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00:00Give me a state of the business right now.
00:02Is it positive?
00:02Is it negative?
00:03Is it healthy?
00:04Stadium?
00:04State of the music business.
00:07So I had my colleagues at Polestar, which some of you may have heard of.
00:12It's not Bloomberg, but we try.
00:15I can just wrap through a few little ones that are actually accurate.
00:18Okay.
00:18So this is not opinions.
00:21So live entertainment is the number one entertainment choice for consumers and is thriving even more than ever.
00:28The top artists are playing bigger and bigger venues, selling more tickets with higher price points than ever before.
00:35Demand exceeds supply, creating a public clamor for the government to act.
00:42I believe that the root of the problem is an unregulated secondary market, which drives up ticket prices and contributes to an even greater scarcity of face value tickets.
00:53It's getting harder and harder for smaller acts to sell out, even the smallest of venues.
01:01At over 30,000 capacity stadiums, top artists basically have 4.1% unsold tickets, whereas the smaller venues have 20% unsold tickets.
01:15All genres are killing it, basically.
01:20I know you made the rap comment, but...
01:22I know rap has not had a great year.
01:25That's a function of who toured, how it was packaged, where it played.
01:28Something I noticed this week, you know, for the first time, Coachella, mid-release, you know, four months earlier than usual.
01:39And then sold out, right?
01:40First time in three years.
01:42That bodes well for the festival market.
01:45Outdoors, both stadiums and festival.
01:47Greater unpredictability, severity of weather, and therefore the intended cost of insurance, if you can even get it, is causing us managers to think about how and where to play.
02:00I have a question about something you said earlier, because I know this is something you feel passionately about.
02:05So if you could wave your magic wand and fix scalping overnight, or fix the...
02:09Which you described as a secondary market.
02:11What's the first thing you'd do?
02:13Well, I'll just give California as an example.
02:17There was a bill, it feels like it was about 18 years ago, and through the Music Artists Coalition, which is a wonderful organization that we helped form, we got close on a bill.
02:29Okay?
02:29And the key components were exempt sports, because all the sports team owners didn't want to have caps on it.
02:37We said, just deal with music.
02:39We said, first thing we'd like to do is make it illegal to pre-list tickets you don't own.
02:45There was a merger...
02:48I mean, there was a rumor in the New York Post that Harry Styles was going to the sphere, which is totally untrue.
02:53Harry doesn't like to comment on anything.
02:55He's trying to be quiet.
02:57He's trying to be away.
02:58We finally...
02:59You know, my son Jeffrey, who manages them, finally had to comment, because fans were paying deposits to scalpers and secondary people.
03:08So it's totally legal to pre-list.
03:10We couldn't even get pre-listing through.
03:12Okay?
03:13The Golden State Warriors and the San Francisco 49ers, at the end of the day, even killed that.
03:19StubHub and others, very well-organized lobbies.
03:23Okay?
03:23So even...
03:25I mean, I defy anybody to tell me why it's illogical that we couldn't put a cap on just music tickets.
03:32Let the sports...
03:33Sports is different, but we can't get it done.
03:36You tell me.
03:38You're the one...
03:39You'd think so.
03:42Do you...
03:44Does that mean that you think that the average cost of a ticket would just go up forever?
03:50I had...
03:50On the way over, I had a friend call me, say, I'm going to the Eagles at the sphere in November, blah, blah, blah.
03:54He says, I got four great tickets, but they cost me...
03:56How could you charge me $1,700 a piece?
03:59I said, where in the hell did you pay...
04:00It's a $300 face ticket.
04:02He bought the ticket on StubHub, of course.
04:04Bought the tickets on StubHub.
04:05I said, go resell them.
04:08Call me.
04:08I have tickets held.
04:09I'll sell you the $300 face value tickets.
04:12But, no, but, look, Platinum, as an axe manager, Platinum is working.
04:17Okay?
04:17But you can't take too many Platinum tickets.
04:21But it...
04:21You know, and we cap the Platinum tickets, whereas none of the secondaries will do that.
04:28And, by the way, they sell tickets they don't...
04:30I'm not...
04:31It's not just of it.
04:31Across all the secondaries, they sell tickets they don't have a lot of times, and then they're
04:36able to get them.
04:37It's like shorting a stock, then they go up to buy in stock.
04:40But, you know, regularly in our venues, we have to hold back relocation seats, because
04:45inevitably a guy's going to show up with a ticket from one of the secondaries for a seat
04:50that's not his.
04:51So, you've brought up the Sphere a couple times.
04:55Can you explain both what you do with the Sphere and also the history of you and Jim
05:01Dolan?
05:02Yeah.
05:03Jim Dolan is my closest friend, or one of my closest friends.
05:09He's a...
05:09The guy is a misunderstood genius.
05:12I think I'm one of the people that understands it.
05:15But, originally, he and I were in a partnership, and I helped get that site from Sheldon Adelson
05:23and get it entitled to build.
05:25And we were going to build...
05:26The idea was to build the forum, which we owned at the time, in Las Vegas.
05:31And he said to me, no, no, the future is not in rectangular buildings.
05:36The future is in spheres and immersive.
05:38And the guy, you know, and he said, and it's going to be mostly...
05:44The money's going to be driven mostly by films.
05:47Okay?
05:47I mean, he has been right every step of the way.
05:50It may have cost more than he wanted it to cost, but it is...
05:55If any of you should get down there to see Wizard of Oz, because it changes everything.
05:59So, I do a lot of things with Jim.
06:03Many of the acts that play at the Sphere there, I do help...
06:07You know, I'm a close advisor, I guess is the word.
06:10I was the one that had him...
06:11Introduced him to Phil Jackson, so I don't go to New York restaurants around Nick fans.
06:19What do you think is going to be the next movie after Wizard of Oz?
06:23Well, he's...
06:24I don't think he's announced, but he may have announced in the last earnings.
06:27He's shooting an original movie.
06:29I'd call it a very stunt...
06:31This is the action sports one?
06:33Yes.
06:34It's an action sports movie.
06:35After that, I was involved in the negotiating and the shearing of the rights for Wizard of Oz.
06:46And there's...
06:47You know, I'm getting calls and he's getting calls from many studios.
06:52You know, you can't...
06:53As a movie studio, you can't call up and say...
06:55You know, Bob Iger can't call up and say,
06:57I'm going to make Star Wars and rent the theater.
06:59You know, Jim has a thing called Sphere Studios out here in Burbank,
07:02and he actually makes the films.
07:05So, I mean, he's interested in licensing IP to make films,
07:09that he's going to make the films, own the films.
07:13Goes from the ground in Abu Dhabi with the second Sphere on January 1st.
07:17Our company, Oakview, is the project manager,
07:20and then we will run and book the building once it's open.
07:25Are we going to get other spheres in the U.S.?
07:27He announced, I think, in his last meeting that...
07:30And we, again, at Oakview, are in conversations with him to do smaller spheres
07:35in more 5,000-seat capacity.
07:38We'd like to see four of those.
07:41Do you have a city you most want to see it in?
07:44Me, personally.
07:45There's a great site in Chicago, if the city could get it together.
07:49You know, to me, the naturals are...
07:51Oh, gosh, Austin, Texas, something in Texas, obviously Orlando.
07:59New York would be great, and Jim's been trying there for a long time.
08:02I think we have a poll question for the audience,
08:05because to your Harry Styles earlier...
08:09The next musician or spirit the artist should be...
08:13Should be?
08:14What's that mean?
08:16Who would people want to see?
08:17Oh, I don't manage any of those, so I don't give a shit.
08:21I would guess if you took...
08:25I would guess if you took a...
08:27Look, we don't know.
08:29We haven't gotten a really young artist in there yet to know,
08:32but, you know, I would think if you took a poll, it would come up...
08:35Harry Styles, Taylor Swift, BTS would be the three that I think, on numbers-wise,
08:41if you took a poll of the people who have gone to the sphere
08:45and seen U2 and the Eagles and people like that,
08:48it would probably come up, like, Fleetwood Mac, Bruce Springsteen, U2 again.
08:57Okay, Beyonce wins, but Bruce...
08:58Would Bruce do it?
08:59Have you talked to Bruce about it?
09:00Would Bruce do it?
09:04I don't know.
09:04I was with Paul McCartney at the sphere the other night.
09:06I think he'd be great there if, you know, he wanted to do it.
09:11I don't know if Bruce would do it.
09:12Yeah.
09:13I haven't had the conversation.
09:14You talked about management, which is, I think, what you're still best known for, artist management.
09:20Right.
09:20Who's been the most difficult artist to manage over your career?
09:25Oh, listen, you can't kiss and tell.
09:31Listen, I will tell you that I have peers in the management business that have always said,
09:37gosh, it's so hard, and said, we actually really like these people.
09:41They're our friends, and we have admiration for them,
09:43and there's, you know, it's easier to talk about, you know, the great ones
09:47than the ones that are really, you know, but every one of them is a bit different.
09:53That's what makes them creative.
09:55You, um, have you seen anyone kind of command culture in the way that Taylor Swift has as
10:05a musician over the last few years?
10:09No.
10:09I mean, she, you know, she's the Beatles.
10:12And if...
10:13She's our Beatles.
10:14You know, I do think Harry Styles has come close, and, and, and, you know, we'll see...
10:18You're not just saying that because he's...
10:19No, no, he, you know, he did, you know, the, but I think he's been away for a while.
10:25Not exactly sure when, when he'll be back, but, um, of everyone out there,
10:30and it's not just because my son manages him, I think he has the potential.
10:33I think he's going to be a lot bigger this time around, if that's possible.
10:37How have we, we talked, I talked a little bit with Kinsel about the sort of the Lucy
10:41and Elliot relationship, and I'm curious, as someone who is sort of in the process of
10:46handing over parts of your business to your son,
10:48how do you approach sort of training him and passing it off
10:52and making sure that he's not, like, some entitled brat
10:55because his dad's such a big...
10:56Um, listen, Jeffrey's, um, uh, you know, I didn't hand off anything.
11:03You know, he, uh, he's, you know, as a father, the greatest thing you can have is,
11:08you know, you actually, you know, he, he's turned into as good a manager
11:12or the best manager I've seen.
11:14I'd trust him more with the career than I would me at this point.
11:18Um, but, but it's, uh, it's a great dynamic.
11:21You know, one thing, you know, I'm, I'm not that young anymore, believe it or not.
11:24And one thing that keeps me working is having my son and, and others at the company.
11:28Yeah.
11:29Well, you also have the rare music company other than you run by two women.
11:33And they're both here today to make sure I don't put my foot in my mouth.
11:36Um, you guys started a business to buy catalogs, manage estates, I call it iconic, right?
11:42Correct.
11:43Um, what's the most valuable catalog in the world?
11:47Ooh.
11:49I normally would have said Beatles, but I'm not sure that's true anymore.
11:56You know, you, you gotta, you gotta maybe say Taylor at this point.
11:59Um, so you have, uh, David Crosby, or?
12:04Um, we're, you know, look, we're, we're a private company, but some, the press has.
12:08Beach Boys.
12:09Beach Boys.
12:10Rod Stewart.
12:10Crosby, Stills, and Nash.
12:12Linda Ronstadt.
12:13Rod Stewart.
12:14Um, I, you know, I don't know if it's public.
12:17We recently, uh, acquired a chunk of the Sinatra estate.
12:21Uh, we have all the Rat Pack.
12:22We have Dean Martin.
12:23We have, we're very diverse.
12:25We have Cher.
12:25And so what, when you take something like Sinatra and the Rat Pack, something that,
12:31iconic, but not, to, to the name of your company, but not contemporarily kind of cool.
12:36That's what people are talking about.
12:37You know, iconic, you know, iconic for me connotates our friends, clients, you know, it's just,
12:44you know, as, as you do these polls, we think it's iconic.
12:48Yeah.
12:48We're interested.
12:49So how do you.
12:49It's not just, it's just not, um, just not music type.
12:53But, um, you know, these estates are, um, badly managed.
12:58Um, you know, it, it's great for estate planning for some of these older artists, especially.
13:03So how do you take a Beach Boys or a Frank Sinatra and make it cool again?
13:07Well, in the case, in the case of the Beach Boys, uh, you probably, you know, may or may,
13:11you know, there was a, a Grammys, uh, tribute television show on CBS.
13:15There was a, uh, uh, uh, Frank Marshall produced, directed Beach Boys special, which did big numbers.
13:23Um, the Beach Boys are up over double since we got involved with them.
13:27In terms of streaming, in terms of revenue, everything.
13:29Yeah, general, revenue, yeah.
13:32Yeah.
13:33Um, you have built a bunch of different businesses under the, kind of.
13:39Yeah, no attention span.
13:41Umbrella.
13:42Um, I think one that doesn't get a lot of attention that you, that is worth more than $3 billion
13:47is GMR, your, your performing rights organization.
13:50Yes.
13:51How do you build a $3 billion music business in, like, eight years that very few people seem
13:56to know about?
13:58Um, well, it, it's not a very sexy business.
14:00It was in the performing rights area.
14:02The company, um, we, we recognized that there was a hole in the market.
14:07You had ASCAP and BMI, two regulated consent decree-laden companies that signed everybody,
14:13but there was nobody, um, serving the premium customer.
14:16And we believed, as in everywhere else, you wouldn't have the same ticket price for every act.
14:21Why should you be able to license an Eagle song for the same amount of money as some new song
14:26that, that just came on the charts?
14:28So, um, it's, you know, I believe GMR is probably about 220 riders versus a million ASCAP or BMI riders.
14:36So it's, it's set to serve a specific, um, market.
14:40The company, the company actually started because, um, I would call up ASCAP, my friend at ASCAP,
14:47Randy Grimmett, who founded GMR with us and say, Eagles, will they make more money at ASCAP or BMI?
14:53And he would tell me, because you don't get any royalty statements.
14:55You can't audit.
14:56There's no transparency.
14:57So it was kind of a no, a no-brainer.
15:00And then the straw that broke the camel's back is there was a satanic minister playing Eagles Hotel California backwards on YouTube,
15:08on his, on his YouTube thing.
15:10Um, and then we, you issue a takedown and then it pops back up.
15:14And then YouTube says, well, you've got to have your lawyer come to us.
15:18And then the lawyer sends.
15:19And then he says, oh, they have a license.
15:21They had gotten a license.
15:22Uh, PRS in London had gotten a license from, uh, the U.S.
15:27and issued a blanket license.
15:29So if you wanted to quote a lyric from Hotel California in your, in your college yearbook,
15:34you need a permission, but you can run to London because BMI gave them a right.
15:38And you can be a satanic minister, pay 12 cents and play the Eagles song backwards on YouTube,
15:44who, of course, are complicit in every major crime against ours.
15:49Um, you're one of the few people in the, I feel like over the last decade,
15:55the music business went from hating YouTube to liking YouTube.
15:59You're one of the few people who still sees it as a big part.
16:01Well, where, what rock have you been living on?
16:04You, you, you talk to the labels and they are very excited about how much money they seem to be getting from YouTube now.
16:10No, that, listen, when, when GMR had its last, uh, negotiation with YouTube,
16:16the labels were all calling me saying, let them take everything down.
16:21Right?
16:22We're standing behind you.
16:23You know, um, believe me, the YouTube problem is nobody stands up to them.
16:27Um, the bullying continues.
16:29I mean, I had a conversation with someone in the know recently after I shot off my mouth at another one of these gatherings recently.
16:36Um, and, and he called me up and someone in the know said, I'm going to give you a statistic,
16:40which I wasn't even going to bring up here today, but you started it.
16:44Um, basically the, the, in fact, um, Colbert has more people watching him than David Letterman at his peak and the economics to CBS are 10% of what the Letterman economics used to be.
16:58And why is that?
17:00That's because YouTube doesn't pay on music royalties.
17:05They pay on their, on their same service as a Spotify or an Apple or an Amazon.
17:10Their royalty is one fifth of the, of the highest paying of the other ones.
17:16Uh, and they just get away with it because they're YouTube.
17:19I mean, it's the classic definition of a monopoly.
17:21And, you know, maybe, maybe something happens, maybe it doesn't, but, you know, everybody, not just the music business, but, you know, I've watched my friends in the movie business and the TV business have, you know, let them get away with it too.
17:33You know, I hear about, you know, oh, I took that show down and where our ratings went up 5%, but the art, but the artist was mad.
17:41So we had to put it back up.
17:42You know, they, they somehow, they've been very clever.
17:44They've built a big monopoly, but, you know, for the $50 billion I think they made last year,
17:51they could just pay a little more, you know, and, and, and it's, uh, it, it's, it, you know, they, they will bully a network, an artist, a performing rights society, a publisher, a label, it's across the board.
18:04Um, isn't the issue with that, as with the, the fight that Universal had with TikTok, as with any fight that someone has with Spotify, that ultimately, if an artist has a new act, new album that they want to promote, they want it to be available on the service?
18:18Yeah, I mean, look, um, acts, uh, you know, I think across all the areas, you know, the, you know, entertainers in general are very insular.
18:28They're creative people.
18:30They don't stand up for themselves.
18:32They don't band together and use any sort of collective.
18:35They use you.
18:36Huh?
18:36They use you.
18:37Yeah, but, you know, what are there, thousands of managers?
18:40You know, we're, we're, uh, you know, we're like spitting in the ocean to YouTube.
18:44Um, two quick questions and then we've got to go.
18:47Okay.
18:47Um, you were someone who thought that a new administration in D.C. would be better for deals.
18:53You're not necessarily, I'm not going to talk about your politics here, but you, you were definitely fed up with Lena Kahn and that part of the administration.
19:00Has the business environment under Trump been better or worse than you thought it was going to be?
19:05Um, I think in, in certainly in music, same.
19:10Same?
19:11Same as you thought, not same as it was.
19:13No, it's kind of same as it was under Biden.
19:15Got it.
19:15So not what you want it to be.
19:17Oh, I, I'm, I, we haven't had a deal there, so I don't know yet.
19:21Um, and then I'm going to crib one from, uh, the conversation with, with Matt.
19:25We're going to play one, buy, sell, hold.
19:27The three biggest companies in music, you can, Live Nation, Spotify, UMG.
19:33What about them?
19:34You're going to buy one, sell one, and hold.
19:35Oh, buy one, Live Nation, Spotify, UMG.
19:38Okay, um, buy Spotify, sell the, sell UMG, hold on Live Nation.
19:44Okay.
19:44Because of the uncertainty of everything.
19:46Okay.
19:46Okay.
19:46Okay.
19:47Okay.
19:47Okay.
19:47Okay.
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