- 2 months ago
Paul Rowley has been made head coach of St Helens after the exit of Paul Wellens. Will trophies finally return to Saints? Will Jackson, Pete Smith, Sam Cook and Sam Brocksom debate it on this week's Serious About Rugby League Show.
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00:00Hello and welcome to the Serious Podcast rugby league show. I'm your host Will Jackson. Joining
00:12me today is Sam Broxham and Sam Cook of Serious Podcast rugby league and Pete Smith of the Yorkshire
00:17Evening Post. We couldn't find the time to record last week. It was a busy week, I'm sure you can
00:23understand, but we'll look slightly back on last week. Obviously since we've last recorded, Hulk
00:30won the grand final, they're the treble winners. We've had the England squad announced. Bradford
00:37Bulls have been promoted to Super League, as have York Knights and Toulouse Olympic. Paul
00:43Rowley is now the head coach of St Helens, replacing Paul Wellens. Yeah, and we're looking ahead
00:51to the first Ashes test this week as well, so we've got plenty to discuss. So let's just
00:58quickly recap on the IMG gradings then and what happened there. Pete, give us your thoughts
01:05on Bradford being promoted as part of the, I mean, they got the top 12 spot in the IMG
01:11gradings, so they earned their spot. They did. Credit to them. It's not been a popular decision,
01:19has it really. I think it highlights an issue with the grading system, the fact that Bradford
01:30still playing at Oddsall have got into Super League. And they weren't that far off an A grade,
01:36actually. That's not a criticism of anything Bradford have done. To get their light casts last year,
01:46they ticked the boxes they needed to tick. And it worked for them. But the system has to change.
01:56Oddsall's not fit to Sage Super League. I know Bradford are saying it's not as bad as it looks,
02:02and they're going to tidy it up. But it's not Super League. The Super League venue, really. Well,
02:08it is, but it shouldn't be. If they were moving to, say, Valley Parade, I think it would be a
02:14different matter. I think everyone would say, yeah, welcome back. Tough for them as a newly promoted
02:25club. But they are getting, as a top 12 team, they are getting the full funding, which is being denied
02:33to the other two. The two that came up through the application process, York and Toulouse,
02:39will only get roughly half of the funding that Bradford gets. So that will give Bradford an
02:43advantage. They've already made a start with the recruitment and the Ackers coming in from Leeds.
02:49Roan Mills has rejoined them, having played for Hulkear and Cass. And they'll have a fighting
02:57chance of staying up, I think. Whether they can be competitive on the field remains to be seen,
03:04doesn't it? But the big problem they've got is obviously Oddsall. I've seen a lot of away fans
03:11saying that they won't travel there. Whether that will actually happen or not, I don't know.
03:17But it's, as I say, I just don't see it as a Super League venue. It's good for Cass,
03:26though, because they no longer have the worst ground in Super League.
03:30Yeah, as members of the press, Castleford isn't the nicest place to go in terms of a press
03:36box. In terms of the stadium, then Sam Cooke. Look, I mean, Bradford probably are the biggest,
03:45or probably have been, the biggest club outside Super League as an entity. But the stadium,
03:51the way it looks, even on TV, with a stock car racing track around it, is it a good look
03:57for Super League?
03:58I'm not sure. I think Sky Sports might have to get a bit creative with how they present it as such.
04:05I know that the stock car, they've got a long-term lease there, so you can't just say,
04:10all right, we'll get rid of that now. So that solution can't be done. I know that Jason Hurst
04:16said that they're going to look into, I think, a number of different solutions to sort of tidy up the
04:22corners, because I think that's where the real issue is. I mean, you look at those corners,
04:28and for the way wingers finish these days, where we're like flying acrobatics, you're going
04:32to end up off the grass and into the sand, and it's not, it doesn't look that great. But
04:39then again, we just had a grand final at Old Trafford, where the in goal is, what the in goal
04:43is, it's not, they're not the only ground that have got issues. But I think, yeah, Sky may
04:50have to, I think they're probably going to try and sell it on the, oh, it's Nostalgia,
04:56it's Bullmania, et cetera. But you can tell us all that all you want. But when you see
05:01half-empty crowds, it's not going to, it's not going to sell properly, is it? So I think,
05:07I wouldn't say it's a state.
05:09What is the solution? What's the solution?
05:13I don't think, it's big, big investment, isn't it? But then, even with the investment,
05:18they say the stock car lease is still there. So you can't just remove that. I mean, a paint
05:25job only goes so far as well. Like, I don't know what the solution is, but I think you
05:32kind of have to just embrace the world. You kind of just have to lean into the on-field
05:37product. And hopefully, if they're investing in the squad, as they say they are going to
05:42be, and they've got the full cap, then the product will be good enough that we can kind
05:49of ignore the visuals. But I think it's going to be, I mean, they've only got, what, four
05:58months, three months? It's not, to get that up to scratch is, well, it's impossible, but
06:03to get it as close to, as close to passable as they can, I think there's going to be a lot
06:08of work done. And I'm not sure it still won't be enough, really.
06:12Yeah, Sambi, I mean, in terms of their on-field product, then, look, they've got, as Pete
06:17mentioned, a full share of central funding. They've already started the recruitment. Are
06:24Bradford here to stay in Super League, then?
06:28I think they'll certainly hope so. I mean, the signing of Andy Ackers is a very good one
06:33if he can get back to his best. Obviously, he was an England international in 2022. As
06:39Pete mentioned, Milnes is going back there as well. Jason Hurst, I think he said about
06:43eight or nine new signings are coming in. And especially with this new funding, it's
06:48only going to help them, you know, return these bigger players that they're going to
06:52get now. And yeah, I think of the three, I think they might have the best chance at the
06:58net. Yeah, York and Toulouse, the other two, then. Is that the right call? Is everyone
07:05unanimous with that?
07:07Yeah, definitely.
07:09Well, after all the fuss overgradings and the application process, the bottom team in
07:18Super League has gone down and the top three in the Championship have come up. So, I mean,
07:23it's hard to argue on that score, isn't it? I've got some connections with York and I'm
07:33fascinated to see how they do. It potentially could be a real hit that, I think, I worry
07:46it may become a little bit too early for them. But they've been building steadily for the best
07:52part of eight or nine years. They were top of the Championship last year. I think they
07:58won 20 straight games before losing to Luz in the Grand Final. They've made some good
08:04additions. They've got a nice stadium. It's not big. I think their capacity is about 8,000.
08:11But if they can get 4,000, 5,000 in there every week, there'll be a good atmosphere. And
08:17York's a nice city to visit. People, I think, will look forward to a trip to York. It'll be
08:23interesting to see when they'll play their home games. I hope they'll try to play as many as they
08:28can on a Sunday afternoon. I think that would be ideal for them. But their issue, like Toulouse,
08:35is the money. They've only got this £600,000 funding, which is less than their rivals. And
08:42they're not competing on a level playing field, unfortunately. I did speak to their
08:48owner, Clint, about this the other day, Clint Goodchild. And he said, well, it's actually
08:54a bonus because they weren't expecting to get any funding. So £600,000 is more than they
09:01expected. So they seem confident that they can make a go of it despite that handicap. And they
09:09do have some investors who are backing them quite heavily. They've got a very good coach
09:18in Mark Applegarth, who's proved that he can get the best out of his players. They've got
09:23a decent mix of experience and youth. And I mean, I'd be very, very surprised if they finished
09:34in the top half of the table next season. But I think they're certainly capable of avoiding
09:40the wooden spoon, which realistically will probably be their first objective for their
09:45first season back in Super League. And their goal will just be to entertain, provide a good
09:52match day experience and try and make sure they've got a team that are worth watching so
09:59they can build up their home support. They're averaging just a shade under 3,000 this year.
10:05Obviously, it's going to have to be a lot better than that if they're going to sustain a Super
10:10League club. But I think that the foundations are there for them and they'll have a lot of
10:16goodwill behind them as well, I think.
10:17Just quickly on York, what will, I mean, you live in the city, what will having a top
10:24flight team in any sport do for sport in the city and that fan base?
10:30Well, it's the first time for roughly 40 years. I think they've had a top flight
10:36rugby league team. Obviously, York City are non-league at the moment. It is a rugby league
10:43city. People don't realise, but York is a rugby league city. Always has been. It's got
10:50strong working class roots with the railway workers here and the chocolate factories and
10:55that sort of thing. It's a pretty typical rugby league city. It's just been starved of
11:01success. But they do produce players. There's quite a number of York lads running around in
11:10the Super League and the Championship at the moment. Ollie Pratt, the kid who's doing
11:16really well at Wakefield, is from a York club. In the past, they've all gone to academies
11:23at Leeds and Hull and Cass and Wakey. York don't have a youth system at the moment. They
11:29need to set that up so the local lads come through at their home city club. But there is
11:35a pool of support there. The problem is that because they've been starved of success for
11:40such a long time, people in York tend to go and watch other clubs. They watch Leeds
11:46or they watch Cass or they watch Hull or Hull KR. Getting them to come and watch York is
11:53going to be the key, I think, for the Knights. But having said that, you used to walk around
11:59York and you'd see a lot of Rhinos jerseys and a lot of Cass jerseys and a lot of Hull jerseys.
12:04And you still do. But now you see Knights jerseys as well. And they are beginning to make
12:09an impression on the city. And they're doing good. They're doing good things. They're involved
12:15in the community. They're quite a professional setup. They're a better run club than certain
12:23Super League clubs, which I won't name. But they are. They've got some expertise behind them
12:31and some know-how. And I think they'll have a go of it. And as you said, well, it's a city
12:39that has been starved of top flight sport for a very long time. And there's an appetite
12:45for it. If they're successful, I think they could do well. But obviously, being successful
12:53is not easy when you're up against teams that have more money and more resources.
13:00Yeah, Sam, London Broncos obviously came pretty close to getting that nod as well. Obviously,
13:07after the takeover, there's a lot of excitement around London Broncos. They've got a lot of,
13:11I mean, a couple of NRL signings made already. Is it just a case for the Broncos of waiting
13:16in 12 months and reassessing where they're at?
13:20I think it could be a blessing in disguise for London, to be honest. I think you look
13:24at York and Bradford, Antaloo, sorry, they've all kind of been almost rushed into this.
13:30I think Bradford obviously knew they were going to score high. They knew that they'd sort
13:34of worked that system. And I mean, like Pete said, they've come close to an A. So I think
13:40they were probably quite confident they were going to be up. So they've maybe had a bit
13:44more assurance in the fact they were going to be a Super League. So they've maybe had
13:48a couple more months. But I think the other two, they're kind of, it's really, it's really,
13:55really hard to make a squad now. Whereas London, OK, yeah, obviously for the investment
13:59that they're putting in, they're going to want immediate returns. But I think actually
14:02in the long run, you can kind of build something a lot more sustainable down there. If they do
14:09go up in 27, they'll probably be going up off the back of, if not a championship winning
14:15season, they'll have gone very close. So that winning games always buys you goodwill
14:19with the fans. I think it's interesting to see what the Ashes will do in terms of just
14:26creating interest in sport in London. I'm not saying obviously it's going to transform
14:30London to having 10,000 every week. But if a portion of those that go, I mean, even if
14:37you're looking at like one or 2% of those that attend the London game as Londoners, could
14:42be like, I will just go to a couple of games next season. Then that's the sort of thing
14:47that the sport needs in the capital, in that presence. And I think they can, of IMG, if
14:55that's how we're going next year, which as it stands, I believe is still the case, it's
14:59going to be just 14 straight on IMG. They need to make up a considerable amount. But Bradford
15:05have shown you can do that. Obviously Bradford have primacy of tenure as in their own
15:09odd soul, which London don't with where they play at the moment at the Cherry Records
15:14Stadium. But you can do a lot of work off field. Their books are going to get boosted
15:19because obviously finances on IMG work the year before, which is why Salford ironically
15:26scored fine on finances because the 2025 accounts weren't taken into account. But if London
15:33have pumped enough money in 2024, i.e. this year, that will show on their finances for
15:41next year, which means they could take a big jump there. Attendances, again, they can gain
15:46points there. I think they can do enough on the IMG and performance-wise, they can get,
15:53the key for them is going to be getting the bonuses that come with the 1895 Cup and the
15:58championship grand final. That's over a third of a point there that's just sitting free.
16:04And I think they've really got to target that. And it could end up being a system where
16:08we get almost just one at one down of who gained the points the year prior drops out because
16:15they'll lose them and who gains the points that next year, potentially London, will go
16:19up because they've gained them. So I wonder how it works stability-wise. But I do think it's
16:25probably good for London because they can just make it a completely professional operation.
16:31And I think with the players they're linked with, then it's probably quite exciting.
16:39Yeah, Sambi, Toulouse got those points that Sam was talking about this year in terms of
16:43they won the championship grand final. How pleased are you to see another French side
16:49back in Super League and, you know, a big city with so much room for potential, a bit like
16:54York? Yeah, I mean, it's great for the fans. It's another, you know, class away day in
16:59France. And I think it's just good to have a different team that's not on the M62. I mean,
17:06I know it's a fair bit away since it's in another country. But, you know, just expanding. And
17:12like you say, Toulouse is a great sporting city. They've obviously got the football, they've got
17:16the rugby union, which does compete with the league team. But, you know, they've got so much
17:24room to grow over there. And yeah, just having them in Super League is just another good step
17:33for the sport in, you know, growing the game. Obviously, I know it's a bit off feel, but the
17:38international game at the minute, you know, you've got teams like Netherlands, Malta, them teams
17:43that are doing well. And I think just expanding the game to different countries is only going
17:49to benefit us in the long run.
17:51Yeah, yeah. Well, look, three teams have come up, one's come down, Salford. The future's
17:57very uncertain for Salford right now. They've got a HMRC here in next week. We're promised
18:03an announcement this week as well off the ownership. Pete, it's uncertain times for Salford,
18:08isn't it?
18:08Yeah, very worrying. They're not the only one, are they? They were, I think, were the
18:13three asterisks?
18:15Yeah, Halifax and Featherston as well.
18:17Yeah, that's clubs who've got issues with the tax man, which is an age-old story in rugby
18:26league and I think probably in quite a lot of sports. But really feel for the Salford fans
18:31who, through no fault of their own, have just endured a really terrible year and at the
18:41moment there isn't really any sign of things getting an awful lot better. As has been
18:48mentioned, the financial turmoil this year will be taken into account next year, which
18:53obviously is not going to help them. The owners did put out a statement, I think, at the end
19:00of last week, but he didn't really say anything. And all the quality players have left. The
19:07coach, Paul Rowley, has gone now and credit to him for sticking with them throughout the
19:13season. But he's been a huge part of what Salford have done over the last few years and
19:19he's gone. I think it's going to be a while before we see Salford back in Super League. I suppose in the very
19:30long term, the positive they've got is Bradford have come back from probably an even worse situation. They
19:36actually technically went out of business, didn't they? And then miraculously re-emerged with the same
19:41name and same stadium and same players and same kit and everything. And they're back in Super League. So, you know, Salford
19:51aren't necessarily finished permanently in the top flight, but I think it'll be a while before we see them back up there again, which is a shame.
20:01Yeah, Sam C. Pete mentioned it there. Paul Rowley. He's the new head coach of St. Helens, replacing Paul Wellens. Give us your thoughts on that one.
20:12I think he's the perfect appointment. I think partly in terms of what was available, but also just in terms of the fit. You look at what
20:23St. Helens have struggled with and it's attack. And I think you look at the way that Paul Rowley teams play and they're one of the best
20:30teams to watch. And it's not even the issue with Saints hasn't just been, oh, well, they're not scoring points. It's how they actually do attack.
20:40I think a lot of people, a lot of Saints fans view it as kind of just almost like five up the jumper and a kick and the kick's never
20:47even that great with the spine at the moment. So the fact that they're going to get in completely new style of player, it just, that attracts fans.
20:55It puts fans back onto you. He may, he may well bring a couple of other soft players on board.
21:02I mean, they've already got Dion Cross and Sam Stone. And I think it's kind of, because it's a completely new face, like Paul Wellens obviously had associations with the club.
21:13And I think because it's a completely new face, you give him license to do whatever he wants.
21:18I think there's been talk already that is he going to make what George Witt be like the central focus.
21:23We all know Harry Robertson's best position, probably his natural position isn't centre. He's played sort of in the halves and a fullback as well.
21:31So what he, what they do there with him is interesting as well.
21:36And I think Paul Wellens couldn't really get away with putting Whitby and Robertson in the half because it just, it looked bad.
21:45But I think he, he, Paul Rowley has like a complete new license to do what he wants almost.
21:52He can try that if he wants, which I think is really exciting.
21:55And then just in terms of what you've still got there as well, they've still got, they're still one of the best defensive sides.
22:02So that, that work changed now that Paul Wellens has gone.
22:05So you blend that with the attack sense that Rowley's going to bring.
22:10And I think it just spells for, maybe not immediate success, but I think it does spell for success.
22:15And I think it'll be really interesting to see where they place next season.
22:19Yeah, Sam B, I mean, like, like what Sam said there in terms of Rowley likes to work with a young squad.
22:26There's a lot of promising young players at St Helens, you know, just mentioned a few, Harry Robertson, George Whitby, Owen Dagnall.
22:32In terms of the attacking struggles I've had this season, this is a really exciting time for St Helens fans, isn't it?
22:39In terms of what they can expect for 2026 and beyond.
22:44Yeah, I think it is.
22:45Obviously, as Sam alluded to, he's taken relatively undone players and made them into stars.
22:52I like to have Nick Arima, Brodie Croft, people like them.
22:54And I think if he does go with Whitby as a central focus, he's got Rowley.
22:59It'll be great for him to improve without having that pressure.
23:03I think they've still obviously got the Saylor and Wellesby dilemma.
23:10And I think if he unlocks that, that obviously Paul Wellens didn't do, yeah, I think their attack will really improve.
23:18Like you say, younger players are in the squad and I think Rowley has something that he can build on in these next three years.
23:25Yeah, well, on to Saturday then.
23:29Look, England take on Australia in front of around 60,000, I think, at Wembley.
23:36Pete, just firstly, I'm not coming to you because for your age, but it's been 22 years since the last Ashes series.
23:462017, I think, was the last time the two sides met.
23:50What does this rivalry mean and how big is it going to be for English Rugby League?
24:02That's sort of a bit of a difficult question because there's a whole generation of fans like you guys
24:10who've basically grown up without this rivalry, but for us older heads, it's the big thing.
24:21It's England, Australia in any sport, that's big, isn't it?
24:24You always want to get one over on the Aussies and particularly in Rugby League because they've had the ascendancy for so long.
24:33I mean, do you guys know when the last time England stroke Great Britain won an Ashes series?
24:4270s.
24:43Yeah, 70s, isn't it, I think, somewhere.
24:451970.
24:461970.
24:48And the last time they won a Test series in this country was in the 50s.
24:53So, you know, it's been a long time coming.
24:57I think it's 13 successive, excuse me, successive Ashes series.
25:04The Aussies have won.
25:07So, if Great Britain, sorry, England could turn that around, it would be absolutely massive for the game here.
25:15I think, certainly among Rugby League people and it's people like international sport, don't they?
25:21People that don't watch sport generally will watch international rivalry.
25:26People who aren't golf fans watch the Ryder Cup, for example, and I'm sure there'll be a lot of people who aren't necessarily Rugby League fans
25:34who will be tuning in to the Test matches this weekend, particularly the first Test at Wembley.
25:41The most important thing for England is to put up a decent performance.
25:43We don't want to see them get battered, obviously.
25:48We need them to show that they can compete with the Aussies.
25:52Whether they're going to win or not, it's a big ask, isn't it, against a quality side like that.
25:57But they need to show that they can compete.
26:01Yeah, it's going to be on national free-to-air TV.
26:06We've got three tests, two of them sold out.
26:07One of them, I think, at Everton's around 55,000.
26:11As I mentioned earlier, around 60,000 tickets sold at Wembley.
26:14Tickets still going for that one.
26:16It's absolutely massive that England, at least, deliver in some respects by competing with Australia, isn't it, Sam?
26:23Yeah, I think if the first Test is a complete blowout, then what's the, obviously the ticket that's already been sold,
26:30but what's the incentive for people to tune in on TV?
26:32I think a competitive first Test is necessary.
26:37And then just as a series overall as well, because you don't know when you're next going to get the opportunity.
26:44If this is a 3-0 whitewash and it's three comfortable wins,
26:47then Australia will just see more, they'll see more benefit in just sticking in the Pacific Championships, probably.
26:55And, you know, it's been so long to get it, to then squander it would be such a shame.
27:02So I think it does need to be competitive.
27:04And I think it can be competitive as well.
27:06I think how games are refereed is going to be a big thing.
27:09I think there's talk that it's English referee, Australian referee, and then kind of a best of or whoever's performed the best for the third Test.
27:18But we know that Super League and the NRL are refereed differently.
27:22We know that, obviously, I mean, there's NRL aspects to the England team, but the bulk is Super League players.
27:28So they'll know if it's refereed potentially a bit slower, it's going to suit England.
27:33And if it's fast, then I think Australia could really get away from England with it.
27:37So I think that's key.
27:39But I think also, I'm not saying that it should be refereed a certain way, but what it should be refereed is consistently.
27:45I think you can't have three games that look completely different because the referee is completely differently.
27:51So that is just as a side note, that is important.
27:53But I think it's massive that England make a dent in the first Test.
27:59I think if the first Test is an easy win for Australia, then they'll know that I think they're only going to get better having travelled across.
28:06So I think England have a big opportunity in the first Test.
28:11Obviously, Heddenley is going to be probably the biggest atmosphere in terms of home support, just because it's a bit more of a cauldron, really.
28:18But Wembley, when it's more probably neutral split, there'll be a lot of Aussies there.
28:25But I think England have to really take it to Australia and I think they can do.
28:30But I think England players have to be nines and tens and hope that Australia players turns up a sort of, you know, sevens, really.
28:37And that's kind of out of England's hands as such.
28:42You've raised a good point there, actually, Sam.
28:46I think off the field can make a big difference at Wembley.
28:50Wembley's a big one.
28:51And Wembley's is the best chance England have got to get one over the Aussies.
28:58Let's be honest about this.
28:59As Sam says, the Aussies are going to get better as the series goes on.
29:04If you win the first Test, then England do have a chance.
29:10It's a big, big Test, but they have a chance.
29:12But the fans can make a difference.
29:14And the way that the RFL organise the game or set up the pre-match can make a big difference.
29:20I, being a little bit older than you guys, was at Wembley in 1990 when there were 50, I think about 55,000 in.
29:31They've just passed that total of tickets now for this one.
29:35And Land of Hope and Glory was played as the teams came out.
29:40Everybody was up singing and creating a racket.
29:45And you could see the Aussies.
29:46I couldn't remember it.
29:47You could see the Aussies looking at each other and saying, we're not used to this.
29:52And it shook them.
29:53And Great Britain took advantage and they won that Test match.
29:55And I think that if everybody gets behind England this week, it could have a similar effect.
30:03The RFL need to pump up the volume, get everybody waving flags and chanting and create a hostile atmosphere.
30:11And, you know, it's us against them, isn't it?
30:15I think people off the field have a role to play.
30:18And I think we need to put to one side all the arguments about who's in the team and who Sean Wayne should have picked and who he hasn't picked and who he has picked.
30:27We all know, we've all disagreed with certain aspects of his selection.
30:31We'll all agree with certain aspects.
30:33I mean, I think Jake Connor should be in the squad, but he's not.
30:38And it's England, we're English.
30:41We need to get down there, support the game if you can.
30:44If you're thinking, shall I go, shall I not go, go.
30:46So it's these opportunities, as we've seen, it's 20 odd years since the last time we played them.
30:54It was the 90s, I think, last time we played them in an Ashes Test at Wembley.
31:01These opportunities don't come along very often.
31:03If you can get a ticket, just go to the game, get behind England.
31:07Let's see whether we can really make it tough for the Aussies, because we know man for man they've got a better squad.
31:16But it's in England, it's English conditions, it's an English stadium.
31:24They're not used to playing in Ashes Tests.
31:26They haven't played in Ashes Tests before either.
31:29I think how it's handled off the field could make a big difference.
31:34I hope the RFL help the fans to create an atmosphere.
31:38And I think if the fans do turn up and create an atmosphere, like in 1990, England will have a chance of upsetting the Aussies, particularly in the first Test.
31:46Yeah, I mean, I think we all echo your sentiment there, but do you think the RFL have made a mistake by making the first one at Wembley and not Headingley in that respect?
31:58I don't, no, I can see the sense in it.
32:03I think they've done the right thing.
32:05Well, they've sold out the second and third Tests.
32:09So you can't argue the strategy worked.
32:11By making the third Test at Headingley with a small capacity, they sort of created a demand for tickets for the other Tests.
32:22And that was the objective.
32:24And I think it's worked.
32:26And, you know, if we do go into the third Test at 1-1, it's going to be a heck of an atmosphere at Headingley.
32:35It really will be hostile for the Aussies if that's the case.
32:40I don't have a problem.
32:43Don't have a problem.
32:43Yeah, no, I just barely say that.
32:45Everton's a great venue.
32:47People want to go to that because it's new, don't they?
32:49And it's, you know, it's something a bit different.
32:52Wembley has its own attraction.
32:56The danger of, obviously, they wouldn't...
32:59Wembley, you could maybe say, well, if it was 1-1, they'd sell it out for the third Test.
33:04But what's going to happen if it's not 1-1, if the Aussies are 2-0 up?
33:08I think it'd be too much of a gamble.
33:10I think they've done it the right way around.
33:13And I hope it's going to be a big success off the field.
33:17Yeah, I just made it sense.
33:19If you're saying that the best chance to beat England, beat Australia,
33:23is to make it a hostile environment and really catch them cold almost,
33:26and Headingley would be the best place for that, wouldn't it?
33:31Well, potentially, but, you know, that might be the case in the third Test,
33:37mightn't it?
33:38We'll have to see.
33:38I think the Aussies, I think a full Wembley can make a difference.
33:49Maybe I'm out of date.
33:50Maybe I'm just thinking too much about 1990 or 1995 when England beat them there in the World Cup.
33:57But it certainly made a difference then.
33:59And I think it can do again.
34:02And as I say, if they're going to have a game staged at Wembley,
34:06it has to be the first test.
34:09It just doesn't work staging any other game there.
34:13It has to be the first test.
34:14And I think prestige-wise, Wembley just shows that this is a serious business,
34:22this test series, and that it's something a little bit out of the ordinary.
34:27So I agree with them playing it at Wembley,
34:29and I agree with them staging the first test there.
34:33Yeah.
34:33Sam B, then, where does Sean Wayne look for his spark this week against the Aussies then?
34:39Who is he looking to catch them cold and maybe blow a hole in their line?
34:47Well, I think the obvious one's Mikey Lewis.
34:49Whether he starts or not is a different question,
34:51because I do think it'll be Williams and Smith as a start in six and seven.
34:57But as we saw in the grand final,
34:59Lewis has achieved that big game performance that he was waiting for in his career,
35:03and now he's hoping to push on and deliver it against the Aussies.
35:08I think Jez Lytton will be another key one with his speed out of dummy half.
35:14Obviously, Wells will be at the back.
35:15And then they've got, if they can find,
35:18if Harry Smith's kicking game is on point,
35:19as it has been at most of this season,
35:21they've got some electric wingers in Burgess and Dom Young
35:26to try and attack them edges.
35:28I know Australia have got pretty tall wingers and pretty pacey wingers,
35:33so it's going to be a tough edge battle for England.
35:36But, yeah, I think we've got enough to compete.
35:40Whether we'll get over that line is a different question,
35:42but I think we've certainly got enough to compete.
35:46Tom C, does Mikey Lewis play?
35:51He definitely doesn't start,
35:53and I think if he plays, then it's as the utilities.
35:57It's going to be potentially a hooker,
35:59and I'm not sure that...
36:02I can't see that.
36:05I think it's going to be...
36:07I think he's going to be left out, to be honest with you.
36:11Yeah, I'm just not sure you can justify putting square pegs
36:19in round holes, really, when you're playing Australia.
36:22I think Jez Lutton, and Jez Lutton for me is the best hooker,
36:26whether he starts or whether he comes on off the bench,
36:28as he did in the grand final,
36:29like with Clark playing that McAlorham role
36:32of kind of being physical for the first 20.
36:35I'm not sure, but I think your three other spots
36:37on the bench have got to...
36:38You can't carry two, either hookers or utilities on the bench.
36:42You've got to go pack the forwards out.
36:45So he leaves one spot, and I think it'll be the spare hooker.
36:48I don't really see the point in playing Lewis's utility nine.
36:54I think he's sure he can do it, but I'm not sure about it.
36:58The only thing that I'd argue that he has over either Clark or Lutton
37:02is his kicking game, but then Jez Lutton's
37:04kicking game has been pretty good this year as well.
37:07I actually think, the question you asked to Sam about the spark,
37:10I actually think Lutton could be the spark.
37:12I think he's really, really impressed out of dummy half this year.
37:17He creates...
37:18Well, I mean, Jared Ray Hargreeze has that massive carry
37:21that then effectively sets up the try,
37:23but it's Lutton screwing from dummy half,
37:24and then he's on the end to get the offload
37:26when he scores the try as well.
37:28And I think that's the sort of thing that Darryl Clark,
37:32probably because of his legs aren't there anymore,
37:34but he can't do that.
37:35But what he can do is his distribution's good
37:38and his game sense and physicality's good as well.
37:41So I see a reason for both of them to feature,
37:45more so probably than Mikey Lewis,
37:47because if you're not putting Lewis in the house,
37:49which he won't,
37:50because Williams and Smith are better defensively and trusted,
37:54that I don't think Lewis is worth carrying.
37:58He's maybe your 18th man is where I'd go,
38:01but I don't see him actually starting
38:04or probably featuring off the bench,
38:06to be honest with you.
38:08Pete, do you think the Pax can compete?
38:14I think they're obviously going to find it tough, aren't they?
38:20The worry is that we're going to try
38:24and get into an arm wrestle with them
38:27and a grind.
38:29And I don't think that's the way to beat the Aussies
38:33or traditionally hasn't been the way for England
38:35or Great Britain to beat the Aussies.
38:38I think you need to throw something
38:40a little bit different at them.
38:41And that's why I'd have gone with Lewis
38:43and Connor in the halves.
38:45And I know the question marks
38:46over the defence and everything,
38:48but I think if England try to play the Aussies
38:52out of their own game,
38:53they're going to find it very hard.
38:56It is a tall order.
39:02The Pax would set the platform, don't they?
39:08We're going to need the Pax to step up.
39:10There are some good players in that Pax.
39:13I just look up the Aussies out and think,
39:16well, rather them than me.
39:22I think Australia not having Paine Haas is massive.
39:25I mean, if Paine Haas was involved,
39:27then I'd basically write it off straight away.
39:30But the fact he's not,
39:32I mean, I don't know if anyone's seen what he did
39:34for Samoa of the weekend,
39:35but I think 52 tackles and he's played 79 minutes
39:38or something.
39:38He actually got spelled off
39:40and then someone got injured,
39:41so he had to come straight back on.
39:42But I think him missing or him choosing to play
39:46for Samoa is massive in terms of England's chances
39:48in the pack.
39:50But I'm not sure.
39:52We just don't have the sort of the big impact players
39:56off the bench.
39:57It's a kind of dying breed of prop,
39:59but the likes of a Sam Lassone,
40:02who can kind of come on and like really bang.
40:04We don't have that and I'm not sure
40:07that we can kind of intimidate them.
40:10So like pieces,
40:11I'm not sure we can go head to head with them.
40:12I think you kind of just have to be smart
40:16in how you play it
40:17and you kind of ask for a bit more.
40:20I think Morgan knows he's going to be massive as well.
40:22I think he's probably one of England's best
40:23in that pack.
40:25And you might have to ask him
40:26to do a bit more ball playing as well.
40:29But Paine Haas not being there is,
40:32it's not quite 1-0 to England,
40:33but it means they're definitely not 1-0 down,
40:35I'd say.
40:36In terms of that all-out powerhouse prop,
40:39is Alex Wormsley the closest to it?
40:41I know he's not the player
40:42that he probably was a couple of years ago,
40:44but is he the closest to it for you?
40:47Yeah, probably actually.
40:48I think that is probably the reason
40:50why he's involved.
40:52I think you spell him.
40:53I think Meek and Matty Lees
40:56can both play long minutes.
40:57I'm not sure whether they're the starting two or not,
40:59but I think they can both play long.
41:01I think if you're getting Wormsley in stints,
41:03then he can kind of replicate that to an extent.
41:06He's probably not the same,
41:07but I think he's maybe the best
41:10of what is available, yeah.
41:13Well, I'm going to wrap this up
41:14with a question of,
41:17have England,
41:18I'm not going to ask for serious predictions,
41:20but have England genuinely got a chance
41:22in this series?
41:24What do you think?
41:32Based on several factors,
41:35including years and years and years
41:36of bitter experience,
41:38no.
41:41Brilliant, let's go watch it.
41:44I tend to agree as well.
41:47I think they've got a chance
41:48of sneaking a test,
41:49but I don't think they've got a chance
41:51of sneaking the series.
41:53But,
41:53even if England don't win,
41:56and I'd desperately,
41:58would desperately love to see
41:59England win the Ashes,
42:01it's the one thing in rugby league
42:03I've not seen,
42:04and I would really,
42:05really like to see
42:06England win the Ashes.
42:08I don't think we're going to,
42:09but,
42:10even if we don't,
42:11I'm looking forward to seeing
42:12some of the best players in the world
42:13playing rugby league
42:15in our country
42:16and on our doorstep
42:18in a couple of test matches
42:20and I'd repeat what I said before,
42:22you know,
42:23if you can get a ticket for Wembley,
42:25go,
42:25you won't regret it.
42:26Even if,
42:27even if England
42:29get beaten,
42:30get beat quite convincingly
42:32at Wembley,
42:32you're still going to be seeing
42:33some,
42:34some world-class players
42:36on show for the Aussies
42:37and it's going to be
42:40a good occasion.
42:42Look,
42:42I'm hesitant to say this,
42:44but does it mean more to us
42:46than it does them as well?
42:49Yeah,
42:49of course it does.
42:50They've won the last 13 series.
42:53Yeah.
42:54They think,
42:55they think,
42:55they think the ultimate
42:57is state of origin.
43:00Sadly,
43:01that needs to change.
43:02If the game's going to grow,
43:03that needs to change.
43:04The only way that's going to change
43:05is if,
43:06if England
43:07or other nations
43:08can start producing sides
43:10consistently
43:10that beat the Aussies.
43:13Then you'd see
43:14their attitude change
43:15because they don't like
43:16being second best,
43:17do they?
43:17They'd be pretty desperate
43:18to,
43:19to get their,
43:21their title back.
43:23It does mean more
43:24to us than them.
43:25We've waited
43:26such a long time
43:27for it.
43:28If the international game
43:30is going to expand,
43:30it needs
43:31England
43:32and it needs
43:33New Zealand
43:34and potentially
43:35Samoa and Tonga
43:37to be competing
43:37with the Aussies
43:38on a regular,
43:39regular basis.
43:40the Aussies
43:41don't take it
43:43as seriously
43:43as we do.
43:45They regard it
43:46as almost
43:47a second-ranked competition.
43:48That's because
43:48they've been so dominant
43:49for so long.
43:50It's time that that changed.
43:51We need to show them
43:52that,
43:52that,
43:53that the English game
43:56is in,
43:57in better state,
43:58better health
43:59than they think it is.
44:00Yeah,
44:02I think that's a good place
44:03to,
44:03to leave it then.
44:06Look,
44:07if you,
44:08if you like this video,
44:09give it,
44:09give it,
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44:11Subscribe to the channel
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44:13And,
44:13yeah,
44:14thanks for watching.
44:15We'll be back next Monday
44:16to look back on the,
44:17on the first test.
44:24Thanks for joining us.
44:26Please like and share
44:27and we'll see you next week.
44:30Thanks for joining us.
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