- 3 months ago
- #woosays
This episode of #WooSays is the second part of a special two-part series on the 47th ASEAN Summit and Related Summits under the theme “Inclusivity and Sustainability”. In this final part, Professor Emeritus Datuk Woo Wing Thye and Melisa Idris turn their focus to sustainability and what it really means for ASEAN’s future beyond 2030. How is Malaysia faring in its progress toward the Sustainable Development Goals compared to its regional peers? Can initiatives like the ASEAN Power Grid unlock the region’s green energy potential? And as the current SDG framework nears its expiry, what should sustainability look like for the next decade and beyond?
Category
🗞
NewsTranscript
00:00Hi folks, welcome back to another episode of WUSAIS.
00:14This is where we get real about the US, China, everywhere and everything in between.
00:19It's two superpowers, but really one global story.
00:22So this is part two of our special WUSAIS series on the 47th ASEAN Summit,
00:30where the twin themes of inclusivity and sustainability took center stage.
00:36So in a previous episode, we explored what inclusivity means for ASEAN,
00:42from expansion to including other members into the room.
00:47However, in this episode, we will be turning to the second theme, which is sustainability.
00:55So the question is, how is Malaysia performing on its sustainable development goals?
01:03So has the chairmanship this year moved the needle at all?
01:07That's what we will be unpacking with Professor Wu Wingtai, who joins us once again.
01:12So let's start with the big picture, Prof.
01:14Prof, how do you assess Malaysia's progress towards the SDGs, the Sustainable Development Goals,
01:21especially when we were, as we are chair this year and handing it over to the Philippines,
01:27did we move the needle at all?
01:30Well, let me start with the good news.
01:33Good news, okay.
01:34The good news is, we have put ASEAN in a position to be able to move the needle significantly.
01:45Okay.
01:45Largely because we have put in place, well, we have managed to persuade the rest of ASEAN
01:52to go along with a very ambitious undertaking.
01:56And that undertaking, which has always caused hesitation in some countries because of national security reasons.
02:07What is that?
02:10This is how the way to fight climate change.
02:14The biggest source of emission of CO2 within ASEAN is the electricity generation industry
02:24because it uses petrol and gas and coal.
02:33So we've got to turn to renewables, wind power, solar power, hydropower, and possibly even nuclear power.
02:46The fact is that it is irrational for every country to be self-sufficient in green energy
02:56because solar power in Singapore is a lot more expensive to produce than solar power in Iskandar, Malaysia.
03:06And that power in turn is more expensive than hydropower produced in Sarawak.
03:15And until we have this underwater cable from Sarawak to Singapore,
03:23that you can say we cannot take that option seriously.
03:27But we can right now, if we link up our electricity grid across ASEAN,
03:35able to tap into hydropower from Laos.
03:39And furthermore, whenever the sun does not shine over Iskandar as strongly,
03:45the sun could be shining mighty strongly in Thailand, in Cambodia, in Vietnam.
03:53So that certainly increases the reliability in the supply of green energy.
04:02So not only would it be cheaper for us to use green energy
04:07if there's an integrated regional grid because you just get it from the lowest cost producer.
04:14It also makes it more reliable because the production is now spread over multiple centers.
04:22The trouble with that is, first, there's a question of what if Thailand and Cambodia have a border dispute?
04:35And who has the hand over the regional grid?
04:40If it is a Thai chairman, he could flip that switch on Cambodia and they'll be, you know...
04:47Powerless, essentially.
04:48Powerless. Very good terms. Exactly.
04:52So that has always been this national...
04:54So that's a question of trust.
04:57And what we have done is we have now got ASEAN to agree
05:03to the establishment of an ASEAN power grid, APG.
05:12Well, also you could say for Malaysia, it's also quite a selfish reason
05:16because one of our biggest FDI is data centers.
05:21And the data centers now are voracious, guzzlers of electricity.
05:27And this might wish to have green energy doing it.
05:33So that's the technical part.
05:35The technical part is we've got to be able to integrate up the grid, the ASEAN power grid.
05:43Now, having that, why it is important to have strengthened green energy generation
05:52is because that will allow us to move away from petrol-powered cars
06:01because instead of driving a petrol-powered car, you can now have an electric car.
06:07So it is not just the use of energy by industry that is now green.
06:12The use of energy by transportation will also be green.
06:17And that is the second biggest source of CO2 emission, the cars, the motorbikes, and so forth.
06:25So that certainly will make a big difference in the emission of CO2.
06:32So on that climate action front, by being able to take the leadership,
06:40getting ASEAN to endorse, to empower the ASEAN Center for Energy,
06:47to come up with a plan of how to link things together,
06:51identify where investments need to be made for the interconnectors.
06:57Now, the next thing that has to be done is to come up with a governing structure.
07:04The grid itself is the hardware.
07:07This is where we put things up.
07:08This is how we connect it to get the cheapest.
07:10The next thing is, what's the body that's going to govern it?
07:14You know, there has to be someone who oversees the operations of the grid.
07:21And then, someone has to decide on the pricing.
07:24Okay.
07:25So the software part is equally big.
07:27Yes.
07:27But without the hardware, there's no use talking about the software.
07:31One must come first.
07:32Now, like in a computer, what needs it to work is the hardware has been in place,
07:38the software is doing well, but there's one more component you need.
07:42You need electricity going to the computer.
07:46So in this case, the analogy to the ASEAN power grid would be the funding.
07:53Without the money to build out this whole project, it's just all talk.
08:01Yes.
08:02Right?
08:02So the next thing has to do with funding.
08:06Financing.
08:07And the financing part would certainly be something that could be designed well,
08:14actually because we are able to get the deep infrastructure
08:19that will cause the economies of the region to be able to expand.
08:24So it's a good investment.
08:25There's a question there as well as to, well, who might finance this?
08:30If this is a cross-ASEAN multi-country project,
08:36which country would finance it?
08:38Would it be private sector?
08:40Would it be public sector money?
08:43Many questions come into play.
08:45And given it's such a long-term project as well, right?
08:48Well, clearly, to depend just on money from international banks,
08:57no, international development banks, World Bank, ADB, AIIB,
09:03and the government budget, that is not the cheapest way to do it.
09:09The cheapest way to do it is to be able to motivate a private sector
09:13to come in to put the money down.
09:16So how can we have X amount of public money
09:21and we are attracted 10 times of X in private funds?
09:28That would certainly allow us to scale up, right?
09:31That is a financial design called blended finance,
09:42which basically the public money is to use to cover the risk component in the investment.
09:50If the risk goes back, we pay whatever is needed, the penalty.
09:55But if it doesn't go back, then the private sector will get the return.
10:02So they will be able to invest at a lower rate than if the risk aspect had not been covered.
10:10So that could be done.
10:12And here we are in a time where both the US and China are courting us.
10:23And as a gesture of sincerity, they should put down, help us raise their funds.
10:33Wow.
10:33The Belt Road Initiative, that is what is set up.
10:38And the Chinese actually has an organization called GEICO, G-E-I-D-C-O,
10:45Global Electric Integration and Development Cooperation.
10:52GEICO.
10:54G-E-I-D-C-O.
10:56Okay, GEICO.
10:57Global Electric Integration, Development and Cooperation.
11:01Its goal is to link up the global transmission grid.
11:10Oh, wow.
11:10Yes, because the Chinese have figured out how to transport energy very cheaply
11:17because their energy sources are in Xinjiang, which is in Western China,
11:23and they'll transmit it across the whole length of China to Shanghai, Guangzhou, Shenzhen.
11:31So they've got the cheapest way to do it, and they are anxious to be able to make some money
11:39by selling the cheapest way of doing transmission.
11:43I didn't know that.
11:43I didn't know that.
11:44GEICO is an organization that my organization has been working with
11:50because they have the technology, and they have done all this incredible research
11:54of where are the sources of green energy.
12:01And now, after we've figured out, you know, some places just have more sunshine.
12:06And like the whole Vietnamese coast just has very good, reliable winds in one direction.
12:12So they have figured out all the sources of high, reliable sunshine, high, reliable wind,
12:22and where are the big water, rivers that could have that.
12:27Right.
12:27They actually have the beginning of a global plan to link all of this up.
12:34Should ASEAN, for the ASEAN power grid, accept the help of China?
12:42We'll accept it from China and the United States.
12:45Okay.
12:45And we'll buy equipment from the United States or China.
12:49If the US is willing to, you know, continue its past legacy of foreign aid,
12:57I mean, we're starting it because Donald Trump just closed at that time.
13:02Cut funding.
13:03And if they do it, it's like if Australia should certainly be interested,
13:10Australia will be the biggest exporter of sunshine to Malaysia.
13:14We have sunshine, but we also got a lot of clouds.
13:17Yes.
13:18You see, our sunshine is less bright.
13:20I like that.
13:22Exporter of sunshine.
13:23Yeah.
13:23You know, so we don't have to just think of sunshine in Australia as Bondi Beach,
13:30but of the desert of Australia.
13:34I'm actually still in awe, in kind of shock and awe about the fact that China is thinking
13:41about connecting a global grid when we're still struggling to maybe have a regional,
13:48maybe plot out the regional grid.
13:50Imagine that.
13:51No, but what it really shows is that the capacity for long-range thinking in China.
13:57Yeah.
13:58Because they see what would be the optimal, the cheapest arrangement for the whole world.
14:04Okay.
14:05You start from there, even though it's only one corner of the world where they are.
14:09You know, it's like, if we can tell everybody that there's all this, if we cut the cost,
14:15There are goodies to be shared.
14:16And one day, they were listening to that.
14:20It's a good idea to share in the goodies.
14:23Absolutely.
14:24So, that is certainly one aspect that has also been responsible for the successful rise in China.
14:32Okay.
14:32So, that's the good news part is on APG.
14:35We are able to, for the ASEAN level.
14:37I was just about to say, so that was the good news about SDGs, ASEAN Power Grid.
14:42How about...
14:43Not so good news.
14:43Not so good news is SDGs are more than climate action.
14:48Okay.
14:49It's also biodiversity protection.
14:52You know, you could have no climate change, but still wipe out species on a large scale
14:59because of pollution, for example, and just mindless deforestation or the use of unsustainable
15:09agricultural tactics.
15:12And it's just like, you could be very rich, but that could be a highly unequal society.
15:18So, you have some very rich people, but you have a bunch of very poor who have very short,
15:26miserable lives.
15:27So, SDGs are much broader than just climate action.
15:31So, there's good news of the climate action, but not so good news on all the other indicators
15:37in the world.
15:38We are not on track, the world as a whole, to achieve any of the SDGs.
15:44And in the case of Malaysia, my organization publishes an annual score which gives you the
15:57level of SDG achievement in each country of the world.
16:01Oh, wow.
16:02So, we call that the SDG index.
16:04That has become the standard for the world because the SDG index is cited in 40% of the
16:15reports submitted under the nationally determined contributions of each country.
16:23Each country submits a report to the UN and 40% of them cite this.
16:27Let me tell you this, the Malaysia score on the overall ranking on SDGs has been going up.
16:36Like in 2024, we were roughly 64 in over 100 and now we are around 69 over 100.
16:45So, that's definitely progress.
16:48That is like being happy by having low expectations.
16:52Because we clearly can go a lot faster.
16:55I'll tell you why.
16:57Because if you look at our rank, in 2020, we ranked number 60 out of 167 countries.
17:06But we have been falling every year since.
17:10By 2023 at the end of COVID, we had fallen to 78 in the world out of the 167 countries.
17:18And the latest report that came up in June 2025, we have fallen to 84.
17:26So, we have gone from rank 60 in 2020 to 84 in 2025.
17:36Wow.
17:37Other countries are doing so much better.
17:38Let's look at Indonesia.
17:39Indonesia started at 101 in 2021, the rank.
17:43101 out of 166 countries.
17:45Today, they are number 77.
17:50Wow.
17:51Brother has overtaken our day.
17:52What has Abang done to achieve so much progress?
17:56And then, we look upwards to Thailand, which has more political instability than what we went through between, you know, the fall between Najib and Anwar.
18:12Right.
18:12The change of government.
18:13We have five governments in five years.
18:16And so, the Thais had more.
18:18Yes.
18:19They beat us.
18:20They beat us.
18:21Yeah.
18:21And their score was, they rank 41 in 2020.
18:27They are 43 today.
18:29Are they 43?
18:30So, basically, they maintain their rank.
18:32Okay.
18:32Okay.
18:33So...
18:33But they're doing so much better than the rest of us.
18:36Yeah.
18:36Yeah.
18:36And the puzzle, the puzzle is that we are twice as rich as Abang Indonesia.
18:42Oh, really?
18:43On GDP per capita.
18:44You mean GDP per capita.
18:45Okay.
18:46Okay.
18:46GDP per capita.
18:46I understand.
18:47We certainly are.
18:48And we are at least 25% richer than the Thais.
18:52But also...
18:52But somehow, we have better material comfort.
18:57But our material comfort comes with damaging the natural environment.
19:02So, clearly, this government, if you look at it, Malaysians are actually very sensitive
19:08about the environment.
19:09We are very proud that the tigers still survive.
19:13Yes.
19:13We are very sad that the rhino has disappeared from Sabah and Sarawak.
19:19We vow not to repeat that.
19:21But somehow, we are not making the right progress.
19:24Right.
19:24So, that is the unfortunate part is that our programs have not been as effective and possible
19:34we need to think about the implementation, how to put it into the KPI of the civil service.
19:41That makes me quite sad to think that we are not doing as much as we could or not progressing
19:49as much as...
19:50Especially since you brought up the Abang overtaking.
19:53So, brother is doing very well.
19:54Indonesia is doing very well.
19:55Well, we want our neighbors to do well.
19:56We do.
19:56But we want to do well along with them.
19:59Absolutely.
20:00We also want to prosper our neighbors.
20:03But we also want to prosper as well.
20:06So, talk to me about what comes next.
20:08Because with the SDGs, correct me if I'm wrong, it's until 2030.
20:14Well, at least the framework is.
20:16So, we don't have much time left.
20:19And also, is there a vision for beyond 2030?
20:24In 2027, three years before it, there will be a global summit to talk about should we abandon it?
20:36Should we move on to something new?
20:40Or should we just recognize that protecting the environment is a long-term activity?
20:48That's because it's such a hard thing to do.
20:52And it was unrealistic to give it a program of 15 years.
20:57It's like, are you ready to be an engineer after going to school for 15 years from the age of six?
21:04Clearly not.
21:05It has to be an ongoing, long-term, lifelong, right?
21:09So, we hope, or my prediction is that we will not abandon the SDGs,
21:17despite Donald Trump being at war with that whole idea.
21:23Is that him?
21:23Oh, yes.
21:25U.S. government agencies cannot use the word climate change
21:28because Donald Trump had told the U.S.,
21:32told the General Assembly in September this year that climate change is a hoax.
21:38I remember that.
21:39The thing that is true is his claim is a hoax.
21:43Right?
21:44The truth is the rest of the world will continue with it.
21:48Like, you look at the Europeans, there's no wavering of their decarbonisation efforts.
21:55And in Malaysia, has anybody gone around claiming it's a hoax?
22:00No.
22:00That's not what our scientists tell us.
22:04So, the world will definitely continue with it.
22:06I think we will have possibly a more efficient restatement of it and extend it to, let's say, 2050.
22:17That will be our mid-century goal.
22:20What do you mean efficient restatement of it?
22:23In what way?
22:23Because we have set up certain targets, but now we've practiced, we may have better targets.
22:32Okay, I see.
22:33Rather than the ones we have chosen.
22:35Right.
22:35It's just like the NEP.
22:36NEP had targets set in 1970, but now, after operations of NEP for over 50 years,
22:45we know what are the better targets and better instruments and so forth.
22:51So, you can't just, you know, even your car needs to be updated, to be changed.
22:57Is the UN still the right body to lead on sustainable development goals?
23:06Or should it be each country for itself?
23:10Do SDGs need a leader, a champion, a kind of driver, essentially?
23:18Well, it's largely because the threat of biodiversity extinction is a global challenge.
23:27We are linked to the food chain across the globe.
23:34Because we are linked that way, it has a global effort.
23:36It knows no boundaries, right?
23:38No country boundaries.
23:39Only one global body with legitimacy.
23:43That's the United Nations.
23:45You cannot name a second organization with global legitimacy.
23:50Even the US has not kicked out the UN from New York because it is still very useful for many things.
23:58If there is another terrorist attack on the US, it will need the support of the United Nations to go ahead.
24:07That was why in 2001, the US paid up its late payment of dues to the UN because it needed the UN endorsement to go and invade Afghanistan and so forth.
24:21So, even Donald Trump is not so foolish to withdraw from the UN.
24:27So, the UN is an indispensable body just like ASEAN is.
24:32It is coherent, it is coherent, but it is totally indispensable.
24:38Now, this comes back to we shouldn't be...
24:45While we are concerned about moving faster because of a decline in the score, we should also understand that the absolute score is very important, not just the ranking.
24:59The ranking is how much we... how fast we run compared to our partners.
25:06Okay.
25:07It's because the world now really faces the threat that everyone's score will go down.
25:14Right.
25:14Like if the US goes through with abandoning fighting climate change, it will cause damage in the rest of the world.
25:26And worse yet, if ASEAN centrality is not able to build a coalition that is able to influence the action of US and China,
25:45a global conflict will see all of us going down the drain.
25:49Basically, that's the SDG score of everybody collapsing.
25:53So, while we know what are the things we've got to do to do faster, the inclusivity part we talked about in a previous episode is extremely important to ensuring sustainability.
26:12Right.
26:12The two of them come as a package.
26:14Yes, it's twins.
26:16These twins, it's like in order for the global progress to occur, we need the whole package of society, environment, and economy to have progress.
26:34Progress on society and economy, that's the inclusivity part.
26:39But progress on the environmental part is the sustainability part.
26:44And the two are mutually reinforcing.
26:50So, we've got to be able to grow ASEAN, to be in partnership with the Europeans, the Canadians, the Australians, Japan, Korea,
27:04to have to keep the UN still being relevant.
27:11And so, for true sustainability, we need this club of middle powers.
27:18This club of middle powers of Europe, Canada, Korea, Japan, Australia, New Zealand, plus us.
27:29Because of us, we are going to catch up and be as rich as the Europeans.
27:34And when we are as rich as the Europeans, combined, we are twice the size of the US, more than twice the size of China.
27:41They have to join us.
27:43And that is when true peace will come.
27:45Right.
27:45So, Malaysia's growth is not just reaching across the ocean to accept Chile as a member of ASEAN, but we want to work with the EU.
27:59Right.
28:00That is what the inclusivity for sustainability that we have to aim for.
28:06Rally together and make sure that everyone is working towards a similar goal.
28:11Prof. Wu, thank you so much for that.
28:13I think that wraps up this episode of Wu Says, where we have focused on sustainability as a two-part series.
28:20I hope you enjoyed that.
28:21We will see you in the next episode.
28:23Take care.
28:24Bye-bye.
28:24Bye-bye.
Comments