- 3 months ago
Only God Can Judge Me: The Many Lives of Tupac Shakur (Mariner/HarperCollins, Oct. 21, 2025) is Jeff Pearlman’s 11th book and his first outside the sports world. He spent three years interviewing 652 people — family members, classmates, artists, collaborators, and even those who’d never spoken before — to deliver the most complete portrait of Tupac ever published.
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CreativityTranscript
00:01Okay, I think, okay, recording started. Good, good, good day, everyone. This is Big Said,
00:07Dennis Rico Sign, back again. I have a special guest that I don't know too much about him,
00:16only because we have common friend. Well, I wouldn't say friend, this is a guy that we both
00:21know. Let me stop. I want to first shout out Chuck Crickmore, because he definitely put me
00:27with you, because you've written a book, and the name of the book, which is Under Us,
00:33Only God Can Judge Me, The Many Lives of Tupac Shakur. And I know that Tupac, that's a name
00:41that even to this day, even though he died many, many years ago, he still brings up either memories
00:49or discussions, especially for us older heads, and even the younger heads involved in hip hop,
00:56but just in music in general, they hear about him through other artists who have admired him
01:01on the come up. But I'm going to, actually, you know what, before we start, why don't you give
01:05a little background of yourself, and then we'll just head right into it, so that way people will
01:10know that I'm not speaking to somebody who just appeared yesterday and wrote a book.
01:15Yeah. So I'm a longtime writer. I've almost always been a sports writer. I was a longtime
01:21baseball writer at Sports Illustrated. I've written 10 books, a bunch of bestsellers. My
01:26biggest book, notoriety-wise, was a book, Showtime, about the 80s Lakers that became the HBO show
01:32Winning Time.
01:34Oh, I didn't know that. See, I didn't really do my research.
01:37Oh, good. Oh, good. So I've written 10 books, and this is my 11th. It's my first non-sports
01:43book. I was waiting for years for someone to write the definitive, definitive, definitive
01:48Tupac biography, like the book, interview 500, 600 people, dive deep into it. To be honest,
01:55I always thought Kevin Powell was going to write it, because he had on his website for
01:58about a decade working on the Tupac book, and I just kind of finally realized he wasn't
02:02going to do it. And I know I've said this all along, and I'm very upfront about it. I'm
02:06an unlikely choice. I'm a white sports writer from rural New York, writing a Tupac Shakur book.
02:10But I kept waiting for someone to write the book that I wanted to read. I am a reporter.
02:15I've reported on diverse individuals my whole life, just being a sports writer. And I just
02:20wanted to dive in and tackle this subject. And 10 years ago, I asked someone to ask what
02:24your dream book is. I said, probably Tupac. So now I've done my dream book, so I feel pretty
02:28good about that.
02:29So you took away like seven of my questions right off that intro, but that's good.
02:34And you know, of course, because you're not black, and it's Tupac, I'm pretty sure that
02:42people will probably wonder why are, and I know Kevin Powell as well. What's up, Kevin,
02:47if you're watching this? But it is funny that there has been, of course, movies, biographies
02:53and things about Tupac. And being that this is someone you've always wanted to write about,
02:59why did you want to write about Tupac? And what made him your first non-sports figure?
03:06Okay. So I think there's something about Tupac, and this is going to sound like a weird comparison,
03:11but I wrote a book about Brett Favre, right? The quarterback for the longtime quarterback for
03:14the Packers. And Brett Favre isn't the greatest quarterback in NFL history. Like you can make an
03:19argument for a million different quarterbacks. Obviously, Joe Montana, Brady, Manning, Mahomes,
03:25on and on and on, right? But there was something about Favre that like moved people, that impacted
03:33people, where people felt it. It was tangible, right? Something that Joe Montana didn't have,
03:38that I would argue Peyton Manning even didn't have. Like something about Brett Favre just like hit you,
03:43the good and the bad. It just hit you. And I feel like certainly many people would make the argument
03:47Tupac isn't the greatest MC of all time. Many people would, but many people wouldn't.
03:51Many people say he's overrated. So I don't think he is, but many people do.
03:55But it's undeniable that he had something tangible that, like Shock G said, a lot of rappers rap from
04:01the mouth. Some rappers rap from the throat. Tupac rap from the stomach. And that guttural kind of
04:06thing that he had that moved you. And maybe you hated him or maybe you loved him, but you had to pay
04:11attention to him. And people like that are really, really great book subjects. And the truth of the
04:16matter is when someone dies young, as Tupac did, it adds an extra layer to it all because you have
04:22a lot of people who are able to speak for him and he's not here anymore. And a lot of people who speak
04:28erroneously about him. And you also have a lot of rumors and myths and things that just over time
04:32grow and grow and grow. The number of times someone asked me, did Tupac really get in a fight with
04:36Michael Jackson? I'm like, no. Is Tupac really living in Cuba? No, he's not living in Cuba. Like
04:41did Shug really have something to do with his death? Like on and on and on.
04:45And I just, again, I was waiting for the well-reported, well-researched, deep dive journalistic
04:51book that I just didn't think came along. So I thought, I don't see anyone doing it. I have a
04:57lot of respect. I truly do, but he wasn't doing it. So someone had to do it. And I just, because
05:02I'll say one more thing though. After a while, people do stop paying attention. That is the truth.
05:07And you do run out of time to write a biography on someone. People start dying off. People start
05:12losing interest. I can't guarantee you 50 years from now. I know we say it as cliche,
05:1650 years from now, everyone's still going to be listening to Tupac. I don't know that. I don't
05:19even know what listening habits would be 50 years from now. But I know right now there's an opportunity
05:23still within 30 years after his death to write and to have people have a very strong interest in him.
05:28So that's why I did it. It's amazing. Like you just said 30 years and I'm saying to myself,
05:33wow, because I came up in hip hop. I was actually at the Source Awards when Tupac made his infamous
05:39speech. And I'm like, wow, 30 years. I'm like, woo. But you're right because we have LeBron James
05:48right now using a sports metaphor. Dr. J, as amazing as he was, once Michael Jordan came around,
05:57people forgot about Dr. J. So you're right with that mindset that although Tupac is
06:03still folklore, whatever, however you want to describe them, even in two years, the interest
06:10might not be there. So I applaud you for definitely getting done what you wanted to do that you said
06:16no one else has done. I have a quick question before we actually get into the book, because
06:23this always stuck in my mind. And I want to ask you a particular question. What do you think if Tupac
06:30had not had died? Where do you think he would have gone career wise?
06:36So last night I was on a, I was on EDI means podcast and I think it's airing today or something,
06:41but, and I actually felt like in a weird way, he not even a weird way. He was more qualified to
06:46answer that than me. Cause I, for me it's guesses, right? Like I interviewed, he was in gang related
06:49with Jim Belushi and Jim Belushi told me he thought he was two movies away from being an Academy award
06:54actor. And I think there's no doubt about it that Tupac had theater movie and theater ambitions that
07:00he would have. I think he was a great actor. I think he already was just a very beautiful actor
07:05in a lot of mediocre movies, like gang related gridlocked, even poetic justice. Like they're not
07:11great movies, but he's great in them. So I asked EDI, I mean, what he thought? And his mate,
07:16he said he definitely, he was already reaching a point where he was more interested in acting than
07:20he was rap. And the other thing he said is, um, politics, right? And it's funny because we started
07:27before we started recording, I asked you if you knew, uh, do it all, do it all Dupree, Dupree Kelly.
07:33Great guy. And I interviewed him for this book and he told me a story that's really stuck with me.
07:38He said, um, uh, Lords of the Underground, his group was on tour with Thug Life and Tupac was part of
07:43Thug Life. Yeah. One day Dupree Kelly and Tupac got in a little beef, like an argument.
07:49And Dupree Kelly went back to his motel room. And a few minutes later, there's a knock on the door
07:53and he looks through the people. That's Tupac. And he's standing there and he doesn't know Tupac
07:57that well. Yeah. Dupree Kelly picks up the hotel phone before answering the door and calls one of
08:02his, uh, his guys from Lords of the Underground and says, yo, Pac is at the door. He's like, what does he
08:05want? It's like, I don't, I don't know. I just want to give you a heads up in case something
08:09goes down. Okay. Click answers the door. Tupac's like, you weren't going to let me in. He's like,
08:14come in. And he's got some forties in his hand and he gives Dupree Kelly a 40 and they just got
08:19in an argument. And he said to Dupree Kelly, you know, it's kind of fucked up what you said to me.
08:24Like, I don't, I don't appreciate what you said to me, but I love the stood up yourself and you
08:29stood up for your guys. Like that's important. And he's like, and you know what? We need to start
08:34taking action as black men in America. You need to represent New Jersey. I need to represent Oakland.
08:39Cube needs to represent LA. And not only that, we need to start thinking about becoming legislators.
08:44And Dupree Kelly is like, what do you mean? He's like, we need to start running for office. Instead
08:48of having these laws applied to us, we need to be responsible for making laws that impact our
08:52people. And he gave this whole pep talk. And this is like 30 something years ago now.
08:57And Dupree Kelly, as you know, is now a, uh, a city councilman in New Jersey. And he said the
09:04impetus for that was that talk from Tupac Shakur.
09:06You just gave me something to speak to him about when I, cause as you mentioned, like
09:11I said, I, I was, I was just informed that he, he wrote a book and the fact that he didn't
09:16tell me that, but I found out, I'm like, we're going to talk about it. So I'm definitely
09:20going to, um, why is he, uh, why is the white Jewish sports writer telling me this, Kelly?
09:25Exactly.
09:26Hell man. What are you doing here?
09:27Like we live like 14 minutes away from each other and you couldn't tell me, but, um, my,
09:35my, my feelings are that I felt that he would have been probably bigger than Will Smith had
09:39gotten.
09:40I agree.
09:41And I tell people that all the time, but I think that that's where his career was heading
09:44and he was definitely on the right path. And I don't think that, and like I said, we're
09:48going to go right, right into the book, but I don't think that from my understanding, from
09:52the people that I knew at the time that I didn't think that Tupac was the thug that, um,
10:01he portrayed. And like I said, this is based on, I never really interacted. We've been in
10:06the same places several times, but based on the people with mutual friends, they were
10:10like, he's like, so down to earth. That's not really who he is when he starts that rah
10:15rah shit. And I thought that the acting thing would bring him up to a level where he wouldn't
10:19care about it anymore. And just, and like you said, even with the politics and even when
10:23within his music, he definitely had the mindset of uplifting, even though, you know, we, we
10:30knew the thug side, but he also had the, we need to be uplifted as people side as well
10:35of course, because his family was definitely known for being involved in politics. But
10:40anyway, I want to say one thing. I was talking to Layla Steinberg. I don't know if you know
10:45Layla at all, but Layla helped with his career a lot. She was his manager early on and put
10:49him in touch with Atron Gregory and digital underground. And she stayed in touch with
10:52Tupac for years and years and the family for years and years. And the other day I was driving
10:56and we were talking about different medias and just the way of thinking about Tupac. And
11:00she said to me something that has actually stuck with me. She said, Tupac wasn't a gangster,
11:04but he was a warrior. And I thought that is a great way of putting it. He would fight.
11:10He was raised by a black Panther. He had the ethos of the black Panthers. He had the education
11:15of the black Panthers. He like, I actually, wait, this is crazy. I had to talk with my son
11:19the other day. Who's a big hip hop head. And I was talking about how I've been a little frustrated
11:23by guys out here in LA, uh, like ice cube, like Dr. Dre, like Snoop, just as examples, not making
11:31any noise about ice raids, about Brown people being grabbed off the streets and not hearing
11:35anything. And we were talking about it. And I was like, there's no way Tupac, at least 25 year old
11:40Tupac wouldn't be saying anything. Right. That just seems incongruous with who he was. But if you
11:45think about it, those guys were primarily rapping about their experiences, where they grew up and what
11:50they went through as black men, right? Uh, violence, guns, gangs, uh, my mom, my, my, my family, but it
11:56was rapping about the experience. And Tupac was rapping educationally about how to stand up, how
12:05to fight, how to defend yourself, how to not take shit. Like it's different. He wasn't just rapping
12:10about what it was like growing up in Baltimore, Marin city. He was telling his fellow black men and
12:15women, young and old, this is what you need to do to defend yourself. This is how you stand up.
12:20I just think it's different. He was more instructional than those other rappers in my opinion.
12:25Definitely. So, so let's, let's get to the book because from my understanding, you, you spoke to
12:29like three people about it. No, I'm just joking. You spoke to, um, I mean, I'll let you tell me the
12:36number, but I know you're a lot of people. Yeah. How many, how long did it take for you to gather
12:45the information, the amount of people, as well as the information where you felt comfortable
12:51enough to write the book? So basically it took a little more than two and a half years
12:56just to report. So that's no writing, just reporting that's, uh, interviewing more than
13:01600 people that's building up, buying every possible Tupac books, book magazine, everything
13:08possible. And it's also building up a library of every newspaper article conceivably that's
13:12ever been written about Tupac, meaning probably 10,000 pages of material on Tupac and just
13:18digging through it, digging through it. The thing you do with the newspaper articles,
13:21the old articles is you find names. So you might find some article from like 1993 and it
13:25might be like, Tupac Shakur stopped by Joe's pizza yesterday and had two slices with two
13:30women, Jane Smith and Jane Doe. Well then as a journalist, you try to find Jane Smith and
13:35say, Oh, do you remember having pizza with Tupac? Oh yeah, he was great. So you just do
13:39a dig, dig, dig, dig before you feel comfortable writing. It's a long process, a lot of travel
13:43too. Yeah. What, what, what would you say you've got? And I know it's, it's, it's, it's probably
13:51going to be a loaded question because I'm pretty sure you have so much information. What would
13:55you say is the most surprising thing that you found out about Tupac or anything surrounding
14:01Tupac that you didn't know before you started your research? Oh man. How about I give you a top
14:07five? Okay. That's what I'm pretty sure. That's also, I know it's a loaded question because there's
14:11gotta be many. Okay. Let's go top five in no order. I found, I reunited the baby who has dropped
14:20down the trash chute, who inspired Brenda's got a baby. So I found the baby, reunited the baby
14:25with his mother who threw him down the trash chute. That was a big one for me. That was kind
14:30of unprecedented. That's a good one. Actually. Yeah. Wait, we, we, we, we, we have to stop
14:35at that one because that's big in itself because, um, and I had this conversation with Chuck because
14:40when he first told me, um, a couple of weeks ago about that aspect of it, I'm like, and of
14:48course, no shade when I say this, but it's like only a white person would do that. Why though? Wait,
14:54what does that mean? Why do you say that? Because like, and like I said, of course, um, I don't
15:01know. It's just like, we, we're interested, but not that interested to go that deep into actually
15:08contacting and getting to somebody. And I don't know anybody within my culture or within anything
15:16that I know that would do something like that. And that's not to say that it hasn't happened.
15:20It won't happen. And it's never happened. I'm just saying, cause me and Chuck agreed. He's
15:25like, I was amazed because when he said that, I was like, wow, that is something. And like
15:29I said, and like I said, no shade when I say that, but it's like the mindset would be like,
15:36wow, you had to really be deeply involved or deeply wanted to, in order to do something
15:42like that. Now finding out is one thing. Yeah. Discovering is another, but actually going
15:48to the lens of actually putting one, one or two together and not only getting three, but then
15:54getting six because you doubled it. And then you come up with this and bang, you made something
15:59happen that no one probably was thinking about. Like what was going through your mind with that,
16:04with that whole process? All right. So I'm just going to say, I, I'm honest to God, I don't think
16:08it's a white thing or black thing or an Asian thing. I think it's a journalist thing. Like I just
16:12think, like, I know a lot of journalists, a lot of amazing black journalists who would have done that.
16:17Actually, I think it's a journalism thing. I think it's a, it depends. Like I came up at
16:21Sports Illustrated. Like that's where I really learned to be a journalist. And the number one,
16:25I'd say the number one key at SI was always make the extra call, always make the extra call. And
16:30also think outside the box. Like, okay, here's this song. It was really important. Brenda's got a baby.
16:36Who can we talk to? All right. I call the actress who played the baby in the video. I call the
16:40different people in the video. I talked to Money B who's part of the song. I talked to Alan
16:44Hughes who directed the video. Okay. That's all kind of standard. What can I do to go to the next
16:48level? I wonder whatever happened to the baby. So I have a friend who's a genealogist, an amazing,
16:53amazing genealogist. And she dug and she found a number. And I wound up with Davon Hodge, who is
16:59the baby, now an adult. And he lives in Las Vegas. I drove out there. He was, he's an awesome,
17:05lovely guy. And, um, you know, he found out his parent, he was adopted by parents in Las Vegas.
17:13His parents had died recently. He does an ancestry.com search. All these names come up in
17:18Brooklyn, New York. He reaches out to them. They're like, Holy crap. We we've known about
17:23you. We were always wondering where you were. He goes to Brooklyn. He reunites with the family.
17:27They say to him, do you like Tupac? And he's like, I love Tupac. I'm like, you know, Brenda's got a baby.
17:31I love Brenda's got a baby. We think you're the baby in that video. We think that's you.
17:36Well, he hasn't seen his mom. Obviously she threw him down the trash heap when he was a baby.
17:41My genealogist, Michelle Suley, genealogist of the gods, tracks down a number. She thinks it's her
17:46calls her one day says, um, by any chance, did you have a, uh, a baby when you were 12? And she's
17:52like, yes, who is this? And she's like, well, I'm working with this writer, Jeff Perrone about a
17:56Tupac book. Um, we, uh, we think your son is from the song. And she starts screaming and crying.
18:03I go, do you know where my son is? Do you know where my son is? I've been looking for my son for
18:07decades. And she's like, yeah. And she starts going, I need to get home. I need to get home.
18:12I live in Newark, New Jersey. I need to get home. And she's like, well, where are you? And she goes,
18:16I'm at a red hot chili peppers concert. And she goes, where's the concert? It's in Las Vegas.
18:21And, um, they meet that night and they reunited. So that's not a white journalist or black
18:27journalist. It's a journalism, man. It's just like journalism. You know, it's like seeing something
18:30honest to God, this is a truth to me. Journalism is like, you go into interview Chuck D. Let's just
18:36use someone Chuck D. And you could ask them all the same questions. You could be like, so when you
18:42wrote fight the power, what were you thinking? How do you feel about the world now? Blah, blah, blah. Or
18:45you can look at Chuck D sneakers and notice they're like the cheapest sneakers ever. And you say to
18:52Chuck D, why would you buy the cheapest sneakers ever? He goes, man, I'm this is, I'm making this
18:56up. I'm really, my best friend is the blah, blah, blah. I met him in Egypt. You were in Egypt. Yeah,
19:00man, I was there for this thing. I almost died in a plane crash. And all of a sudden you have this
19:04story you never thought of. Like that's journalism. You look at a song, you don't just think of the
19:08obvious. You try to think of the less obvious. Yeah. Like I said, I didn't mean to interrupt you,
19:13but it's just amazing. Like I said, just from that aspect, period. But just the other four,
19:19because I know we have limited time and I'm pretty sure. Oh, no worries. Okay. I'll give
19:22you four. 90,000 questions. Yeah, no, all good. I found, so Tupac, when he was at Baltimore School
19:29for the Arts, had a girlfriend named Mary. And Mary was a white ballet dancer who is the daughter
19:34of communists. And she was Tupac's girlfriend. And there's a long story how they met, but they
19:39dated. And I reached out to Mary and she never talked to people. But I told her about my research
19:44and said, you know what, I'll talk to you. And she lives in Nebraska now. And she said,
19:48I don't know if this interests you, but my mom was recently cleaning up and she found about 150
19:54letters Tupac wrote me in high school. Would you want to see the letters? And I'm like, I will be in
19:59Nebraska tomorrow. And I go out to Center City, Nebraska, a place you probably don't want to visit.
20:04Not because you're black and I'm white, because there's literally nothing there. And there's
20:09nothing there. You go out there, nothing there. But I met with Mary and she dated Tupac in high
20:16school. And the letters were just like beautiful. And they were telling and they were detailed.
20:20And it just gave you all kinds of grittiness. It was amazing. So that was awesome.
20:24Number three, I found the guy who's never been interviewed before. The first EMT to get to Tupac
20:30after he was shot at Quad Studios. He'd never been interviewed before. And he confirmed to me
20:35something that was always a little bit of a rumor. And I know it's not like people are going to be
20:38like, who needs to know that? So Tupac was shot three times. I think it was important to five
20:43steps. He was actually shot three times. He was shot once in the hand. He was shot once in the head,
20:47but it crowned his skull. And the other shot, and there were all these rumors, did Tupac shoot
20:51himself in the balls? Like that was a rumor for years and years and years. Did Tupac shoot himself in the
20:55balls? In fact, when he went to prison, when he was at Rikers, the female guards used to mock him as
21:00they'd call him one pock instead of Tupac because all these rumors he shot. Anyway,
21:04the EMT confirmed to me that he shot himself in the Tesco with his gun, accidental discharge.
21:10And he said he knew this because there was no entrance wound through the pants or the underwear.
21:15So in order for a bullet to have been fired from an outside source and not under the waistband,
21:20that's number three. I thought that was a pretty good one. Um, number four, you know,
21:26the, how do you want a video? Yeah. Okay. The director of that video was Ron Hightower and Ron
21:31Hightower. You may know this or may not. I didn't know this was the first major, major black porn star
21:38in America. He was basically the Ron Jeremy for black men. And if you look back in the nineties,
21:42there was always white men on the cover of porn videos like VHS is. He was the first guy to be a
21:48mainstream black soup porn superstar. When Tupac was in Clinton locked up, all the inmates,
21:54black and white were all about Ron Hightower videos. And they would pass the videos around
21:58and they could watch the videos under little things. Tupac gets out of prison and he's at a,
22:03at a party and he sees Ron Hightower there. And Ron Hightower is, I mean, he's seen Ron Hightower
22:09like naked in videos and he's like his idol. Cause he's having sex with all the hot women in videos
22:13and Tupac's in prison. And he goes up to Ron Hightower and he begs him, please run direct my video
22:19direct, please direct my video. Hightower invites him back to his house, Tupac back to his house.
22:24And I haven't told the story yet, by the way, invites him back to the house and Tupac spends
22:28the night at Ron Hightower's house. And Ron Hightower said Tupac the whole night was having
22:32sex with different women who were in the house, like literally bouncing around. They wake up the
22:35next morning, Tupac's, you know, bright eyed and bushy tailed. And he has a cup of coffee
22:39and Hightower's like Tupac and Tupac goes, listen, man, today, let's just have a party. He goes,
22:45just me, you and the bitches. And he pulls out $300. He says, Ron, go buy some steaks,
22:50go buy some Hennessy and get us some chip. And they spent 36 hours together. Ron Hightower directed
22:56the video to how do you want it? It's a famous X-rated video, but he hates it. He said Tupac
23:01ruined it because he had the Ron Hightower's plan to have was to have Tupac almost walking,
23:06giving a guided tour through a wet dream. And he said all Tupac wanted to do was have sex with the
23:11models and spray them with champagne. The crazy thing is Ron Hightower now works as a security guard
23:15in LA. He just gave up the whole business and now has a very quiet life. And I tracked him down and
23:20I spent my day driving around with Ron Hightower, which is a really good find. But did he direct
23:25videos before that? Only pornographic videos. Yeah, that's gonna be the next question. He never did
23:31a music video. He only did pornographic videos. So I thought that was pretty good. All right,
23:34I'll give you number four, which is a bombshell bombshell. Okay. Tupac's mom, Fendi Shakur,
23:40is actually born and raised in Lumberton, North Carolina, kind of the middle of nowhere. It's kind of like a
23:44done in by time, Southern town that's seen better days. A lot of drugs there now, a lot of homelessness.
23:50Anyway, I really wanted to learn about Fendi Shakur and where she was from. And after Tupac died,
23:57she had been living on the West Coast, but she wound up building a house in Lumberton, her hometown,
24:01moved back to Lumberton, lived in this gorgeous giant house on a lot of land, multi-acres.
24:07I go there last year. The house is abandoned. The property's abandoned. And they have someone who's
24:14a caretaker of the house. And I interviewed him. And he said, do you want to take a tour of
24:18Afeni's house? I'm like, yeah, I would love to take a tour of Afeni's house. I get this tour,
24:23okay? Afeni's house. It's cool. Her stuff is still packed up. You can like, her VHS tapes are over
24:28here. Her knitting stuff is here. It's like all this stuff from hers. Okay. The guy says to me,
24:33do you want to see where Tupac is buried? And I go, yeah, I made that exact face you just made. I was
24:39like, well, that doesn't, I was thinking like, what do you mean? Because everyone knows his ashes
24:43and off the Pacific ocean in Malibu, they did a ceremony. He goes, yeah, yeah, yeah. He goes,
24:49Afeni, Afeni was his aunt, by the way. This guy, his name is Dante Powers. Afeni buried his ass,
24:54some of his asses here in Lumberton. I'm like, what? He goes, oh yeah, come with me. Literally not
25:00joking, not exaggerating, has been confirmed in the front yard of an abandoned house in Lumberton,
25:07North Carolina is the tombstone and buried remains of Tupac Shakur. Wow. That's crazy.
25:16I'm going to say something that's really stupid. Yeah. I think he's still alive. But anyway,
25:21oh no. He's not, man. He's not. I wish, listen, I spent a lot of time with, I spent a lot of time
25:27right now. No, exactly. Wait, hold on. Tupac says I should tell you to shut up. He's not alive.
25:32AI Tupac just told me that. You know, I spent a lot of time with Yasmin Fula,
25:36who was Yaki from the Outlaws' mom. And also the, in a way, Tupac's financial guardian when he was
25:41older, an advisor. And she was there during his last days. And she's like, I know people like
25:46these rumors, but he, he died. Like he was, he died. He died. I'll tell you number five,
25:50since you want, do you want a quick fifth? Okay. Tupac dies in Las Vegas, obviously.
25:55None of these family members at this point, except for Ruki, trust Shug Knight. They just see him as
26:00like one person said, you could smell the sulfur when he walked into the room. Like he just had this
26:04devilish like thing. Okay. They leave it to Shug. Shug says he will handle the ashes.
26:09He'll handle Tupac's ashes. He'll handle the remains. And the rest of the family goes back
26:13to LA where Tupac lived. Two days later, a guy knocks on the door of Tupac's house.
26:19And it is a UPS man or FedEx man with Tupac's ashes in two day, a cardboard two day, two day FedEx
26:28express box. That is how Shug Knight handled Tupac's ashes. Two day FedEx, Jimmy, the 22 year old
26:35delivery boy. How's that? Five. Bam.
26:40That's, that's just amazing. I can't even, you know,
26:45I worked hard on this. I worked hard. The only way, my own is to God.
26:48I felt all along. I was going to have credibility issues, my background, my pigmentation,
26:57understandable credibility issues. And the only way you can make any dent in that is by busting
27:02your ass. Like that's the only way you can do it is bust your ass. So I tried very hard to bust my
27:05ass. Um, who was the most interesting person you spoke to that gave you, you know, like I said,
27:14I'm pretty sure you found out some, some many things that you didn't know beforehand, but is
27:18there anybody that stood out outside of the people you may have just mentioned as far as anything
27:24Tupac related that like either wowed you or surprised you so much that you didn't even believe
27:30it? It would have to be a sister. So I drove to new Orleans to see Setsua and Setsua is very guarded
27:37and it took me a very long time to even have her agree to sit down with me. Right. And it was really,
27:43I always say like, this has been the best education of my journalism career. This entire
27:47process has been an amazing education. And I met set in new Orleans and set, she would agree with
27:53this. I think is very prickly. She's not easy to approach. She's guarded. She's guarded about her
27:58brother. She's guarded about her mother. And, um, at one point I said to her, I said, so what was it like
28:05moving from, uh, Baltimore to Marin city? And she goes to me, that's your white privilege right there.
28:11That's your white privilege. And I'm like, what do you mean? She goes, we didn't move. We were
28:17relocated. There's a huge difference. And I was like, whoa. And I felt like she punched me in the
28:22stomach, but I also thought it was really important. Like, I think it's important to hear these things,
28:26you know, like, I think it's important to be aware and to understand where people are coming from.
28:30And what set gave me more than anything is really profound and dynamic insight into the trauma
28:37that she, her mother, and her brother live. Like imagine being Tupac Shakur. Your mom is your hero.
28:43She is a black Panther royalty. She's the Panther 21 personified. She represented herself at 21 years
28:50old while pregnant with you, while being brought back and forth to jail, won a trial. She's amazing.
28:57She's your hero. And at the same time you're watching her descend into the lowest level of crack
29:03addiction, where you are basically stumbling around, asking people for money, asking people
29:07for hits. So you were watching your hero become a zombie crack addict. They were poor. Tupac's first
29:14sexual experience was at age 14 with a cousin. His second sexual experience was a year later with a
29:19friend of his mother's. He, he just had trauma after trauma, after trauma. At one point they were
29:25homeless. At one point, and this is from Seth, Seth and Tupac, if any would drop them off at movie
29:31theaters in New York city and just to have the movies theater, be the baby for the day, babysitter
29:35for the day, where we're going to watch the Muppets take Manhattan. And then we're going to watch
29:38Indiana Jones. And then some other movie and mom will pick us up. At one point they went to the,
29:42to one of the nearby highways with a squeegee in a bucket or trying to make money. They were kids
29:47doing this. Tupac probably attended six or seven different elementary school, middle school,
29:52high school. It was like, it was a nomadic, poor, no male role model, broken life for him.
29:58It's kind of amazing that with a lot of artists and different fields, whether it's sports, music,
30:06entertainment, rarely have a regular, what society calls a regular childhood. But then they're the
30:15ones that end up being the top of their field are like, you know, we thinking that even if we know
30:21their story, their story isn't bad because, you know, we know people that may have done worse or may
30:26have done, but it's like, they've risen above it. And it's just amazing that, you know, sadly that,
30:33you know, he was taken out the way he was and when he was, that he would have probably done
30:38even better and had a, like I said, I really feel he would have had a bigger career.
30:43And I use Will Smith because as far as rapper, actor, so, and Will Smith is probably the best
30:49example, you know, outside of maybe Mark Wahlberg and people, a lot of people don't realize that he
30:55was Marky Mark until I have to let them know he was Marky Mark. And it's like, no, he wasn't Mark
31:00Wahlberg, like whatever. But anyway, and I say all that to say that, um, it's just amazing that a lot
31:06of, a lot of these artists out here really have lives where you don't want to go back to, or you don't want
31:13to reminisce about, or, or relive. And even hearing this, like, I didn't think, you know, because of
31:20course he went to school, the performing arts, um, high school in, um, Baltimore, Baltimore. And,
31:26you know, hearing things like that, like those types of things stand out. But then when you hear
31:29about the, the, the worst things that you didn't think of, like I said, these things are even new
31:36to me. Because of course, like I said, I didn't read the book, but, um, like, like I said,
31:41not too late. No, no, no, definitely. Like I said, but you know, too late for the interview,
31:46but not too late period. Cause Oh, you know, let's even say that the book came out, I believe
31:51October 21st, right? Correct. And it's, it's already a bestseller. No, I'm fighting for the
31:57bestseller. It's moving up in that dollar. I'm fighting. It's selling well. Yeah. I could use
32:01the help for real. Yeah. And I know that people can get it on Amazon. Amazon, unfortunately right
32:06now is run out, but they'll probably get them on a weekend, but anywhere else, Barnes and Noble,
32:09your local bookstore, anywhere. Um, this is my life work. This really is my life work.
32:15So it is, um, I did have notes and I haven't even referred to any of them, but because like
32:22I said, it's just a free flowing conversation. Um, like as far as when Park, I guess before
32:31he, before he died, based on the information you received, like the people understand or
32:38speak about his mindset, because as I said, when, when I was around the people that were
32:44around him, they were like, you know, he was more of a good kid than he was a bad kid
32:50in that theory. What I want, what I'm, what I'm asking is like, did anybody have a, a, a,
32:58a pinpoint the type of person he truly was as opposed to who he presented? And the only
33:05reason why I asked that question is because based on my understanding of him at the time,
33:09like he presented, and I know a lot of artists do because I, I've grown up, I grew up in the
33:13Bronx. I came up with like Slick Rick Dana. I came up with so many people. And I know some
33:17people have personas. Um, I didn't know Tupac. We've been in the same parties at the same
33:23time, but I've never talked to him. So, but my understanding is that, you know, he was
33:28not the thug that he portrayed himself to be. Did you ever get that, um, feeling from
33:36any of the conversations you had with the people you, you talked to? Yeah. So I, um, yeah, I
33:41mean, I, I think he was different. I think he was different shapes to different people. And
33:45I don't think any of it was phony. I just think he was different. He was, you know,
33:49you heard the term a lot from a lot of people knew him. He was a little bit of a shapeshifter
33:53and not that it was dishonest, just that he would adjust to the situation he was in. I
33:57mean, when he was a student at the Baltimore school for the arts. And then when he went
34:00his senior, he was a Tam high school in Northern California. He was a kid who would show up with
34:05painted fingernails with a peroxide strip down his fade. He would wear thrift store clothes
34:09with spray paint on it. MC New York. Um, he used to drink water, walk down the hallway,
34:15drink water out of a baby bottle. You know, like he loved, I think a lot of people would
34:21presume like he was just listening to hip hop. The guy loved like the Indigo Girls and Kate
34:24Bush and Peter Gabriel and Randy Travis. I get wide ranges of musical taste throughout his
34:29entire life. I, to me, my favorite Tupac is that too, Tupac. Cause he was just really endearing
34:35and discovering himself. I think when he got to death row, you know, he was in Clinton
34:41and he basically swore off the idea of thug life. He's like, I'm done with this. I'm going
34:45to be kind of who I was meant to be, which is this Panther informed artist. And I think
34:52when he, when he got bailed out and it was Suge Knight who put up the bail money, I think
34:56he felt indebted to Suge Knight. And he felt like, I owe this guy. Like Tupac had a very
35:01close friend named Kendrick Wells, who I spent a lot of time with and Kendrick knew him
35:04for years. Kendrick died, unfortunately, about a year ago, but Kendrick told me, um, he considers
35:10all eyes on me, which I love as an album to be Tupac's least honest album. And I was like,
35:16what do you mean? And he's like, he wrote that album because he knew Suge Knight wanted that album
35:20and he gave Suge and death row the album that was most appropriate for the label and match what
35:27they were asking for. So I just think it's kind of interesting. Like, and I'm not saying that's
35:30a hundred percent true. I think death, uh, all eyes to me is brilliant. And Tupac wrote a lot
35:35of those songs in prison. Like, you know, here's a good one. Serious true story. Suge Knight bails
35:39him out. He's in Dannemore in New York, which is the worst freaking place you could be in Clinton.
35:43He gets out. He flies from there to JFK. He flies cross country JFK to LA lands at LA,
35:51immediately goes to a steakhouse, gets a big ass steak, goes immediately to Can-Am studios. He's
35:57greeted by Suge. He takes a nap for like five hours. He's just exhausted. Takes a nap on the
36:01couch, wakes up first day out of prison, record seven songs, including I ain't mad at you and
36:07ambitions as a rider. Like this was in him some way. And I also think one more thing,
36:13he was fueled by his anger. He had about the quad studio shooting, the blame he put on Biggie.
36:18Biggie tried visiting him at Clinton and, uh, went through Tupac's manager, Watani and Watani went to
36:24Tupac and said, you know, Biggie wants to visit you. I really think you should let him.
36:27And Tupac's response was, fuck that guy. There's no fucking way. I forgive that guy.
36:31So I think he carried a lot of that anger in him when he arrived at death row. So I'm not saying
36:35death row was his personality or wasn't, it was a part of who he was, but he also was a tender soul.
36:41But even in my, in my viewings of him, I, I, I, I've said it and I have friends who would
36:47definitely, um, vouch that I said it, that I think that if Puff had bailed him out,
36:52he would have been a bad boy soldier in whatever direction. So I believe that because like,
36:57you know, some people adapt and, and I want to make it clear. I wasn't, I wasn't making it seem
37:03as if and not, not saying that you had the perception that Pac was being fake. I just think
37:09that, um, I know people have different sides to them. And I think that that's what it was with him,
37:15where, like you say, he, he, I guess a chameleon. Wait, I want to say something seriously crazy.
37:21I don't, there's a movie that my, my wife really likes. This might sound super white.
37:25It's a Gwyneth Paltrow movie called sliding doors where her life goes one way. If she takes,
37:30gets on the train and a totally different way, if she doesn't get on the train. Right.
37:34And it follows both paths. There's a moment in Tupac's life. He's at Clinton and what Tani,
37:40his manager is waiting to meet with him because they have a bail package ready for him. Okay.
37:46And they're waiting for an attorney named Charles Ogletree, who is late. So they're waiting in the
37:50waiting area to go see Tupac. Suge Knight shows up. Uh, what Tani doesn't know who Suge Knight is.
37:57Suge Knight also wants to be, visit Tupac. They're still waiting for Charles Ogletree. So what Tani
38:02lets Suge Knight go first. Suge Knight goes in. Tupac signs the contract. Suge Knight comes out.
38:10What Tani goes in. What Tani is ready to tell him the news. Tupac says, I got some news for you. He
38:16says, what is it? I'm signing with death row. What Tani is like, you're doing what? He's like,
38:20I'm signing with death row. I hope you can roll with that. And he goes, I can't roll with that.
38:24That's not cool. I can't roll with this. Let's say Charles Ogletree was on time. What Tani goes in
38:30first. It's all sealed. Maybe he ignores death row. You're right. He doesn't make that album. Maybe he makes
38:36an album more like the poor righteous teachers. Maybe he makes an album more like tribe called
38:41quest. Maybe it's a, you know, like it is a very much of a sliding doors kind of thing. One thing
38:47happens. You go this way. Another thing happens to go that way. Death row shows up. Suge Knight
38:52was on time. He went in. Tupac followed. And it definitely sounds like it leans more towards
38:59that because at the time, like his life is like kind of like he's in jail. It's like he wants the
39:04career that he already started. And it's like, what else can he do? Because, you know, especially
39:09in this industry, you, you, you, you never know. But, um, yeah, I, I, I, I believe in
39:15that theory. Um, you know, yeah, that's an interesting, I've never thought of it that
39:19way, but it's really is interesting. Let's say like, I don't know. Arista bears a bells
39:24amount. Right. And Arista is like trying to start hip hop. Maybe he puts out some really
39:28bad young MC type album. I doubt it, but I'm just saying like, that's obviously not going
39:32to happen. But like, I do think being bailed out by death row, obviously played a major impact
39:37in his future because he's bailed out by death row. He starts rolling with death
39:41row. Death row is mob Piru affiliated. They go to Vegas. There's Orlando Anderson, the
39:46Compton Crip who stole, you know, mob gene, um, Trayvon Lane's chain. Yeah. Now
39:55Tupac's dead. I mean, it sucks that he's dead. He shouldn't be dead. It's a stupid
39:57death, you know? Yep. So I, um, I have a couple more minutes with you. Okay. How have
40:05the reaction and I know the book just came out, so I'm pretty sure there'll be more reactions
40:10as more people get to it, but how has the outside reaction been to you not only writing
40:16the book, but, um, I guess just the book in general, you know, what has helped me a lot
40:21is finding Brenda's baby. That gave me a lot of cred early on where it's like, cause you
40:26know, about a few months ago, I went on a podcast. It wasn't even about Tupac and I started trending
40:32for the wrong reason. I was on a podcast and they, it was a two hour podcast about my life
40:36for two and a half hours, but they asked me about Tupac and I said something really like
40:40flippant and without thought where I was like, you know, he wasn't that good at fighting and
40:43he wasn't that good with a gun. It was kind of all an act. Right. And it was almost like
40:47I wasn't even thinking as I was talking and everyone does that. I just happened to do it
40:51on a stupid podcast. Thing went viral culture vulture. Who the fuck is this guy? Fuck you.
40:57Death threats, several death threats. And like, I really, number one, I needed to go. I actually
41:02needed to go through that. I said to my wife, like a few minutes ago, actually, I needed to go
41:06through that because talking about Tupac, isn't talking about Walter Payton or Brett Favre or the
41:12Mets. He's talking about someone who means a lot to a lot of people and a lot of people who don't
41:18look like me. And you cannot be disrespectful of that. And you cannot be flip about that. And I was
41:23right. So I needed that. Yeah. And I feel like since I'm out and since people have heard the
41:29Brenda story, me going to get the letters in Nebraska, the depths I've gone to the EMT,
41:35I think I've been given a little bit of a second chance. And the reaction has been very good.
41:40And plus, now you have a different audience because the people that didn't see or hear that
41:45interview is for them, it's just, okay, what's this? And what is it about? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
41:52I think, like I said, I guess I have so many things, but at the same time, it's like, we definitely
41:59talked enough and I do appreciate, you know, you taking the time to, you know, talk to me. And
42:06I know I did a better, we had a better conversation than you had with Chuck, because I'm just a better
42:12person than Chuck. You know what? Let me tell you about Chuck Kreekmer. Let me tell you about Chuck Kreekmer.
42:16I was the, I was the editor in chief of the student newspaper, the university of Delaware
42:22review. Chuck Kreekmer was a cartoonist. He wasn't a writer at that point at the paper,
42:26mainly he was a cartoonist. Chuck recently told me, I didn't know this. He did cartoons like in
42:31the editorial section, he put in secret messages for black students. Now that I didn't even know
42:39encoded in the cartoons, I had no idea any of this was going on. University of Delaware
42:44is like a very white school. It just is like a lot of white kids. And he's basically writing
42:48like, save me, you know, like letters to his fellow black students. And I'm like, Chuck,
42:53what the fuck? I just learned that like a week ago. It was really funny. He's a great guy.
42:57He's a great guy.
42:58That's like LL with the FUBU and GAP.
43:02Yeah.
43:04So for the future, after doing this, because of course, this is going to be for a while,
43:10but I always know that sometimes people always have, you've had this Tupac thought in your brain
43:14for years. Is there someone else or something else that you would want to do that you haven't
43:19yet started or haven't yet thought about, or maybe have been thinking about?
43:23Well, you know, now that I'm really tapped into hip hop and now that I'm really tapped
43:27into sort of black culture, I think I have to write the Vanilla Ice book. I think everyone
43:32is clamoring for the Robert Van Winkle story. My, you know, the greatest rapper of all time.
43:37Yeah. Yeah.
43:38Will you have me back on for that? Can I come back on for that one?
43:42That would work. In fact, yes. Yes. Because I would love to see the reactions and, you know.
43:50Maybe the snow. I'm just going to do white rappers. I'm going to do the snow book after that.
43:53Is that good? And then maybe the color me bad, the best edition of color me bad. I could,
43:57I mean, they weren't bad, but you know, um, actually, I don't know yet.
44:00I can put you in touch with MC search.
44:02I know. I'm very good. Wait, I'm very good friends with Pete. Nice.
44:06Well, that's funny. Cause I, I, me and search went to high school together and they went
44:10to college together. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, funny. Yeah. It all comes back to New York.
44:13I don't know.
44:14Friends because of who our friends are in the connections. So I know Keith because, um,
44:20he was a baseball writer for a while after he stopped hip hop.
44:24Yeah. Yeah. I know. He, he did a trading card and all of that. Yeah. Yeah.
44:28All right. Um, I don't know what I'm writing next. Actually. I'm not really sure. I'm kind
44:31of just playing this out and seeing where it takes me. Yeah. Cool. Well, good luck with any
44:36and everything that you do decide to do. And, and people have been telling me for years,
44:40I need to write a book, but I'm like, I, I, I barely don't want to write an article,
44:44you know, I'm just going to give you an offer right now. I don't make this offer to many
44:49people. If you want to steal the vanilla ice idea, it's all yours. You want to write the
44:53book? It's all yours. Let me think about it because like, you know, the backlash, I could
44:57probably handle the backlash. It's just a matter of the, the research aspects that I would have
45:01to do in order to get to it. You know, the, the, the in depth, the way that you did for
45:05Tupac. So, you know, I got to make sure I have the spoons. The whole ice story. You need
45:10the whole Rob Van Winkle story in depth. Exactly. Once again, Mr. Pearlman. Thanks.
45:16Once again, this is a big set industry co side, the name of the book. Only God can judge
45:20me. The many lives of Tupac Shakur. I would say go to Amazon, but you have to wait. So
45:25no, they, I think they're getting books in tomorrow. So wherever you buy books, it's
45:29available. Yeah. I was going to say, wherever you buy books and thanks once again. And like
45:34I said, good luck with anything that you do going forward. And there was something else
45:40I was just about to say, and I just lost my thought. I do that all the time because
45:42I'm old. I do too. Cause I'm old. But once again, and enjoy your holidays and enjoy your
45:49family. Just enjoy life in general. And once again, thanks for giving me the opportunity
45:54to speak to you. And I did enjoy the conversation. And like I said, I know we could have gone
45:58on for another two hours or so because. I'm always here. I got no life. So if you don't
46:03want to talk again, just hit me up. I'm here. Definitely. Once again, thanks. And thanks
46:07to Chuck Creekmore for, um, making it happen. And, um, so next time everyone, this is the
46:15industry co-sign big said, and thank you, Mr. Oh. And the thing is when people, when
46:20I call people by Mr. And then they laugh and people like, why do you, I'm like, that's
46:24just me being respectful. So people are like, you know, you make me sound old when you say
46:29Mr. This, I'm like, no, I'm just being respectful. But anyway, also you have a gray beard, so you
46:33can't make me sound too old. Although I just gave it so it doesn't show up. So I just want
46:37to say, Mr. Big said, thank you for having me on. I appreciate it.
46:39No problem. And until the next time you take it easy and enjoy the weekend. And anybody who's
46:45looking at this any other time, enjoy your day, night, morning, whatever it is. Until
46:50next time. Peace.
46:51Okay.
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