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We’re currently living through a global transition, from unipolar dominance to multipolar uncertainty. Can Malaysia and ASEAN turn this flux into a strategic advantage? On this episode of #ConsiderThis Melisa Idris speaks to YB Liew Chin Tong, Deputy Minister of the Ministry of Investment, Trade and Industry about what this moment means for Malaysia's economic and strategic future.
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00:00Hello and good evening. I'm Melissa Idris. I'm reporting to you from the ASEAN Summit here at
00:27Kuala Lumpur Convention Centre, where Malaysia is in the spotlight as Chair of ASEAN this year.
00:34We're leading the block through a pivotal year, one that has had many challenges in the global economic order.
00:43Joining me now to discuss this year further is YB Liu Cintong, who is Deputy Minister of the Ministry of Investment, Trade and Industry.
00:52YB Liu, thank you so much for being on the show with me today. So it has been quite a robust summit.
01:00I've never seen so many world leaders gathered in one space in Malaysia, not to mention international media as well.
01:08So talk to me a little bit about the sheer nature and size of this ASEAN Summit,
01:13particularly because with so many moving parts, so many different events happening on the sidelines, it's easy to get drowned out by the noise.
01:22This is the largest ever ASEAN Summit. You have the President of the United States, Chairman of G20, President of South Africa.
01:33You have the Chairman of BRICS, President of Brazil. And you have the United Nations Secretary General.
01:42You have the President of the European Council. So this is the largest collection of leaders around the world coming to ASEAN.
01:53And of course, you also have the Chinese Premier, right? So you think about what has been displayed in Kuala Lumpur.
02:04It is a sign of Kuala Lumpur coming together, bringing everyone together.
02:13But it's also a sign of ASEAN trying to adapt and potentially shaping a multi-polar world.
02:20Yes.
02:21So ASEAN may not be the most important region, the most advanced in technology or the richest in society.
02:31But in a world that sees so much tension, ASEAN is the convener.
02:37ASEAN is able to convene and bringing people together.
02:42And it is able to convene in part because ASEAN has been trying to be a convener since the early 90s.
02:49So all these conferences or summits, say EAS, the structure was established in the early 90s.
03:00And it is now very useful and very important for our time.
03:05Absolutely. I mean, I was just thinking that the kind of collection of leaders that we have attending the summit this year
03:12is really a reflection of the multi-polar world that we live in currently.
03:17And it's an opportune time to take a look at this.
03:20So when you look at the people who are in the room, the BRICS economies, the ASEAN plus three economies,
03:30the East Asia economies, when you think about that and the opportunity it represents,
03:35what does it speak to you about the shift in the global economic order?
03:39Where are we looking for in terms of multilateral friends in the economy, global economy?
03:47The world used to be very US-centered.
03:51Correct.
03:51So we are now moving from a US-led unipolar world to potentially a multipolar world.
04:01Of course, in between, there is this US-China geopolitical tension.
04:06So how do we, as ASEAN, and also many of our partners in Europe, in Latin America, in Africa,
04:14how do we come together and say that between McDonald's and dim sum,
04:21there are still dao, nasi lemak, sushi, and many other, tong yam.
04:26There's so much in Petuan.
04:28And how do we together accept that the end of a unipolar world shouldn't be ending with a G2 competition.
04:40It should be a multipolar world in which technology, money, capital, people of different regions
04:56are able to communicate, able to work together, able to shape the world
05:02so that the world is not just being seen as a world between US and China.
05:08I know that, first of all, the analogy using food really speaks to me.
05:13So I definitely appreciate that.
05:15But when you say that, and I appreciate you saying that in the setting of the fact
05:20that we have just signed an agreement on reciprocal trade with the US here at the ASEAN Summit.
05:26When you speak about the potential for global trade and mutual economic prosperity
05:35between the people who are here, the heads of governments who are here at ASEAN,
05:40there was so much emphasis on the US-Malaysia bilateral trade.
05:45Talk to me a little bit about that.
05:47Are we focusing on the wrong thing?
05:49Are we amplifying only one tiny part of what could be a potential for economic prosperity for all?
06:00So for the last 80 years since the end of the Second World War,
06:06starting with Japan and Germany,
06:10and followed by other Asian societies or Asian countries
06:15and European economies,
06:18Asia and Europe grew rich by exporting to the United States.
06:25And even until today,
06:27Japan still export a lot to the United States.
06:31Korea still export a lot to the United States,
06:34not to mention China,
06:35and not to mention Southeast Asia.
06:37So the world since the end of the Second World War
06:41is one that is leading to the United States
06:45and seeing the United States as the consumer of the last resort
06:48and in many instances, consumer of the first resort.
06:51Yes.
06:52So to unwind that is tough.
06:55To unwind that 80-year economic order is not easy.
07:00It required us to rethink about our society
07:04and how we organize our own society,
07:07how Asian countries collectively build a stronger middle class among our meats,
07:13how Europe can create a stronger consumer base
07:17so that all of us do not have to rely on just selling to the US.
07:23And that is very difficult.
07:24That takes 5, 10, 15, 20 years to pivot.
07:27So undoubtedly, we will still have to deal with the US.
07:34I mean, if someone say that we don't need the US anymore,
07:39that I think is also far-fetched for now.
07:43But we are working very hard.
07:45Prime Minister Anandar Ibrahim is working very hard
07:47to ensure that we diversify our relationship.
07:51We build very deep global sub-relationship
07:58that is not necessarily one way,
08:01but a lot more mutual help, mutual technological improvement.
08:08If you see the speeches by Prime Minister Anandar and President Lula,
08:14you'll see that sense of solidarity between global sub-countries.
08:20And that is something that we are working on,
08:22but you will not see the fruit tomorrow.
08:25It will take years to pivot and change the way we structure a society.
08:31And we have to here build a middle class here.
08:36Even if we do not do so,
08:38let's say if ASEAN countries are still continuing the same model
08:41where we are only thinking of exporting to the US,
08:44and in many ways we suppress wages in order to export cheaper,
08:49we will end up having to deal with a lot of Gen Z protests.
08:53And we will have to face with a situation
08:57where people are growing old without getting rich.
09:01So we are lucky now in Southeast Asia
09:04that most of the Southeast Asian economies
09:07have a very young population compared to Japan, Korea and China.
09:12But we have to ensure that we get rich before we get old
09:16in the next 20 years.
09:18Well, you know, I really liked that.
09:20So you made a speech in the ASEAN economic community
09:23council recently, and you said precisely that,
09:27and it really stuck with me.
09:28You said, if I may quote you to yourself,
09:31how to defensively prevent Gen Z protests
09:34by providing more meaningful jobs and better pay
09:36and a sense of upward social mobility.
09:38And that objective should guide all our economic policies.
09:44It resonated so much with me because it really is.
09:48I mean, you look around the global recent affairs
09:52that there's so many Gen Z protests recently,
09:55and they are unhappy with the state of affairs of each country.
10:01When you think about how that should guide our economic policy,
10:05and Timor-Leste joining ASEAN as the 11th country
10:08has probably one of the youngest populations of the bloc.
10:11What is it that ASEAN really needs to focus on
10:15if we pay attention to the next generation
10:18and ensuring that there is a broader social compact to ASEAN
10:26beyond mutual economic benefit?
10:29Yeah, so I think ASEAN has to build some technology.
10:33We may not be building the highest technology,
10:37but we must do a lot more so that we are the indispensable middle
10:41in global technological roadmap, or technological map.
10:46ASEAN.
10:46ASEAN.
10:47You think about this.
10:48A master builder in technology?
10:50No, I mean, let's take semiconductor.
10:54Okay.
10:54There was a period of time after China joined WTO in 2001,
11:02there was a period of time that there were corporations
11:06all invested in China,
11:08and there was no significant use of the supply chain in this region.
11:14But companies are now thinking of diversification
11:17because of geopolitical concern,
11:19because of the concern of potential war,
11:21and also because of climate change, because of other crisis,
11:25pandemic as well.
11:27So in that sort of context,
11:31when corporations look at the supply chain,
11:36particularly in semiconductor,
11:38in Malaysia, Singapore, and Vietnam,
11:41they are all surprised.
11:43I met so many foreign investors, foreign companies.
11:47They were very surprised that the combined supply chain
11:52in semiconductor among Malaysia, Singapore, and Vietnam
11:57is so comprehensive and sophisticated.
11:59Not at the highest level, but very significant.
12:03To the extent that Malaysia produces
12:05almost 30% to one-third of global automotive chips.
12:11Wow, so what does that reflect to them
12:15about how comprehensive the system is?
12:18Because their attention used to be just on China.
12:20Now they are looking for alternative.
12:23The world doesn't have that many areas
12:25or regions or countries
12:27that have significant presence
12:29of a deep semiconductor supply chain.
12:33You have a bit in Mexico,
12:34you have a bit in Poland,
12:36in some part of Eastern Europe,
12:39Eastern European countries.
12:40India is trying,
12:43but nowhere else.
12:45The choices of diversification are just these places.
12:49Of course, this is semiconductor.
12:51But likewise, many other industries,
12:54we do have some capability
12:57and we just need to do more
12:59and not just producing,
13:02but we must innovate as well.
13:04And innovation, we shouldn't be thinking of
13:06suddenly innovating the top technology.
13:08We should be thinking of middle tech
13:11and middle technology
13:13that is part of global supply chain,
13:15but also middle technology
13:16that can solve daily challenges
13:18of our own people,
13:21including medical,
13:22including better living conditions,
13:25and not just our people,
13:26but the bottom billions of world's population.
13:29So if we can think about that,
13:31then Brazil, Malaysia, India, South Africa,
13:35our limited but significant research capability
13:39can come together to create new things for the region.
13:43And this is important
13:44because you cannot just say that,
13:45okay, pay higher,
13:46but you don't innovate.
13:48So we need to innovate,
13:50we need to create new things,
13:52we need to create new products,
13:53new technology,
13:54new processes
13:54in order to pay people better.
13:57But paying people better is also important
13:58because otherwise,
14:00we will not be able to create a middle class.
14:02And if we cannot create a middle class,
14:04our people will continue to suffer
14:07and there will be Gen Z protests.
14:09Well, you talked about it
14:10almost like it's a single market,
14:15but we all know ASEAN is not that.
14:17It's not the single market like an EU.
14:19When you think about this type of cooperation,
14:22is ASEAN the right driver?
14:23Is ASEAN as a block,
14:26the right driver to push this forward?
14:29Or is this a pipe dream
14:32that we are thinking about this economic integration,
14:35technological mutual cooperation?
14:39Is it just optics or can it be a reality?
14:43It can be a reality
14:44if we start working together,
14:46for example, ASEAN Power Grid.
14:48Okay.
14:49This year, we have signed
14:51significant MOU on ASEAN Power Grid
14:54and particularly emphasising
14:55on a blended financing mechanism
14:59so that it is not just based on off-taking model.
15:02It is not just that,
15:03oh, I buy from you
15:04and you generate electricity.
15:07But it is really about bringing
15:10the Asian Development Bank,
15:13bringing the World Bank,
15:14bringing multilateral financial institutions
15:18to come together,
15:19together with the financial market in ASEAN
15:22so that we can really think about creating electricity,
15:27not just for the richer societies in ASEAN,
15:31but also more for the rural places,
15:35the cities in, let's say, Laos.
15:39Laos generates electricity,
15:40but Laos doesn't have enough electricity for their own use.
15:43So how do we bridge the gap?
15:46How do we ensure that in 20 years' time,
15:49Laos becomes a richer society
15:50or at least has a significant middle class?
15:53Vietnam in 20 years' time has a big middle class.
15:56Let's say in 20 years' time,
15:57Indonesia becomes so much bigger
15:59with a significant middle class
16:01because ultimately,
16:03we now have 680 million population in ASEAN.
16:06680 million or 700 million or 800 million
16:10of poor people doesn't make a difference.
16:13But let's say out of the 800 million populations
16:16in 20 years' time,
16:16we have 300 million who are living a middle class life,
16:20who consume.
16:22Then we are a market.
16:23We are a market for ourselves,
16:24for our companies,
16:25but also a market for European exporters,
16:29American exporters,
16:30for exporters from elsewhere.
16:32But to do so,
16:34economic integration is not just about free trade deals.
16:39Economic integration is really about
16:41creating capability here
16:43and creating ASEAN supply chain,
16:49strengthening the ASEAN supply chain.
16:51So Tan Sri Nasi Razab
16:52pushed the idea of ASEAN business entities.
16:55Which was in the budget.
16:56Yeah, which was in the budget.
16:58And ultimately,
16:59we want to see not just ASEAN companies
17:03operating more in more than three countries in ASEAN.
17:06We want to see the emergence of ASEAN multinationals.
17:11Because in our mindset,
17:12in Malaysia, in Singapore,
17:14and most part of Southeast Asia,
17:15we always think that
17:16multinationals are foreign.
17:19And technology comes from foreign companies.
17:21We have not actually thought of
17:25having our own companies
17:27becoming a mini Huawei,
17:29becoming a mini TSMC,
17:31becoming a mini Samsung.
17:33They may not be as big,
17:35they may not be doing the same thing,
17:36but they hopefully
17:38will be able to do something
17:40important, new, and significant.
17:42Why is it that we don't think of
17:45multinationals as something local?
17:47It's always like a foreign...
17:48Is that a colonialized mindset that we...
17:51It could be.
17:52Because we kept thinking that
17:53only foreign companies has technology,
17:56and we don't have.
17:58Only foreign companies are
18:00big, and ours are small.
18:02So when we talk about our own companies,
18:05we talk about our own companies as SMEs.
18:07And we talk about foreign companies
18:10as big companies.
18:12But in actual fact,
18:13if you look at the history
18:14of some of the Japanese,
18:16Korean, and Chinese companies,
18:17including Taiwanese companies,
18:19they emerged out of nothing.
18:22So TSMC emerged out of
18:23very little capability,
18:26but with a lot of government help,
18:28and also with clear directions,
18:30and with opportune time.
18:33So they emerged.
18:34Samsung, Huawei, BYD.
18:36So these are all examples
18:38of Asian corporations
18:40emerging almost out of nothing.
18:43So if we think about ASEAN,
18:46we think about Malaysian companies,
18:47what we should do is to say that
18:49we welcome foreign investment.
18:52We welcome foreign transfer of technology.
18:56We welcome long-term partnerships
18:57with foreign companies.
18:59But at the same time,
19:00we want to tell our investors,
19:03help us to grow our companies
19:05so that one day,
19:06they become significant players
19:08around the world.
19:09The potential is limitless.
19:11In the time that we do have left,
19:14I want to shift the focus a little bit
19:15to talk about our newest member of ASEAN,
19:19the 11th member of ASEAN,
19:20Timor-Leste.
19:21And Timor-Leste is particularly interesting
19:23because of its history,
19:24but also it speaks to the values of ASEAN
19:28to expand this inclusiveness
19:30of our neighbourhood, so to speak.
19:34Talk to me about what you see
19:36in terms of the future of ASEAN
19:39being an 11-member bloc now.
19:41I was very touched.
19:45I was seated three rows behind Prime Minister Anwar
19:49and watching Sanana Guzmall's speech,
19:55watching the whole ceremony.
19:57I was very touched.
19:58I was touched because of the historical experience
20:03of Timor-Leste
20:04and how, in a way,
20:08with Timor-Leste joining,
20:12Southeast Asia,
20:13which was previously colonies
20:15of different colonizers,
20:19now coming together
20:20as one community of nation-states.
20:24The history of Timor-Leste
20:26was particularly interesting,
20:28especially in the context
20:29of who were seated next to Prime Minister Anwar
20:32from where I was seated.
20:35I saw next to Prime Minister Anwar
20:37it was President Lula
20:39and next to President Lula
20:41it was the President of the European Council,
20:46His Excellency Antonio Costa,
20:50who was former Prime Minister of Portugal.
20:54Brazil was a Portuguese-speaking community
20:58or country.
20:58and both of them know
21:02Ramahota and also Ramahota
21:08and Zanad Guzmall
21:10since days back.
21:13Why Timor-Leste became a challenge for the region?
21:18It's because in 1974,
21:21Portuguese people
21:23overthrown their authoritarian government
21:26in what was called
21:28the Carnation Revolution.
21:31And the central concern
21:33of the Carnation Revolution
21:34was to oppose
21:36Portugal's involvement
21:38in colonial wars
21:40in Africa.
21:42Right.
21:42So, with the ongoing new government
21:46and the ongoing revolution
21:48in Portugal,
21:50in 1975,
21:51Portugal gave up Timor-Leste
21:54and allowed Timor-Leste
21:55to gain independence,
21:57which was objected by Indonesia.
22:00So that started a whole period of time,
22:03of very difficult time
22:04until 2000,
22:06year 2000.
22:08President Prabowo
22:11was seated
22:12among
22:13the audience
22:15and President Prabowo
22:16was
22:17involved
22:18from the Indonesian side
22:21in the conflict.
22:24So,
22:24Prime Minister Anwar
22:25used the word
22:26reconciliation
22:27with deep meaning
22:29that
22:30we were all stuck
22:33in colonial history
22:34but we are now
22:35coming together
22:36as a community
22:38of nation-state,
22:39reconciled with our past
22:41and moving forward.
22:43It's very meaningful
22:44having those collections
22:47of world leaders
22:48in the same room
22:49as we welcome
22:51Timor-Leste
22:52into ASEAN.
22:53In the time
22:54that we have left,
22:55I do want to ask you
22:56where you think
22:58the block is headed
23:00because we still have
23:01two months
23:02in our chairmanship.
23:04I think a lot of people
23:05think that we are
23:06handing it over
23:07to the Philippines
23:07straight away
23:08but we still have some time.
23:10Is there still time
23:11to make sure
23:12that the momentum
23:13we've created
23:14throughout the year
23:15continues
23:16and where do you see,
23:18are you hopeful
23:19that the momentum
23:20will continue
23:20as the Philippines
23:21takes over chairmanship?
23:22I spend a lot of time
23:24with my counterparts
23:25from the Philippines,
23:28my counterparts
23:29at my level.
23:30We've spent a lot of time
23:32since early this year
23:33talking about
23:34how we can continue
23:36what we do in Malaysia
23:38in constant consultation
23:41with them
23:42so that some of
23:43these initiatives
23:44that started in Malaysia
23:45in 2025
23:47can be continued
23:49in 2026
23:50and beyond.
23:52We want to see
23:53a more coherent
23:54and consistent ASEAN
23:55and one of
23:57the ways to do it
23:58is to really
23:59ensure continuity.
24:01So as far as
24:02economics are concerned
24:03we are in
24:04close consultation
24:05with the Philippines
24:06from day one
24:08and of course
24:09ASEAN is not structured
24:10in such a way
24:11that chairmanship
24:12you can decide
24:13on everything.
24:13you have to work
24:15in a very collegial
24:16relationship
24:17with other member states
24:19so this year
24:20I chair the ASEAN
24:21Joe Economic Task Force
24:22together with
24:23my Indonesian counterpart
24:24and we also work
24:25very closely
24:26with our ASEAN partners
24:28and particularly
24:29with colleagues
24:30from the Philippines.
24:32These are basically
24:33relationships
24:35that we have built
24:35at multiple levels.
24:37Prime Minister Anwar
24:38spent a lot of time
24:39with leaders
24:41from ASEAN
24:41consulting them
24:43and at Tunggu Zafro's
24:45level, at Minister Mahassan's
24:48level, at our level
24:49and at our official's level
24:51we have this deep sense
24:53of camaraderie
24:55among us
24:56and we think that
24:57in this changing
24:59global order
25:00we have a role
25:01and we have a historic role
25:02to play to ensure
25:04that ASEAN matters
25:05and ASEAN
25:06comes together
25:07stronger
25:08and ASEAN can
25:10create a more
25:11prosperous society
25:12in the years
25:13to come
25:13for our people.
25:14Is there that
25:15shared camaraderie?
25:16Is there that
25:17shared vision
25:17particularly amongst
25:19the people
25:19who are pushing
25:21through this agenda
25:22doing the work
25:23going for the meetings
25:24having those
25:24hours long
25:26of discussion
25:27is there this
25:28collective mindset
25:30that ASEAN
25:31can be
25:32ASEAN
25:33ASEAN
25:33can be
25:34so to speak?
25:34I believe so.
25:35I believe so.
25:36I believe that
25:36officials,
25:38ministers
25:39and particularly
25:40Prime Minister Anwar
25:41and the ASEAN leaders
25:42why are they
25:43spending so much time?
25:45Because they all
25:45realise that
25:46the world has
25:47changed
25:47and in the words
25:49of Prime Minister
25:51Lawrence Wong
25:52there's no
25:53going back
25:53there's no
25:54going back
25:55to the
25:55world order
25:56that we are
25:57so used to
25:59and we are now
26:00having to find
26:02new paths
26:03and this moment
26:05in history
26:06is important
26:08and I think
26:09we all realise it
26:09people in the room
26:11people that we
26:13talk to
26:13we all realise
26:15that we are
26:16entering into
26:17a new phase
26:18of history
26:19in the world
26:20we do not know
26:22which way
26:23it will take
26:23but
26:24as Prime Minister
26:26Anwar say
26:26priority is to
26:28ensure that
26:28we have a
26:29peaceful ASEAN
26:30and with a
26:31peaceful ASEAN
26:32we want to build
26:33our capability
26:34we want to build
26:34strength
26:35we want to build
26:36a prosperous society
26:37I think that
26:38the public feels it too
26:40that the
26:40ground has shifted
26:43and we're not
26:44quite sure
26:44but it's wonderful
26:45to hear that
26:46there is
26:47an opportunity
26:48to be seized
26:49at this point in time
26:50and you know
26:51it's Malaysia's
26:52I guess
26:54mantle to pick up
26:55as chair of ASEAN
26:57YB thank you so much
26:58for being on the show
26:59with me today
26:59it's been such a pleasure
27:00to speak to you
27:01and thank you for the
27:02almost history
27:03lesson
27:03of our
27:04newest
27:05ASEAN member
27:06thank you
27:07for your time
27:07thank you
27:08Melissa
27:08I'm Melissa
27:09Idris signing off
27:10for the evening
27:10thanks so much
27:11for watching
27:12good night
27:12thank you
27:18I'll see you next time
27:19you
27:20I'll see you next time
27:20and
27:21thank you
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