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Well Enough episode 8 men's mental health with Owen O'Kane and Matt JohnsonCredit: Well Enough/The Independent
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00:00Good therapy is about always, always, always go to the humanity first.
00:03Don't go looking for pathology or diagnosis or labels, go to the humanity.
00:07That one size fit all doesn't really work and looking at that person and looking at their lives,
00:12looking at the energy they have within themselves, that's really important.
00:16That's what really helped me.
00:17We have to have therapy as therapists.
00:19I think that's a really important thing to say, I'm not sitting here as some guru.
00:23I mean I've had my own...
00:24You thought you were fixed?
00:25No, never.
00:26Don't be deluded.
00:30This episode contains discussions of suicide, so please listen with care.
00:34You can find links to resources in the show notes.
00:3712 million men say they have never spoken about their mental health and that is 20% of the UK population.
00:43In this episode of Well Enough, I am joined by TV presenter and leading mental health campaigner, Matt Johnson.
00:48Matt is a representative for Mind and for Movember.
00:51Welcome Matt.
00:52Thanks for having me.
00:53We're also joined by Owen O'Kane, Sunday Times bestselling author of Addicted to Anxiety.
00:59He's also the therapist to stars like Lewis Capaldi.
01:02Thank you so much for joining us, Owen.
01:03Thank you for having me.
01:04I wonder if both of you could give maybe a clearer definition of what some of the symptoms of depression and anxiety are,
01:10because someone might be experiencing them and maybe might not even be able to recognise those.
01:14Well, I can speak from my experience.
01:17So what I was going through in between 2007 and 2009 would be now classless depression and quite serious depression.
01:30There was no feeling of joy or in any situation.
01:34I wasn't excited about anything.
01:36The feelings that I had were very numb and dumbed down.
01:39I wasn't able to connect with anyone.
01:43I couldn't really have eye contact.
01:45I was shying away from social situations, but only if I had alcohol, I could engage in those activities.
01:52And I felt a lot of that time very lonely and isolated.
01:57So from my perspective, that period of depression that I was going through, the symptoms were quite obvious.
02:04And I was, like I said, self-diagnosing for a lot of the time.
02:09I had no idea what was going on.
02:10It was a lot different to what it is now.
02:12I had no idea.
02:13There was no real podcast or anything to go to about what I was going through.
02:17But yeah, my symptoms were pretty numbed down across the board.
02:21I think there are often symptoms we miss with depression, you know, so you never see in a tick box loneliness.
02:27You know, when people when I worked in the NHS, you never see that as a symptom.
02:30And yeah, it's probably one of the key symptoms of depression where people feel very, very lonely and disconnected in some way.
02:38But we don't kind of really measure that as problematic.
02:41And a lot of people as well, particularly men, will try to continue functioning as normal.
02:47So it's really difficult to sometimes differentiate because they're going to work.
02:51They're they're out socializing.
02:52They're having a beer.
02:53They're going to football, whatever they may be doing.
02:55So it's hard to see within all of that.
02:57Well, you seem to be doing OK.
02:59What's going on?
03:00And then normally when you start to break it down with people, you discover there is a day to day stuff.
03:04There's patterns of thought that can be problematic in terms of how they're thinking.
03:09Often very negative, critical thought processes that go on.
03:12A real lack of interest.
03:14You know, just that feeling of I genuinely can't be arsed doing anything.
03:19And it's not a kind of it's not even demotivation.
03:22It goes beyond that.
03:23It's just like, actually, no, I don't want to.
03:25I can't.
03:26The thought of the thought of like going to the shop for some milk might feel completely overwhelming.
03:34And I think these symptoms can vary with people.
03:36You know, and I guess my rule of thumb is, you know, if there's been a period where the bad days start to outnumber the good days, well, then that's normally a really good time to go for help or support or at least speak to someone.
03:49Because there's I mean, this is the tragedy, really.
03:52There's so many things and I'm sure Matt would agree.
03:55I mean, there's just so many treatments and so many small things that we can do that can be enormously helpful.
04:01But it's just that that the beginning that the beginning of that conversation where it feels like everything's falling apart or it feels like everything's dark.
04:09If somebody at that stage can realize actually this first initial step could be one of the most powerful that you can take.
04:15That's there's real freedom and not so, you know, like if we had 20 people here today and talk me through your depression, they would all give us a different story and varying symptoms.
04:26I think what was difficult for me was trying to push a square peg through a round hole with with all those symptoms, the lack of joy, the isolation, the loneliness, the self diagnosis, the alcoholism, all those things that I was dealing with, the lack of sleep.
04:40Actually, I was so tired and everything was overwhelming, like getting out of bed was a struggle.
04:45Having to go to work and having to do the normal day to day things and trying to socialize was the point where I felt like I couldn't continue anymore because that was the most difficult part was I was unaware of what I was going through.
05:01I thought my family was cursed or something. I just didn't know what was happening to me.
05:05Um, but the faking it till I made it that turning up every day and pretending that was the killer for me.
05:11That was the really difficult part for me was that finding the energy to pretend and put on another mask for whoever I was working for at that time.
05:20And, and that was the real, real problem for me was that inauthenticity of life.
05:25If I'm working with somebody who's struggling with depression, rather than trying to get too over involved in the chemical stuff and the symptoms, I often think if you can think of this as a part of you, you know, you know, a part of you that's in difficulty and how you want to relate to that part of you and how you want to work with it and what that part might need.
05:45That can be, that can be revolutionary for, for most people. And, you know, particularly if people have kids or someone in their family that they're really close to and you think, okay, if you were watching them go through a really awful time and they, they were finding it hard to get through the day, what would you want to do for them?
06:01And they like, most people will immediately say, I'll sit down with them and I'll comfort them and I'll look after them and I'll tell them there's no pressure.
06:08So in therapy, often, very often what you're trying to do is saying, what, what would it be like for you to, to work with this part of you?
06:15So rather than see it as a negative or a bad thing or a terrible thing, even though the symptoms are uncomfortable, what would it be like to kind of, this is going to sound really cliched, but what would it be like to take this part of you by the hand and say, it's all right, I'm going to look after you.
06:28Not permission and not freedom.
06:30You know, I see this in, in practice all the time.
06:33That, that can be a great starting point because there's no judgment.
06:36There's no shame.
06:37It's like, no, this is a part of you that's having a hard time.
06:39We're going to start looking after the part.
06:41That's sorry.
06:42It was, it was, that's what is really interesting about mine is that compartmentalization of the two things with diagnosis.
06:49I could see it that it was depression and it kind of gives it reasoning.
06:53It, um, it allows you to see it for what it is.
06:56It's whether you want to call it in a child thing or whatever, it helped me kind of see myself as two different beings, you know, whereas the lack of awareness and the lack of understanding, um, made me want to kill that part of myself.
07:11That's what it was.
07:12You know, my, my, my suicide attempt in 2009 was now I know in hindsight, me trying to just kill that part of me off at that was overtaking everything.
07:21But the kind of love and compassion that I have when you do try and understand that part of yourself, that part of yourself is frightened and scared and trying to keep you safe and all those different things.
07:30It's really helped me, um, then take care of that part of myself.
07:35So then I can then it's quite, it's quite like a light going on moment when I did have that, um, difference of opinion.
07:43And then I could say like, what do I need?
07:45What is that part of me trying to say?
07:47What is it saying?
07:48And it definitely was saying, please don't pretend anymore and pretend to be this person.
07:53Um, you know, if, if you don't want to be in that social situation, maybe avoid it for a little bit.
07:59And as soon as I switched that immediately, I didn't feel that negative energy towards myself as much.
08:05It really, that compassion for that part of me helped me exponentially.
08:09I hope you're finding Matt and Owen's advice useful and enjoying this episode here at Well Enough.
08:14We want to keep conversations like this one going and they're crucial for advancing conversations around mental health and other topics around wellbeing in the UK.
08:22But we can only do this with your support.
08:24So please consider liking, subscribing, sharing this episode.
08:28Owen, do you, I mean, could you describe for us what the landscape looks like in the UK for men's mental health at the moment?
08:34It's pretty grim, if I'm being honest.
08:37I mean, I think there, there, there are two things.
08:39Um, you know, this is not new information, but there, you know, look, there is just a lack of treatment.
08:44You know, I mean, the, I worked in the NHS as a clinical lead for mental health and I know people are doing their best.
08:50So it's not a bit, it's not a criticism of the NHS and the people who work within it because they are working at capacity, doing their very, very best.
08:57But there are just a lot of people out there who don't have access to help.
09:00And I think part of the challenge is that people believe that, you know, as Matt was saying earlier, they're about not boxing people off.
09:07I mean, it's rare to meet someone who's just depressed because often they, they might have some depression, but they also might be quite anxious alongside that.
09:15Or they might have strong anxiety, but they might have like secondary low mood or they might have background trauma that's never been dealt with.
09:23So, or, you know, there might be addiction in the background or ADHD, the symptoms of ADHD, depression, anxiety and stuff, all of these things.
09:30And, you know, of course, you know, we know about these conversations are very open, but I, I think sometimes we, we, we believe that people can be fit into a box.
09:39You know, in mental health, they talk about primary mental health, which is just like people come with a disorder and they can be treated in six weeks, which is not going to happen.
09:46And then you get the other side of the scale, which is secondary mental health, where people might have more acute difficulties, but there's nothing for people who are in the middle.
09:53And in my experience, that's most of the population who are struggling there.
09:57There is no kind of middle ground catchment.
09:59So I think that's a challenge and it's a difficulty.
10:02And I also think as well, we live in a culture where we have more information, we are talking more, we have access to language.
10:10So at one level, that's an incredibly good thing because it's just kind of opened up the conversation.
10:15But what it's also done is it's highlighted the deficit and the gap and the need.
10:21And we've kind of also moved into this very pathological diagnostic culture, which I think is beginning to become problematic.
10:29So it's a really mixed bag. But I think if, you know, if I go back again to the simplicity just of some of what Matt was saying there, you know, in my own thought, we have to have therapy as therapists.
10:39I think that's a really important thing to say. I'm not sitting here as some guru.
10:43I mean, I've had my own.
10:44I thought you were fixed.
10:45No, never.
10:46Don't be deluded.
10:48You can't just soak up everyone else's feelings, can you?
10:51There has to be an outlet for that.
10:52I mean, even outside of that, you know, yeah, I think some of the best therapists I know have worked through a lot of their own story or their own stuff because it makes them particularly good at their job.
11:02And I remember even in my own therapy years ago, having this moment where there was a realisation that there are, you know, we all walk around with three parts as adults.
11:10You know, we've got our adult self, you know, we function in the world and we do our jobs and everything's good.
11:16And then for most of us, then we've also got this teenager inside us.
11:19And some of the stuff there may not have been resolved.
11:21And that's the part of us that might be a bit grumpy or a bit irritated or angry or acting out cynical.
11:27Yeah, a little bit kind of defensive or reactive.
11:30And then beyond that, then you've got a child, child part.
11:34And often, you know, I think a lot of us crash land into adulthood.
11:39And this is not about blaming families or cultures or religions, but a lot of our needs are not met.
11:44So we crash land into adulthood and often the needs of the child or the teenager have been neglected.
11:49And the adult then just ploughs ahead without realising, OK, there's all of this stuff going in here.
11:55And I think most of it for anyone who's struggling, really, what they've managed to do is to get away.
12:01You know, they've got out of their childhood, they've got through their teenage years and they've got into adulthood and they've survived.
12:07And most of their life has been about survival.
12:10But, you know, I remember my own therapy once my therapist pointed out to me, say, God, you've done a very good job with the survival stuff.
12:16So for me, it would have been more about anxiety because I grew up in Belfast and Irish and Catholic and all of that stuff and sexuality and coming out.
12:24So there was a whole mixed bag of threat. And I remember my therapist said to me, God, you've done a really good job.
12:30But you got it. You got away.
12:32You know, you got out and you learned how to survive and you learned how to function very well.
12:36And he said, but have you ever thought that you've never really gone back to rescue the little fella who was kind of left in the burning building?
12:43And I thought it was a brilliant analogy because he was describing that that we often, you know, if you think of that analogy of a house on fire, we get away and we get out and we stay in survival mode.
12:53But very few people go back to think, oh, there's the emotional needs of this little person who was left behind.
13:00And I think very often that's what the work's about when you're working with somebody who's going through a tough time.
13:05So when we're talking about meeting these parts, I mean, very often what you are doing is you're going back and you're meeting the part of you that's thinking this, this didn't happen.
13:14And maybe you weren't looked after in the right way and maybe you didn't.
13:17Those needs didn't get met.
13:19So the adult in you then goes back and starts to do that work.
13:24And then people then do start to feel a lot better.
13:27But you're, you know, primarily these conversations are about going back to rescue yourself.
13:32And I think that's such an important conversation that, you know, nobody is coming to, you know, there is help and support out there and there's brilliant organisations.
13:39So you're not on your own, but ultimately you've got to do the work.
13:43I think that's really integral with, with men as well.
13:46I think what men often want, and I speak from my personal experience and my male friends, it's transactional.
13:53What am I going to get out of this therapy?
13:55Am I going to be bigger, better, stronger?
13:57What, what's going to happen?
13:58And it's far more nuanced than that in this world.
14:00So I think there's so many reasons why men, um, struggle to kind of get to that therapy.
14:05And of course the services aren't as great without finances to get to that.
14:09And when you're doing all of this work and overhearing people talk about inner child work, it's like, what's, what's going on?
14:16I need something, I need to feel better immediately.
14:18Whereas, um, tools like the gym, you do get an immediate response.
14:22Your endorphins, you get bigger, you get healthier.
14:24And even alcohol, you get an immediate fix, you know, all those types of things.
14:28And I think men as well in that arena, um, it's a long process therapy and you have to do a lot of work yourself.
14:35And nobody's just going to wave a magic wand and fix you like that pint of wine does.
14:40You know, and I think that's what's really interesting about it.
14:43It feels very transactional.
14:44I found it very difficult at the beginning to talk about my inner child.
14:49I just didn't understand that, you know, I wanted it to be fixed straight away.
14:52And I think that's something that we're working with, with men.
14:56That's an uphill struggle too.
14:57Can I ask you a question?
14:58Yeah.
14:59What was the inner child work that you did?
15:01What do you do to nourish your inner you?
15:03I mean, it's interesting.
15:04I mean, I, it's funny you're talking about this inner child stuff because that, that language sometimes even, and I'm a therapist, I do this stuff.
15:11That language makes me kind of get a bit...
15:13A bit alarming for big strong men, can't it?
15:15Yeah.
15:16It's sort of like, it gets a bit, um, I noticed my own sort of internalized, I don't even know if it's internalized homophobia, but there's part of me thinking, oh, this is a bit soft, that inner child stuff.
15:28I kind of react to it a bit.
15:29Um, I mean, it's interesting for me because I, I think I spent a lot of time doing, I think what a lot of blokes do is I spent a lot of time thinking, I'm going to, I'm going to go to the gym.
15:40I'm going to start running.
15:41I'm going to be doing, I'm going to do all these things.
15:43I learned how to meditate.
15:45So I became, I think I, I guess in my twenties, my thirties, I became kind of very functional wellbeing.
15:50And then it took me a long time to really, and I think we see a lot of this in social media, particularly with men's health, it's all about, you know, getting bigger, getting stronger.
15:57Sort of alpha cultures, like it's building strength, building resilience.
16:01And don't get me wrong.
16:02All of these things are really important.
16:03But I think the point that we miss, and I see it every day of the week in social media, like we see all sorts of gurus giving tips and advice on what to do.
16:11And it's often about, okay, this is hard to not feel.
16:14This is hard to get away.
16:17This is hard to run.
16:18This is hard to avoid.
16:19And of course, in psychology, we know that's the very thing that just keeps the problem alone.
16:24You know, it keeps it going.
16:25If all of the techniques are about, okay, if you do this here, then you're not going to feel sad.
16:30If you do this, you're not going to feel anxious.
16:32If you do this, then you're going to feel better.
16:34You know, that's not what it's about.
16:36You know, life is not about feeling good all the time and feeling better and feeling top of the world.
16:40That is not, that's not the reality of the human condition.
16:43We, the kind of fluctuations and the ups and downs are part of the, you know, that's, that's what it is to be human.
16:50And often these, you know, more difficult emotions that come up, they're actually there for a reason.
16:55They're not bad.
16:56They're not negative, actually.
16:57They can be a really important part of getting you back to your point of balance or equilibrium or helping you regulate.
17:03So you're kind of working with both the whole time.
17:06And I guess we're in this culture at the minute, particularly in social media, where it seems to be about getting better, getting fixed quickly.
17:14But then my argument and all of this here is that, well, if it comes at the cost of abandoning yourself, which is like, okay, I won't allow myself to feel sad.
17:23I won't allow myself to struggle.
17:25I won't allow myself to get it wrong or feel or screw up.
17:28Well, then that becomes a self abandonment as such.
17:31And that's never going to be a healthy thing.
17:33So I think the conversations get confused and lost.
17:36This kind of self optimization culture is quite tied up with what we call toxic masculinity, isn't it?
17:43And I mean, that phrase, there are pros and cons, I think, to using that phrase.
17:48It's also become one of these stereotypes that we throw around quite a lot.
17:52But I do worry about boys at school and how they're kind of taking on this self optimization stuff, especially through social media.
18:01And I wonder what both of your thoughts are on that, because you've got healthy expressions of masculinity and the right language to talk about feelings and to not feel like you have to burn down the version of you that's sad or angry.
18:13And then you've got quite a different approach, which is what a lot of these optimization guys are talking about.
18:18It's a fascinating conversation because for me, the whole kind of masculinity thing has always been a struggle.
18:24And I guess, you know, as a gay kid growing up and coming out and all of that sort of stuff, there's always an inner battleground anyway about, you know, God, what is it to be?
18:33I mean, certainly in my early days, it was about trying to be masculine so that I wouldn't be found out.
18:38So there's a lot of effort went in to try and, you know, cover up so that there wouldn't be an exposure or somebody would find out about this here.
18:46And then, of course, you get older and wise when you realize, well, all of this is about accepting self really.
18:52And I guess one of the advantages, I mean, I used to got in my early 20s as I go, God, why the hell have I, why am I gay?
18:58My brothers are all straight, getting married, having kids. And I really felt it was like a negative.
19:03And I think, why God, I just wish I could be inverted commas normal like everyone else.
19:08And that was a genuine because it felt like it was too big a struggle and it was a big, big kind of hill to climb.
19:15Whereas the older I've got, I've realized actually there was so many advantages in all of that there because it kind of really made me look at the values of, you know,
19:24because a lot of the focus on masculinity is about the physicality, the persona, how you look, what are the values of a real man?
19:33Now, I know that sounds a bit stereotypical, but actually the reality is that still goes on a lot.
19:38And I think as a gay man having to navigate through all of that, you just know that you can't buy into it.
19:43It's just not going to cut through. So you're almost forced to go the other way and kind of get to know all of these other parts of yourself and get comfortable with it.
19:50And then realize actually these are, these values are just as important in terms of masculinity as all of these other things.
19:58But of course they, they don't get the exposure.
20:01And I guess if I'm working with groups of men or I'm working with, with men of any description, I mean, it's interesting.
20:07I did a gig about two years ago for the motor industry and it was 500 blokes and they contacted me.
20:13It was odd that they chose me to come and do the gig.
20:15But part of the briefing was this is 500 guys.
20:19They haven't done a mental health talk before.
20:22We think your tone might land very well with them, but you just might be mindful of maybe not revealing too much about your personal life.
20:33So I knew what they meant.
20:35They were very polite about it.
20:36I've had this before with religious organizations and stuff.
20:40I did a talk for 300 bishops, which was hilarious.
20:45I mean, again, why did they invite me?
20:47And that was again, a tentative.
20:49They didn't say don't, but it was a tentative tip tone.
20:51So I'm always in these situations where it's kind of be aware that the audience.
20:55And interestingly with these guys, I went in and I was quite nervous about doing the talk because they had kind of, they'd sort of built it up that it was going to be a really difficult gig and that they might be a little bit hostile and non-responsive and not receptive to you.
21:09And of all of the speaking gigs I've done in my career, they were probably the most hungry for content in all of my speaking gigs and they were really open.
21:19And the questions were sensible and stuff.
21:23And I deliberately went in and I thought in for a penny, in for a pound.
21:26I'm not going to, I'm not going to pretend.
21:27I'm not going to dress anything up.
21:29It was just a very ordinary, talked about my own life, talked about my work and some of these principles that we're talking about today.
21:36And they were 100% up for it.
21:39Yeah.
21:40And that, and I can remember it really made me think about we, we assume that guys are not open to these conversations or they don't care or they're not interested.
21:47But I think, I think that's a fallacy.
21:50100% agree with you.
21:51The work I do with Movember constantly.
21:53I do a lot of work up north with builders and building companies.
21:57Every single one is my, my favourite audience that I do.
22:01Everybody's so open and open to have conversations.
22:04And they love the authenticity of it.
22:07I think that's what it is.
22:08I think if you're open and honest about who you are, I think men in general really respond to that.
22:14Like when we see a footballer cry for whatever reason, or if we see somebody win the championships and they show true emotion, men love that.
22:23They like that authenticity.
22:24I think society in a way doesn't allow any sort of form of emotion outside of maybe the sporting arena or when your first son is born or something.
22:33But from my experience, men, men are good.
22:37Like when you, when you, especially like the work I do with Movember, the, the, the influx of men now that are ready to have these conversations and to talk about it is astounding.
22:47It's just the, the, the, the issue from my perspective is that teenage group of young men.
22:52That's, that's the problematic part.
22:53Stephen Graham created that excellent show, Adolescence.
22:56And it really shone a light on just how susceptible young people can be and how far it can take them when they're experiencing a bombardment of messaging.
23:05That is actually turning them into quite a radicalized young person when they themselves might not realize that that's happening to them.
23:12How worried are you both about the future of men's mental health if that's the kind of thing that young boys are experiencing?
23:20It's a big question.
23:21And I think, I think it's not just a question for men.
23:25And I think often the conversation goes about, you know, how do men respond?
23:30How are young boys behaving?
23:31We also have to think this is, it's a bigger conversation because it's also about expectations of men.
23:38And the conversations about how, how we, you know, how even female, how women see men and what, what they want them to be.
23:46And some of these traditional beliefs that men need to be strong and they have to be ripped.
23:51You know, this is, now I know I'm being very, very general here, but I think there are some expectations around what a man should be.
23:59And I think we, we start, we need to start having conversations broadly.
24:02I mean, it's similar with how men sometimes treat women.
24:05That's another conversation that we need to keep going back to because sometimes, you know, there's, there are real problems in that area.
24:12But I think instead of thinking about men and isolation, I think we just need to start having broader conversations around.
24:18This is not just about men, but how do we create a culture and a society where actually there is a freedom that, that this is all okay.
24:25And that these expectations to be whatever it is, to be a real man.
24:29I mean, even at a physical thing, I know a guy who's a physio and he was telling me that he's seen a lot of younger men who are struggling with like back issues and stuff.
24:38And I said, that's unusual. What do you think that's about?
24:41And he said, very often they're lifting weights and stuff.
24:43Yeah, lifting too heavy in the gym.
24:44That they're not, they're not ready for.
24:46They're like, literally, physically, their bodies are not ready.
24:48They're not developed enough to be lifting the weights that they're lifting.
24:51It's quite worrying, I think.
24:52Well, steroids is a huge problem for kids around that young age.
24:55It's a real issue.
24:56And you are absolutely right.
24:57And it just feels like, um, because the, the expectation of what a man is, is so limited, you know, the breadwinner are big and strong and there's, that's it really.
25:07There's, there's no conversation about how many different types of men there can be in this world, which, what type of man are you?
25:13Let's have a conversation about who you are as an individual, what level of the spectrum are you on femininity and everything that doesn't seem to be allowed.
25:20And we can see the ramifications of that manifesting with men being the worst they've ever have been in humanity towards women, to themselves and to other men.
25:30And the stats there show horrific numbers.
25:33And, and, and it could start with the conversation of what actually is it to be, not just a man, to be you as a human being in this world and what expectations other people have.
25:43So for example, if there are, like you were saying brilliantly, like women have an expectation of what a man is in their world and that's fine.
25:51That's okay.
25:52If that's the type, your type, that's totally fine.
25:54Not every man should be able to fit into that category of person.
25:58I think it's a type thing.
25:59The conversation about individuality and individuals is super important.
26:04What type of man am I?
26:05Not the one I should be, because that the idea of what a man should be is wrecking this planet as we speak.
26:12I agree with you.
26:13I, I have a background as a sex and relationships journalist and an intimacy coach and, and a sex educator.
26:20And consistently, I saw this wedge between young people and the way they talk about each other, about each other's bodies, about dating, about what's acceptable.
26:28And you're totally right with what you said, Owen, in that it's a conversation we all have to be having, men and women.
26:34I think so.
26:35And I think as well as like, we sometimes work with the assumption that, you know, women expect men to be X, Y, and Z.
26:42But I think too, there's a generalization there because often I think that can be cliched where it may be, maybe not all women do expect this.
26:50And maybe women would prefer if there was more openness and vulnerability and sensitivity and stuff, because I mean, these are kind of like tabloid beliefs that, you know, this is what women want and this is how you need to be.
27:02But it's, it's, it's, it's a top line.
27:04So I, I think for these conversations to kind of emerge and grow, I don't think they should be done in isolation.
27:11I think they should include like all communities, however someone identifies male, female, they, non-binary, it doesn't matter to me.
27:19I think with the, it has to be a much more inclusive conversation because there are many different types of men.
27:25And there are many different types of people, there are many different types of women.
27:28And, and we know that that fluidity, even in and around sexuality, it exists, it's there.
27:35That, that is the human condition again, with all of this boxing that goes on.
27:39Totally.
27:40Around, you know.
27:41It's very limiting.
27:42It's like, I mean, I grew up in a really working class part of Belfast.
27:45I mean, and it was just like, I mean, there was a very clear notion of what it was to be a man there.
27:51And it was probably heightened even more because all of the violence that was going on.
27:55I mean, and that's, that's interesting when I look back on them and think of the, you know, the parameters of who I was.
28:01I mean, I was like this little kid learning to play piano and a little kind of Billy Elliot sort of, of different description, but just run around kind of like living in this parallel universe where everything just, I didn't see life through that lens.
28:16But I was living in this culture where it was just like, okay, this is what you need to be.
28:20And this is how it has to be.
28:22And then suddenly then you, you move away from that.
28:25And I remember when I first came to London and lived in London, suddenly just became aware of the different variety of people and choices and how people were.
28:37I remember being genuinely gobsmacked that these worlds exist.
28:41Now, this has come back a long time.
28:43Things have moved on a lot.
28:45But yeah, I mean, this conversation, like even as we talk about it, you start thinking about the importance of this just has to become much more inclusive.
28:53And then now we have the beauty of social media where you can see so many different types of people and so many works of ways of living and walks of life.
29:03And I'm not sure if people are ready for it.
29:05If anything new is quite scary.
29:07And I find that quite interesting about how we navigate our, even people my age, you know, how we navigate seeing something new every single day.
29:17That's one thing we haven't mentioned.
29:19I mean, beneath all of this, there's one key ingredient and that's about fear.
29:24You know, some people are scared.
29:25I mean, you know, I guarantee like if we were to sit down with a group of young guys now and talk to them and explore with them what's happening.
29:32I mean, right across the board, we would find a very anxious, fearful group of people.
29:37It's about being different as well though, isn't it?
29:39I think you've both touched on that.
29:41The idea that you don't want to be perceived as different, vulnerable, weak, because you stand out and standing out to the brain equals scary.
29:49And I wonder whether speaking about your emotions being perceived as weak is something that maybe will always follow us around.
29:58You know, it certainly might not even just be the case for men.
30:01It might be the case for everybody that standing up and saying, I feel this might be quite frightening because you are feeling vulnerable in that moment.
30:08I had a young guy come to therapy last year and he wasn't joking when he came in.
30:12So his parents had recommended that he see me and he reluctantly came.
30:16They literally brought him to the office and dropped him off and he came in and sat down.
30:21He was a really, really nice kid actually, but he came in and sat down.
30:24He said, right, let's be clear. I'm here because they want me to be.
30:27He said, I don't really run any of the bullshit stuff.
30:30He said, I do feel a bit low and I'd like to feel a bit more motivated.
30:33So just help me out there. And I said, OK, well, that's that's a good starting point.
30:37And then he said, he said, I've just one thing.
30:39And he said, there's one area that I won't go to.
30:42And I said, OK, what is it? He said, I don't want to do any of the feeling stuff.
30:46And I said, welcome to therapy.
30:50I said, I said, you know what that would be like.
30:53I said, that would be like getting into a dentist and saying I'm willing to sit in the chair, but I'm not going to open my mouth.
30:59Don't touch my teeth. I said, ain't going to happen.
31:02And he laughed, but it was a really serious request about, you know, I'm not going to do the feeling stuff.
31:10I don't want to go there.
31:11Of course, as a therapist, you're like, that's exactly where we're going.
31:14Yeah, immediately.
31:15And, you know, we're unapologetically going there because that is the way through for most people is going there and seeing what the feelings are trying to show.
31:24I mean, that's the thing, isn't it? You know, if we all learned that these feelings are actually really useful, they come up, they're trying to communicate, they're trying to keep you safe.
31:33It's a navigation system.
31:34Yeah.
31:35You know, they're just trying to communicate with you and you get to know them and you work with them.
31:39And actually, they'll often lead you in the right direction.
31:42I want to try and make this as practical as possible as well because we've just spoken about how hard it can be and how tough it can be to actually, once you've found a therapist, do the work.
31:51I wonder what you think is the biggest change or the best strategy that could close the gap between people experiencing anxiety, depression, loneliness, and actually speaking to someone and gathering the tools to make a difference to that.
32:06Trying to get people to therapy is very tough, especially when it comes to men and getting them to actually admit that that's the case and then actually sticking with it and finding a good therapist and that's a really long process.
32:19I just think it would be a really good idea for everyone to know the basics of say mental health first aid, to be able to spot signs, to build a whole space, not to try and fix somebody and to help them find the right type of therapy for them.
32:36In that meantime, I think that's the gray area in the world at the moment.
32:40It feels like there's a lack of awareness with actual practical tools, what to do.
32:44Well, everywhere I go, I always get asked, like, what do I do if my son is struggling?
32:49And that's usually the case.
32:50So training people or giving people that expertise to hold that space and to safely and send somebody Owen's direction.
32:58I think that, you know, I think that would be super important.
33:02And as well, like we talk about influences from the dark side and there's so many good influences on the better side of masculinity, femininity and just mental health and wellness in general.
33:17Highlighting these people are so important.
33:20There's really good people out there.
33:21There's good men out there, you know, as well as there's so many bad ones, but it's really good male role models out there.
33:27Nobody's perfect and assigning that is really important.
33:30But I was trying to get people to feel safe to talk about their issues and know that whatever path they go down with therapy, that it's it's good to do that.
33:40It's a positive thing.
33:41Vulnerability is a positive thing.
33:43And asking for help is a really wonderful thing on if you want to know the transactional thing that I could offer a man right now out there is that, yes, there is.
33:52You will feel better, you will get to your issues and you will learn about yourself.
33:57It takes a little bit longer than maybe what you think and then a gym session.
34:00But the the on the other side of therapy, the grass is definitely greener from.
34:05Yeah, no, it's a good, it's a great way of putting it, actually.
34:08And I think, I mean, I think that I kind of core message that doesn't get translated enough is the fact that, you know, there's a lot of effort.
34:15We know things are difficult at the moment.
34:17I mean, we live in a difficult world and it's, you know, you are right.
34:20You put on the telly in the morning and it's like difficult stuff to ingest.
34:24But I think, you know, in the absence of not being able to immediately change some of the challenges that go on in the world.
34:29I mean, the core conversation for me is always about coming back to the fact that, you know, the stuff that you can change and work on is your inner platform.
34:37And that does become like a stabilisation.
34:41If you've got a steady inner platform, whatever that looks like, it just means that whatever life throws at you, whatever comes your direction, whatever the uncertainty, the unpredictability is.
34:50If you're steady in your own skin, then it's going to be much more manageable.
34:54And by that, I mean that, you know, you don't become the contents of the mind.
34:58You know, you get okay with these emotions that come and go and pass through.
35:02You know, you literally get out of your own way sometimes and let stuff just come and go naturally.
35:07And then you kind of take responsibility and hold responsibility for, okay, well, how are you living your life?
35:13You know, what does your day look like?
35:15What sort of foods are you putting into your body?
35:17You know, when are you getting exercise and who are the people in your life?
35:20What decisions are you making?
35:22Are you doing stuff in your life that puts fire in your belly?
35:25You know, are you doing stuff that matters?
35:26Because I think that's a really important part of the conversation because it's very easy, particularly if we're struggling.
35:31to drift and just kind of go through the motions and life can then just kind of start to feel like we're on a bit of a hamster wheel.
35:38Whereas it's like actually, you know, if you can hold ownership and take responsibility for these things,
35:43you know, the basic stuff like the food, the diet, the lifestyle, the choices, the people in your life,
35:49they can be incredibly important and they can really improve your life significantly.
35:55But it does ultimately come back to the, okay, how am I talking to myself?
35:59How am I treating myself?
36:00How am I looking after myself?
36:01Because, you know, you get on board with that and you get, you know, like we're here for a short period of time.
36:07But the one thing that we're stuck with for the entirety of our life is ourselves.
36:11You know, we are like, that is that that is the harsh reality.
36:16Whatever's going on in your internal world, it's with you until the day you die.
36:21So it's a pretty good idea to get comfortable with that.
36:24Yeah.
36:25And get to know all of that and get okay with it all.
36:27You know, it took me a long time to work that out.
36:29You know, there was a real perfectionist to me when I was younger.
36:32You know, understandably so, thinking I had to have it all worked out and I had to be a good person and I had to be the best at what I'm doing.
36:39And there's a real freedom.
36:40One of the things I'm enjoying about getting older is a real freedom of thinking, sometimes I can fuck it up and get it wrong.
36:46Sometimes I can fail, sometimes I can make a mistake.
36:49You know, there's no problem with that.
36:54It's like this is all part of being a human being and getting to know all of these parts.
37:01I often say that when we talk about these parts, you know, like you might have a part that's sad, you might have a part that's anxious or fearful or self-douting.
37:09And then we have all these other parts that are strong and capable and in love and all of that stuff.
37:15And I describe it like a dinner party, you know, and most people, if they're having a dinner, if I'm doing talks or whatever, workshops with people, I talk about the parts that we all have.
37:24And I'd say, you know, what parts of yourself would you invite to the dinner party?
37:28And of course, like everybody would be inviting, well, the part of me that's strong and funny and charismatic and the achiever and me and stuff.
37:36So they would get a they would get a seat at the table and say, OK, what about all these other parts?
37:42What about the part of you that's a bit sad or a bit lonely or isolated?
37:45And people are just like, oh, not really don't really fancy bringing that part of me to the dinner table.
37:51And so where do they go? So they get left outside and they get abandoned.
37:55And you were as you know, over the years, while I've discovered the people who are happiest and the people who are the people who get the most from life, I think are the people who are and just they invite everyone in.
38:07So every part. So they're OK with it, you know, it doesn't you that they're OK with all of it.
38:12And I think, you know, this is the conversation we're having today is about that.
38:16Actually, it's about just getting comfortable with all of these parts of self.
38:21They're not they're not right or wrong or good or bad.
38:24They're just part of who we are. The protector parts are normally there to keep an eye on the kind of more deep, vulnerable.
38:30You know, the parts of us that don't feel lovable or unsafe or powerless.
38:34So they all serve a function. And if you then get to know them and stuff, it can be really quite interesting.
38:39I also touched on something that I thought was really interesting, which was these kind of coping strategies in life.
38:44You know, how are you speaking to yourself? What are you doing with your body?
38:48How much sleep are you getting? And I think one of the big barriers to entry for therapy is obviously cost.
38:54For a lot of people, they're not able to access that resource, either because there's a big waiting list or because it's too expensive.
39:01So I wonder whether you have any practical advice for lifestyle changes or strategies that people might be able to do on the spot that could help them if therapy isn't immediately available to them.
39:13That was a big thing for me. I didn't have therapy for a while.
39:15And now I have been for over 10 years. It's been brilliant, but intermittent.
39:21So in between my periods of therapy and beforehand, the the the tools that I picked up were really amazing.
39:28When I first talked about my suicide attempt on this morning in 2013, I was blown away by how many kind people were out in the world and they were all offering me advice.
39:40Some of the best advice that I had was journaling. Yeah. So I journal as often as I can.
39:45It's not I do. I do tend to grab it when I'm not feeling great, but it does help having conversations.
39:52So I've got numerous friends in my friendship group and I feel myself bubbling away.
39:57Sometimes I will definitely just trauma dump on them or I'll just have a conversation with them about it.
40:02But for me, like the basic things like, yeah, looking at what I'm doing with my health.
40:07Am I walking enough and a walk in nature always helps and so boring and so predictably right.
40:12But getting that those steps in is really important.
40:16Going in the gym maybe and just cleaning up my diet, because sometimes, you know, I still I, you know, as we were saying, I'm way off perfect.
40:24And and there's messy parts to me all times.
40:27And that upset in a child pops up that's desperate for me to go and play somewhere.
40:32And I'm very lucky that I'm in check with all of that.
40:36But like, you know, it's it's those really predictable things like drinking lots of water and journaling if you can and having a human connection with people.
40:44And when I find when I do three or four, maybe five of those things on a regular basis, a few days, I have a bit more of a spring in my step, you know, and I know therapy is really difficult to get hold of or very expensive.
40:58But controlling what I can is is incredibly important to me.
41:03I think you're so right.
41:04You know, it always baffles me how good I feel after a long walk.
41:07Things become a lot clearer.
41:09Everything.
41:10The clouds part.
41:11Yeah.
41:12And like, and yeah, therapy is therapy and the gym is a tool, but like it does help.
41:16It does help boost endorphins scientifically.
41:18It's a wonderful thing is sunlight is great.
41:21Dogs are great.
41:22Petting a dog.
41:23I mean, everybody, I prescribe you all pugs.
41:25I mean, get one.
41:26They're the best things in the world.
41:28But like, you know, all of these small things add up to really big things.
41:31Every time you do choose one of those things, you choose in yourself, you know, in who you are, what you want, which is a really nice little concoction.
41:38Yeah.
41:39And it's only every single thing you've described there brilliantly is, you know, it's there's research around all of this here because I, you know, you say it's kind of always say, oh, go for a walk in nature and you can see almost the eye rolling.
41:50It's like, oh God, here we go again.
41:52But actually the research is like the neuroscientists look at this stuff and they think actually that 15 minute walk in nature can genuinely like it can reduce your blood pressure.
42:02It can reduce your cortisol levels.
42:03It can help, you know, with kind of the feel good chemicals that we know enhance our mood.
42:08So every single thing you've mentioned comes with like research clinical based evidence to say actually in between therapy, which therapy is one hour a week, you know, but good therapy is like actually now this is like a minuscule part of it.
42:21The rest of it is what goes on in your life.
42:23So in the absence of therapy, people can be doing all of these things.
42:28I mean, the only thing I would add is I would say is from a more sort of therapeutic point of view where we can operate from a thing called a negative default mode, which most people have.
42:40And I think it's really useful to get to know what your negative default mode is so that if a situation comes up or there's something going on in your life where you've had a reaction or there's something big happening.
42:50It's a really useful thing to be able to stand back and think, OK, where am I operating from at the minute?
42:55Am I operating from my negative default mode?
42:58And even that question in itself can be really powerful because you can then say, OK, I sort of know where this goes.
43:04This is a rabbit hole.
43:05And when I go down this rabbit hole, it kind of has a very predictable conclusion.
43:09So you immediately get the choice of, OK, well, where am I operating from?
43:14If I'm in this negative default mode, OK, is there a possibility that I can transition and move across and operate from a different level?
43:21Or you can think of it in a way, OK, well, you know, sometimes if I'm working with younger people, you know, put glasses on, you know, a pair of sunglasses or something and say, you know, look, we have choices in terms of how we see the world and how we see life.
43:35And sometimes we wear the same predictable glasses and that can be quite negative and critical and judgmental and quite dark.
43:42Whereas actually when we know that we can think, actually, I'm a bit bored and I'm a bit exhausted with this.
43:47I wonder, is there another way of looking at this?
43:50I wonder, can I be a bit more open?
43:52Can I be a bit more curious?
43:53Can I be a bit more interested?
43:55And then immediately you get this, you know, you get an immediate shift and OK, well, I'm in part here.
44:01I'm not just kind of going with what I normally do.
44:04So I think on top of a lot of things you've mentioned as well, I think just it's a really important question to ask every single day.
44:10OK, who's in charge here?
44:12You know, who's operating here today?
44:15And, you know, look, none of us like we do not wake up every day feeling completely motivated and ready.
44:21Springing out of bed going, I'm driving.
44:23Yeah, of course.
44:24We don't like it.
44:25Yeah.
44:26You get days when you think, all right, there's a bit of work to be done and there's a few tweaks and adjustments.
44:31But it's incredible how easy you can transition across and think, OK, well, that doesn't need to be the case today.
44:39And, you know, there are possibilities out there.
44:42And, you know, I think as well, we haven't talked about hope.
44:45And I don't mean like hope in a airy, fairy, fairy dust way, because I don't think that's ever useful.
44:52But I spent 10 years working with people who were terminally ill.
44:55I was a palliative care specialist before training as a therapist.
45:00So I would see people often in dire situations where they had a life limiting condition, very often young people who weren't going to live very long.
45:10So I spent 10 years of my career working with people who were nearing the end of their life.
45:15And someone asked me recently, what did I learn most in those 10 years?
45:20And actually, what really struck me was that her important hope was even in the most dire of circumstances.
45:27And actually, her hope for these people often became about living.
45:31Now, it wasn't the focus on dying.
45:33It was about making the best of life.
45:36And that didn't mean that there was going to be a happy ever after or an incredible outcome or that there was going to be some miracle.
45:43But it did mean that they were able to see beyond the adversity and the challenges and hold on to the fact that, you know, there are things today that that are good and the things that I can enjoy today.
45:55And there are things that I want to look forward to.
45:58And I think that's such an important conversation that it's like it's that kind of holding on to that belief that whatever the difficulty or the adversity is, that there are possibilities beyond this.
46:08And that if you're willing to allow this to be whatever it is or whatever the difficulty is, trusting that you will be OK and there will be a way through.
46:19And that doesn't mean that it's going to be perfect or that it's going to be what you want or how you think it should be.
46:24But just kind of trusting that beyond whatever is going on at the moment, things can improve and they do improve.
46:31I think that is it's a lost conversation that we we don't talk enough about.
46:37And I think it's incredibly courageous to have hope, faith, gratitude at a time where those things might be considered a bit Pollyanna-ish.
46:45But actually, they are incredibly powerful emotions. And if you can tap into them, that's very brave and it shows great capability.
46:54The science tells us as well is that even even the decision, OK, well, I'm not willing to stay in this situation.
47:02And I'm not willing to get stuck in the lands of negativity and awfulness and catastrophizing.
47:07I'm willing to step out into something new. And that's not an easy transition, but it's possible.
47:12So it's not about believing that it's all going to be magical.
47:15But actually, what we know is that the brain chemistry changes.
47:18So inadvertently, regardless of the outcome, you end up feeling a bit better regardless because the brain chemistry changes the minute you transition and make those decisions.
47:28And like, you know, you don't need therapy for that. You know, you don't need therapy for that.
47:32That can be a game changer as well, where you become open to the possibility.
47:36OK, like everyone else, I might have a period of struggle or I might have difficult stuff to navigate through.
47:42It's not like a surrender, but it's like a willingness to work with life rather than work against it.
47:47Yeah. Yeah. I love that. You're swimming with the waves instead of against them.
47:51And also, I think from my perspective with what I went through with my suicide attempt, that spark that I needed that you talked about self-creating happened after a really the lowest of the low moment.
48:04There was no way out apart from up for me. So I, I had that kind of, OK, I suppose I better get on with life.
48:12If I, this is what's going to happen. And then these tiny little moments when I chose compassion for myself or chose to go to know what I'm going to do a marathon in a month.
48:22I'm just going to do it. And like that, it was just that I know I didn't know at the time that my chemistry, my mind changed.
48:28The spark that I needed was there. I do not want anybody else to go through all I went through to gather that spark.
48:34And that's what we're trying to talk about is imposing, having that awareness, having that self-compassion to go, you know, I might have drunk three bottles of wine last night, but today it stops.
48:44Today is a new day. And it starts by going to the coffee shop and talking to the person there and just getting out of the house.
48:51And it could be as small as any of those things, a small step, but those tiny little sparks, those little moments of compassion, those little moments of hope.
48:59Those are really, really important to try and instigate those before you have to.
49:04Yeah. And so I want to add something to that, because I mean, most people would never say to somebody else, you know, what, you know, what they say to themselves, you know, when it comes to this kind of internal persecutory, you're shit, you're not good enough, you're a failure, blah, blah, blah.
49:20You know, most people do have these internal, very, very persecutory monologues that go on.
49:27And I think, you know, there's a really simple thing, too, is that if you notice that you get into that self attack or self deprecation or self judgment, you know, just, you know, literally interject in short circuit and just kind of say, would you say that to someone else?
49:40Like, would you, would you, would you go up to another human being and say, you're a waste of space, you're a failure, you're an idiot.
49:47You know, like most of us would think, actually, that would decimate, you know, you're going to decimate this person, you're going to annihilate them.
49:53So if you wouldn't do that to somebody else, why on earth would you think that it's okay to, to do that to yourself on a regular basis?
50:01Like, and as often you see this in therapy, like when you present that to someone, they're like, it's a really good point.
50:06No one's ever pushed back on that because it's like, actually, it's a, it's a really fair point.
50:10Why, why would that be okay?
50:12And how would that help you feel better in any way, shape or form?
50:15Yeah, it's not helpful.
50:16So it's just like, and that's an immediate shift that like any of us can do today.
50:21I think, okay, well, even if today, if that stops, that's a pretty big step forward.
50:27That's a, yeah, a massive actionable change.
50:29If we could just get everyone to start being a little bit nicer to themselves in their minds, I think it would make a huge shift.
50:35Um, I also want to ask you both what you think about this big wellbeing boom that we're experiencing at the moment and whether or not, Matt, maybe you might have felt differently in terms of the tools that were available to you.
50:45If this was all happening at that time.
50:48I do worry about this wellness boom.
50:51I think there's a, a lot of snake oil salespeople out there.
50:54You're right to be critical.
50:55And I'm very critical of it.
50:57I think it's another way of manipulating and this aggression against big pharma, um, is completely avoiding the aggression that maybe should be put towards big wellness.
51:07It's a larger industry.
51:09It's a larger industry.
51:10Wellness is worth more.
51:11Trillions.
51:12What would be helpful would be, um, more regulation, more safeguards and, and just highlighting the professionals within that world.
51:20But saying that it's a lot better, the conversation, the awareness, the stigmas that we've talked about so openly over the last, um, 10, 11 years.
51:30Well, I, when I first talked about my mental health, I wasn't, I was thinking I was the only guy that really talked about it on national telly and he was a brand new thing.
51:39Now there's so many people talking about it from all walks of life.
51:42The conversation is a lot better, which puts more pressure on the services, obviously.
51:47But yeah, I, I, I have my problems with the wellness world.
51:51I really, really do.
51:52Um, but I am very grateful that there are resources out there and podcasts out there and newspapers and magazines are taking this a bit more seriously.
52:01You know, it's a, it's a really, I mean, it's a, it's an interesting one is I, I sometimes get, it doesn't happen all the time, but I, I can have moments where people will comment and they may be a coach or whatever they're doing or a fitness person who's kind of involved in the mental health arena.
52:18And I've, I've had people like literally, you know, condemn what I've said or come in with a completely contrary.
52:26Now I'm open to discussion.
52:27I don't claim to be right on anything, but I, I, I do claim to be right when it's clinical evidence and scientific research that is like, actually, no, this is pretty solid.
52:37We, we, we, we know this and, and sometimes I'll see somebody and they've gone off and they've done a weekend course and they will with absolute authority come in and tell me that I'm wrong.
52:47And think, okay, well, I've spent 30 years in physical and mental health.
52:51I have some idea about how this works and what, what I see help and what I see not help.
52:56I think there's a real hunger in the industry where people believe that they, they should have huge platforms and that their voice should be heard and that their month training and whatever they're doing then makes them the expert.
53:09And I think what we've got is we've got a lot of expert voices.
53:12And I think that's quite dangerous because I think if I want, you know, like if I had a heart attack, it doesn't make me an expert in cardiology.
53:21It just doesn't.
53:22It just doesn't.
53:23And I think we've got a lot of really strong expert voices.
53:27It's, I think it's just becoming a bit like what you're saying, Matt, I just kind of think it's not language that you've used, but I think there's a crudeness in the industry as well.
53:37And a lot of fee and altruism and that I struggle with, that I really struggle with.
53:42And I know someone could condemn me and say, well, you use platforms and you write books and you do.
53:47And I do.
53:48But unapologetically, I do because I'm trying to do my job, but in a, you know, in a bigger arena to reach many people.
53:56But I think there is a lot of, I mean, it's a multi-billion pound industry.
54:01And I do think that if the work isn't about changing people's lives fundamentally, and I'm really strong about this.
54:07If the work isn't about offering help and changing someone's life or helping them move forward even a step, then it's not worth doing.
54:14And if it's driven by profit and it's driven by, if it becomes a business model or whatever it's meant to be, then of course it's, you know, how is that ever going to align well when it's about people, when it's about vulnerability and human struggle?
54:30This is why I do my job.
54:31This is very much, you know, why we have a wellness editor at The Independent.
54:36It's about fighting that misinformation and making health and healing more accessible, which is why we're here having this conversation.
54:42So hopefully it's helping.
54:44I also, speaking of wellness, do want to end, as I always do, on your one wellness non-negotiable.
54:50I know it's hard to pick just one, but if there were one thing that helps you get through the day, what would it be?
54:55It's really difficult because I think I'm at that stage where there's a few things, you know, and, but if I'm out and about working away, um, I really try to not go on my phone before my morning coffee.
55:10And I find that helps me then get to a point where I, if I do have my coffee and it's cooling down, I'll do five minutes of breath work or a bit of journaling.
55:22If I, and I can see night and day, how my day pans out if I grab my phone straight away.
55:28And even me not doing that, I'm putting myself first, which I never used to do, you know, so that, that's my non-negotiable.
55:35That's good. That's good advice. I like that one.
55:38I mean, I, I do have quite a few just in terms of functioning and doing the work and trying to do the work well and creating gaps in the day and stuff.
55:47I, I guess every, every event I do, I, I kind of, I try to end by the, the key premise of this, this work, I think, which is about, you know, learning to talk to yourself and treat yourself as someone who matters.
55:59And, and, and living by that, not in a wishy-washy, you know, fluffy way, but actually, you know, you talk to yourself, you treat yourself as someone who matters.
56:09And, and it's something I, you know, every day I kind of, I think if I have a mantra that I start my day with, it's just kind of, I remind myself that that's the core essence of the work that I'm trying to do.
56:19So I try and embody that in my everyday life, you know, whatever's going on or whatever the challenges are, it's just kind of, that, that has to be a non-negotiable.
56:28So I guess it's about practicing what you preach.
56:30And what you preach.
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