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00:00John, a friend of the show is back. His team didn't end well, but the Milwaukee Brewers had a great season and their manager, Pat Murphy, will join us.
00:08It'll be great to have Murph once again. He's been on several times. He's agreed to come on after a tough defeat in the LCS.
00:17And he is a great guest. I mean, anyone who saw those press conferences, I mean, they were must watch press conferences, which you can't say many press conferences about.
00:27He is a fantastic talker, speaks his mind, and we're really looking forward to this one.
00:32Yeah, and he'll talk to us about the successes and the ultimate failure at the end of his team, what it looks like moving forward with guys like Freddy Peralta, Willie, or Won't He Be a Brewer?
00:43We'll talk to him about those buzz-soaring Dodgers as they head towards the World Series against the Blue Jays.
00:49John and I will talk about the culmination of the AL pennant with George Springer's great home run.
00:54We'll preview the World Series a little bit. We'll play game there at the end if you stick with us on the show with Joel Sheldon and John.
01:06John, I'm back in New York as I speak to you, but I flew in this morning from Toronto.
01:12I was there when we were doing this on Tuesday, Monday night, Game 7. Game 7s are always great.
01:19This one was particularly great. And turned late on one of the most dramatic home runs you'll see in postseason.
01:27George Springer, who's got 23 homers now in the postseason, tied with Kyle Schwaber for the third most ever, hit a three-run homer.
01:34Strange decision that Edward Bozardo was the guy who delivered the pitch to George Springer.
01:40Let's talk about it. It means the Blue Jays won the last two games in Toronto.
01:46It means they're going to the World Series for the first time since winning back-to-back in 1992-93.
01:52And it means the Seattle Mariners remain over their history as far as getting there.
01:56Though literally getting to Game 7 means they went further than they've ever gone before in the ALCS.
02:02So, John, I was there. I wrote about it. You tell me what you were thinking watching it.
02:06Well, first of all, Seattle, it's hard to believe they've never made the World Series, a team that's had Ichiro, an Edgar, a Griffey, a A-Rod, a big unit.
02:15It's really shocking that they haven't. I thought that they were the favorite for this team.
02:21You know, I didn't look at BetMGM or whatever. I thought they were, you know, a little more talented, at least on paper.
02:27To give Toronto credit, they're a team. They're a true team.
02:30I don't think their rotation is fully together. Their bullpen isn't overwhelming in terms of talent.
02:37They've got one superstar. They've got a lot of good players.
02:41They put the ball in play. I love the way they play.
02:45John Schneider's done a terrific job.
02:48You know, I'm giving Toronto credit, and they're a true team.
02:51Let's see if a true team can beat the best team.
02:54I mean, because we know, I mean, even though the Dodgers don't get to home field because they had a worse record than Toronto,
03:00the Dodgers have an overwhelming amount of talent, and they are the clear favorite.
03:04I'm not even going to consult any of the betting sites.
03:07They are the favorite.
03:08So it would be quite a coup if Toronto was able to win this World Series.
03:13John, you know this well, right?
03:15I'm at the game last night.
03:16It means I have an 11 o'clock deadline, what we call a running deadline.
03:19I've got to produce a column as the game's going on, and I'm deep into that column about the Mariners going to the World Series for the first time.
03:26I'm like, you know, Cal Raleigh and Julio Rodriguez hit homers in the way that Ken Griffey and Alex Rodriguez and Jay Buhner couldn't, right?
03:35Like, they got the team to the World Series, all the great players.
03:38They have a bunch of players who were good enough to get to Cooperstown, but not to the Fall Classic.
03:43And, you know, when you do that, you're getting very locked in on your words.
03:47You're trying very hard to follow the game, the emotion of the moment.
03:51And out of the corner of my eye, you know, I'm watching it become first and second, second, third, and one out.
03:56And I cannot believe that Edward Bozardo is coming into this game.
03:59I mean, we go through this every year, John.
04:02Dan Wilson knows this suffering well, right?
04:04He's played the six most games in the history of the organization.
04:07He was a catcher during one of their heydays in the early 2000, late, early 2000 period.
04:14But, John, we watch this.
04:16He says after the game that this was the moment that Edward, this was his job all year.
04:22What does June 7th have to do with yesterday?
04:26And what does his job all year?
04:27You already had using Brian Wu as a reliever.
04:30Was that his job all year?
04:32Like, you already have noted this is a different special game.
04:36It's lose or go home.
04:36Only the best people touch the ball in the biggest spot.
04:40The lineup has turned over to the top of the lineup.
04:42The Blue Jays, yes, to your point, they put it in play.
04:47They get a lot of contributions.
04:48But they're particularly lethal at the Springer first, Guerrero third portion of this.
04:56Right.
04:57Munoz had not given up a hit in the postseason.
05:01He hadn't given up a hit.
05:02He's an all-star closer.
05:03I just don't know how he's not in the game.
05:07You know what it reminded me of, John?
05:08Because I hearkened it to Joe Carter's homer.
05:11And unfortunately, I'm old enough.
05:13Were you there else?
05:13I was in the park when Joe Carter hit the home run.
05:16And then afterwards, Jim Fregosi, rest his soul, the manager of the Phillies, is talking
05:20about he stuck with Mitch Williams beyond all recognition of him being a decent major league
05:25pitcher because that had been his job all year.
05:27And I'm like, well, what's the matter what his job was all year?
05:30You knew he couldn't survive this.
05:33Like like like at some point people define themselves.
05:36And how do you sleep at night if you never get your best guys in?
05:40Yeah, I did.
05:41I don't know.
05:42Can't answer how he's going to sleep at night.
05:43But yeah, he blew it.
05:44I mean, I think everybody watching understood that that moment was for made for Munoz, who's
05:50not only their best reliever.
05:52He's one of the best relievers in baseball.
05:54We have two second and third, one out, the top of the order coming up.
06:00Springer, one of the greatest postseason hitters of all time.
06:03Need to get through that inning.
06:04That is the key inning.
06:06He made a mistake.
06:08No question about it.
06:09That said, as you pointed out, he got them further than they've ever gotten before.
06:13He had them playing all year.
06:16You know, they certainly hit a lot better.
06:19The new regime, much, much better with Seitzer, with Edgar.
06:22You know, they're 740 OPS, much improvement.
06:26It was under 700 previously.
06:28They certainly were a better team.
06:30So overall, he did a good job.
06:33I know I hear people calling from getting fired.
06:36That can't possibly be happening.
06:38He obviously made a mistake.
06:41You know, the odds still were that they were in their favor.
06:45But, I mean, to bring in a guy who pitched the day before, you know, in a game meaningless situation where they had it, the game was over for a couple innings.
06:54This third time, I believe, that Springer had seen Bizzardo.
06:58You know, you don't want the starter to see somebody three times, but you'll have this retread reliever.
07:02I mean, give Bizzardo credit.
07:04He's turned his career around.
07:05But this guy's been DFA'd twice.
07:07He's not a 101-mile-per-hour throwing closer.
07:11It was clearly a mistake and a big one.
07:14So, you know, if he doesn't get it like most of us do, maybe he will be able to sleep better.
07:19So good for him for that.
07:20But, I mean, he's obviously did a good job this year getting the team where they got.
07:24So that will help him sleep.
07:27Yeah, I mean, they hadn't finished first since 2001.
07:29They finished first.
07:30It's only the fourth time in their history they finished first.
07:33I mean, in the small picture, it's a triumphant year.
07:38But, like, when you go back that they have been around since 1977 and they're the only of the 30 teams that has never been of the 30 current teams that have not been to the World Series.
07:51And they had to win one of two games in Toronto where they won the first two games on the road to kind of take, you know, gain an advantage in the series.
08:01And they're winning with eight outs to go.
08:04And you don't have your best guy on the mound.
08:06I just, you know, these opportunities, as the Mariners should know more than anyone, do not pass by that often.
08:12And, John, just, you know, about their attack, it was funny watching them play.
08:17Don't hold me to it.
08:18It was like 23 of their 29 runs were scored via homer.
08:21They're a lot like the Yankees, actually.
08:23Totally, right.
08:25Two teams that relied on the homerun to this degree, more than 50% of the runs through the year in 23 out of 29 is obviously closer to 75%.
08:34But more than 50% of the runs came via the homerun.
08:37And just to go on your point a little bit more, I mean, look, they may get there next year.
08:44They still have this pitching rotation intact.
08:46But, I mean, this pitching rotation should have been good enough for a World Series.
08:51They should have, they did obviously get Suarez and Naylor and improve the team quite a bit this year.
08:57But, I mean, are they going to waste this whole era with this great starting pitching?
09:02It's really unfortunate if they do.
09:04Yeah.
09:04John, why don't we, like, spin it forward.
09:07We'll both be at Media Day at Rogers Center on Thursday and at Games 1 and 2 over the weekend in Toronto
09:14before we fly from Canada and across the country to Los Angeles for 3, 4, and 5.
09:21John, obviously, the Blue Jays are going to be staggering underdogs in this series.
09:29And we've covered plenty of series where staggering underdogs have won.
09:34The 1990 Reds were staggering underdogs to the A's and swept the A's.
09:39The one I hearkened to last night, just because it began with a limping slugger, Kirk Gibson,
09:44the Dodgers, coincidentally, were the huge underdogs in 1988 against the Bash Brother,
09:51against Sandy Alderson and Tony LaRusse's Bash Brother A's.
09:54Gibson hits the homer in Game 1 with, you know, a hamstring and a knee injury and kind of gimps around.
10:01It reminded me of Springer who took a 96-mile-an-hour fastball off his right knee from Brian Wu
10:06and, you know, like really looked like he was struggling on, especially Game 6,
10:13where he was down on his knees a lot and he didn't run really well.
10:17But, man, that is a clutch player.
10:20They put the ball in play.
10:21And, John, I know there's upsets.
10:24I don't know how this team, because of starting pitching,
10:27gets through the Dodger lineup, and limits enough runs where the Blue Jays could do enough damage
10:34against what is a, you know, the best rotation in the sport, pitching its best.
10:39Please convince me, hey, a small sample size otherwise, because I'd love it to be a series
10:44since I'm doing all this traveling for it.
10:46But, I mean, it looks rough for me.
10:49It feels like the Blue Jays won their championship last night.
10:52Yeah, I'll go back to what you started with.
10:54If anyone can win, it's a small series, short series, you know, of 162 games.
10:59They did win more games than the Dodgers.
11:01Of course, the Dodgers were playing load management.
11:04You know, Snell barely performed in the regular season.
11:07Now he's the best pitcher in the game.
11:10So, I mean, obviously the Dodgers are going to be overwhelming favorites.
11:14But what's an overwhelming favorite in a best-of-seven series?
11:18You know, not just the Reds, you know, the Pirates in 1960.
11:21But you really don't have to go back that far.
11:23The underdog has won a lot.
11:26And it's because anybody can win in baseball.
11:29I mean, obviously the Blue Jays are a really good team.
11:32They have stars, which it seems to take stars.
11:35I think that's why these small market teams don't do it.
11:38And we'll talk to Pat Murphy later.
11:40But why do these small market teams not do it?
11:42They don't have an Otani.
11:43They don't have a Vlad Guerrero.
11:44They don't have a Raleigh.
11:45They don't have, you know, big, big players like this.
11:49And it seems like those players do rise to the occasion.
11:52I know we have the Lemkes and the other, you know, Doyle, the World Series heroes that are surprises.
11:57But ultimately, it's a big help to have Otani, Betts, and Freeman.
12:02And that's why the Dodgers are going to be the big favorite.
12:04But Toronto's a good, well-rounded team.
12:08It only takes four wins.
12:10Anything can happen in a baseball game, as we saw last night, as we do this.
12:14So, certainly, they can win.
12:16Am I picking Toronto?
12:17I mean, it's tough to do that.
12:19I should probably consult with Mike Puma, who, at the beginning of the year, had Toronto against the Dodgers.
12:23I think we all probably had the Dodgers, unless you're a real gambler.
12:27But to pick Toronto at the beginning of the year, you know, I didn't see it.
12:31I think I kind of made fun of him early on with that pick.
12:34Right.
12:35Mike Puma, of course, our Mets beat writer.
12:39John, you know, the one thing, as just a wrap-up for this, I wonder if you have a thought on it, is we also covered the Yankee dynasty, which was the last time a team won back-to-back titles.
12:50The Yankees won three in a row from 1998 to 2000.
12:54And there was this, there were two things about that.
12:56Well, there was a lot about that team.
12:58But temperamentally, there was kind of a calm that came over that team at this time of year.
13:02They just kind of felt like when they got to 27 outs, they would have more runs than the other team.
13:07And so they never kind of got flustered.
13:10They were behind 3-2 or something.
13:12They knew Rivera was sitting at the end if they had a lead.
13:15And they just had a lot of reps doing it, and they got great at it.
13:20And there felt like an inevitability to their winning after a while.
13:25I'm starting to feel it about the Dodgers a little bit.
13:28You were with them for these rounds.
13:31You feeling it?
13:33Yeah.
13:34I mean, this is the dynasty.
13:35They're in a dynasty.
13:36They've been in the playoffs 13 years in a row.
13:38They won the division 12 years in a row.
13:40If they win the championship, this will be three times in six years World Series champion.
13:44It is a legit dynasty.
13:47You know, they have an amazing amount of talent.
13:50They know it.
13:51I mean, even the guys who aren't good in the regular season are pretty good but not great.
13:55Like Edmund, and particularly Quique Hernandez, become great in the postseason.
14:00But do they even need them to be great?
14:01I think they've got Betts.
14:04Ohtani's the best player probably since Babe Ruth or ever.
14:08Betts is an all-time great.
14:09And Freeman, to me, first ballot Hall of Famer, and that's not even doing it justice.
14:14On one ankle last year, he eliminated the Yankees in the World Series.
14:19So, I mean, they've got three absolute superstars.
14:23They've got at least four Hall of Famers.
14:25I'm not even counting Dave Roberts, who I think is an underrated manager.
14:29They have an overwhelming team.
14:31You know, they coasted through the regular season.
14:33They didn't mind playing that first round against the Reds.
14:36It was a—that was one where I would have had a hard time seeing, even in a two out of three,
14:42that Cincinnati could have won that.
14:43But, yeah, I mean, they really certainly are a confident team.
14:47And, by the way, Betts is an outstanding shortstop.
14:50I mean, I thought when we first saw him, I thought he was well below average at the start,
14:54which why wouldn't he be?
14:56He's an outfielder.
14:57He's outstanding.
14:58I think he's one of the best shortstops in baseball right now.
15:02That, to me, is amazing.
15:04Yeah.
15:05It's almost like they're toying with everyone.
15:06They're right fielders playing shortstop.
15:08The starter, everyone was going after his closing.
15:12Otani pitches and hits.
15:14It's like it's a fantasy camp for the Dodgers.
15:17You know, John, when Freeman was a free agent, you know,
15:20and I was writing and advocating that the Yankees should go hard after him,
15:24the comp I made as an offensive player was George Brett, who I thought he was like,
15:31he hit like, and I thought he would age like.
15:33Brett hit until he was 40.
15:35I actually think, and also hit big in the postseason.
15:39And I think we're seeing all that from Freddie.
15:41I just want to say on that, yeah.
15:43I mean, the Yankees did go hard after him.
15:45It never really came out because he had told his agent once the Matt Olsen trade happened
15:50and he went to Atlanta and he was out of a job in Atlanta, he told his agent to get me home.
15:56Basically, that was it.
15:57That was a three-word message.
15:59And Excel, Casey Close, had to get him to the Dodgers.
16:03And that was it.
16:03He didn't, he didn't really, he didn't, he wanted to go home at that point.
16:07He didn't go to the Yankees.
16:09The Yankees would have been happy to pay him more than that.
16:12And he didn't want to do it.
16:13You know, when I talked to him about this during the LCS, you know, his answer is,
16:18oh, they never made an offer.
16:19They never made an offer.
16:20Yeah, well, you didn't let them make an offer.
16:22The Yankees would have been happy to sign him.
16:24I don't know if they were listening to you, but they were on that page
16:27and would have signed him happily had they had that opportunity.
16:30Let's table it.
16:32I think the chronology by then is they already had re-signed judges pal Anthony Rizzo, right?
16:37That could be.
16:38You're better at that than I am.
16:40Yeah, I think that they, you know, after the lockout, whatever happened then, you know.
16:46Anyway, we'll tackle that.
16:48We have bigger things like the World Series in front of us, and we have a real big thing.
16:52Pat Murphy's team, the Brewers, had the best record in the major leagues this year.
16:58He did a great job.
17:00He ran into the stone wall that was the Dodgers.
17:02I'm sure we'll ask him a lot about that and the excellence of his team this season
17:06if you stick with us on the show with Joel Sherman and John.
17:14John and I are so pleased to be joined by a friend of the show.
17:17He's been on with us before.
17:19He was the NL Manager of the Year in 2024.
17:21I dare say, sorry, Jinx, Pat Murphy.
17:25I think you're going to be the NL Manager of the Year in 2025.
17:29He was the skipper of the team with the best record in the major leagues.
17:32They won the NL Central again under his stewardship.
17:35Pat Murphy, thank you so much for joining us on the show with Joel Sherman and John Heyman.
17:40I wouldn't miss it.
17:41You guys are real powerhouses.
17:42You can't turn down powerhouses, you know.
17:45And you're a real flatterer.
17:47Thanks.
17:47Murph, I'm wondering how you digest big picture the season.
17:53This team accomplished so much.
17:56As I mentioned, it had the best record.
17:58It held off the rest of the division again.
18:01It played really well for you.
18:03It seemed from a distance for the length.
18:05And then you ran into, you won a round of the playoffs.
18:08And then you ran into the defending champions in a buzzsaw.
18:11And it was a 4-0 sweep.
18:13How does it compute for you?
18:15What kind of year was this?
18:17Yeah, I mean, I'm very pleased with so much.
18:21I'm thankful and grateful to be part of it.
18:23Have a group of young guys that really cared and really gave a damn.
18:27And, you know, when you have that, when you have that buy-in, when they really give a damn about the win,
18:32it's very gratifying to see them all pull together.
18:36We're not going to say we're the best because we had the best record.
18:39We're not going to say, you know, we're a failure in any way because we ran into a buzzsaw for four games with the Dodgers.
18:46And I think anybody could see that, that the Dodgers were special for those four games for sure.
18:52And probably some before that.
18:54And we'll see about the future.
18:56But, yeah, I mean, this team beat the Dodgers six times.
19:02This team held off a division that, if anybody's tracking it, and I don't know that people track the Central as well as they do the other coasts.
19:09But, I mean, this league is good.
19:13You know, you see the rotation that the Pirates have, let alone what the Reds have, what they've done.
19:19And the Cardinals are so capable.
19:22And you're facing Sonny Gray.
19:23And we faced him four times this year.
19:25When you're facing, you know, the type of lineup that they threw out from time to time.
19:30It's like, it's a tough league.
19:32And the Cubs say no more.
19:33They have a, you know, a worthy team that is capable of winning it all.
19:40So I'm proud of that.
19:42Digesting it, it takes me a while.
19:44You know, I hurry up, have to compartmentalize, get the transition back to Arizona, take care of staff, take care of player issues, those type of things.
19:55Put everything that in order.
19:57And then hurry up back to Arizona.
19:59And then it'll be a while.
20:00And then it'll start making sense.
20:02But, you know, with the budget and the injuries and everything we had stacked against us for these guys to go out and do what they did, I'm just, it was, it was, it was awesome watching it.
20:16Murph, fantastic job.
20:18You are the manager of the year, I'm sure.
20:20Just terrific.
20:21I want to ask you this.
20:22Is it a tough ask or almost impossible for a small market team to do this?
20:28Obviously, as good a job as your front office does, they don't have $700 million lying around for Shohei Ohtani, nor could they sign as agents.
20:37It's Mookie Betts or Freddie Freeman.
20:41You know, obviously the Royals were able to break through a decade ago, but generally the big market teams prevail in these short series with the Stars doing it.
20:51Is it near to impossible for these small market teams to overcome?
20:55You guys would have better perspective than me.
20:57I think it's changing in that the rich are getting richer and it's getting more difficult to break through.
21:06I think we broke through as good as anyone has of the small market teams.
21:12Now you're talking, you know, 10 years ago when Kansas City did it.
21:16I mean, that's pretty special.
21:19Homegrown for the most part.
21:21And I think we have to do it that way, too.
21:23I think it has to be homegrown and pick up some of the right pieces.
21:29And I mean, it's still very difficult when you're going against.
21:33Look at the pitching we faced in those four games.
21:37You know, it was it was nothing short of incredible.
21:42You know, and our offense has been pretty consistent.
21:44I'm not saying we're the best, but we we put it in play and we score runs and we just didn't in those four games.
21:50You know, I don't want to jump up your team.
21:55I'm sure we'll still talk more about it.
21:56But you mentioned what feels like the strongest item that any team had in the postseason, which is the Dodger rotation, which is saying something since their lineup opens with three Hall of Fame bound players who are still at the top of their game.
22:11And the Blue Jays are going to be significant underdogs in this World Series.
22:17Can anybody beat this rotation?
22:20Yeah, they can.
22:20I mean, it's not easy to go out and throw as well as Yamamoto did or Otani did.
22:26Now, you know, Glass now is is one of the best, but he's gettable, you know, and at this point right now, I mean, it's it's again, he's he's that special that he can go six shut, too.
22:45But he's got when Yamamoto's on and that split looks like the heater and the heater's going up and the splits going down and they one's 92 and one's 98.
22:54It's it's pretty hard to discern.
22:56And oh, by the way, then I'll drop in a break a ball any time for a strike.
23:00And Otani the same way.
23:01He'll throw a sweeper, throw a heater, then throw a cutter like Shohei.
23:06Come on, limit your pitches.
23:09It's just been unbelievable what he's done.
23:11So you think of that.
23:13And then now, what can you say?
23:14He was he was on it.
23:16I mean, throwing seven and eight change ups in a row.
23:19Like, who does that?
23:22Yeah, I mean, he was he was special and he knew what he was facing.
23:27He's faced us before and he neutralized it.
23:29And man, he was special.
23:31And then dropping breaking balls and sliders to left handers for strikes and then for outs and then his change up impeccable with with depth.
23:39And sometimes he cut it and then, oh, by the way, here's 97 at your neck.
23:43You know, he's those three.
23:47But they can be off.
23:49We've seen Snell walk people.
23:50We've seen Glass now walk people.
23:52We've seen Yamamoto.
23:54We got him for seven runs in the first inning here.
23:56So so if they don't repeat that, any team can beat anybody, you know.
24:03Yeah.
24:03You know, the Dodgers have over one talent, really all time great roster.
24:08I think that's the number one factor.
24:10That's probably 98 percent of it.
24:12I'm wondering, you know, my in-laws are from Milwaukee.
24:15They were very excited when you beat the Cubs.
24:17You know, you got past the first round, which was a big hurdle for the Brewers for a long time.
24:23And you beat the Cubs, who they they don't like.
24:26It's really the second round, John, because we didn't have to play in the wildcard.
24:28So, you know, so now you're now you're now you're playing for the World Series.
24:32Beating the Cubs was so emotional.
24:34John, it drained us.
24:36It drained me.
24:37And then we have to practice the next day and play the next day.
24:39It's like, oh, that felt I can imagine how the players felt.
24:44And we still lost two to one with the bases loaded in the ninth, you know, and had opportunities to win there.
24:52So I still I commend this team.
24:55I admire this team we had in Milwaukee.
24:59Unfortunately, we ran into the buzzsaw, the Dodgers at the wrong time.
25:02You know, the buzzsaw, again, is is about their starting pitching.
25:07I wonder about managing this time of year.
25:09I get it.
25:10Not everybody has Glasnow and Snell and Yamamoto and Otani at their disposal.
25:14And you've got to do what you've got to do.
25:18But is there something to be said for starting pitchers at this time of year and trusting like like it's it's all about decision making and trusting your best.
25:28Right.
25:29And it is.
25:31But but the starting pitching at this time of year, you just don't have any room for error.
25:36So you let him go.
25:38I mean, if if Yamamoto gave up two runs in the first in the first game, he's out.
25:42You know what I mean?
25:43Like you have to know the Dodgers didn't have the confidence in their pen.
25:48But I know for us, anybody that was going to give up runs is out, you know, because in a seven game series, you need a lot more pitching and you can be a little more lenient.
25:57It's a little more realistic with starting pitching.
25:59But in a five game series, heck no.
26:02But if I just can't cast this is look.
26:06Sure.
26:07The problem is you could do this anyway.
26:09Right.
26:09Like, are you letting your your starter see guys a lot, but relievers are relievers generally right because they're like one to trick ponies.
26:17And, you know, at MLB Network, we get the data all the time about like when the relievers see the the guy in a playoff series for a third time or fourth time, how bad the numbers skew.
26:28I think we saw it again last night with Bizarro and Springer.
26:31You had it a little bit with Aaron Ashby in the top of their lineup.
26:34Are we asking guys who are relievers because they're relievers to do too much at this time of year?
26:42And it's like, hey, I got Jason Mizorowski.
26:44I might as well let him throw 100.
26:45See what the hell happens.
26:46Yeah.
26:47Well, that's a fair point that you bring up.
26:49But it's it's case by case.
26:52If you if you map it out, Ashby, you don't want him to face the same guy.
26:56So he didn't face Bush three times.
26:58And we that was what our concern would be facing Tucker three times.
27:03We weren't as concerned with that one because Tucker's wasn't on it versus left handers the way he was earlier in the season.
27:10But it was a case by case basis.
27:13It was mapped out.
27:14Believe me, hours and hours put into that kind of planning, especially when you don't have true starters.
27:20We didn't have, you know, true starters.
27:22We had put Miz in the pen and then we had some injuries.
27:24Woody goes down.
27:26You know, that hurts us.
27:27A small market team that has bad luck, too, like we had in the beginning of the season with injuries.
27:32And at the end, it speaks to really building depth.
27:38And maybe those pitchers don't.
27:40Freddie Peralta had 36 starts this year.
27:42Like like that's a lot.
27:44And he did 30 some last year.
27:46I mean, it's a lot.
27:48And you see, like, you know, some of his arsenal has changed a little bit, especially after a start 35.
27:55Or 30, you know, like it's just it's it's one of those things where small market teams have to operate way differently.
28:02And it's also dependent on your personnel and the injuries at the end.
28:06The Dodgers, it just lined up.
28:07Snell didn't pitch the whole season.
28:09You know, Otani didn't pitch a whole season.
28:13Glassdown didn't pitch a whole season.
28:14And Yamamoto did.
28:15But he's a little bit of a freak, by the way.
28:18And that's why I don't know what he costs.
28:22But I'm sure, you know, I'm sure his legacy, family legacy in the finance business isn't going to struggle, you know.
28:35Yeah, but I think small market teams, you just have to piece it together.
28:38Seven game series takes on a different identity.
28:40Man, you know, but for us, if you if you were to say the Dodgers are going to score 14 runs in four games, what is what's the score after four games?
28:53You know, what's the series?
28:54You wouldn't say for nothing.
28:56So I think our pitching decisions turned out to be pretty good and really limited.
29:03They left a lot of guys on base, which is, you know, a sign of getting guys out at the right time, I think.
29:13But, I mean, it's a it's an issue, man.
29:15You how is a team like ours going to build that starting pitching?
29:21It's got to be from within because you're not going to go.
29:24What's the cost of a starting pitcher?
29:25Sonny Gray is going to make thirty five million last year.
29:27We faced him four times.
29:29And he's on a team that was five hundred team.
29:31And, you know, now, you know, you've thrived two straight years with the loss of Burns and then Adamas.
29:40But I'm glad you touched on the starting pitching here.
29:43It feels like it's still kind of in flux.
29:45Woody now Woodruff is now a free agent.
29:49You know, Montgomery, you acquired.
29:51It sounds like, you know, that could be a good reclamation project.
29:54But, you know, I mean, maybe this is crazy, but the Brewers were the team that traded for Zach Greinke when he had his walk year, giving up Kane and Escobar.
30:08You know, Scooble is out there with a year to go.
30:11You've got great prospects.
30:12I mean, is that crazy to think that the Brewers could be a team to trade for Scooble?
30:16What do you how are you going to piece together?
30:17I mean, that's probably a long shot.
30:19How are you going to piece together the rotation next year?
30:22Oh, I think that's what we're working on right now.
30:24You mentioned you mentioned Peralta.
30:26I mean, is he going to be back?
30:27He's got a year to go as well.
30:28Right. Right.
30:29So, again, you mentioned some really good points.
30:31I mean, that's why I came on the show.
30:33I felt pressured.
30:34If you don't come on the biggest show in town and with the smartest guys, you know, you know, you'll never get asked.
30:40So, no, I mean, those questions are the questions being talked about right now.
30:46It's you've got to make a forecast on someone's health, how he's going to thrive.
30:53You know, if there was a Scooble thing.
30:57Believe me, there's a lot of teams in baseball that would give up a lot right now for that.
31:01But when you think of our organization, giving up prospects for one year of control of somebody is probably not what we do best.
31:12And it probably doesn't make sense, does it?
31:16Well, I think, you know, your team did trade for Granke, right?
31:21Wasn't it the Brewers?
31:22Yeah.
31:23That was a couple of administrations ago, though.
31:26And I think and I think that we would we'd acquire Granke now because he's probably still good enough to pitch.
31:34Yeah.
31:36Murph, just because you mentioned it's with him with a year to go acquiring him.
31:41It's more traditional for your team with a year to go to trade a guy.
31:44John brought up Peralta.
31:46I mean, do you brace yourself at this point that this is just the reality of your market, that you have to churn a guy in this situation?
31:55And even though he's your ace in the way that Corbin Burns was your ace with a year to go, if you don't do it, if you're not proactive, you can't stay at the top of the division.
32:04Or do you play it out because he's Freddy Peralta?
32:06He's been pretty damn good for you.
32:08Yeah, he's been an icon here.
32:10I mean, he's loved in the clubhouse.
32:11He's loved in the front office.
32:13He's loved by our fans and our community.
32:15He does a lot in the community.
32:17This guy's real.
32:18It's legit.
32:19But that is our motive operandum is that I'm sure that there'll be conversations about that and teams will make offers.
32:28And I think we feel like for that price, we've got to get ourselves something really special.
32:37Or I think we're 100% happy keeping him going forward because, you know, that's, like you said, our starting pitching is kind of a question mark.
32:45Losing Woody, if we don't re-sign Woody or make him a big deal, then, you know, that's, you know, and when you look at where we operate budget-wise, you don't have a lot of where we're going to go get a starter, you know, so.
32:58You know, I want to ask you, you were a longtime college coach, ASU and Notre Dame, two big programs, obviously.
33:05So it's only been, I guess, a decade in Major League Baseball most of the time as a coach up until a couple of years ago.
33:12What do you think about that route?
33:14There is a kind of strong indication now that Tony Vitello from Tennessee is the choice for the Giants.
33:21Is that easy?
33:22Can someone go from college coach to Major League manager?
33:25You had a kind of an eight-year transition period.
33:27Yeah, no.
33:28Well, I'm not as smart as some of these guys, so it took me a little longer.
33:32I wouldn't have been ready whatever year my last year was, 2010 or whatever.
33:38I would not have been ready to go to the big leagues.
33:42I wasn't ready in 2015 when I got the interim job.
33:47But again, let me say this.
33:50Buster Posey, I've never met him.
33:53I've competed against him for years.
33:55I have unbelievable respect for this guy, the way he kept adjusting in the game and how he led his pitching staff, which was way underrated.
34:05But I just think he knows all this.
34:10He knows it's a tremendous transition from college to Major Leagues for a guy that's never been in a Major League dugout.
34:16He knows all this.
34:17So with the club he's got coming back and with the coaches and people he has around him in the front office, they're not stupid.
34:28They know what they're getting into, and they see things in this guy that help lead a club.
34:35And what I'm talking about is an unabashed way of saying, this is how we're going to do it, or a personality that can handle the media, a personality that can handle different types of players.
34:48I think they know what they're doing.
34:50I think everybody in the world knows, wow, how can this work?
34:53You can't go from harness racing to thoroughbred racing.
34:55Oh, yes, you can if you know what you're getting into, and that horse can run.
35:00So, again, I think it's a great thing for the game, and I think that it's something that the Giants are not stupid.
35:10They're not throwing a dart at the board.
35:12They've done their research, and they believe this guy can do it.
35:15So I'm going to say he can do it.
35:17You know, Murph, on the subject of managers, if you include Don Kelly being retained from interim to full-time in Pittsburgh, a team you invoked earlier about their starting pitching, one-third of the league is going to be changing managers this offseason.
35:33Ten out of 30.
35:35It seems to me—
35:37We're expendable.
35:38We're expendable.
35:39Well, that's where I'm going.
35:40Like, it's interesting that we hear all the time that the managers don't have the keys to the kingdom that they used to have, but the guys who have the keys to the kingdom are essentially Supreme Court justices.
35:50They never lose their jobs.
35:53I wonder what you think about the state of managing right now.
35:57Like, does something need to change where, you know, if a guy like Pat Murphy, you talked about your long apprenticeship and your self-effacing.
36:03You're obviously terrific at this—proves that he can do this job, then, you know, is it Bill Parcells said that if I, you know, like, if you're asking me to, like, cook the meal, you've got to let me shop for the groceries every once in a while also?
36:19Right.
36:20Should the role of the manager, which is already pretty vast in all the things you've got to do, but should there be more of a power base here?
36:27Or take me wherever you want to go on.
36:30We're managing this in 2025.
36:31Yeah, yeah.
36:32I think that—well, I think what Counts did, you know, he got himself paid.
36:36And he was a first-round pick, so to speak, you know.
36:39And Counts got paid as a first-rounder.
36:42And then Dave Roberts got paid as a first-rounder.
36:44And I think what's happening is the managers are striking back saying,
36:48OK, if you're not going to pay me and you're not going to let me shop for the groceries very much, then I'm going to get paid.
36:57And I'm going to go someplace else.
36:58And they're going to use their bargaining when they can to put themselves in position knowing it's so volatile.
37:06You know, if the Dodgers didn't make the playoffs, let's say, they're not firing Dave Roberts.
37:15I mean, that's a big nut.
37:16You know, that's a lot of money.
37:18It's $50 million probably or something like that.
37:20So I don't think that—I think the only way to combat it is you've got to pay the manager.
37:26And if you don't, then, you know, you're going to get guys in there that don't affect the clubhouse.
37:32Because it hasn't been a thing yet where the general manager is the one that affects the clubhouse, the culture, and the day-to-day.
37:40So I think the manager does have a big role.
37:44I hope so.
37:46Shit, for my sake.
37:47Jesus.
37:48I think I have a decent-sized role.
37:52Maybe not.
37:53Maybe I'm just getting old and they're just pushing me around and they're just waiting to push me out of pasture.
37:58I don't know.
37:59Not at all.
37:59You did an amazing job with the roster this year.
38:02Amazing.
38:02Let me ask you, and Joel and I are both friends with A.J. Preller.
38:06He's a friend of the show.
38:07We've been on many times.
38:09What happened on that 2015 staff?
38:12You have you and Dave Roberts on the staff.
38:14Since then, they've had like 37 managers.
38:17They're now hiring their 38th manager.
38:20What the heck happened?
38:21Why aren't you or Dave Roberts the manager of the San Diego Padres?
38:26Yeah, well, I wasn't ready, John.
38:28I love A.J.
38:29And, you know, people can say what they want.
38:31I love the guy.
38:32And all you got to do is look at the stands when you go play San Diego and you know what kind of job he's done.
38:39Love him or criticize him or whatever you want to do.
38:42I'm telling you, the guy knows how to win.
38:45And when I was there, there was a president there that was overseeing baseball still, not the owner.
38:53So it was complicated.
38:55And I got in for 90 games.
38:57And I tell you, I wasn't ready in that I didn't know the team.
39:00They didn't know me.
39:01I was an outsider.
39:03Doc wasn't sure about managing and he didn't know for sure.
39:08He had just started out in this business.
39:10He had just getting his feet wet.
39:12Mark Kotze was on the staff.
39:14He was a hitting coach.
39:14He was just starting coaching.
39:17Um, uh, you know, it was, it was one of those things we had kind of an eclectic team that wasn't supposed to win.
39:25They told me that when I took the job, but you know, we got to 500 and then September was really rough.
39:31They played the Dodgers and the Giants, I think 14 times.
39:35Uh, uh, um, and it w it was just a tough month, but, um, I just don't think either of us were essentially, you know, um, in a position to impact that team.
39:50Like we could have, and I especially wasn't ready in my mind.
39:54Um, I did some things and there were some good parts to it and I learned a lot, but, uh, it was, it was a tough 95 games.
40:00But when it comes to Preller, I mean, he's demanding, I think in a good way, um, he wants to win championships.
40:07He's not just about analytics.
40:09He's not just about, um, old school baseball, but the guy can provide you some prospects.
40:15The guy can provide you, um, you know, some players.
40:20And I think that they've shown that.
40:22And, um, and I think a lot of the managerial stuff so far for him has been on an individual basis and it happens.
40:30You know, they'll hit it.
40:31They'll get it right.
40:32And, um, you know, and, and I don't know that he's making the decision on all roles to be quite honest with you.
40:40You know, Murph, as a way to wrap up, uh, you know, we're talking a lot about the art of managing.
40:45And I think that there was real admiration across the breadth of the sport this year for how your team played, uh, seemed to play with lots of heart and hustle.
40:53It seemed to play technically well, uh, and needed to write yellow.
40:58You're a, with a U, a guerrilla operation, right?
41:01You're trying to beat the big boys with, you know, sticks and rocks.
41:06And they have more than that in weaponry.
41:08And I don't know, Murph, when I, when I see things go wrong in New York, I say, why isn't this addressed?
41:14And they'll say, oh, you know, it's tougher in New York or the players are a different breed of players.
41:18And I'm like, I don't know.
41:20Seems Pat Murphy seems to be able to tell players what they need to hear to play the game right.
41:25Using you as an example, do you think the players still, like, I think players want to be led even in 2025 and do the right thing.
41:33And I wonder what, what you think about kind of the art of managing right now in 2025.
41:38Can you tell a hard truth to a player to get him to play the game the right way?
41:42Yeah, absolutely.
41:44But I don't know that I'm good at it.
41:46And I don't know, again, I mean this, like, I don't know that I'm good at it.
41:49But I think crucial conversations are imperative to lead.
41:54Crucial conversations.
41:56And I want to tell you, they're not fun.
41:59They give you trepidation and whatever.
42:01But you have to be willing to make crucial decisions with crucial conversations.
42:08And to me, bringing out of the best in players is about the player.
42:14The player has to decide and have reason decide to be hungry to play to win.
42:18And to play the game, you can call it the right way.
42:22There's a huge ambiguous kind of understanding of winning players and how to play the right way.
42:30And I think you can draw it out of almost anyone.
42:33This is like mental toughness.
42:34You can draw it.
42:35Everybody can access it.
42:36You know, but I can tell you a million times I didn't access it.
42:40And I can tell you, and nobody would say, hey, Pat Murphy's not a good competitor.
42:44But the truth is, there's been plenty of times when I'm not a good competitor.
42:47That I didn't go get my mental toughness.
42:50That I made an excuse or that I wasn't hungry.
42:53And again, I think if you critically analyze yourself and you're constantly under construction to get better,
42:59this is leadership.
43:00It's trying to be authentic but real about where players need to go and helping them understand you don't have all the answers because you have all the money.
43:11Money doesn't give you answers.
43:12It's just, you know, maybe bigger houses and nicer cars.
43:16But it doesn't give you the answer on what you need to do, what adjustment you need to make in order to make this thing go.
43:22And the effect you have on others.
43:24That's the other thing.
43:25Players don't realize the effect they have on others.
43:28And it can be one bad apple that gets our minds on the wrong stuff.
43:34It's about winning tonight.
43:36How do you get them ready day in and day out to win tonight?
43:39No matter what you got going on off the field.
43:41No matter how much the stock market went down or how much your significant other, you know, crashed the car.
43:47It's about winning tonight.
43:51I don't know if I answered it, Joel.
43:52No, you did.
43:54I mean, again, I don't think your team plays smart and hard by accident, no matter how you might downplay that.
44:05And I don't think teams that play dumb and leave some of their energy in the clubhouse do that by accident either.
44:13So that was my way of saying I'm assuming I'm going to see you at the baseball writers dinner again because I think you're going to win manager of the year again.
44:20And it will be well earned.
44:23And more important for the immediacy, you mentioned being on the show.
44:28John and I do.
44:29You know, we've had this now two weeks in a row.
44:32A.J. Hinch came on after his team was eliminated.
44:34This isn't an easy time for people who put in the time, energy, and heart that guys like you put into a season.
44:41So John and I truly appreciate, with the season over, you joining us and giving your insights on the show.
44:48So thank you so much, Murph, for joining us.
44:50My pleasure, man.
44:51My pleasure.
44:58John and I thank Pat Murphy, manager of the Milwaukee Brewers, for joining us on the show.
45:03John, hit or error?
45:04I'm going to give a hit to Cal Raleigh.
45:0665 home runs.
45:08That's a lot of home runs for a clean player.
45:11I think it's probably the most ever, right, overall, counting the playoffs.
45:16Incredible.
45:16While he's catching, he did a great job.
45:20You know, to me, deserves plaudits.
45:23I saw his interview afterward.
45:25He looked very sad, naturally, that they lost.
45:28A lot of his doing.
45:30Just a terrific, terrific player.
45:32I kind of think Judge is probably going to be the MVP.
45:35But Raleigh, if he wins it, you know, he's earned it as well.
45:40Yeah, 65 homers.
45:41It was one more than Judge had in his year when he hit 62.
45:45Judge got to 64.
45:46So it was a 65-64 win there.
45:48Though, to your point, I'm not sure he's going to win in the other place.
45:51And I guess a hit is the right, you know, word to use there for somebody who hit like Cal Raleigh
45:58and really looked like he was on fumes at the end and still came up with a huge homer
46:02in the last game of his season.
46:04John, I'm going to go to that game also.
46:06I'm going to give a hit here to Don Mattingly, who I think is somebody you and I, we both
46:13covered him when he was a player and we were still beat writers.
46:16I try to impress upon people who are younger now just how big Don Mattingly was.
46:22Last night, I was around John Schneider in the clubhouse after the game, and I asked
46:28him what it meant for Mattingly to finally, after four-plus decades in the sport, to finally
46:35get to his first World Series.
46:36And John Schneider reminded us that, like, there were a lot of people in the game like
46:40him.
46:40He grew up, his idol was Don Mattingly.
46:43He had the Hitman poster on his wall.
46:46And he said, someplace my 10-year-old self is jumping up and down on the bed because Don
46:51Mattingly is finally going to a World Series.
46:53It was a beautiful quote by Schneider about somebody who I think has given his heart and
46:59his energy to the game, who's somebody who handled greatness well.
47:05He was always available for guys like us.
47:07He was never cliche-ridden.
47:08That's, by the way, still true today.
47:10I saw him after game six, and we chatted for a while.
47:14He's as gracious and kind and nice as ever.
47:17And I think to know Don Mattingly is to like him, and I think to know him is to be happy
47:22that for the first time in a long, distinguished career, he is going to play the last games
47:28of the season.
47:29Absolutely.
47:30We're all thrilled for Don Mattingly, who, as you said, is one of the best guys in the
47:34game and, to me, should be in the Hall of Fame.
47:37I voted for him.
47:38Did they give us 15 chances or 10 back then?
47:40I don't know.
47:41I think he was up 15, right?
47:42So I voted for him 15 times.
47:44He should be in the Hall of Fame.
47:45If you were around then to watch it, he was the best player in the game over a five-year
47:50period overall.
47:52Incredible first baseman and great hitter.
47:56Batting average, developed power, incredible.
48:00And it's great to see.
48:02And it's all come around full circle.
48:04It's been an amazing career to see that, I mean, he was a Yankee as many years as Willie
48:11Randolph.
48:12Willie Randolph had six rings with the Yankees, but he was with the Yankees in the 70s and
48:17the 90s, whereas Mattingly was there in the 80s and the early 2000s.
48:21So he missed all those chances.
48:24It's fantastic that he gets there.
48:26He's gotten to avenge a few things here.
48:28As you know, you were there in 95, it was the Mariners who knocked Mattingly out.
48:34The one chance he had as a player in the playoffs, he played great.
48:38Seattle ended up winning it.
48:40Now, Mattingly's Toronto team just beat Seattle.
48:43Now he's going against the Dodgers, who he managed.
48:47He was the first manager of this very regime, Mark Walter's regime.
48:51He left after 2015, parted ways, then became a Marlins manager, but got to the LCS in 2013
49:01with the Dodgers, didn't make it.
49:03He is the predecessor to Roberts with the Dodgers, so it'll be interesting to see if they do pull
49:08the upset.
49:09I mean, it all came up back for Mattingly.
49:12Even the hair policy was overturned this year, right?
49:16That was a Mattingly fight back in 1991, right?
49:21And he's got it all, so maybe he'll get everything that he wants.
49:26Yeah, it wasn't much of a fair fight, Don Mattingly versus Stump Merrill, but yeah, it
49:29was a fight back then.
49:31But there was George Steinbrenner then also, even though he wasn't supposed to be around,
49:36he was around.
49:37But anyway, yeah, I think we're all happy to see Donnie be involved in this.
49:45I'm sure he'll have a great time during this.
49:50John, we always thank Tommy Hogan, our producer, who does such a great job.
49:55Again, both of us have been moving around like crazy, and that's not going to change.
49:59And Tommy always jumps in at a moment's notice when we tell him when we could get a guest
50:03and what time, and he makes it all happen.
50:05We appreciate that.
50:07Apple, Spotify, wherever you listen to your podcast, please rate and review us.
50:11Those do help us with the show.
50:13So does going to the New York Post YouTube sports page, New York Post sports YouTube
50:18page, and giving us views.
50:20Come on, give us some grades.
50:21Tell us what you think.
50:22Leave some comments.
50:24And in a couple of days, John and I are leaving from the World Series, which means sometime during
50:29the Fall Classic, we're going to jump back on.
50:31So we hope you stick with us on the show with Joel Sherman and John Heyman.
50:34We'll see you next time.
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