- 3 months ago
What does ASEAN membership mean for Timor-Leste? What are their priorities, contributions and how can their voice be amplified within the regional bloc?
Catch the exclusive interview with the President of Timor-Leste, José Ramos-Horta on Agenda AWANI, tonight at 8.30pm
Catch the exclusive interview with the President of Timor-Leste, José Ramos-Horta on Agenda AWANI, tonight at 8.30pm
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00:00Terima kasih kerana menikmati kami.
00:08Terima kasih.
00:10Ia telah berjalan yang panjang untuk pemimpin ASEAN.
00:13Kamu mempunyai pendidikan anda pada tahun 2002.
00:16Kamu memulakan pembinaan anda untuk menjadi pemimpin ASEAN selama 15 tahun lalu.
00:21Bagaimana rasanya?
00:23Bagaimana rasanya dengan strategi dan simbolik untuk Timor Leste?
00:26Well, actually, we all talk about, we started in 2011,
00:34but in reality started much earlier than that.
00:392011 was the formality when myself,
00:45I submitted a letter to the then president of Indonesia,
00:51Silva Mawidiono, in my capacity as president.
00:57On the government side,
00:59I presume the foreign minister was the one who did it,
01:05because that's the channel, the formality.
01:08but not only that, I spent a lot of time in 2011,
01:14in Jakarta, on the eve of the summit in Bali,
01:20mobilizing public opinion in Indonesia, media,
01:25and all the media, and all the media joined.
01:29Tempo Television, Tempo Online, Tempo Magazine,
01:33Compass, Jakarta Post, all the media.
01:38So when they met in Bali, there was a lot of public talk about it in Indonesia, in 2011.
01:48But we go even before that, the moment I took over as foreign minister,
01:58in Timor Leste, in 2002.
02:03In 2003, I talked with UNDP, United Nations Development Program,
02:09to please search for a senior ASEAN diplomat,
02:16to come to Timor Leste, to work in my foreign ministry,
02:22to start training our people on ASEAN matters.
02:28UNDP promptly agreed,
02:32and through a Malaysian, who was then chief of staff,
02:39to the head of the United Nations Mission in Timor Leste,
02:43Mr. Parang, now he passed away,
02:49who then recommended a senior Malaysian diplomat, Ambassador Kadir,
02:57very senior.
02:59He was the one who was hired, contracted,
03:02to begin working in my foreign ministry in 2003.
03:08So that's when the process started.
03:11But yes, because the country faced enormous challenges,
03:16many other priorities.
03:19Then a security, political crisis in 2006,
03:24political instability.
03:27So in reality, only starting in 2009, 2010,
03:36when the new government under Mr. Shannano,
03:40mobilized resources and political leadership
03:45to begin major infrastructure development in the country.
03:50because you cannot talk about it.
03:52We want to join ASEAN in a vacuum.
03:55So then all these years, after independence, 24 years,
04:00we joined ASEAN formally as 11th member.
04:04It is the realization of a strategic goal.
04:09people say romantically a dream.
04:13Well, people may dream, but this was a strategic goal.
04:19It is not a dream.
04:21It is a strategic goal, well thought out, well planned, well designed
04:27to achieve ASEAN membership.
04:31I am sure it is.
04:32But on a human level, surely you are a bit sentimental about this.
04:37Because we have talked to people of Timor-Leste,
04:39and they are very sentimental about joining the family.
04:41And when you look back on your experiences during the resistance,
04:45going through a lot of hardships, going to the jungles even,
04:49looking back at all that, surely you must be a bit sentimental.
04:52No, obviously.
04:54Mr. Shanann, who is the real leader of the country.
04:58He is the one who brought us from the ashes of many defeats in the struggle
05:05into independence.
05:08And he is normally very, usually very emotional.
05:13He cries for small things.
05:15And yes, a very sensitive person.
05:19And yes, he was very emotional yesterday.
05:24And I give all credit to him.
05:29It would be unfair not to say so.
05:34Because without him, we would not be independent in 2002.
05:40Yes, of course, I was standing there, no one saw me crying.
05:46because I wasn't crying.
05:49But internally, I was happy.
05:53Of course.
05:54And grateful to Anwar Ibrahim, who made his ASEAN leadership one of the priorities
06:07is Timor-Leste ASEAN accession in his terms.
06:12He told me, Anwar told me, when I was here a few months ago.
06:17He said, if Timor-Leste doesn't join ASEAN this year, I will see it as a personal failure.
06:30But not only Anwar, the Indonesian side, Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam, Laos, everyone.
06:42The Sultan of Brunei has been supporting us since day one.
06:47Brunei opened embassy already 15 years ago at least.
06:53And when people asked the Sultan, why open an embassy in Timor-Leste?
07:00At the time, we had no economy whatsoever.
07:05But he responded, because Timor-Leste is going to join ASEAN.
07:10So we go there now to help them.
07:12Speaking of which, now it has happened today.
07:15What value will you do to contribute to ASEAN?
07:18Any specific factors that you are prioritising for ASEAN integration?
07:22One, I would say, education, education, and more education.
07:29We have done a lot in educating the people, in giving opportunities to people,
07:35because I give you just a couple of facts.
07:38In 2002, we had 21 medical doctors.
07:43Today we have 1,400.
07:46In 2002, we had one Timor-Leste with a PhD.
07:51In the whole country?
07:52In the whole country.
07:53In the whole country.
07:54Today we have 210 PhDs.
07:57We have 1,700 with master's degrees.
08:02We had one university in 2002.
08:04Today we have 18 universities.
08:08In 2002 we had 3,000 people in a university.
08:13today at least 50,000.
08:16Some figures point even higher, 60,000.
08:20So we have made progress, but still we are very young country, young population.
08:25The future of a country, the success of a country rests on educated people.
08:32So the priority is to get more young Timorese to come to Malaysia, Singapore, Thailand, Brunei,
08:42everywhere to study.
08:44No doubt it's going to take time.
08:46For us, it took a lot of time as well when we obtained independence in 1957.
08:51But right now, short term, are there any sectors that you think can contribute almost immediately
08:58to ASEAN?
08:59One is job creation.
09:04Create employment.
09:05And how do you do that?
09:07It cannot be the state, the government giving jobs to people, which has been the case in Timorese.
09:14The biggest employer in Timorese is the government, the state.
09:18We have to reform our civil administration, reduce by at least 50% the number of civil servants,
09:28have an automated system, digitalize everything.
09:35But at the same time, all of these take time.
09:39What we need is investments from Southeast Asia, investments from Malaysia, from Singapore.
09:46There is already a major investment, more than a 20-story hotel going up,
09:51should be ready by the end of next year, from Singapore, a Singaporean investor.
09:57already the government signed off the contracts for the redevelopment of the DIL International Airport.
10:08Two Indonesia state companies won the contract.
10:12Work should have started already by now, to be ready by 2027-28.
10:19And a giant Japanese shipyard, ship building, all that is starting preparation to set up a shipyard in Timorese,
10:30that will employ 4,000 people, will produce 10 ships a year.
10:37In 2008, the first ship will come out of that shipyard.
10:43After that, it will be 10 a year.
10:46A Korean company, cosmetic industry, considering relocating to Timorese.
10:56Malaysia, Malaysia is for me one favorite destination in our effort to capture investments,
11:09whether in agriculture, food industry, in electronics, digitalization, pharmaceuticals, hospitals.
11:21We already have it.
11:24Malaysia actually collects several million dollars from us every year.
11:30We send in patients here, the hospital here in Kuala Lumpur.
11:36Timorese, diabetes cases, cancer patients, many, they come here under our government cost.
11:46And with ascension into ASEAN, we expect the integration only to be faster and more comprehensive moving forward.
11:56But as a small country, do you foresee any challenges to make your voice heard in ASEAN's consensus-based system?
12:07Well, the voices of countries, how influential, able to shape events, shape policies, do not come from the size of the country.
12:26If it were the size of the country that determined, well, India and China would dominate the whole world debate.
12:35And no, we in ASEAN, Timor-Leste could contribute in shaping decisions, policies, with intelligent, creative ideas on, for instance,
12:54how to prevent, in the future, conflicts from occurring, as it happened in Cambodia and Thailand and the massive problem of Myanmar.
13:09Yes, that's where a small country that has no enemies, we are not rival to anyone.
13:18Can you imagine, we would be a rival to Malaysia?
13:23It's very interesting you bring up that point because one of the most common issues when we talk about conflicts in Southeast Asia is we talk about the border disputes in the South China Sea which I'm sure you are aware involve a lot of ASEAN countries.
13:50As a new member of ASEAN, having been through decades of conflict, and now coming out on the other side of it, not just better, but with good relations with countries like Indonesia, I think that's a lesson to be learned.
14:06How would you impart your experience, having been through that conflict, into the issue of the South China Sea conflict among ASEAN countries?
14:18We have, as you mentioned, exceptionally good relations with Indonesia, but that relationship that is exemplary takes two to realize it.
14:34Like in a beautiful dance waltz, in a Vienna waltz, you take two, at least, to dance a beautiful tango.
14:49So, it takes two countries, two leaderships with the same mind, the same determination to leave the past where it should be, focus on healing wounds from past conflict, and take concrete action to regain trust, confidence, etc.
15:13So, that's what we did.
15:16And when the Timur side, under Mr. Shanana's leadership, invested on that, decided on that, we must move forward.
15:26We must not allow ourselves to be hostage of the tragic past.
15:31Because the past was not only negative.
15:35There were also great human experiences during Indonesian time.
15:41And the Indonesian people, extraordinary people, extraordinary society, instead of feeling resentful, spiteful,
15:53that Timur didn't want to stay on with Indonesia, no, they accepted our hand of friendship,
16:01and went out of their way to help Timur stabilizing.
16:06We have 10,000 Timorese students in Indonesia, most of them with local school fees.
16:15They don't pay us foreigners, they pay us Indonesians.
16:19But they are Timorese, Timorese passport.
16:22One university alone, Gajamada, graduated 3,000 Timorese students in the last 20 years.
16:30So, acceptable relationship.
16:33But it always takes the leadership of all involved to realize that.
16:39I know you don't like to romanticize strategic diplomacy.
16:44But I think that's a very good case to romanticize.
16:46I know you're not a very emotional guy.
16:48But on a human level, that's kind of beautiful, isn't it?
16:50Because enemies become friends, not just friends, but close friends.
16:53And now you're family, part of the ASEAN family.
16:56And I want to ask you a bit, because we don't have much time, I want to ask you about democracy.
17:01Because you, despite being a very young country, you are one of the most prominent democracies in Southeast Asia.
17:08So, how do you plan to promote democratic governance within ASEAN's very diverse political systems?
17:17Let me tell you this.
17:19If it's up to me, I would tell my compatriots.
17:25because I said, listen, we focus on consolidating our democracy.
17:35We focus on consolidating peace in our country.
17:40And do not try even to think about lecturing anyone.
17:45Because I have to say, I'm also disillusioned with the so-called democracies around the world.
17:52Do you think I'm really, nowadays, very impressed with European democracies?
17:59Not one bit.
18:01And Singapore is a huge social, economic, political success.
18:12Is it thanks to democracy?
18:14Malaysia?
18:16Was it the democracy that built all of this?
18:20You know, when you look at Malaysia, look around, you are not in a third world country.
18:25And that's not only the fancy hotels, no, the hospitals, the train system, the public transportation system, the airline system, the conditions of the people.
18:38Well, I don't think that it was a magic wand of democracy.
18:42It is leadership that created.
18:45And the leadership can be a semi-authoritarian country, authoritarian country.
18:52and look at the South Korea.
18:55It started off the modernization of South Korea with dictator Park.
19:00It was he who initiated the incredible transformation of South Korea.
19:06It doesn't mean I'm going to abandon democracy.
19:09Yes.
19:10I'm just wondering now whether you're going to get some flack about democratic democracy.
19:15I think I get your point.
19:17And we're doing well with democracy.
19:19The country is very democratic, very open.
19:22We have one of the freest media in the world, no doubt about that.
19:26But because we want it.
19:28Not because we think, oh, this is the only perfect system in the world.
19:33No, I'm sorry, it is not.
19:35And because there are, democracy is so chaotic, and then end up rejected by the people.
19:42It's like the famous saying by Winston Churchill, democracy is the worst system of government that we have except for all the other ones.
19:49Except for all the other ones.
19:50I think that tells you all you need to know.
19:52Finally, Mr. President, what message would you like to send to the people of ASEAN who view Timor-Leste now as the new kid on the block?
20:01What do you say to them?
20:02My humble, sincere advice to ASEAN leaders in particular, keep ASEAN very united.
20:15Do not fall into the temptation of taking sides in the big power rivalries.
20:27Don't venture out alone on the issues that belong to all ASEAN.
20:37Like when you deal with the South China Sea.
20:40One country going alone, or one country that feels abandoned by others.
20:52It is the beginning of the unravelling of ASEAN.
20:57ASEAN is important because it is 11 countries.
21:04It is because of the incredible waterway that ASEAN control.
21:11the Malacca Strait, South China Sea.
21:14The trillions of dollars that cross and go through the Malacca Strait, Asia Pacific, and so on.
21:24All countries that come here for summits.
21:27All countries, big and smaller, engage in the partnership dialogue with ASEAN.
21:34because of its economic dynamics.
21:37Because 700 million people is still a lot.
21:40Trillions of dollars that GDP.
21:43And it is geostrategic importance.
21:46But if they are divided over the issues of South China Sea and the big power rivalry, then it's unravelling.
21:58So that's number one.
22:00We have to preserve that.
22:02Strengthen mechanisms of early warning prevention of conflict.
22:10Prevention of conflict, where, how?
22:13Well, one, potential conflict, South China Sea.
22:17So how can we act now to prevent a year from now, six months from now, two years from now, something suddenly erupt?
22:26So think through things.
22:28Think through why Myanmar is what it is today.
22:32Why the conflict, eruption of conflict, was not prevented.
22:37Because lack of mechanisms, arrangements, so that ASEAN brothers, leaders can talk to their fellow ASEAN about,
22:46please, don't do this.
22:49Let's help each other out.
22:52So something like that has to happen.
22:54That's my advice.
22:55Lastly, Mr. President, we just witnessed history this session yesterday and the day before with the ascension of Timor-Leste.
23:02And I think as far as ASEAN goes, the next historical chapter we'll see is when you hold your first ASEAN Summit.
23:09That will be, I think, by turn in 2029?
23:12Yeah, it looks like.
23:14Will we see an ASEAN Summit in Timor-Leste in 2029?
23:17I doubt that.
23:19Oh, why not?
23:20I doubt that in four years time we'll be ready because of infrastructure.
23:29When I look at the summit here, I have to say congratulations to Malaysia.
23:36What an exceptional summit.
23:40in substance of the summit, but also in all the arrangements.
23:45Incredibly artistic, incredibly welcoming, effective, professional, and so on.
23:55Great summit.
23:58Congratulations.
23:59I don't think we can do it even by, you know, we cannot even do half of it.
24:05So we have to be realistic.
24:07Yeah, we will work hard.
24:09We can host some ministerial meetings, foreign ministerial meetings.
24:14Not now.
24:15Even now we cannot hold an ASEAN ministerial meeting.
24:18Not only because of infrastructure, but because of human resources.
24:22So, maybe ten years from now, yes, we could.
24:33If everything improves, if peace continues to prevail in my country, if we work harder
24:41on economic growth, on facilitating investments in a country, in eliminating stifling bureaucracy,
24:51incompetence, irresponsibility, then yes, in ten years we will do a great summit.
25:01But by then, maybe I will no longer be anywhere in the politics of Timor-Leste.
25:10No doubt you will still be a figurehead.
25:12No.
25:13No matter what position you hold or don't hold, right?
25:16Yeah.
25:17You will always be influential.
25:18No, what I will do, I will talk to Dr. Mahathir.
25:21Can you tell me the prescription?
25:24Good point.
25:28He is a hundred years old alive and kicking.
25:30Thank you.
25:31Once again, thank you Mr. President and welcome to the ASEAN family.
25:33Thank you.
25:34Thank you.
25:35Thank you.
25:36//
25:41.
25:43.
25:49.
25:51.
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