The Supreme Court on Wednesday permitted the sale and bursting of green crackers in Delhi and the National Capital Region during Diwali with conditions aimed at balancing traditions with environmental and health concerns.
00:05Will the pollution fight gains now go up in smoke?
00:08Has the Supreme Court chosen religious sentiments over public health?
00:13Vikram Singh, former DGPUP, joins me.
00:16Ronak Sutaria is founder and CEO, Respirer Living Sciences.
00:21And Ashwini Dubey is an advocate, Supreme Court.
00:23Appreciate all of you joining us on the show there.
00:28Ronak Sutaria, to you first.
00:29You might have heard the minister saying that people's sentiments have to be respected.
00:34Even when there was a total ban, people were bursting crackers.
00:37Now, they will be more responsible because at least the court has respected their sentiments.
00:43How do you respond to this argument of religious sentiments being respected
00:47when a partial lift of the ban has been made?
00:52Hi, Rajdeep. Thanks for the session.
00:54And actually, it's an unfortunate verdict.
00:57I think I honestly feel, you know, we've been tracking it since morning, you know, when this came out.
01:03And I think the term green crackers is actually quite misleading.
01:07You know, it is being used regularly to describe this.
01:11And as you yourself, you all showed right now that, you know, the 30% reduction that is being talked about
01:16is essentially the barium nitrate, the arsenic and the lead, you know, which is being eliminated from these so-called green crackers.
01:25And actually, I don't want to use the term green crackers, but essentially just the crackers, you know, which will have...
01:31Are you saying there's nothing, just a minute, for our viewers to understand,
01:37are you saying there's nothing like a green cracker that any cracker is polluting?
01:42I mean, see, essentially, the crackers which have been certified for sale,
01:47they are still going to have about 125 to 130 decibels of sound,
01:52as compared to the 160 decibels, which the regular crackers provide.
01:58You know, normal hearing is at about 40 decibels.
02:0140 to 50 decibels, you know, it starts becoming an issue.
02:05So the noise is one part of it.
02:07The air quality, Delhi actually is going to hit about 1,000 AQI.
02:11You know, currently just this small...
02:13I mean, right now it is at 250 AQI, the city.
02:16In about three days, it's going to hit 1,000 AQI.
02:19Now a 30% reduction in 1,000 AQI is 700 levels.
02:24Is that what we really want to target after, you know, five years of Supreme Court debates?
02:29If we are saying that bringing them down by 300 AQI is the best we can do for our children,
02:36I think it's an unfortunate decision.
02:39Not getting into the sentiments of it, I think...
02:43I heard the advocates, you know, debate,
02:45Advocate Love Virani, who basically represented the Firecracker Traders Association.
02:51And the entire debate was made around the livelihood of the firecracker industry.
02:57I'm given to believe there are about 8 lakh to 10 lakh people who are employed in the Shivakasi region.
03:04Cumulatively, about 15 lakh people's livelihood is at stake, is what this debate was.
03:11At least a good part of this debate was around the livelihood of 15 lakh people.
03:16Now, 15 lakh people's livelihood, a four-day ban, I don't know.
03:21You know, really the debate is about can we replace the manufacturing industry, provide livelihood?
03:26Because bursting of crackers for three days, in my understanding, the folks who are suffering,
03:33the vulnerable population, those who have asthma, you know, the children who are less than five,
03:38it is going to be extremely severe, you know.
03:40And we have to stop using the term green crackers because it's extremely misleading.
03:45You're saying look at it purely from a public health perspective.
03:48That should have been the focus of what the Supreme Court should have said.
03:53I want to at this moment turn to the lawyer on the panel.
03:56Ashwini Dubey, you're an advocate Supreme Court.
03:58I'm told you're a supporter of the idea that people should be allowed to celebrate Diwali with crackers.
04:04Here you're hearing an environmental science activist saying it's very clear public health should be above religious sentiments.
04:13How do you respond?
04:14Now, see, the Supreme Court is not only considered the religious aspect.
04:20Mr. Rajdeep Sardisai, the NERI exercise was undertaken and there was a classification between the crackers,
04:28one green cracker, and that was initiated in 2018.
04:32So NERI, this is one of the topmost institutions of this country,
04:36which has developed compositions of green crackers that can particulate emissions by a minimum of 30 percent
04:42by ranking up to 80 percent while maintaining brightness, safety, and shelf life.
04:47Number two, it is not only the firecrackers which are emitting pollution or responsible for Delhi's air pollution.
04:54If you've seen past Supreme Court is hearing this matter since 2021 and even 2019,
05:02when the Supreme Court was hearing this matter, one committee was formulated with the chief secretaries,
05:06with the pollution control board activists and also certain other persons of Rajasthan, Haryana, Delhi, and Uttar Pradesh.
05:13They were asked for a composite study to submit to the court.
05:18Now, the Supreme Court, there are factors which are responsible for the pollution,
05:22which are stable bugging, reduced wind speed, effect of the winds,
05:26and dip in temperature, lowers in inversion height, vehicular pollution, and construction activities.
05:32It is not only the firecracker which was responsible for Delhi's air pollution.
05:38Now, two aspects.
05:39One, the religious aspect.
05:41Another, the scientific aspect.
05:42So, eco-friendly, eco-friendly, the firecrackers allowed to be burst for two hours by the Supreme Court was undertaken.
05:53And for that, the Supreme Court has asked clearly to the executive to ensure that each and every paragraph
06:00and the directions given by the Supreme Court has to be complied in true letter and spirit.
06:04You have just heard the Environment Minister of Delhi.
06:07He has said that he will undertake.
06:08And if anybody violates, it is the responsibility of the executive if somebody is beyond…
06:13How in a…
06:14You see, that is the question.
06:16You are saying enforce.
06:17It is the duty of the executive to enforce it.
06:20I'll come back to you, Ashwiniji, in a moment.
06:22But I want to ask Vikram Singh that because you have raised the issue of enforcing.
06:26You claim that the Supreme Court has made it clear that the executive can enforce this limited ban on crackers
06:33and therefore allow crackers at certain time zones, green crackers as you are calling them.
06:39Vikram Singh, is it possible in a city of the size of the Delhi NCR region,
06:45more than two crore people spread right across the Delhi NCR.
06:51You are telling me that the policemen can go moholla to moholla, market to market to find out whether there are green crackers or not?
07:00You are smiling.
07:00That tells it all.
07:01Azrib sir, Azrib ji and gentlemen, good evening.
07:04Don't underestimate the prowess and the capabilities of the police.
07:06Where there is a will, there is a way.
07:08The police don't have to move from moholla to moholla.
07:11I mean, they have an intelligence system.
07:13They would know where the crackers are hoarded, stored.
07:15Sir, the police could not enforce the total ban all these years.
07:19You are telling me they will enforce a partial ban?
07:21When there was a total ban of the Supreme Court outside my house, late till the night, I would hear crackers.
07:27Rajdeep ji, today we have the advantage of the drone technology, AI and right vision devices.
07:34Things have changed drastically in the last 12 months.
07:37Today, I would feel that the police are equal to the task.
07:39But let me tell you, to be very honest, with all the futuristic technologies, it is a very uphill task, a herculean task.
07:46And I think miles to go before the police can sleep.
07:49And to an honest answer, I would say it is a herculean task.
07:53And to say there will be a cent person ban on the imported crackers and the smuggle crackers that will be living in a fool's paradise.
08:00But yes, police can do a preventive action.
08:03They can ensure that there is faithful compliance of the Honourable Supreme Court's orders.
08:08But on the safer side, I would say perhaps the enforcement would be something around 60% only.
08:1440% is going to be a free for all.
08:16That much you are admitting that the enforcement will be 60%.
08:18But, you know, I want to just, for once and for all, let's look at this religious argument.
08:24Because that was one of the arguments that Delhi government certainly made, both in its election campaign and even now,
08:29that the emotions of people have been satisfied with this.
08:34Ashwini Duba, you want to intervene on that first?
08:37Do you believe that religious sentiment should have a role in courts on matters like this?
08:43Sir, sir, it's not only the religious factor.
08:46You see the 21-page judgments of Honourable Supreme Court, which says that there are multiple factors which have been looked into by the Supreme Court.
08:55Supreme Court referred the COVID at the time of COVID era, saying that at that point of time, there was drop in AQI emissions.
09:04There's a particulate of PM 2.5 to PM 2.10, which was in the air, not because of the air, this firecrackers.
09:12And number one.
09:13Number two, the NEERI we cannot doubt upon.
09:16The study and research of NEERI we cannot research, scientific studies we cannot doubt.
09:20Number three, if there are certain guidelines given by the Supreme Court,
09:25whosoever violate, either you or sir, you, either me or you, whosoever violates will be subject to the law of the land.
09:32And sale of green crackers, as per the formulations and the guidelines given by the Supreme Court,
09:38if violated, it is the complete duty of the executor to look into.
09:42Okay, you made that point.
09:44You made that point.
09:45Okay, you're saying sentiments is only one aspect.
09:50Ronak Sutaria, one of the points that Ashwini Ji makes is important.
09:54That we are focusing almost entirely as if crackers are responsible for Delhi's pollution.
09:58The crackers have not even started already.
10:00AQI levels in Delhi have worsened significantly in the last 48 to 72 hours.
10:06There's the construction issue.
10:07There are transport issues.
10:09There is stubble burning.
10:10It's not just crackers.
10:12So, crackers became the soft target is what many proponents who wanted crackers are saying.
10:18Why deny people enjoyment, which is part of their festivities, for just a couple of days is the argument they make.
10:25Why not focus on a more comprehensive plan to tackle pollution?
10:29Why make crackers the soft target?
10:30A quick response.
10:32Rajdeep, I think the toxicity, I mean, while it is still a green crackers,
10:36the toxicity that comes from firecrackers is significant.
10:41I think it cannot be undermined.
10:44While, you know, arsenic and lead, you know, thankfully are eliminated with this kind of crackers.
10:50But I would not agree that, you know, I believe that crackers, I mean, I'm not going to get into the sentiment part,
10:58the cultural sentiment part of it.
11:00But crackers, I don't believe, are the best way to celebrate a festival of lights.
11:06And even if they wanted to do it, I think instead of the time restrictions, there should have been a space restriction.
11:12There should have been clearly demarcated spaces.
11:14You know, the way any Western city does is that there are demarcated spaces to burst crackers.
11:20And a city like Delhi, NCR could have absolutely, you know, identified areas where, you know, crackers can be burst.
11:28And where then the police systems would have been more effective.
11:32But the citywide access to, you know, and I again don't want to call them green crackers.
11:37But citywide access to lower emissions crackers or 70% emitting polluting crackers, you know, is a better term.
11:45Because there is still 70% pollution that is going to come is an unfortunate decision.
11:50You are saying it's an unfortunate, I'll give a final word to my friend, Vikram Singh.
11:55Vikram Singh, do you believe that the, I ask you one last time, do you really believe the police is equipped to do this?
12:03Or will this only lead to even more corruption?
12:05Someone will take money from these crackerwallas.
12:07It's an easy way, soft corruption as well.
12:10Too much of discretionary powers in the hands of the executive is a recipe for corruption.
12:15Rajdeep, sir, to a professional question, a professional answer, the police are always equal to the task and 7% compliance will be enforced.
12:23Now, a practical answer would be…
12:24You have moved from 60% to 7%.
12:27I hadn't completed.
12:29There's many slip, tricks, the cup and the lip.
12:31I sent a professional answer.
12:33The practical answer would be they will do their best.
12:36And I would be very happy if they're able to execute 60% of the task assigned to them.
12:40Again, the practical hiccups and the practical solutions are very different and poles apart.
12:47Okay, I'm going to leave it there.
12:49These are issues of urgent public health.
12:52There are also issues of cultural and religious sentiments.
12:56I would have expected public health to be kept above all else.
12:59But who is to argue when the Supreme Court gives an order of the kind it is?
13:04We hope at least people will comply with the order.
13:07That, at the very least, is what citizens should do.
13:09I appreciate my guests joining me on the show tonight.
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