- 3 weeks ago
- #considerthis
Few get access to ASEAN’s closed-door sessions but Datuk Professor Dr Faiz Abdullah was in the room for the ASEAN-US Summit with US President Donald Trump and Prime Minister Anwar Ibrahim. On this episode of #ConsiderThis Melisa Idris asks the Chairperson of the Institute of Strategic & International Studies (ISIS Malaysia) for a rare insider account of Malaysia’s chairmanship of ASEAN.
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00:00Music
00:20I'm reporting from the ASEAN Summit here at the KL Convention Centre
00:25where Malaysia is in the spotlight as Chair of the Block
00:29Now joining me on the show is Datuk Professor Dr Mahmoud Faiz Abdullah
00:34Chairperson of the Institute of Strategic and International Studies
00:38better known as ISIS Malaysia
00:40Prof. Faiz, thank you so much for taking time
00:42I know it's been a very busy few days running up and down
00:45and attending all the related events and summits happening concurrently
00:50but there are a few that I wanted to focus on in our conversation today
00:55Let's talk about the KL Peace Accord that was signed between Thailand and Cambodia
01:01and I think this ASEAN Summit this time around is particularly special
01:05because we have these two countries who have had decades of border disputes and border conflicts
01:14and sitting together at a table signing a ceasefire agreement presided over by our Prime Minister Anwar Ibrahim
01:23and the US President Donald Trump
01:25Talk to me a little bit about why this was quite a special moment
01:30and a little bit about the role of Washington and Kuala Lumpur in this Peace Accord
01:36Sure, you hit it right on the head that it is a momentous occasion
01:42For two reasons
01:44As you say, you are not looking at a conflict that erupted overnight or just recently
01:51It is long in the making.
01:55It could take any slightest incident to trigger that conflagration
02:01and so it happened a couple of months ago
02:04So even before we jump into talking about the peace deal
02:07we have to go back to the initial stages when it happened
02:10and what were the immediate responses of ASEAN member states
02:15and in this case, you know, Malaysia being chair for ASEAN 2025
02:22So the immediate thing that was done was Prime Minister Anwar Ibrahim
02:28Well, he sure knows how to work the phones basically
02:31Yeah, so it was a case of phone diplomacy
02:34Back and forth, back and forth
02:37Various parties, you know, the parties that were involved in the conflict
02:41as well as other parties
02:43All that came into a sort of a simmering pot
02:50Yeah, it could either boil over or it could cool down
02:54So what happens is that under this particular style of diplomacy
03:00We managed to get the whole cinema thing
03:02And the following day, we got the parties here to agree to a ceasefire
03:06And I think it's important for people to differentiate between a peace deal and a ceasefire
03:12I mean, not being pedantic here, but it's important
03:15And because people will say, why, you know, in a week's time they were fighting again
03:19That's why it was just called a ceasefire
03:21You know, you need certain excuses for one or the other party
03:25for things to start all over again
03:27But I think on point, on balance, it was a pretty good ceasefire
03:31Which eventually, you know, accumulated to the process where there's going to be a serious resolution
03:38To come to a peace deal
03:40And as you mentioned, the Kuala Lumpur Peace Accord
03:43That was signed, yeah, and will become historical was part of it
03:47I have to mention also the fact that it was indeed significant that President Trump was also here
03:53Right
03:54And I would reckon it this way
03:57Malaysia provided through Anwar Ibrahim's leadership
04:00A neutral place for ASEAN
04:03Yes, that is very important.
04:05Because you couldn't have it in any other place
04:09And also geographically most proximate is Malaysia
04:12And also politically the right one because we are the chair
04:16And the case of the United States
04:20They provided, what I would say, the economic muscle
04:24The pressure
04:25Yeah, okay.
04:26To be fair, it's a trade deal offer
04:29And no trade deals unless, you know, the guns become silent
04:33Basically that's what it is
04:34Got it
04:35Sometimes you need pressure to get things going
04:37Yes
04:38So basically you have that balance
04:40So you use the term phone diplomacy
04:43Which I thought was quite interesting
04:44You know, working the phones
04:46Yes
04:47This was really quite a test of Anwar Ibrahim's leadership
04:53And ASEAN's chairmanship
04:57So when you think about the facts that Anwar Ibrahim had to resort to
05:02Leader to leader intervention
05:04Does that, what does that tell you about the weaknesses within ASEAN
05:09Lacking the institutional capacity to deal with any conflict between its member states?
05:16I don't think so, respectfully
05:19I don't think it's a weakness at all
05:21As you know, there is a process and there is the outcome
05:26Sometimes people tend to say, you know, they downplay the importance of process
05:32But the process is very important.
05:34Important
05:35Without the proper process you can't get the outcome
05:37But of course it's not about going through the process, you know, round and round
05:43And not getting things out
05:44But here you have the outcome, which is the peace deal
05:47What happens is that when one talks about institutionalizing the peace process
05:54It can only come into effect if there is that foundational push
06:03And the foundational push usually comes top down
06:06Because if the leaders are not prepared to stick to the head
06:11To go the extra mile
06:13To call each other
06:14So, you know, say, hey, let's get this thing going
06:17Then the follow through at the back would just be as lethargic
06:20So we don't want that.
06:22So you have a classic case of example where the leaders themselves
06:25Are always prepared to pick up the phone
06:27Let's deal with it.
06:28Okay
06:29And once the signal goes top down, it moves
06:32So I think, I don't think it's a failure here
06:35Or it shows any weakness in the industry
06:38Having said that though, with time
06:41Probably it's a good thing we didn't have that much of conflict history
06:45Yeah, for it to build up
06:46Yeah, you give it to those
06:47We don't have that experience.
06:48That's right.
06:49You give it to those guys who have been fighting for years and years
06:51Oh yeah, they've got it all institutionalized
06:54In that sense, I think it's a good thing
06:55Okay, so there's a silver lining there.
06:56Absolutely
06:57Yes
06:58You talked about Donald Trump's presence here
07:00As part of presiding over the KL Accord
07:04How do you think, so I'm curious to know
07:08Washington's interest in the Accord
07:10But also how Washington might view Malaysia's role as facilitator
07:16As we know, Donald Trump has claimed this as another peace deal that he brokered
07:24So he's a peacemaker, positioning himself as a peacemaker
07:28Do you think Malaysia's getting enough credit for the role that we played in brokering this?
07:33You've hit it right.
07:35It's Trump himself who has publicly and openly said
07:39We have to thank Malaysia
07:40Okay
07:41Even before he came in
07:42We have to thank Malaysia for this
07:43I think it was interviewed, I think Air Force One itself
07:48And he was asked about it.
07:50And somebody said, it's Malaysia, it's Malaysia
07:53I think he repeated it three times
07:55And he also used a term that, you know, referring to Anwar Ibrahim as a good man
08:00Now we're not very sure whether that's good or not
08:02But the point is he did say that
08:04And when he was here yesterday
08:06I was private, I was there
08:08So there are two things which stood out
08:12I've always said, you know, the only predictable thing about Trump
08:19Is his unpredictability
08:22You know, so it could go
08:26Either way
08:27Either way, yeah
08:28But in the case of yesterday, it went beautifully all the way
08:32It was good.
08:33He didn't have anything negative to say about anybody
08:36Except the usual, you know, one or two words
08:39About his predecessor
08:41And we don't need to name names here
08:43But for this part of the world
08:45He was really very, very magnanimous in his words
08:49I would say he's rather uncharacteristic of Trump
08:53Yeah, in that sense, he was really good
08:55So that is a plus factor.
08:57Okay
08:58I might even want to mention that, you know
09:00It's so good that it was an extraordinary display of camaraderie
09:04When he got the Prime Minister to ride with him in The Beast
09:08Yes, it was that breaking protocol
09:10Breaking protocol
09:11Breaking protocol is one thing
09:12It's like that goes to show the level in terms of the chemistry
09:19Okay
09:20You're talking about fantastic mixture here
09:22The rapport that was built
09:24Okay
09:25But that's interesting.
09:27So we want to play the gracious host as chair of ASEAN
09:31As host country
09:32But did we get that balance right?
09:34Because we know Trump arrived in Malaysia amid protests as well
09:39Trump being an active, you know, veto country in the Security Council
09:46Against helping end the genocide in Gaza
09:50Did we get that balance right between Malaysian hospitality and standing firm to our principles on humanity?
10:00We definitely got it right smack in the middle
10:04Because on the one hand, we are playing hosts and we are the chair
10:09It is on us to ensure that we conduct the position and use the power as chair
10:16Not to be influenced by our respective geopolitical concerns
10:21Which is only German to our country
10:23Right, not everyone in ASEAN agrees
10:25Exactly
10:26So you have to take that role right
10:28Even beyond that, what is the point of trying to show that it would be very good if you could boycott
10:36A superpower like the US
10:39How would it bring any effort that it would be good?
10:43How would it move the needle towards resolution in Gaza?
10:48The point is that he, like it or not, has done something in relation to the comprehensive Gaza plan
10:54Although we did not agree 100%, we agreed substantively enough to show both moral and physical support
11:01And that was good.
11:03In any event, we did not dial down in relation to opposition on Gaza
11:09We remain firm on that.
11:11But I didn't really fully answer your question earlier
11:16Donald Trump gave very strong credit to the role played by Anwar Ibrahim by Malaysia in resolving this war between Cambodia and Thailand
11:32At the same time, he gave due credit to the respective leaders of Cambodia and Thailand
11:38Which goes to show it's a very fair, balanced assessment of the whole situation
11:43I use the word, incorrect to Chris Kelly because it appears that he seems to be shooting his mouth both times
11:51And tends to end up on the wrong side
11:53So in this case, it was good.
11:56Do you think the conversation during the ride in The Beast was one that could advance Malaysia's
12:07You talked about camaraderie but could advance Malaysia's relationship with the US bilaterally?
12:13Only God knows what happened there, what was the conversation
12:17But I would imagine that given the character of Anwar Ibrahim
12:21Given his astuteness as a statesman
12:25Affability, you know
12:27It's dangerous.
12:29It's dangerous.
12:30You can be sucked into his vortex of diplomacy
12:32He is so charming.
12:34Yes
12:35So, and then given the strong character of Trump
12:38And the fact that they could ride in
12:40I would imagine that would be the best of the four-eyed meetings that anyone could have
12:45Absolutely
12:46It's like more than the 30-minute ride
12:47Yes
12:48I would say that in terms of pristine, four-eyed meetings
12:53That ride would be the pièce de résistance
12:57The very top, the best of it
12:59And
13:00Agreed
13:01Yes
13:02And I'm sure
13:03I'm sure it was a good one.
13:04Because after the ride
13:05You know
13:06The bilateral was extensively longer than usual
13:10After which there was the, you know
13:12US-Asian summit which was done very well
13:16And people would say that, ah, no
13:18Go easy.
13:19Trump may not have the patience to listen
13:21He listened through everyone.
13:22Okay
13:23Yes
13:24What did you hope for?
13:25He didn't show signs at home.
13:26Can we cut this short?
13:27Okay
13:28At least there was that.
13:29He was in a good mood.
13:30After the ride
13:31He definitely looked
13:32Good mood after the ride
13:33During the ride
13:34After
13:35And after
13:36During the conference itself
13:37And after the bilateral
13:38All the way
13:39Okay
13:40Well
13:41Then talk to me a little bit about whether
13:43There has been
13:45Whether
13:46Trump's presence here has really drowned out the ASEAN agenda
13:52So I wonder about that.
13:54Because there was a bit of Trump mania happening
13:56All the global media covering Trump's presence here
14:00Which is great because ASEAN gets a mention in all their global headlines
14:04But do you think that we were strong enough to assert our voice, our agenda amid all the noise happening when global leaders converge?
14:14I don't think there's any problem at all
14:16I don't think there's any problem at all
14:17It has really highlighted the presence of ASEAN as a huge block
14:25And given credence to, given credit by President Trump himself
14:29And during his intervention he was asked several times
14:32He could interject which he didn't
14:34He only had good things to say
14:37Of course you could put it down to just PR
14:40But what would he do?
14:41He's not a person known to be
14:43Pretty adaptable to PR, right?
14:45He's known to be shooting his mouth
14:46But here
14:47He was very gracious and he said positive things
14:49That's number one
14:50Number two
14:51None of the issues that are important for ASEAN
14:55None of it has been drowned out in any way
14:59In the opening remarks
15:02The Prime Minister made clear about the situation
15:04He got a lot of publicity on that
15:06And followed by the Plenary Session
15:08Pretty strong stuff
15:09And even as we speak
15:11Later this afternoon we have the East Asia Summit
15:14Trump has to go back of course
15:15But Rubio is here
15:16Yes
15:17Yes
15:18And that speaks volumes of how important it is
15:21I agree
15:22The East Asia Summit
15:23The 20th East Asia Summit
15:25Which is held along the sidelines of the ASEAN Summit
15:28Is really quite interesting because
15:30I think it brings all the right people to the table
15:33Yes
15:34But Prof Aiz, that's where I want to ask you
15:37Where the opportunity lies
15:39You've got an amazing
15:40You've got the 11 ASEAN member states
15:42Sitting at the table
15:43You've got all the dialogue partners
15:45You've got Russia, US, China
15:47You've got Australia, Korea, Japan
15:49All the big, big trade partners
15:52Great, and don't forget you have Brazil
15:54Absolutely
15:55You have South Africa
15:57Yes
15:58In fact I wanted to make sure I mentioned that
16:00And I don't want to be seen to be just mentioning
16:03US and US
16:04You've got Global South in its strongest showing ever
16:08So we have all these great leaders
16:10Foreign ministers sitting at the table
16:12For the East Asia Summit
16:14How do we make sure we don't squander this opportunity?
16:17What is it that you think should be on the table
16:19When it's set up so perfectly already?
16:23Each and every member state
16:25And each and every participant
16:27The guest and the others who have been there
16:30Must be given the chance to say what they want to say
16:33Okay
16:34And having said that
16:35It will be the duty on the Psalms
16:38And in the case of Track 2 people like us
16:41To get the issues boiling
16:44Get the interaction
16:46So they can be taken to a level
16:49Eventually to be resolved if they have differences
16:52The commonalities should be set in
16:54So that we now really breathe and give new leads on life
17:00For the East Asia Summit
17:02Which was seen to be in the state of comatose
17:04And this is the definitive moment where we have that
17:08Okay
17:09Can you elaborate to me?
17:10What do you mean by state of comatose?
17:12Has it not been tapped to its full potential before?
17:15It's comatose because it became rudimentary
17:17It became routine.
17:19It became a situation where the parties came in with their standard scripts
17:26Read it and that's it.
17:29Not prepared to listen to the other side
17:31Or even if they did
17:33It would be perfunctory.
17:35It's like left in, right out.
17:37It's like nothing is going to happen
17:38Fixed positions
17:39No organic development after that
17:42We are looking at redoing this
17:44And it would be indeed momentous
17:46If during the time of Malaysia's chair
17:48We are able to carry this out.
17:49And of course
17:51We are looking at the successor
17:53Yes
17:54It's no pushover.
17:55You are looking at the Philippines
17:57Do you expect?
17:59How do you expect their chairmanship to be like next year?
18:03Going by the statements of Bong Bong yesterday
18:06He articulated the Philippines position very well
18:09Vis-a-vis the importance of Asian centrality
18:12I think it's going to be good.
18:13It's going to be good.
18:14But they do have a different relationship
18:16With the US and China
18:20You can
18:21You can have
18:22I think it's important to stress
18:23That centrality does not warrant or require uniformity
18:30Okay
18:31But the major themes that are germane to ASEAN
18:36Like for example
18:37The need to be collectively doing so that you can promote each other
18:41Should be there
18:42And represented through cohesive action
18:44But it doesn't mean that
18:46Malaysia must have the same position exactly on how they articulate
18:50The way Vietnam does
18:51Or the way Singapore does
18:52Or the way the Philippines does
18:54If they are prone to a bit more one side
18:57Or they pivot slightly to that side
18:59It's fine.
19:00But Malaysia still has a role to put forward our leadership
19:09Even though we are not chairs
19:11Where do you see that role coming?
19:13And what role can we play in terms of making sure that we still maintain our thought leadership
19:18Our leadership in action and principle as well?
19:23I think this is a case where it will have to be germane to the soft power
19:28That is inherent in the case of the leadership
19:33You have a lackadaisical leadership
19:36Then you can't expect others to follow through
19:39I think it's in the very nature of this very dynamic leadership we have in the Prime Minister
19:45That you see this soft power really raiding itself
19:49And having that influence
19:51A certain level of moral suasion
19:55Among RCM Member States
19:57That they feel that wow this is good for us to follow through
19:59Right
20:00I like the use of the term moral suasion
20:02And you know him playing the phones right?
20:04He will still continue to call
20:06You also reminded me when you brought up Track 2 Diplomacy
20:11You reminded me that the work of ASEAN doesn't end
20:16Start and end in an ASEAN Summit
20:19Exactly
20:20So ISIS Malaysia, organizations like ISIS Malaysia
20:23Plays a real role in making sure that the agenda of ASEAN is continued
20:30Or sustained throughout the year
20:32What are you looking at?
20:35Particularly in the last couple of months
20:37Where we're still standing
20:38We're not giving it up just yet
20:40In terms of making sure that it moves towards real concrete policy
20:45For an inclusive and sustainable ASEAN
20:48In our case, I'm speaking on behalf of ISIS Malaysia
20:53There will certainly be no winter of self-fulfillment
20:57There will be the glorious summer of wanting to work and work continuously
21:02And that is the role that we have been destined to play
21:05How do we do it?
21:06We continue to interact with strong think tanks
21:11Strong counterparts of ASEAN member states
21:14And to cut across this on major issues that matter
21:17In fact, the issues that you have written
21:19For example, what are we going to do about East Asia coming after this
21:22At the track 2 levels
21:24And then we have the ASEAN regional forum
21:26Which is part of the pillars that move things
21:30And then that is the current thing that is going on in this age
21:33Which is the ASEAN power grid?
21:36It's the virtual bread and butter of moving the economy
21:41And not only that
21:42And that links very closely with climate change, energy transition
21:46These are all issues which are germane not just G2G
21:52But across the pillars and the track 2 players have a lot
21:57I don't mind just sharing this two weeks ago
21:59Was it just last week I got back from Shanghai?
22:02It was a big gathering of think tanks talking about ASEAN and China
22:08Those were some pretty issues that are quite related to this
22:11There's always the issue of how we measure and try to balance ASEAN, China and ASEAN
22:18And of course you know the other elephant in the room
22:20Which is ASEAN in the US?
22:22I said this is a wrong question
22:23We do not need to do any balancing
22:25They balance themselves.
22:26We need to concentrate on ASEAN sui generis
22:30Because by itself it will be able to either repel or attract the forces
22:35If we get our act together, the forces want to come to us
22:39But if we are, we don't put the money where our mouth is
22:45And we talk about centrality when we act in no cohesive manner
22:49Then people will see us as weak
22:52And when we are weak, the ASEAN members themselves will be just as weak
22:56You know, basically that's how we grow up
22:59We have an eleventh member of ASEAN now
23:02Yes, in the time that we have left
23:04I do want to mention Timo Leste's ascension into ASEAN
23:08So the family is growing
23:10Yes
23:11The family is growing.
23:12Do you see, how do you see the eleventh member strengthening the block?
23:17Okay, I was expecting that kind of question
23:20And I think you've fallen into the trap
23:22Which is to expect what Timo Leste can do for ASEAN
23:25Can bring to ASEAN
23:27You know what I've always said
23:29Ask not what Timo Leste can do for ASEAN
23:33Ask what ASEAN can do for Timo Leste
23:36After all, inclusivity means that
23:38Timo Leste is tiny, it's small
23:42It's a fledgling in terms of
23:44We need to go all the way out.
23:47Yeah, it really helps.
23:50And with that it can stand on its feet
23:53It has got good resources
23:55Once, give it five years
23:57Let it build up
23:58Yeah, then it will be able to reciprocate
24:01The help given by the members
24:03I've spoken to you before.
24:05The asymmetry in terms of economic power
24:07So it's not fair to expect
24:09Timo Leste, what can you do for us?
24:12What you're doing is that by joining us
24:14You give us that strong sense of cohesiveness and centrality
24:18And that ASEAN itself is a very inclusive group
24:21It does not neglect the people around it
24:24Near it, the country near it
24:26It doesn't exclude and say
24:27Look, you're just too small, we marginalize you
24:30That level of expression of magnanimity
24:33Is what ASEAN is getting from Timo Leste's inclusion
24:38So what do we do? We help them out
24:39I like that, it strengthens our values
24:42That's right.
24:43Prosper thy neighbor
24:44Yes, yes, yes, exactly
24:46Professor Faiz, thank you so much for joining me on the show today
24:48It's been a pleasure talking to you today
24:50And thank you for giving us an insight into what happens
24:53Behind all those closed door meetings
24:55I appreciate your time.
24:56Thank you Melissa for having me, thank you
24:58That's all the time we have for you on this episode of Consider This
25:01I'm Melissa Idris signing off for the evening
25:03Thank you so much for watching
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