Interview with a Killer Season 3 Episode 2

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Transcript

00:00Now your ass is mine, and I'm guaranteeing you, I'm gonna f***ing murder you.

00:12I'm letting you know that I know.

00:14Because you know what?

00:15Josh might have played me, but bitch, I'm gonna play your ass out too.

00:18Watch.

00:19The case played out like a real-life version of Mean Girls.

00:23She is a ugly slut.

00:28You're a f***ing fat bitch, and I'm going to f***ing kill you, I swear on my life.

00:33How do you account for that?

00:35I don't.

00:36I was basically obsessed with the chase of it all.

00:39Only this time, the rivalry and jealousy ended not in high school drama, but in murder.

00:45I said it because I was upset, and truthfully, I wanted to scare.

00:48I'm an assurant psycho.

00:49I never had the intent on actually harming.

00:51And I'm guaranteeing you, I'm gonna f***ing murder you.

00:54Maybe that's something that, you know, one could dismiss as angry teenage banter, but

01:00not after you actually kill her.

01:03The next piece of information that you need to know is that she is dead.

01:09Oh my God.

01:11All this over Josh.

01:13I had a one-track mind.

01:15Boys.

01:15Yes.

01:16A boy.

01:17And at that point, I was just feuding with Sarah.

01:19Two teenage girls fighting over one boy lead to one bleeding out on a suburban street in Florida.

01:25You're on Pinellas Park.

01:26Okay, what happened?

01:28F*** Rachel!

01:30Just f*** out her.

01:31And the other, Rachel Wade, convicted of murder.

01:35Rachel deserves a life sentence, Your Honor.

01:37For 16 years, she's always maintained it was self-defense, not murder.

01:42Despite evidence to the contrary.

01:44There was two sides to it, and, I mean, I didn't go after her.

01:48I did, but I could do a point of it.

01:50A self-defense means you have no choice, right?

01:53But you had plenty.

01:55I mean, you're right.

01:56What did you do before you left your apartment?

02:00I grabbed a knife.

02:01It's not self-defense if you're out in the streets with a weapon.

02:05Now, would she finally come clean?

02:08Do you accept that you murdered Sarah?

02:10Sarah?

02:14Do you accept that you murdered Sarah?

02:44I'm back in Florida.

03:13A place where I've sat across from a son who murdered his parents.

03:16A husband who killed his wife.

03:19A serial killer who hunted hikers.

03:21This time to confront a young woman whose crime was driven by the dark intensity of teenage romance.

03:28911, what's your emergency?

03:30In the early morning of April 15, 2009, a 911 call came in.

03:35On the other end, a panicked voice struggling to explain what happened.

03:39You're in Pinellas Park.

03:40Okay, what happened?

03:41Oh, Rachel!

03:42Just f***ed out her.

03:45Okay, where's the body of the patient stabbed?

03:47I swear to God, this is...

03:49Someone has got to come.

03:51This girl on the ground.

03:52Okay, passed out.

03:53I don't know.

03:54She's alive.

03:54I don't know.

03:55You said she's passed out now?

03:56I don't know.

03:57Oh, she's just, she's, like, coming and going.

03:59Stay with us.

04:00Yeah.

04:02A simmering feud between two teenage girls over a boy finally exploded when 19-year-old Rachel

04:08Rachel Wade stabbed 18-year-old Sarah Ludman twice, the second blow piercing her heart.

04:14As emotions flared, Rachel's arms remained crossed.

04:17She's accused of stabbing Pinellas Park student Sarah Ludman to death.

04:21Both girls were engaged in a vicious internet battle over another teenager.

04:25Rachel Wade stuck to her story that she stabbed Sarah Ludman in self-defense.

04:31Despite her conviction for murder a decade and a half ago, Rachel Wade has always claimed

04:35she stabbed Sarah Ludman in self-defense.

04:38I acted in self-defense because I got attacked.

04:40She grabbed me by my hair and I'm flailing my arms.

04:44A claim she bolstered over the years in legal appeals.

04:49Deep in the swampland of Central Florida at Lowell Correctional Institution, Wade, now 35,

04:55says she's ready to open up about the crime.

04:58And I wonder if she'll finally take responsibility for murder.

05:02It's been, what, 16 years?

05:04Yes, sir.

05:04Since that fateful night, no doubt you're older and wiser now.

05:09Yes.

05:10We wanted to talk to you today to really to try and understand the mindset and motivations

05:16behind your actions in this case.

05:19Why did you want to talk to us?

05:21Honestly, because there's a lot of young girls out there that I think have been through similar

05:24situations, and luckily they may not have escalated to that, and I want to help prevent that.

05:28I want you to help me understand that teenage Rachel that got you in all this trouble.

05:36Help me get inside her head, okay?

05:40From the record, it sounds like life started off just fine for you, right?

05:44You had two hard-working, loving parents.

05:47Yes.

05:47Very supportive.

05:48Yes.

05:49Always have been.

05:51Mm-hmm.

05:51And it showed.

05:53In grade school, at least, you were regarded as a very bright, promising girl.

05:59Yes.

06:00The only criticism that I saw from your teachers in the record is that you were overly social.

06:06I was extremely social, yes.

06:07But in high school, Rachel's behavior started to go seriously sideways.

06:13Now, teenage rebellion is common, but you really, based on the record, seem to have

06:19taken it to an extreme.

06:21Yes.

06:22Right?

06:22Is that fair?

06:23Yes.

06:23My parents were very overbearing to me, which now I see they were looking out for my best

06:27interests, and I just went the opposite direction in every way I could.

06:32And you were just defiant.

06:34Yes.

06:35Right?

06:35Do you know how many times your parents called the police?

06:39No, I was a runaway countless times.

06:41I know that they were very concerned, so any time I left the house without permission, they

06:44called, so I would say probably 30 or more.

06:4730 or more times.

06:48Yes.

06:48You became a serial runaway.

06:50Yes.

06:51Once I met a boy that was older, and I just took a different direction.

06:54I didn't care about schoolwork anymore.

06:56I used to be very proud or wanted to make my parents proud.

07:00All that kind of went out the window, and I had a one-track mind.

07:04Boys.

07:04Yes.

07:05A boy.

07:06At 16, she started dating a 19-year-old young man.

07:10Her parents caught her having sex with him and called the police.

07:13He was arrested because you were underage.

07:16Yes.

07:16Right?

07:17And you still insisted on continuing to see him.

07:20Yes.

07:21Looking back, how do you understand that behavior?

07:24I don't, because I really don't understand why I felt the need to be in that relationship.

07:30Yeah.

07:30Because it didn't do me any good.

07:34After all, Rachel was a knockout.

07:36According to her friends, all the boys were after her.

07:39So why does she seem to always get stuck on the wrong guys?

07:42Yes.

07:43Your dad used the term fatal attraction.

07:46Yes.

07:47To characterize your early obsessive romances.

07:51Yes.

07:51Do you think that's fair characterization?

07:53Yes.

07:53Looking back, I do.

07:54Hmm.

07:54This whole turn away from your parents and their rules put you at risk, right?

08:01Yes.

08:02You're staying out all night, sleeping in cars or on couches, sometimes with people that

08:09you didn't or couldn't even recall their names.

08:12Yes.

08:13What was going on there?

08:14I think I just wanted to stay away.

08:16Once I got caught being with the older guy, my mother called the cops and that was just

08:22the end of it for me.

08:23I didn't want to talk to them about anything.

08:25I didn't think that they really understood.

08:27Your folks took you to counseling?

08:29Yes.

08:30Right.

08:31Were you diagnosed?

08:32I believe they said that I was bipolar and manically depressed.

08:36Were you treated for those conditions?

08:38I was put on medication and I probably stopped very shortly after I didn't stick with it.

08:43Is it possible, Rachel, that your mental health conditions, bipolar disorder, depression,

08:50put you in a state of mind where you couldn't act on obvious red flags?

08:58Maybe, yeah.

08:59Soon you left school.

09:01Yes.

09:02You said you lost interest after the boy you liked got kicked out.

09:07Did your parents protest that decision?

09:10They did.

09:10They were very upset.

09:11A high school dropout.

09:13She was now living on her own and working at Applebee's and, of course, dating.

09:18And then there's a pattern emerges of these passionate but volatile relationships.

09:24None more so than the small man with the big ego, Josh Camacho.

09:32Emphasis on the macho.

09:33Yes.

09:34Spring 2008.

09:36Now, you've known him since childhood.

09:38But do you remember the moment that you reconnected as adults and fell for him?

09:42Yes.

09:43You take me back to that?

09:44If I'm being honest, when he first started trying to pursue me, I kind of laughed at it.

09:50I had no interest.

09:51I don't really know what sparked it one night.

09:53He kissed me and I just kind of went for it.

09:56Do you think you became obsessed with him?

09:58Um, I think I became obsessed with the situation.

10:02The situation was a love triangle.

10:04Josh Camacho had another girlfriend, Sarah Ludeman.

10:08Really was just kind of oblivious in the beginning.

10:11I didn't believe he was cheating.

10:13And then when I started seeing the truth, I think I spiraled.

10:15I told you to watch your ass and not to go with him.

10:18Now your ass is mine.

10:19The chase between the two lovesick teens had just begun and would soon turn deadly.

10:25Chief, sir, what's going on?

10:26There's a seven.

10:27There's a fight and there's a seven.

10:28Someone was stabbed?

10:30Yes.

10:30She's on the floor.

10:31Who stabbed her?

10:32It was spring of 2008.

10:5019-year-old Rachel Wade was on the rebound from one bad relationship and about to start another

10:56with a teenager she'd known since childhood.

10:59I want to get over the last guy, the older guy that I was with.

11:02So I just decided to go for it.

11:04And I've known Josh my whole life.

11:05So I think I thought it was a safe space.

11:08Josh Camacho was slight of build and stood only five foot five inches tall.

11:12But he was every inch a player for sure.

11:15And you were all in.

11:18Yes.

11:18You posted, you were in love and quote, he's all mine.

11:22Yes.

11:22You were planting the flag on him.

11:25And of course, you weren't alone in this powerful attachment to Josh Camacho.

11:30Rachel knew that Josh at his young age already had a child with a girl named Erin.

11:36But after just a few months of dating, Rachel was scrolling on the social media platform MySpace

11:41and noticed a photo of Camacho with another girl at the beach, Sarah Ludeman.

11:47That set you off?

11:49Yes.

11:51That was when I think I found out or I realized that he was really seeing somebody else.

11:55And then when I started seeing the truth, I think I spiraled.

11:5817-year-old Sarah Ludeman, a junior in high school, was driven.

12:03She attended a specialized school and hoped to be a veterinarian.

12:08But all that changed one summer day when Josh Camacho emerged from the back of the local Chick-fil-A

12:13where he worked, walked past Ludeman, and winked.

12:17That was it.

12:18She was smitten.

12:19Soon Josh would be dating both Sarah and Rachel.

12:22When you started seeing the truth, was your anger directed at him or at Sarah?

12:30It was directed at both.

12:32It didn't go very well for me when it was directed at him.

12:35It usually turned into a pretty bad fight.

12:37Physical?

12:38Sometimes.

12:39A lot of mental and emotional.

12:41And he would normally leave and then I would usually go the other route.

12:46What do you mean?

12:47I would argue with Sarah.

12:48So the feud with Sarah starts on social media, right?

12:53I don't know.

12:53It was just a constant rival.

12:55It consumed me to the point where I was tired of being harassed.

12:57But you were harassing just as much.

13:00I was, yes.

13:01You're both doing your best to scare and humiliate each other.

13:04Yes.

13:05Right?

13:05And to secure your positions with Josh.

13:08Yes.

13:09I have to say, some of your messages to her seem really unhinged.

13:13Yes.

13:14Don't you have to be, Sarah, seriously.

13:16Answer your phone.

13:17Don't be.

13:18You want to come through my neighborhood and be a psycho bitch.

13:21Just like Aaron.

13:22With Josh's car, you're with me when you with his shit, seriously.

13:26I'm letting you know now, you're either going to get up or something of yours.

13:29So watch the out or answer your phone.

13:32Stop being a bitch.

13:34End of message.

13:36How do you explain that?

13:37There was plenty of times that she came to my job harassing me.

13:40And I had to ask my manager to dismiss her because I was going to get in trouble.

13:45They made me spill beers on customers.

13:47They followed me home from work and rear-ended my roommate at the time's car.

13:52So all of that leading up, I think that my threats to her, I did intend to scare her, along with my, you know, my rage or fit of rage at the moment.

14:02In what will later become key evidence in the trial, Wade calls Luterman again and issues a death threat.

14:09Please tell me, Sarah, why you would be a dumb enough fuck to put a brand new picture of you and Josh at the beach on your mind space.

14:19Seriously, I told you to watch your back and not go with him.

14:23Now your ass is mine and I'm guaranteeing you I'm going to murder you.

14:27I'm letting you know that now because you know what?

14:29Josh might have played me, but bitch, I'm going to play your ass out too.

14:31Watch.

14:32You're a f***ing fat bitch and I'm going to f***ing kill you.

14:34I swear all my life.

14:36Body shaming, threats of violence, even death.

14:40How do you account for that?

14:41So I think I really just wanted to scare them.

14:45I wanted them to think that I would do something, which I never really had the intent to do.

14:49And then they would just stop.

14:52The horse race for Josh's affections went on for months and Josh seemed to enjoy it.

14:57One week he's with Rachel, the next Sarah.

15:00The two girls jockeying for position and taunting each other.

15:04March 2009, she's posting pictures of her with Josh in New York, so she's winning.

15:11You have to see these images pop up unless they've driven you crazy.

15:15Yeah.

15:15It was upsetting because I believed him when he said that he wasn't seeing her, of course.

15:20And then I would post and do the same exact thing in return.

15:25By April, the tide of Josh seems to turn against Sarah.

15:31He's now ignoring her again at school.

15:34His treatment of hers sounds abhorrent.

15:37I didn't know he was mistreating her at the moment.

15:39I thought that they were together.

15:40And I think, to be honest, that I had started seeing somebody else or hanging out with other people.

15:48So even though you were hanging out with other people, pursuing other love interests, you still couldn't detach from the Josh-Sarah dynamic?

15:58I think she was still making phone calls or, you know, doing things in assumption that we were still together.

16:03And I think that I still fed it, yes.

16:04April 13th, you post on MySpace, loving my boo.

16:11I'm sure at the time you knew that she was going to see it and be upset, right?

16:14I love her.

16:15And no doubt she was.

16:17All this leads to April 14th, 2009, right?

16:23Josh makes plans with you.

16:25Was that just out of the blue?

16:27He called me and asked to stay the night at my house.

16:30I ended up asking him if he loved me.

16:32And he said, I don't know.

16:34I said, do you love her?

16:35He said, I don't know.

16:366.36 p.m., Sarah texts Josh complaining about his treatment of her.

16:43Josh acquiesces and invites Sarah over to his sister's house to hang out.

16:48Thrilled, Sarah updates her MySpace page with a post.

16:528.30 p.m., she borrows her folks' minivan and heads over to be with Josh at his sister's house.

16:59But first, she drives by your apartment and she yells, according to one of her friends, stay away from my man.

17:06I didn't know what she called out.

17:08I know that there was a lot of screaming outside of my apartment that night.

17:11You didn't take the switcheroo very well.

17:15I can understand that.

17:16I mean, you must have been livid.

17:19Can you admit that?

17:20I remember I was very upset when I drove through, yes.

17:22Over the course of that night, Rachel would go from upset to red-hot mad with deadly consequences.

17:30Tell me, Rachel, tell me what happened that night.

17:41Did you murder her mother to try and drive her back into your arms?

17:46Oh, my God.

17:47Interview with a killer.

17:51New episode next Saturday at 8 Eastern and Pacific.

17:53Only on Court TV.

17:56Six-year-old shot his teacher.

17:58Their pride battling that it is part of the job.

18:02Just outrageous.

18:03The first grader shoots teacher civil trial.

18:06Live coverage weekday mornings, 8, 7 Central.

18:08On Court TV.

18:09It was April 14, 2009.

18:18The night sky was clear with a calm breeze.

18:22Weather be lying the violence about to unfold.

18:25Sarah Ludman, Rachel Wade claims, had cruised by Rachel's apartment in her parents' minivan,

18:31screaming threats to stay away from Josh Camacho.

18:34The man, if you can call him that, the teenage girls were fighting over.

18:39For support, Rachel called yet another boy she'd been dating, Javier Laboy.

18:43I called him and asked if I could go to his house because it was somewhere that I thought nobody would know where it was.

18:50You went there seeking shelter?

18:52I went there to wait for my friend because she was with her boyfriend, yes.

18:56Right.

18:56Now, you've said that you were so afraid at that point, right?

19:03Yes.

19:03They had told me they had intentions on jumping me and there was numerous people with them, so yes, I was.

19:08Afraid for your life?

19:09I guess you could say so.

19:11Before you leave your house, you grab a kitchen knife.

19:14Yes.

19:15Why?

19:16I thought it would scare them because I knew that there was going to be numerous people with them.

19:19I knew it wouldn't just be Sarah by herself.

19:21So were you more afraid or more angry?

19:25I think it was both.

19:26It strikes me that Wade wants to have it both ways in this interview.

19:30Sure, she admits to the killing, but she's still also heavily hinting at being afraid for her life, a pretext for justifiable lethal force.

19:39And her memory is about to get wobbly, too.

19:42You end up at Javier's house.

19:45You told police you went there seeking safety, like safe harbor from these threats.

19:49Yes.

19:49Is that true?

19:50I did.

19:52And at the point you get there, are you more scared or more angry?

19:57Um, I think I'm both.

19:58I don't know.

19:59I think the scared fueled the anger and vice versa.

20:02A witness that was there with you and Javier later said that you were in a rage when you showed up.

20:09Because rage suggests much more anger than fear.

20:13Fury, even.

20:15Can you admit to that?

20:16I admit to ranting about the circumstances of the night.

20:21Rage also suggests that you're not quite in your right mind.

20:27Yes.

20:28Is that fair?

20:29Yes.

20:29Enraged, Rachel wanted to confirm her suspicions that Sarah was with Josh that night.

20:36So she left and drove to Josh's sister's house and spotted them together.

20:41Josh saw her, too, and added insult to injury.

20:44He texts you.

20:45He says, go home.

20:47I don't like you no more.

20:49I do remember him saying go home.

20:51I don't remember all of it.

20:52Rachel drove back to Javier Laboy's house red hot mad.

20:56A friend of Laboy's, Dustin Grimes, was there as well.

20:59And he hears you say, when you get back from confirming your suspicions, that Josh is with Sarah, after canceling on you, I'm going to kill that f***ing bitch.

21:11I don't recall saying that at all.

21:15I had said that previous on a voicemail.

21:17I did not say that at that moment.

21:19And the reason that I left the house was...

21:20Why would Dustin lie about that?

21:21I don't know.

21:23To be honest...

21:23Is it possible that you were in some kind of red zone and you can't remember exactly what you said?

21:28No.

21:28The only thing...

21:29It's very specific and it seems unlikely that he would make that up out of blue.

21:34The only thing that I can say is he had a girlfriend that did not get along with me and was also friends with some of the girls that harassed me.

21:42Well, can you see how damning that evidence is?

21:46Yes.

21:4712.33 a.m.

21:50Sarah calls you, right?

21:52She's in the car on speakerphone.

21:53Two witnesses in the van say they heard you threatened to, quote, stab her and her Mexican boyfriend.

22:04No.

22:04I didn't say that.

22:05You deny that?

22:06Yes.

22:06I did not say that.

22:07So, now three people have heard you make death threats, deadly threats, within the span of a short period of time.

22:17And you're denying all of that?

22:20I did not say that at all.

22:21I don't want to get bogged down arguing with you, but a lot of what you're saying contradicts what you said back then and certainly contradicts the evidence in the record.

22:32Do you realize that?

22:33I mean, I'm not going to admit to saying something I don't remember because I've never admitted to saying any of that that night.

22:39Okay.

22:39Well, you say you're here to try and help all the little girls out there that might go down this dark path.

22:46And I am.

22:47You are?

22:47Yes.

22:48Well, not if you're lying to me.

22:49But I'm not lying to you.

22:50That night, I do not recall making any threats of any kind like that.

22:55Sarah had called it a night and was about to drive home when she happens upon a friend who gave her what will be fateful intel.

23:02Rachel Wade was just blocks away in front of Javier Laboia's house, hanging out by her red car.

23:09Sarah and two friends sped off to confront her, unaware that Wade was armed with a knife.

23:15You were ready to fight her.

23:17You were not trying to avoid the fight.

23:19You're out there in the streets with a knife, almost like you're laying in wait for the fight.

23:24It sure seems that way.

23:27I don't recall.

23:29If I would have intended on really fighting her, I would have stopped at the house when she was outside and fought her.

23:35Where's the knife at this point?

23:36It's on the hood of my car.

23:37On the hood of your car.

23:39Ready.

23:40That's not exactly a defensive position.

23:42At around 12.30 a.m., Sarah and her friends arrived outside Laboia's house.

23:47The minivan screeched to a halt.

23:50Wade was ready.

23:51Within moments, Sarah is out of the car and face to face with her armed rival.

23:56Let's talk about the fight.

23:57Witnesses agree that the whole thing lasted just a few seconds.

24:01Is that your recollection?

24:02That I don't remember much of it, but yes.

24:04You told police you were flailing with both arms everywhere with the knife pointed out like this.

24:15I remember walking towards her with the knife pointed out, and I remember being struck one time and my head being kind of pushed down, and then I started swinging.

24:23One time?

24:24Okay.

24:24At the time, you said you were hit more than one time.

24:27I mean, I remember being hit once and my head being pushed down with the other two coming towards me.

24:33Sarah was unarmed.

24:34But Rachel was ready to strike back with deadly force.

24:38Her knife came down on Sarah twice.

24:40The second stab, fatal.

24:42The fatal stab wound was a forcible wound, right?

24:47It was two and a half inches deep.

24:49Pierced the pectoral muscle, all the fatty tissue, the fourth rib, in fact, the left lung, and into the heart.

24:57It had to be delivered in a downward striking motion with weight behind it.

25:04In fact, witnesses described what they saw consistent with that.

25:11Do you admit that?

25:13I don't recall a lot of that moment.

25:15If you can't remember the stabbing, how can you be so sure about all the other details that you recount from that?

25:22I mean, there's a lot of stuff that I'm not sure about that you've said that I don't recall any of them.

25:27Were you, like, in a blind rage?

25:30Is that why you can't remember?

25:32Could have been.

25:32After the stabbing, eyewitnesses saw Sarah stagger back to the minivan, where she used her last breath to call Josh.

25:42But all she could say is, it hurts.

25:45Then she collapsed on the pavement.

25:47At 12.45 a.m., Sarah's friend, Jaleesha Smith, frantically calls 911.

25:52What happened?

25:54F*** Rachel!

25:56Just f***ed out her.

25:57Okay, where on the body is the patient stabbed?

25:59I swear to God, this is...

26:01Okay, where on the body is the patient stabbed?

26:04I see a bone in the chest.

26:06So what has got to come?

26:07This girl on the ground passed out.

26:10I don't know if she's alive.

26:11I don't know.

26:11I understand it, okay?

26:13Listen, we do have some help on the way.

26:1518-year-old Sarah Ludeman was bleeding to death, and Rachel Wade was about to answer for her actions.

26:22We're out in the street holding it in a pipe.

26:28Rachel, this is where you're going to have to help me out, because it's not defense to me when you go out into the street with a knife and confront them.

26:37A self-defense means you have no choice, right?

26:41But you had plenty.

26:45The voice on the 911 call was Javier Laboy, Rachel Wade's friend and sometimes boyfriend.

27:07He was trying to stop Sarah's bleeding by applying pressure to the stab wound.

27:11Calm down, calm down, sir.

27:15They're on the way.

27:16The police are on the way.

27:17Just tell me what happened.

27:20She pulled out her pocket knife.

27:23Last time we got to them, she was already set.

27:25She was on the floor.

27:26Okay, okay.

27:27She's there.

27:28Everything's in the hall.

27:29Stay on the line with me.

27:29Hold on.

27:30And where's the knife now, sir?

27:32I have no idea.

27:34Shortly thereafter, the police arrived at the scene to find Sarah lying in the street, her breathing shallow.

27:41Rachel Wade, meanwhile, was sitting calmly on a bench smoking a cigarette, but first Wade threw the murder weapon onto a neighbor's roof.

27:48Your account shifted a lot to police, right?

27:54At first at the scene, you told them you didn't know what happened to Sarah and you didn't mention the knife.

28:00You ditched the knife.

28:02I did.

28:03And omitted it from your first police statement.

28:06I did.

28:06Why?

28:07I fear.

28:08Fear of?

28:10The outcome.

28:11I didn't really know what had actually happened.

28:13You were hiding evidence.

28:15Yes.

28:15There are disturbing accounts of your manner after you killed Sarah.

28:20One of the witnesses recounted that you were smirking or smiling after the stabbing.

28:27One cop said she appeared calm and unconcerned as to the events taking place around her.

28:33Another officer said the entire time she never became upset, never cried, never asked how the person who was stabbed was.

28:43How do you account for that?

28:44I don't recall much of any of that.

28:46I remember sitting on the front porch.

28:47I remember having guns drawn at me.

28:49At the time, you said that, well, I was in shock.

28:55They were noting your manner, your calm, unconcerned manner with suspicion.

29:01Meanwhile, Sarah was actually in a physical state of shock.

29:06She had lost half the blood in her body.

29:08Under interrogation by homicide detectives just after the stabbing, Rachel claimed she was only defending herself.

29:16She just started screaming at me and she laughed at me and said I wasn't going to do anything.

29:20And then she realized that I had a knife and she kind of backed up and then she started swinging at me anyways.

29:24And I just pulled me around.

29:25Where were you holding the knife at?

29:26I just had it out to the side and then I saw Janet coming at me and I saw the other girl come around in the back end of the car.

29:33And they were all screaming at me.

29:34At one point, you told police all three women were chasing you around your car, which doesn't match any of the evidence.

29:44I don't know why I said they were chasing me around my car.

29:46They did run up to my car, all three of them at one time.

29:49Some of the witnesses say that they didn't all get out together.

29:54Some say they did.

29:56Even though you made it sound like you were basically fending off Sarah and Janet at the same time.

30:01All of the witnesses say that no one touched you until after you fought and stabbed Sarah.

30:09Is that true?

30:10I don't recall anybody but Sarah hitting me initially, yes.

30:16The next piece of information that you need to know is that she is dead.

30:23Oh my God.

30:24And she died as a result of these stab wounds that she had at Northside Hospital.

30:35Detectives deliver the devastating news of Sarah's death.

30:38Then dismantle Wade's self-defense claims.

30:41If you're 19, you have to know that holding a knife in your hand, whether you intended to or not,

30:48if you stab somebody, the risk of that is a, the knife is a deadly weapon.

30:53You know that people die from sexual wounds.

30:57So if you're holding a knife during a fight, the chance of that happening obviously increases dramatically.

31:04Rachel, this is where you're going to have to help me out because it's not defense to me when you go out into the street with the knife and confront them.

31:17The homicide detective explained it to you in that interrogation.

31:20Self-defense means you have no choice, right?

31:24But you had plenty.

31:25You could have stayed home and called the police.

31:27You could have gone to your parents and called the police.

31:29You could have taken shelter inside Javier's home and called the police.

31:35You could have just gone home when Josh said, go home.

31:40How do you account for that?

31:42I mean, you're right.

31:43I could have done any of those things.

31:45Most importantly, I could have called my parents.

31:48It would have been a safe place.

31:51This is why it looks more like fury than fear.

31:55It turns out Wade's blind rage had driven her to a knife attack once before.

32:02Now, this wasn't the first time you were violent with a knife.

32:05What about in November of 2005?

32:09Didn't you attack your mother?

32:11I was just attempting to cut myself and she tried to stop me.

32:15And I threw the knife and went in the bathroom.

32:17Well, first you assaulted her physically.

32:20I don't remember.

32:21I just remember throwing the knife when she came after me to take it from me.

32:24It's in the police report.

32:25You dug your fingers into her arms.

32:27You ran to the kitchen.

32:29You grabbed the knife and you threw it at her.

32:31Thank God.

32:32The blade didn't strike her abdomen.

32:35But is that another example of like you going into the red zone?

32:40Yes.

32:41Do you think that is part of your mental makeup or condition?

32:47Absolutely.

32:47Do you know the term covet?

32:51The covet?

32:53That's when you want something so desperately that you can't have or that someone else has.

33:00And it occupies your thoughts every day until it narrows your focus.

33:06And then it starts to drive your choices and behavior.

33:11Does that ring true at all for you?

33:12Um, I think so.

33:14Yeah.

33:15Looking back, that could definitely.

33:17Did you kill Sarah out of your covetous desire to possess what she had with Josh?

33:24I can't say that because I didn't have the intent to kill Sarah.

33:30The crime leaves Sarah's father, Charlie Luderman, heartbroken, looking for answers and seeking cold comfort in calls to his dead daughter's cell phone.

33:39Yeah, Sarah, Daddy, you know, you're not with us no more.

33:45I'm hoping somebody's listening to this phone.

33:48If you are, you can call me and I'll be probably on your screen.

33:54My daughter was killed last night, but I just want a little closure.

33:59End of message.

34:01Would Sarah's parents and friends finally get the closure and answers they need?

34:05During the tense trial, Rachel Wade will try her best to avoid responsibility.

34:11I acted in self-defense because I got attacked.

34:19Did you murder her mother to try and drive her back into your arm?

34:24Oh, my God.

34:27Interview with a Killer.

34:29New episode next Saturday at 8 Eastern and Pacific.

34:32Only on Court TV.

34:33Six-year-old shot his teacher.

34:36They're tried battling that it is part of the job.

34:40Just outrageous.

34:41The first grader shoots teacher civil trial.

34:44Live coverage weekday mornings, 8, 7 central on Court TV.

34:54State, you may proceed with your opening statement.

34:56On July 21st of 2010, at the Pinellas County Courthouse in Clearwater, Florida, Rachel Wade's murder trial began.

35:05Wade pleaded not guilty.

35:06This is Florida, after all, where the stand-your-ground law allows for lethal force in cases of self-defense.

35:13Wade's attorney tried to use just that.

35:15This case is about self-defense.

35:17Make no mistake about it.

35:21Make no mistake about it.

35:23An individual has a right to stand their ground and defend themselves.

35:27They have no duty to retreat.

35:29And Rachel Wade had the right to defend herself that night.

35:32But prosecutors have the benefit of Wade's own incriminating words.

35:41Guaranteeing you, I'm going to murder you.

35:44That is what Rachel Wade told Sarah Luderman seven and a half months before she took a knife and stabbed her right through the heart.

35:56Many of those there that night testified that Rachel was furious and made her plans known.

36:02At some point in the vehicle, while you were in the vehicle, did you overhear a conversation?

36:08A phone conversation?

36:09Yes.

36:10Um, yes.

36:11I heard a girl's voice on Sarah's phone.

36:15And it said, I'm going to stab you and your Mexican boyfriend.

36:17Okay.

36:18Could you clearly hear the conversation?

36:21Yes.

36:22Tell the jury exactly what you heard her say.

36:24She said, I'm going to stab you.

36:26And your Mexican boyfriend.

36:28At some point in time, did she make the statement that she was going to kill her?

36:32Yes.

36:33Okay.

36:33What was the statement that she made?

36:36I'm going to kill that bitch.

36:40So, several months prior, you threatened her life.

36:45Within hours, or maybe even minutes, of the confrontation, the physical confrontation,

36:55you're heard by three people, two different incidents, threatening her life.

37:02But you deny that now.

37:04I did not say that that night.

37:06You did not make either of those death threats?

37:08I did not make those threats that night.

37:10Are you sure?

37:10I'm very sure.

37:12Because you did have some memory lapses that night.

37:15Yes.

37:16Right.

37:16But I know that I didn't, I barely even had a conversation with her that night.

37:20The evidence of murder piled up in the courtroom.

37:24Witness after witness sided against Rachel, including Janet Camacho, Josh's sister,

37:29recounting how Rachel approached Sarah on the offensive with a weapon.

37:33I see Rachel come up around her car with a knife in her hand.

37:40Around the front of her car?

37:41Yeah.

37:42Did she travel the entire distance from driver's side of the car to passenger's side?

37:47Like, from where she was at, from that side, came around in front of Sarah's car.

37:55The defense would argue that Janet Camacho had an axe to grind.

37:59But witness Dustin Grimes was hard to impeach.

38:02An army soldier, who by the time the trial started was serving overseas, gave his testimony by video.

38:08As the van is put in the park, the three girls get out of the van at the same time.

38:16At that time, Rachel is already making her way towards Sarah, towards the driver's side in front of the vehicle.

38:21The most nonpartisan witness said he saw you move from your car to engage Sarah just as she had gotten out of the driver's side of the van.

38:33And the forensic reports confirm that, estimating that you must have crossed about 12 feet to get to her.

38:44I don't recall.

38:45I remember them saying that they pulled up directly in front of my car and when they all jumped out at one time.

38:51In fact, even the judge said at the sentencing, the testimony of every single witness was that the defendant went towards the victim.

39:05Do you agree with that?

39:06All right, yes.

39:10Defense, please call your first witness.

39:13Because we would call Javier Le Boy.

39:14Only Rachel's former boyfriend, Javier Le Boy, offered a token defense at trial.

39:21When Sarah got out of the vehicle, would you tell this jury, in your opinion, based on the observation, who was the aggressor in that situation?

39:32Sarah was.

39:34Will you tell this jury who was the one to throw the first punch?

39:39Sarah was.

39:40Finally, in a risky move, Rachel Wade took the stand.

39:44I began to swing my arms back in retaliation.

39:48To defend yourself?

39:49Yes.

39:50But her defense fell apart under withering cross-examination.

39:53You said that you couldn't even remember the point that you stabbed her.

39:56I don't remember physically stabbing her.

40:00You remember everything else.

40:01You remember what happened before.

40:06You remember all the threats, right?

40:08Yes.

40:08You remember everything that happened afterwards, right?

40:11And Jenna coming at you, right?

40:12Yes.

40:13You just don't remember that.

40:15I don't.

40:16So how would you know that you acted in self-defense if you don't remember that?

40:20I just remember swinging my arms.

40:22I don't physically remember stabbing her.

40:24You told her you were going to murder her.

40:28Correct?

40:29Yes.

40:29You said Sarah had told you the same things.

40:33Yes.

40:34You're the only one that actually followed through on your promise.

40:39Isn't that true?

40:41Yes.

40:41In the end, the jury took only two hours to convict you, right?

40:48The defendant is guilty of murder in the second degree as charged.

40:51So say we all.

40:52They could have opted for manslaughter, but they didn't.

40:55They chose second degree murder.

40:57Right?

40:57A self-defense acquittal didn't sound like it was even on their radar.

41:02Do you now understand why?

41:04Yes.

41:04How would you explain it?

41:06I didn't hide from it.

41:08I didn't call the cops.

41:10Everything leading up to it looked damaging.

41:12On some level, you did feel an existential threat from Sarah.

41:18Not physically, but really, I guess, more in terms of your ego and the way you sort of organized your world.

41:26Could it be that that night, when he clearly chose Sarah over you, right, that your ego was too fragile to bear it, and so you acted to annihilate the threat?

41:41Sarah.

41:42Possibly, I don't know.

41:43Our one-hour interview was about to end, but there was one final question to drive at, the most important one.

41:52Rachel Wade can't have it both ways.

41:55Would she still insist, as she has for the last 16 years, that the killing was in self-defense?

42:00Or was it murder?

42:05You got 27 years.

42:07Yes.

42:07Right?

42:08Could have gotten life.

42:09Yes.

42:09Have you accepted your sentence now?

42:14I have.

42:15That wasn't always the case?

42:17No.

42:17In the beginning, I rebelled.

42:18I was very upset.

42:20You filed appeals.

42:21Yes.

42:21They were denied.

42:23You did a fair amount of blame shifting over time.

42:26Yes.

42:27Right?

42:27You realize that?

42:28Yes.

42:28Blamed the victim, putting you in this position, blamed Josh.

42:33You blamed the police at one point.

42:35You said they never do anything.

42:36You even blamed your own attorney in motions for ineffective counsel.

42:42Yes.

42:43You said at the time you were truly remorseful.

42:47Is that true?

42:49Yes.

42:50I think once it all sank in.

42:54Sorry.

42:56Okay.

42:56That thing looks at all sinking in reality that I killed somebody.

43:00Yes.

43:07Remorse requires that you accept responsibility for the wrong that you did.

43:13Murdering Sarah.

43:14Yes.

43:15Do you accept that you murdered Sarah?

43:17Yes.

43:17In one word, for the first time, Wade issues a long-delayed confession.

43:26At the sentencing hearing, Sarah's father, Charlie Luterman, who has since passed away,

43:32would give an emotional impact statement, bringing the courtroom to tears.

43:36It was a fitting tribute to a young woman taken too soon for no good reason.

43:41My child was stabbed to death by Rachel Wade.

43:44She was only 18 years old.

43:47I will never hold her.

43:49I will never see her get married.

43:51Never hear her laugh at my dumb jokes.

43:54Never drive around with me in a cab like she did when she was a little girl.

43:57The special way only a father and daughter could relate and bond.

44:04I will only be able to hear her voice by calling her phone and hear her say,

44:10Hey, it's Sarah.

44:11Leave me a message and I'll call you back.

44:14Why?

44:15Because Rachel chose to bring a knife.

44:18She wouldn't fight fair.

44:19She wouldn't fight for her.

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