00:00Let's turn from there to the big questions.
00:02Can green crackers really check pollution?
00:05Will the pollution fight gains now go up in smoke?
00:08Has the Supreme Court chosen religious sentiments over public health?
00:13Vikram Singh, former DGPUP, joins me.
00:16Ronak Sutaria is founder and CEO, Respirer Living Sciences.
00:21And Ashwini Dubey is an advocate, Supreme Court.
00:23Appreciate all of you joining us on the show there.
00:28Ronak Sutaria, to you first.
00:29You might have heard the minister saying that people's sentiments have to be respected.
00:34Even when there was a total ban, people were bursting crackers.
00:37Now, they will be more responsible because at least the court has respected their sentiments.
00:43How do you respond to this argument of religious sentiments being respected
00:47when a partial lift of the ban has been made?
00:52Hi, Rajdeep. Thanks for the session.
00:54And actually, it's an unfortunate verdict.
00:57I think I honestly feel, you know, we've been tracking it since morning, you know, when this came out.
01:03And I think the term green crackers is actually quite misleading.
01:07You know, it is being used regularly to describe this.
01:11And as you yourself, you all showed right now that, you know, the 30% reduction that is being talked about
01:16is essentially the barium nitrate, the arsenic and the lead, you know, which is being eliminated from these so-called green crackers.
01:25And actually, I don't want to use the term green crackers, but essentially just the crackers, you know, which will have...
01:31Are you saying there's nothing, just a minute, for our viewers to understand,
01:37are you saying there's nothing like a green cracker that any cracker is polluting?
01:42I mean, see, essentially, the crackers which have been certified for sale,
01:47they are still going to have about 125 to 130 decibels of sound,
01:52as compared to the 160 decibels, which the regular crackers provide.
01:58You know, normal hearing is at about 40 decibels.
02:0140 to 50 decibels, you know, it starts becoming an issue.
02:05So the noise is one part of it.
02:07The air quality, Delhi actually is going to hit about 1,000 AQI.
02:11You know, currently just this small...
02:13I mean, right now it is at 250 AQI, the city.
02:16In about three days, it's going to hit 1,000 AQI.
02:19Now a 30% reduction in 1,000 AQI is 700 levels.
02:24Is that what we really want to target after, you know, five years of Supreme Court debates?
02:29If we are saying that bringing them down by 300 AQI is the best we can do for our children,
02:36I think it's an unfortunate decision.
02:39Not getting into the sentiments of it, I think...
02:43I heard the advocates, you know, debate,
02:45Advocate Love Virani, who basically represented the Firecracker Traders Association.
02:51And the entire debate was made around the livelihood of the firecracker industry.
02:57I'm given to believe there are about 8 lakh to 10 lakh people who are employed in the Shivakasi region.
03:04Cumulatively, about 15 lakh people's livelihood is at stake, is what this debate was.
03:11At least a good part of this debate was around the livelihood of 15 lakh people.
03:16Now, 15 lakh people's livelihood, a four-day ban, I don't know.
03:21You know, really the debate is about can we replace the manufacturing industry, provide livelihood?
03:26Because bursting of crackers for three days, in my understanding, the folks who are suffering,
03:33the vulnerable population, those who have asthma, you know, the children who are less than five,
03:38it is going to be extremely severe, you know.
03:40And we have to stop using the term green crackers because it's extremely misleading.
03:45You're saying look at it purely from a public health perspective.
03:48That should have been the focus of what the Supreme Court should have said.
03:53I want to at this moment turn to the lawyer on the panel.
03:56Ashwini Dubey, you're an advocate Supreme Court.
03:58I'm told you're a supporter of the idea that people should be allowed to celebrate Diwali with crackers.
04:04Here you're hearing an environmental science activist saying it's very clear public health should be above religious sentiments.
04:13How do you respond?
04:14Now, see, the Supreme Court is not only considered the religious aspect.
04:20Mr. Rajdeep Sardisai, the NERI exercise was undertaken and there was a classification between the crackers,
04:28one green cracker, and that was initiated in 2018.
04:32So NERI, this is one of the topmost institutions of this country,
04:36which has developed compositions of green crackers that can particulate emissions by a minimum of 30 percent
04:42by ranking up to 80 percent while maintaining brightness, safety, and shelf life.
04:47Number two, it is not only the firecrackers which are emitting pollution or responsible for Delhi's air pollution.
04:54If you've seen past Supreme Court is hearing this matter since 2021 and even 2019,
05:02when the Supreme Court was hearing this matter, one committee was formulated with the chief secretaries,
05:06with the pollution control board activists and also certain other persons of Rajasthan, Haryana, Delhi, and Uttar Pradesh.
05:13They were asked for a composite study to submit to the court.
05:18Now, the Supreme Court, there are factors which are responsible for the pollution,
05:22which are stable bugging, reduced wind speed, effect of the winds,
05:26and dip in temperature, lowers in inversion height, vehicular pollution, and construction activities.
05:32It is not only the firecracker which was responsible for Delhi's air pollution.
05:38Now, two aspects.
05:39One, the religious aspect.
05:41Another, the scientific aspect.
05:42So, eco-friendly, eco-friendly, the firecrackers allowed to be burst for two hours by the Supreme Court was undertaken.
05:53And for that, the Supreme Court has asked clearly to the executive to ensure that each and every paragraph
06:00and the directions given by the Supreme Court has to be complied in true letter and spirit.
06:04You have just heard the Environment Minister of Delhi.
06:07He has said that he will undertake.
06:08And if anybody violates, it is the responsibility of the executive if somebody is beyond…
06:13How in a…
06:14You see, that is the question.
06:16You are saying enforce.
06:17It is the duty of the executive to enforce it.
06:20I'll come back to you, Ashwiniji, in a moment.
06:22But I want to ask Vikram Singh that because you have raised the issue of enforcing.
06:26You claim that the Supreme Court has made it clear that the executive can enforce this limited ban on crackers
06:33and therefore allow crackers at certain time zones, green crackers as you are calling them.
06:39Vikram Singh, is it possible in a city of the size of the Delhi NCR region,
06:45more than two crore people spread right across the Delhi NCR.
06:51You are telling me that the policemen can go moholla to moholla, market to market to find out whether there are green crackers or not?
07:00You are smiling.
07:00That tells it all.
07:01Azrib sir, Azrib ji and gentlemen, good evening.
07:04Don't underestimate the prowess and the capabilities of the police.
07:06Where there is a will, there is a way.
07:08The police don't have to move from moholla to moholla.
07:11I mean, they have an intelligence system.
07:13They would know where the crackers are hoarded, stored.
07:15Sir, the police could not enforce the total ban all these years.
07:19You are telling me they will enforce a partial ban?
07:21When there was a total ban of the Supreme Court outside my house, late till the night, I would hear crackers.
07:27Rajdeep ji, today we have the advantage of the drone technology, AI and right vision devices.
07:34Things have changed drastically in the last 12 months.
07:37Today, I would feel that the police are equal to the task.
07:39But let me tell you, to be very honest, with all the futuristic technologies, it is a very uphill task, a herculean task.
07:46And I think miles to go before the police can sleep.
07:49And to an honest answer, I would say it is a herculean task.
07:53And to say there will be a cent person ban on the imported crackers and the smuggle crackers that will be living in a fool's paradise.
08:00But yes, police can do a preventive action.
08:03They can ensure that there is faithful compliance of the Honourable Supreme Court's orders.
08:08But on the safer side, I would say perhaps the enforcement would be something around 60% only.
08:1440% is going to be a free for all.
08:16That much you are admitting that the enforcement will be 60%.
08:18But, you know, I want to just, for once and for all, let's look at this religious argument.
08:24Because that was one of the arguments that Delhi government certainly made, both in its election campaign and even now,
08:29that the emotions of people have been satisfied with this.
08:34Ashwini Duba, you want to intervene on that first?
08:37Do you believe that religious sentiment should have a role in courts on matters like this?
08:43Sir, sir, it's not only the religious factor.
08:46You see the 21-page judgments of Honourable Supreme Court, which says that there are multiple factors which have been looked into by the Supreme Court.
08:55Supreme Court referred the COVID at the time of COVID era, saying that at that point of time, there was drop in AQI emissions.
09:04There's a particulate of PM 2.5 to PM 2.10, which was in the air, not because of the air, this firecrackers.
09:12And number one.
09:13Number two, the NEERI we cannot doubt upon.
09:16The study and research of NEERI we cannot research, scientific studies we cannot doubt.
09:20Number three, if there are certain guidelines given by the Supreme Court,
09:25whosoever violate, either you or sir, you, either me or you, whosoever violates will be subject to the law of the land.
09:32And sale of green crackers, as per the formulations and the guidelines given by the Supreme Court,
09:38if violated, it is the complete duty of the executor to look into.
09:42Okay, you made that point.
09:44You made that point.
09:45Okay, you're saying sentiments is only one aspect.
09:50Ronak Sutaria, one of the points that Ashwini Ji makes is important.
09:54That we are focusing almost entirely as if crackers are responsible for Delhi's pollution.
09:58The crackers have not even started already.
10:00AQI levels in Delhi have worsened significantly in the last 48 to 72 hours.
10:06There's the construction issue.
10:07There are transport issues.
10:09There is stubble burning.
10:10It's not just crackers.
10:12So, crackers became the soft target is what many proponents who wanted crackers are saying.
10:18Why deny people enjoyment, which is part of their festivities, for just a couple of days is the argument they make.
10:25Why not focus on a more comprehensive plan to tackle pollution?
10:29Why make crackers the soft target?
10:30A quick response.
10:32Rajdeep, I think the toxicity, I mean, while it is still a green crackers,
10:36the toxicity that comes from firecrackers is significant.
10:41I think it cannot be undermined.
10:44While, you know, arsenic and lead, you know, thankfully are eliminated with this kind of crackers.
10:50But I would not agree that, you know, I believe that crackers, I mean, I'm not going to get into the sentiment part,
10:58the cultural sentiment part of it.
11:00But crackers, I don't believe, are the best way to celebrate a festival of lights.
11:06And even if they wanted to do it, I think instead of the time restrictions, there should have been a space restriction.
11:12There should have been clearly demarcated spaces.
11:14You know, the way any Western city does is that there are demarcated spaces to burst crackers.
11:20And a city like Delhi, NCR could have absolutely, you know, identified areas where, you know, crackers can be burst.
11:28And where then the police systems would have been more effective.
11:32But the citywide access to, you know, and I again don't want to call them green crackers.
11:37But citywide access to lower emissions crackers or 70% emitting polluting crackers, you know, is a better term.
11:45Because there is still 70% pollution that is going to come is an unfortunate decision.
11:50You are saying it's an unfortunate, I'll give a final word to my friend, Vikram Singh.
11:55Vikram Singh, do you believe that the, I ask you one last time, do you really believe the police is equipped to do this?
12:03Or will this only lead to even more corruption?
12:05Someone will take money from these crackerwallas.
12:07It's an easy way, soft corruption as well.
12:10Too much of discretionary powers in the hands of the executive is a recipe for corruption.
12:15Rajdeep, sir, to a professional question, a professional answer, the police are always equal to the task and 7% compliance will be enforced.
12:23Now, a practical answer would be…
12:24You have moved from 60% to 7%.
12:27I hadn't completed.
12:29There's many slip, tricks, the cup and the lip.
12:31I sent a professional answer.
12:33The practical answer would be they will do their best.
12:36And I would be very happy if they're able to execute 60% of the task assigned to them.
12:40Again, the practical hiccups and the practical solutions are very different and poles apart.
12:47Okay, I'm going to leave it there.
12:49These are issues of urgent public health.
12:52There are also issues of cultural and religious sentiments.
12:56I would have expected public health to be kept above all else.
12:59But who is to argue when the Supreme Court gives an order of the kind it is?
13:04We hope at least people will comply with the order.
13:07That, at the very least, is what citizens should do.
13:09I appreciate my guests joining me on the show tonight.
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