:40All this leads up to July 7th, 2019.
14:44Had you at that point already decided to break into the Allen's home?
14:49Not at the moment.
14:51I mean, it was on my do list because I knew that they had weapons too.
14:55It was on your to-do list?
14:56Yeah, it was on my to-do list, but it was...
14:59You have a to-do list of crimes?
15:04Julia said, tell me what happened that night.
15:072 a.m., you ride your bike to the Allen's home, right?
15:13Okay, so I took my bike around towards the garage window, and I walked in through the garage, through the bedroom.
15:23The Allen's had recently returned from a three-week trip to Europe, but were back home when Mullins entered.
15:30There were at least four people in the home, and cars outside, so you knew they were at the home, right?
15:38Yeah, yeah.
15:39That didn't dissuade you?
15:41No, because they weren't really my focus.
15:44What do you mean?
15:45Like, I wasn't there for them.
15:47I was just there for the weapons.
15:48Right, but if you're breaking into a home, right?
15:51To rob them, according to you, right, wouldn't it matter whether people were home or not?
15:59It would, yeah.
16:00When I went in, the first thing I did was I checked all the rooms to see who all was there.
16:05Here, Mullins again reveals a calculating and criminal mind, recounting how he prowled inside the Allen's home before striking.
16:15You walked through the house and checked all the rooms?
16:17Yeah, I checked all the rooms.
16:18Y'all was there.
16:19That's how I knew her.
16:19All the brothers were upstairs.
16:21Wow.
16:22Were you not worried about alerting someone while you were canvassing the house?
16:28Honestly, not really.
16:29I just, I've always been a sneaky individual.
16:35Melanie's brother was upstairs playing video games.
16:39Her father was asleep on the living room couch.
16:42And her mother, Mullins' mentor, Manuela, was sleeping in the master bedroom.
16:47You armed?
16:49Uh, no.
16:52It wasn't until later on that I was armed.
16:54Really?
16:54You're going to break into a home that you know the homeowner?
16:59He's a gun owner.
17:02And you're not armed?
17:03So you canvass the house.
17:05And then you go back to the bedroom.
17:07Yeah.
17:08Why?
17:08Because now I know that's where they have, they have a safe.
17:12But I needed a key to get into it.
17:14So I figured their keys would be in the bedroom.
17:17So that's why I went back to the bedroom and I started looking around.
17:20But I had opened up the, uh, the nightstand.
17:24And that's where I found the 9mm.
17:26And at that point, that's when I became armed.
17:28And I just looked around in the closet.
17:33Didn't really find anything.
17:34No keys to the scene.
17:36You startled her.
17:38She wakes up.
17:39I accidentally bumped something.
17:41And then that's when she woke up.
17:42And that's when I saw that there was a butterfly knife on the dresser.
17:46I kind of panicked.
17:48I kind of just went into kind of a dark spot.
17:52Grabbed the knife.
17:53What do you mean by dark spot?
17:55Like, didn't really.
17:59It's kind of, I guess, fear.
18:00So this is kind of a moment of truth, right?
18:03She, she wakes up.
18:05And now you have to decide, decide what you're going to do.
18:08Yeah.
18:08Didn't, there wasn't really any time for thinking.
18:11I do remember that I grabbed the knife.
18:13And then I, when she got up, I jumped on top of her.
18:17And I started stabbing her.
18:18I do remember that.
18:19She's struggling.
18:21Yeah.
18:22A little bit.
18:23Uh, pushing.
18:24Eventually, at one point, we were both standing.
18:27And, uh, I brought her to the ground.
18:29After that, that's when I started kind of coming to realizing what I had just done.
18:35Were you just in the red zone at that point?
18:39Kind of.
18:40Uh, I was just acting at that moment.
18:43It was on impulse.
18:44I wasn't, there was no thought going into it.
18:46And I just kind of did it.
18:51And then afterward, looked at my hands and saw all the blood that was everywhere.
18:56Blood, blood everywhere?
18:57Yeah.
18:58You could smell it?
18:59Yeah.
19:00Yeah, you could smell it.
19:02See it on the carpet.
19:03You say you looked at your hands.
19:06In that moment, did you realize what you'd become?
19:11Yeah, at that moment, I knew that more than likely I was either going to die or that I was going to prison.
19:1738 stab wounds, mostly to the head.
19:21Right.
19:23He said, uh, in the police record, she was just panting at that point.
19:29Yeah, she, uh, it really sounded like she was fighting for breath.
19:33I was kind of in my own head, if I'm being real with you.
19:35What do you mean by that, Julie?
19:37And now I'm sitting here starting to think, so all the things that I had literally just done, now I'm processing through what I had just done.
19:44And what did you feel, if anything?
19:48I just, the things I was thinking of was, how do I not let her family see what I had just done.
19:54Covering it up?
19:55Yeah, basically, yeah.
19:57And what's the plan now?
19:58You stripped the bedding.
19:59Yeah, basically, I took all that off, uh, wrapped her inside of it to make it a little bit easier so I could drag her and, uh, get rid of her so that when they woke up, they wouldn't have to see that.
20:13Get rid of her.
20:15Through the garage?
20:16Yeah, yeah, I took her through the garage, uh.
20:19By yourself?
20:20Yeah, by myself.
20:21I dragged her out towards the back, uh, at this time, that's when I got the car, put it in neutral, pushed it around back by myself, had it in the alleyway, waiting, and then I, uh, took her the rest of the way, brought my bike back there too, put it in the trunk.
20:38You put her in the trunk?
20:40No, I put my bike in the trunk.
20:41Okay.
20:42And I brought her through the grass in the backyard, and then, uh, lifted her and put her in the, uh, driver's side passenger seat.
20:51Was that difficult?
20:52It was.
20:53She was, uh, she was kind of heavy, but I did a lot of, uh, power lifting at school.
20:59Were you not afraid that somebody in the house would hear the commotion?
21:04I knew that nobody had stirred, really.
21:07No, nothing, nobody knew anything.
21:08Okay, so now, Manuel is in the car, bike's in the car, you got the car keys, what's the plan now?
21:20Now, my, uh, main, main plan is to just take him to the lake.
21:26Mullins drove out to a nearby lake and dumped her body in the brush.
21:30By then, it was almost six in the morning.
21:33You get on your bike and you flee the scene.
21:36Yeah.
21:37Where'd you go?
21:38Uh, after that, I went straight to the, uh, uh, high school.
21:44The coach was letting me stay for a little while in the, uh, gym.
21:48So, I went in there, and they had a shower and stuff in there, and trash cans, stuff like that.
21:54Got rid of my clothes.
21:55Uh-uh.
21:57Cleaned myself up.
21:59Did it occur to you, Julius, in the course of this?
22:02Oh, my God.
22:06I was a troubled teen, and now I'm a teenage murderer.
22:10Yeah, it did.
22:13Once I started coming to, after she was on the ground in the house, I, uh, like I said, I started processing all these things, and I was, I didn't know what to do, what was going to happen next.
22:26And I started just, I guess, accepting my fate, accepting that I'm more than likely going to die in here.
22:33Still, Mullen's fate wasn't sealed.
22:37In fact, for several days after the murder, he avoided suspicion and even helped cast blame on the victim's own husband and son.
22:45The whole town is now in shock and fear, right?
22:50And rumors abound about Peter and Darian being responsible.
22:56You helped spread those rumors, right?
22:59Honestly, uh, I did tell the police, yeah.
23:04Well, one day after the murder, you messaged your mom on Facebook and told her you heard her son Darian killed her.
23:13You remember that?
23:14Yeah.
23:14So now you're deflecting, displacing the blame onto innocent people.
23:23Was that okay in your head at the time?
23:26Uh, no.
23:29I mean, I knew it was wrong, but yeah, I still did it.
23:33Soon, you reach out to Melanie, and you offer her support, a shoulder to cry on.
23:41Is it possible that you calculated this whole thing?
23:44That if she suffered a catastrophe, like losing her mother, it could provide an opportunity to get Mel back in your life?
23:53Did you murder her mother to try and drive her back into your arms?
23:58All right, help, partner, I'm done.
24:05Don't you have the blood on your hands?
24:07I felt guilty for that.
24:09You felt guilty because, frankly, you were guilty.
24:12Interview with a killer.
24:13New episode next Saturday at 8 Eastern and Pacific.
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24:26The Love Triangle Beheading Trial.
24:28Live coverage weekday mornings, 8, 7 central on Court TV.
24:32After brutally murdering Manuela Allen in the middle of the night, 18-year-old Julius Mullins blamed members of the victim's family for the vicious crime and then settled back into normal teenage life.
24:51Four days after the murder, you're posting on Snapchat, right?
24:57And you're mugging for the camera like you have not a care in the world.
25:01How do you account for that?
25:02I was dealing drugs and anything to numb the pain most of the times.
25:08Like, even in a lot of those videos, I was more than likely high.
25:12Meanwhile, one by one, the Allens are brought in and interrogated by police.
25:20You may think that we're looking at you on this deal, but a lot of the stuff, we get more information, is so we can put the whole picture together.
25:31All the traumatized Allens come under suspicion because they're in the house.
25:37And how could this happen by an intruder without anybody hearing it?
25:46I know the truth, and the truth is I didn't do it.
25:50Well, but you don't know the truth because you said you weren't awake when it happened.
25:55I did not want to lose my life.
25:57She was my soulmate.
25:59And still is.
26:00Well, it's chilling stuff.
26:04You know, they are clearly in fresh shock and grief.
26:09Did you figure that Peter would be in the cop's crosshairs?
26:14I did, yeah.
26:17Meanwhile, Mullins used the guise of consolation to shrewdly reconnect with his ex-girlfriend Melanie, the victim's daughter.
26:24Soon, you reach out to Melanie, and you offer her support, a shoulder to cry on.
26:34What state did you find her in?
26:37Well, when we agreed to meet, I could tell she didn't trust me.
26:42She had went to a public place, and we were in the car together, and she had a knife beside her.
26:49Melanie wasn't fooled.
26:51Within the first 48 hours of the murder, she armed herself with a weapon and went to meet Mullins.
26:57She was already suspicious of you.
26:59Yeah.
27:00I remember asking her what the knife was for, and she said, well, I think it's a good idea to carry it on me at all times.
27:07At one point, Melanie directly asked you if you killed her mother.
27:12I told her no.
27:15She texted me and was like, was it you?
27:18I told her, Melanie, I still love you.
27:22I would never do something like that to you.
27:25Why did Melanie suspect that you were responsible for murdering her mother?
27:31I'd say because at that time, I was getting myself involved with people who weren't really focused on caring about another person.
27:44Could it have something to do with the several months' worth of messages that you were saying to her, to her friends, to her mother?
27:53Profane threats?
27:57I guess so, yeah.
27:59I mean, her father was concerned enough to change the locks.
28:02It sounds like the Allens were afraid of you.
28:05Was Melanie afraid of you?
28:07Not that I know of, no.
28:10At least before.
28:11So now you've secretly taken her mother's life, and you heroically step in to console her.
28:20I still did care about her, like I said, but I still honestly did want to bring her some kind of consolation, if that makes sense.
28:30It doesn't make sense, because you're the one that inflicted the harm.
28:36Yeah, I know.
28:37So you can't be the person to console her.
28:39I understand that now.
28:41Is it possible that you calculated this whole thing, that if she suffered a catastrophe, like losing her mother, it could provide an opportunity to get Mel back in your life?
28:53No.
28:54Well, I didn't plan on doing none of that.
28:56I didn't try to do that just so I can gain her attention or anything.
29:02Well, that's kind of what happened.
29:03It is.
29:04It is what happened.
29:05Yeah.
29:06Listen to this exchange with the Texas Ranger.
29:10She was sending me nasty texts and this and that, but then turned around and ate her just hanging out.
29:18So she asked, told us, will you go or move?
29:20Yeah.
29:21So I can post it.
29:23Yeah.
29:25I mean, I'm getting closer than it says then, right?
29:27At first it was ugly stuff and then now it's...
29:30We're doing good.
29:34We're doing good.
29:37Did you murder her mother to try and drive her back into your arms?
29:42No.
29:43You were actually gratified that the murder brought her back into your life though, right?
29:50Yes, I was glad.
29:54I guess you could say that she was talking to me.
29:56Soon after meeting Mullins, Melanie tipped off police about her troubled ex.
30:02When police focused on him, a truer picture of the crime came into view.
30:07Video surveillance showed him riding his bike away from the lake where her body was found.
30:12A footprint next to the body matched Mullins' sock.
30:15And his DNA was found inside the Allens' home.
30:22After four hours of intense police questioning, Mullins cracked.
30:27Then adding insult to injury for the Allen family, Mullins told police the victim's husband, Peter, was the mastermind behind the murder.
30:41Even your confession is accompanied by the vicious lie that Peter Allen put you up to it.
31:00Even when you're telling the truth, you're lying.
31:03You've murdered one of Melanie's parents.
31:07And now you're trying to get the other one, right, to take the fall for that murder.
31:17Yeah, I didn't really at that moment realize that.
31:21That wasn't really crossing my mind.
31:22But is that evil, Julius, in your mind now?
31:27Yeah, I'd say that is sadistic.
31:31Despite all the evidence of rage, Mullins is sticking to his story that his only motive was theft.
31:38It sounds to me like Mullins is trying to soften the severity of his actions by claiming the murder was unplanned and unintended.
31:46But I don't buy it.
31:47Now, you claimed this was a robbery gone wrong, right?
31:53But that doesn't make sense to me.
31:56You knew Peter Allen had a huge gun collection, right?
31:59You also knew that he kept his guns in safes, in four safes, right?
32:05And you really had no way to get inside those safes.
32:09Why would anyone break into a house unarmed that is owned by a man with many, many guns, right, when he and his family are there?
32:25Also, Mel and her family had just been away in Germany for three weeks.
32:29If it was a robbery, wouldn't you do it when they were away?
32:33I mean, honestly, I didn't really ask those questions.
32:38You could have backed out of this whole caper when Manuela woke up, right?
32:44He would have had a lot of explaining to do, but it would have been better for all concerned than committing a murder to cover up a lesser crime.
32:55There has to be something else at play here, Julius.
33:01Do you accept that?
33:03I'd say no.
33:04I'd say it was just something that was upon impulse.
33:07Like I said, I thought that it would be a good idea to go and just get the weapons so I could sell them and make money.
33:16Mullins insists he was only looking for a quick payday.
33:20But this murder looks more like payback.
33:22It sounds more like an evil game of chess that you're playing with these people's lives.
33:29Yeah, sadly, I guess you could say that.
33:32Was this straight up revenge?
33:44The vicious murder of Manuela Allen didn't seem like a burglary gone wrong, as this killer is claiming.
33:49It looked to me much more like a crime of wrath.
33:54The violence of the attack indicates that it was deeply personal.
34:0038 stab wounds, strangulation, and a gunshot.
34:05Was this a crime of passion to punish these people and make them suffer?
34:09No.
34:11Do you think you might have murdered Manuela to even the score for the heartache that you suffered?
34:21I'd say no.
34:22Really?
34:23Because that's what it sounds like when you read the record in its entirety.
34:28That wasn't, uh, that wasn't my thoughts.
34:32To me, Mullins seems emotionally flatlined, a stone-faced wall of denial about his motives.
34:41But former Army interrogator Greg Hartley, an expert in nonverbal cues, co-host of the popular web series The Behavior Panel, sees a nervous man who's hiding something.
34:53What I'm trying to do is to figure out whether their mouth is saying what their mind is thinking.
35:02He screams emotion.
35:04You just got to be able to see it.
35:08Look at the finger.
35:09Here's a beautiful example.
35:11This guy is so braced.
35:12If he comes in, he's prepared.
35:14He's locked down.
35:15He has his feet braced under the chair, I guarantee you.
35:17He is feeling emotion about the interview, and he's trying to contain so he doesn't explode.
35:22But when he's pressed pretty hard, you see those two fingers move up against the phone.
35:26How are you?
35:27These are adapters.
35:28Adapters are ways we release nervous energy.
35:31Hartley flags two momentary breaks from Mullins' flat baseline that reveal a surprising emotion for a killer who says he's coming clean.
35:40Joy.
35:40She brought you home, right, to her family to meet them, and it sounds like the Allens embraced or at least tolerated you, right?
35:51Yeah.
35:51Yeah, you could say that.
35:53Which one is more accurate?
35:55Her mother embraced me.
35:56Her father was a little bit tougher, as all fathers are.
36:03If you want to know who this guy really is, the only time he is amused, the only time he's happy is around these bad boy comments.
36:09Look at it.
36:10Yeah.
36:11Yeah, you could say that.
36:13When I remind Mullins how he used to trash his ex-girlfriend Melanie, Hartley says pleasure leaks out of his stony mug again.
36:21She's a bitch.
36:22She's a sadistic bitch.
36:26That's contained pleasure, is all it is.
36:30For Hartley, our interview reveals that Mullins is feeling something, but it's not sympathy for his victims.
36:37Shame is always present.
36:38That is always present.
36:41I think about that a lot.
36:45Disappointment.
36:47He's showing emotion, but I don't think it's sorrow.
36:51Sorrow has a very distinct look.
36:53The center of your brow tips rise, and you show sorrow.
36:58There's no sorrow in his face.
36:59He doesn't feel it.
37:00He doesn't even try to pretend to feel their pain.
37:03I don't think he feels any remorse.
37:04I think he was angry about his relationship with the young woman.
37:07And in our interview, Mullins is about to prove Hartley's point.
37:13Julius, tell me the truth.
37:14Did you love Melanie, or did you hate her?
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37:37All right, no party, I'm done.
37:39Don't you have the blood on your hands?
37:41I feel guilty for that.
37:43You felt guilty because, frankly, you were guilty.
37:46Interview with a Killer.
37:48New episode next Saturday at 8 Eastern and Pacific.
37:51Only on Court TV.
37:55In 2019, Julius Mullins was a broken-hearted teenager
38:01when he stabbed, strangled, and shot his ex-girlfriend's mother dead.
38:06He claims his only motive was robbery,
38:09but the crime looks a lot more like one of rage,
38:12and I'm calling him out on it.
38:15Was this straight-up revenge?
38:17To punish Melanie and Peter Allen, maybe,
38:21for breaking your heart by violently taking away the person closest to them?
38:26No.
38:27I felt like that the only revenge that I would be given
38:31was to break into their house and steal their weapons.
38:33And sleeping with her best friend like I did.
38:36You're saying that you slept with her best friend to get back at her.
38:41You robbed her house to get back at her.
38:44So doesn't that mean that revenge was the driving force behind your actions?
38:50Yes, I do admit that.
38:52But it wasn't planned to kill her mother.
38:55At that point, Julius, tell me the truth.
38:58Did you love Melanie, or did you hate her?
39:01I did love her, still.
39:03But once she was with those guys, it wasn't the same, you know?
39:07But your actions suggest hate.
39:10You've condemned her to a life of torment.
39:16She brought you into that family.
39:20Can you imagine what it's like for her every day to blame herself
39:26for bringing into the family the man that would viciously murder her mother?
39:35I can't.
39:36I'm struck by your flat affect.
39:41Almost like you're looking through me.
39:43Almost like a nine-mile stare.
39:46That's what the viewers are going to see.
39:49And of course, they're going to feel what I'm feeling,
39:52which is this is a man who's not feeling the depth of the harm he's done.
40:00I don't understand how you can sit here for an hour, an hour and a half so coldly, Julius.
40:15How can we understand that?
40:18To let emotion go is to be uncontrolled.
40:23At least I'm not going to do.
40:24Now I understand that the things that I have done in my past were screwed up, messed up, very dark and sadistic.
40:33But I've worked through those things, and they don't.
40:38It bothers me, yes.
40:39Bothers you?
40:41It's something that I have to live with.
40:44To live with his crimes, Mullins has turned to God and says he's now a practicing Christian.
40:50Are you familiar with the sin of wrath?
40:55Defined as an intense and uncontrolled anger, often accompanied by a desire for vengeance.
41:04Distinguished from ordinary anger by its lack of reason and balance,
41:11wrath can manifest as hatred, resentment, and a desire to inflict harm, violence, even bloodthirstiness.
41:20And your wrath sentenced Melanie to a living hell.
41:33Do you agree with that?
41:35I agree.
41:35You told our booking producer that you're no longer a killer, and that you would terminate this interview if we called you that.
41:47Do you remember that?
41:48Yeah, I do.
41:48Here you are, responsible for the lifelong torment of an entire family, and you're quibbling over being labeled a killer?
41:58Isn't that selfish of you?
42:02I'd say it wasn't selfish, but I would say that it is not right to label by someone by what they were instead of what they are.
42:15Even if your God forgives you, you'll always and forever be a murderer, Julius.
42:24Right?
42:25Yep.
42:26Mullen's never terminated the interview, but he did end it with more self-pity than sympathy for his victims.
42:35You have hope?
42:36I do.
42:38Even though you've deprived that family of it, you're better off than they are on that level, right?
42:47And on so many levels, you're fortunate compared to them.
42:51I'd say less.
42:55They have a lot more than I have.
42:57The only thing I have is something to look forward to, and they have something to think about because they lost it.
43:08You think you're less fortunate than they are?
43:13I do.
43:14Yes, I took their mother out of their lives, but they have the ability just like you, and they can do whatever they want to do.
43:24Wow.
43:25That is a remarkable lack of empathy, Julius.
43:28I think they have more opportunities and resources that are available to help them, to help them get through what I did, how I destroyed their family.
43:48Did you read the victim impact statements that were submitted to the court?
43:53I don't think I did.
43:54When Mullins was sentenced, Manuela Allen's husband and daughter shared their eternal grief with the court.
44:02Their heartbreaking words seemingly lost on this young killer, even now.
44:09Before my mother was murdered, I had a happy family.
44:13Now I have a shell of my former home, and our family has been destroyed.
44:19My life is a living nightmare, and I will never be able to escape.
44:24My life is a living nightmare, and I will never be able to escape.
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