- 2 days ago
The top focus of this episode of 5 Live is on the Supreme Court's decision to permit certified green firecrackers in Delhi-NCR for Diwali.
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00:00Hi there, I'm Sonal Merotra Kapoor, you're watching Five Live here on India Today.
00:11Now, Diwali, not very far from now, but big news coming in on two very important fronts.
00:16One, on crackers. After five years of complete ban, well, it's debatable whether it was really
00:23applicable or not, enforced or not, the Supreme Court has given green light to the green crackers.
00:30What does this mean for Delhi Z, which is already in the poor category?
00:34And story number two, the focus is on EPFO. Now, there are new fundamental shifts that have been made,
00:42some great, some not so great. But what it's led to is a lot of confusion.
00:47So today on the program, we'll get you an expert who will solve and answer all your PF queries.
00:54When can you withdraw? How much can you withdraw even in an extraordinary circumstances?
01:01All of that coming up. First up, let's take you through the top story today.
01:06Now, this Diwali, green crackers, because the Supreme Court has given a green signal
01:16for bursting green crackers in Delhi NCR this Diwali.
01:21But only within the strict time limits, the bursting of firecrackers will be allowed from 6 to 7am
01:27and again from 8 to 10 in the evening between October 19th and 20th.
01:34Now, during the hearing, CGI VR Gavaya emphasised that this is temporary measure aimed to sort of striking
01:41a balance that he said between festive celebrations and environmental protection.
01:46But is it really? Not all are convinced.
01:49The CGI also warned that smuggled crackers, which are illegal and unregulated,
01:55cause far more pollution than certified green ones.
01:59To ensure this, police patrols will monitor firecracker manufacturers and sellers
02:06with strict action against the violators.
02:08Crackers brought in from outside Delhi NCR are banned and sellers found sort of not really following that
02:19and will stand at the risk of losing their license.
02:23If they are found with a stock which is also not licensed, they still stand at losing their license.
02:30Not just that, to keep a close watch on air quality,
02:32the Central Pollution Control Board with monitor pollution levels from October 14th to 21st
02:38and submit a detailed report.
02:41Remember, this ruling comes after months of debate and strict regulations aimed at combating Delhi's really bad air quality
02:50and also at a time when Centra's air pollution panel has already enforced GRAP 1 in NCR.
02:57There you go. If you drove around the city, which is under terrible traffic at the moment,
03:03these are the hazy visuals that you saw on the road.
03:07Now, while the Apex Court's order reflects sort of balanced approach in their view,
03:11both authorities and citizens alike need to work together to actually ensure that fun and joy
03:17does not come at the cost of Delhi's air.
03:20And that's what we are debating today.
03:22But first, let's try and understand in detail what this order has for us.
03:27This is my colleague, Anisha Mathur.
03:30With scathing remarks on how the ban on firecrackers has been flouted over the years
03:35and how crackers have been smuggled into Delhi NCR,
03:39the Supreme Court bench headed by Chief Justice of India, BR Gawai,
03:42has allowed green crackers and green crackers only to be sold and burst in Delhi.
03:48But with serious riders, only sale can be from designated, identified spots by certified vendors
03:56only between 18th, 19th and 20th.
04:00That is, Dhanteras, Chhoti Diwali and Diwali.
04:02Bursting of crackers is restricted to three hours.
04:06That is, 6 to 7 a.m. and 8 to 10 p.m. on 19th and the 20th.
04:11That is, Chhoti Diwali and Diwali.
04:13Because the court taking note of the arguments that have been raised
04:17by the firecracker manufacturers, the industry, as well as the government.
04:21Remember, the court is saying that they are trying to strike a balance
04:24between the right to health, the requirement to maintain AQI levels,
04:31maintain health of young persons or elderly and people in the Delhi NCR,
04:37as well as the right to livelihood of the industry and the questions and the concerns
04:42raised by the government with regard to the celebration of a very, very important Indian festival.
04:49But the court also making it clear that flying squads must maintain a very close eye.
04:55The police and administration are responsible for ensuring that only green crackers are burst
05:00in the national capital and that detailed reports on the AQI level are submitted
05:06by the pollution control boards of all the NCR states.
05:10And before we go back to the studio where my colleague Sonal Mehrotra Kapoor is speaking to our guests,
05:15let's also listen in to what exactly are green crackers, a report by Sonal.
05:20So what are green crackers and can they really help clean up Delhi's toxic air?
05:26So we thought we'll tell you a little bit about them.
05:28Here's our explainer.
05:29Now, green crackers are redesigned firecrackers that emit fewer pollutants than traditional ones.
05:35They contain reduced amounts of harmful chemicals like barium, aluminium,
05:40and also include additives that suppress dust and smoke.
05:43Scientists from NEERI, for example, claim that these crackers can reduce particulate pollution by about 30 to 35%.
05:49While they are considered safer, experts also caution that they still release ultra-fine particles
05:55and sort of gases, meaning they are less harmful, not harmless.
06:00That's the bottom line here.
06:02Let's also now look at how are these green crackers different from your conventional firecrackers.
06:07You've got a couple of comparisons over there.
06:09Okay.
06:09Number one, on chemical composition.
06:11Now, conventional firecrackers contain higher levels of harmful metals.
06:15I already pointed them out.
06:17It's barium, it's potassium, it's nitrate, aluminium, all of them.
06:19Green crackers, on the other hand, use reduced amounts of these metals.
06:24But, so a reduced amount of aluminium content maybe.
06:28But when it comes to pollution, let's look at the next one.
06:30How exactly do they fare?
06:32Conventional crackers release a lot of particulate matter, nitrogen oxide, sulphur dioxide, heavy metals.
06:37Green crackers cut the particulate matter emissions, claimed to be by 30 to 35%, producing much less smoke.
06:46But let's get into the dust and smoke a little bit then.
06:49Regular crackers have no additives to reduce these.
06:52But green crackers claim to include special additives to suppress dust and make the smoke less visible.
07:00What about noise?
07:01Well, noise levels are also a big difference.
07:04Conventional crackers can get very loud.
07:06Obviously, you know, we all know it, often exceeding safe limits as well.
07:11While green crackers are designed to produce lower noise and reduce noise pollution as well.
07:16But burst duration and intensity, that's the critical one.
07:20Traditional crackers have longer, more intense bursts and heavy sparks.
07:25Whereas green crackers often have shorter bursts and controlled flame intensity.
07:28Another point there is that conventional crackers contain materials that produce heavy ash when burned.
07:35Green crackers eliminate these ash producing ingredients, resulting in less litter as well.
07:42Finally, certification.
07:43Conventional crackers don't require any environmental certification.
07:46Green crackers are certified by bodies like NEERI, by PESCO.
07:50And to meet sort of pollution control standards, they claim to be meeting them.
07:56But of course, there are a lot of fakes out in the market as well.
07:59To top it off, green crackers include dust suppressants to further reduce particulate macker.
08:05So, what's the catch here then?
08:07Well, the catch is that scale matters.
08:10Even if each cracker emits less pollution, widespread use could still overwhelm the system, erasing the environmental gains altogether.
08:20Delhi's background pollution, remember, the level basic pollution, even as we speak today, is already quite bad.
08:27Delhi fails during this time of the year when weather patterns trap sort of pollutants close to the ground.
08:33And all of us are already in the poor category if you don't know it already.
08:36Enforcement is a key risk as well.
08:38Without strict checks, non-certified or fake green crackers could easily enter the market.
08:44So, what's the bottom line?
08:46Green crackers may offer a compromise celebration only if it is implemented with caution.
08:53But whether they bring joy or just more smog will really depend on how well the rules are followed and how strictly they are enforced.
09:02Because remember, Delhi is really holding its breath quite literally on this one.
09:09Alright, so those are the details over there.
09:11But let's bring in our panel now.
09:12Joining us is Deemlen Dujha, environmentalist and CEO of Green the Map.
09:16Pavreen Khandari, member of Warrior Moms.
09:18And Sujata Pandey, activist, is with us.
09:21I promised to stay on this issue yesterday.
09:24I'm sticking to my promise.
09:25I've come back to the matter to address it again today.
09:28Of course, there's an update as well.
09:30But I want to give the first word to Sujata Pandey there.
09:33Sujata, you know, I'm very worried.
09:36Extremely worried on how year after year the air quality only seems to be getting worse.
09:43We are this time around, because of the floods, double burning has not even begun.
09:47We are already in the poor category.
09:49What has changed in the past five years that the government had to go and ask the Supreme Court to allow crackers at all?
09:58It only brings down by barely 30%.
10:01That's if it's implemented.
10:03That's if it's the right green cracker.
10:05There are so many riders when it comes to this.
10:08I'm really struggling to understand how this will be implemented.
10:11Okay, so first of all, thank you for calling me today and bringing to all my fellow panelists also.
10:19So first, let's look at this entire firecracker, you know, activism in a selective, hypocritical manner.
10:26You know, in a democracy, when you ignore people's sentiment and faith and only pretend to be an informantialist,
10:31only when a Hindu festival comes, I would call that a selective activism,
10:36not an environmentalism, love or whatever for that matter.
10:40Secondly, you spoke about pollution.
10:42You know, the Delhi crackers cause only, actually, lesser than 7% of the total pollution caused by the industries,
10:49the vehicle pollution, the stubble burning.
10:51So this decision of the Supreme Court is a balance.
10:54And I'll tell you in points how it is a balanced decision and why government went for the cream cracker.
10:59Now, I'll begin with number one.
11:01One is that this decision balances both faith and fundamental rights.
11:04Because it recognized that no matter how much you ban, you know, you put how much ever the policies that you want to people,
11:10you're not going to follow because they deserve to celebrate the festival in this country,
11:17which is the fundamental right under Article 25.
11:19But they also deserve access to a clean air, as you rightly mentioned.
11:23So the court balanced it and said, okay, I'm going to specify a timeline in which you can burn this cracker in the morning from 6 to 7, 6 to 8,
11:32and in the evening 8 to 10, and let's just balance both.
11:36So it did not choose a selective activism or selective outrage.
11:40Can I point out, you said it's only for Hindus.
11:48Do you know, since when the ban is by the Supreme Court, it was all year long.
11:53From 2020 when they intervened, it was all year round.
11:56It was not specifically for Diwali.
11:58It was not specifically for anything else.
12:00They said complete ban all year round.
12:03So nobody is getting after Hinduism.
12:04Okay, so can I just, but don't you hear that these debates do not happen during Eid when there's an animal slaughter on the roads?
12:13I live in Mumbai where my entire society is filled with cut heads of the animals who I would love to protect.
12:19But can I even raise a voice?
12:21No, perhaps because I will be, you know, probably booked under some blasphemy or something like that.
12:26But anyways, I'm not getting to that.
12:28What I'm trying to say is that, you know, there has to be a middle-class zone.
12:31You need to look at that you have to choose science, not sentiment-based, you know, outrage.
12:37Because the court said that, okay, use only NERI certified green crackers, which have by data shown that, okay, 30 to 35 percent of the ignition will be down.
12:48The sound decibels, so 125 percent will be down.
12:51So at least we are beginning with something.
12:53You saw last time what happened.
12:54There was a complete ban.
12:56And people went on and they said, okay, this is a repression.
12:59This is not something that, you know, you are regulatory.
13:03Because people went out and put it on the social media.
13:05So clearly they were not afraid of burning crackers.
13:08They were ready to go to jail also.
13:09So what does the government do?
13:11The government has to find a middle path.
13:14And that is why government went for the green crackers.
13:16Because I know it is not 100 percent solution, Sonal.
13:19But then 100 percent solution is not even like, why are we even living in Delhi?
13:24You know, we should go to a forest and start living in the kind of how, you know, the ancient civilizations used to live.
13:30We should stop traveling by cars.
13:32We should stop using ACs.
13:33We should stop using digital media.
13:35We should stop using AI, which is going to be a bigger threat for all our water resource because of the lack of data.
13:41Ma'am, are you telling me countries that have all of it, all face air pollution problems?
13:47Are you telling me countries that use AI have digital solutions, are progressive, they all have air pollution problems?
13:53Let's be very clear, ma'am.
13:55Let's not, this is not, there is no binary answer here.
13:58Come on, let me give it, let me give Vimalindu Jha a chance.
14:03You've spoken, I've heard you.
14:06No, you have not let me finish.
14:06Okay, take 30 more seconds.
14:08Okay, take 30 more seconds, fine.
14:09So, I am saying, I am saying, Sonal, we didn't have a, didn't have any, but either we could do a total ban or we could give total freedom.
14:16The court choose a middle path.
14:18It sets out to, at least, you know, determine to set a model for responsible celebration of, you know, festivals.
14:25It said that, okay, with technology, with advancements, with current situations, you can choose and choose to celebrate responsibility.
14:33This is what exactly was the intention of the government and the intention of the court.
14:37You tell me, if you had any alternate solutions, please, and I'll be all ears to hear that.
14:42Vimalindu Jha has an alternate solution.
14:44I want to give him a word to come in and speak about this.
14:47Mr. Jha, you heard Mr. Pandey.
14:49I think the point, a lot of stuff that she said could be debated, but I think what she's right about is the fact that even when there was a complete ban, there was massive flouting of rules.
14:59So, when that's the case, it gives no confidence to the government to say that, and the court has said what?
15:04The court has said smuggling was happening.
15:06Now, let's put a process in place.
15:08Isn't that something that's welcome?
15:10So, Sonal, based on that logic, as in just because people violate the traffic rules, there should not be any rules at all.
15:19And then a classic case of water voucher is what we've heard from Ms. Pandey.
15:23I think the first thing that she said that, you know, people like us or people or children who were the main petitioners, by the way, five years ago,
15:29when they said that my right to breathe is more important than right to celebration,
15:34as in just saying that, oh, well, these are all pretentious, these are all people with a gender.
15:38And she also said, oh, well, why do we not speak otherwise?
15:41Madam, we speak through the year.
15:43For you, it could be a matter of sentiment.
15:45For me, my sentiment is attached to the lung size and the health of the child.
15:49For me, that is more important.
15:51My Ram, my Ram survives in every child and their well-being and not just in person or firecrackers.
15:59Let him speak. I'll come back to you.
16:01This is not the kind of debate where we have to shout.
16:03We have enough time. We'll hear everybody.
16:06So, deep breaths. Yeah, deep breaths. And let's hear.
16:08I'll come to everybody. Don't worry. Don't worry.
16:10Yes, Mr. Jha.
16:11Yeah, yeah.
16:11Deep breaths if you can afford to take some.
16:15Yeah, deep breath that we're talking about.
16:16And that's the breath away that the Supreme Court has taken in really,
16:20in idea of justice, there's nothing called balancing act.
16:24You know, the Supreme Court is not supposed to do balancing between sentiment and faith and health.
16:29It's very clear that we are in 2025 where science should govern our policy.
16:34And last five years and 10 years, I always say that, you know, a lot of air quality governance
16:40or environmental governance of our country is done by the courts of our country, which should not happen
16:45because one day there will be a chance when the courts of our country, when they get so deep into governance,
16:50it can be damaging.
16:51And today, exactly what we've seen, it's very, very regressive a decision taken by the Supreme Court
16:56where it's actually forwarded the agenda of one kind and completely ignored the health, the public health.
17:05By the way, we're not even talking about environment.
17:08We're only talking about public health.
17:10At Delhi's baseline, and imagine such is the irony that 240 Delhi's air quality is already poor.
17:18And that day, the Supreme Court says, please, you are allowed to make it more poor
17:21because I don't want to hurt your sentiments.
17:24And my sentiments, tell me one thing in my family, my ailing child, that sentiment
17:30or my idea of a full jhari and more toxins of a greenwashed firecracker.
17:35So somewhere, you know, in love for this entire fundamentalism and fanatism
17:40and not even understanding what is faith and what is humanity,
17:44people really, you know, say things that they should not be.
17:47At the end of the day, interest of people.
17:50Yeah, faith versus humanity, it is about science versus sentiment.
17:57I think that's where the debate is really going over here.
17:59But I want to give Bhavreen also a chance to sort of come in.
18:02Bhavreen, you are part of the mums and the group that actually petitioned in the Supreme Court.
18:07Now, the question is valid.
18:08You know, when I was a child, I'm sure when you were growing up as well,
18:12we looked forward to Diwali.
18:13I totally understand when we say that.
18:16Today, the fact is, I can't give my child the same experience.
18:20But I have to choose between my child's experience that she gets
18:25versus the health that she will live with for the rest of her life.
18:28Now, are you taunt sometimes?
18:31And what is your reaction to the Supreme Court order
18:34where they're saying that they've struck a balance?
18:39Yes, Sonal, I hear you.
18:40I feel you.
18:41And these are the kind of messages,
18:43hundreds and thousands of messages.
18:45I'm sorry, I don't agree at all with my co-panelist here.
18:49And of course, she is, you know, more on the front of rather.
18:53I would say that she's absolutely un-pragmatic.
18:56And I will just go on terms of legally of how the Supreme Court has.
19:01See, it's not now.
19:02It's not about crackers.
19:03It's not about clean air.
19:06It's not about forests.
19:07It's the Supreme Court has repeatedly held
19:09that the right to clean air is part of the right to life
19:13under Article 21 of the Constitution.
19:17And now when they themselves,
19:19when they bring in green crackers,
19:21which are known,
19:22which have now been proven to emit particulate matter
19:27or the gases or metals, whatever,
19:29they are themselves compromising that right.
19:31So the court cannot simultaneously now uphold
19:34a constitutional right for health.
19:37And also, you know...
19:40So will you be challenging this order then?
19:44Well, these orders are not, you know,
19:46there's a huge amount of technical problems with it.
19:49Now, I want to add something here,
19:51which we've been saying for a while rather,
19:54because, you know, we've all lost so much faith,
19:57you know, that the trust in, you know,
20:00justice and the judiciary is...
20:02It's lost because it's not about one month
20:06or two months or years.
20:07For years, in 2015, you know,
20:10this petition when the toddlers filed this petition
20:13with a very emotional petition
20:15that came up with on right to breathe.
20:17And all our children, you know, who are suffering
20:19and, you know, between all of us,
20:21I think we were all, you know,
20:23had some stories, something to say there.
20:26So it's a personal.
20:27Whenever you say mothers or citizens,
20:30it's a personal thing.
20:31There's no thing when a mother has to, you know,
20:34rush out to a hospital
20:35or a parent has to be...
20:37Your senior parents have to be taken,
20:40you know, somewhere.
20:41So it's to a hospital in the night.
20:42The data is clear.
20:44There are pediatric wards
20:46which are absolutely full on Diwali nights.
20:49And here, like you said,
20:51thanks so much for correcting,
20:52you know, the panelists,
20:53that it's not even about Diwali.
20:55It's about crackers.
20:57It's about throughout the year.
20:58It's about celebrations.
20:59It's about processions.
21:00It's about weddings.
21:02It's about cricket matches.
21:03So what about the ban?
21:04The last months were all banned until today.
21:07But we've heard crackers.
21:09Every alternate day, single day,
21:11we have complained about it
21:12and nothing has happened.
21:13So that itself shows...
21:14Actually, as a citizen,
21:16it gives you very little confidence
21:17that even this will be applicable.
21:20This will be enforced.
21:21Absolutely.
21:22And I've been that one citizen
21:24who every time the cracker went up,
21:26I was calling to say,
21:27you know, this is the ban.
21:28Please ensure it doesn't happen.
21:29But it's never enforced.
21:31I want to come to Sujata Pante,
21:33but before that,
21:34we are getting a reaction from Parvesh Verma.
21:37Let's listen into what the Delhi government
21:39had to say,
21:40who actually petitioned to the court
21:41to allow the green crackers to come in.
21:43Let's listen.
21:44Let's listen.
22:13Let's listen.
22:14Let's listen.
22:15Let's listen.
22:16Let's listen.
22:18Let's listen.
22:19Let's listen.
22:20Let's listen.
22:21Let's listen.
22:22Let's listen.
22:23Let's listen.
22:24Let's listen.
22:25Let's listen.
22:26Let's listen.
22:27Let's listen.
22:28Let's listen.
22:29Let's listen.
22:30Let's listen.
22:31Let's listen.
22:32Let's listen.
22:33Let's listen.
22:34Let's listen.
22:35Let's listen.
22:36Let's listen.
22:37Let's listen.
22:38Let's listen.
22:39Let's listen.
22:40Let's listen.
22:41Let's listen.
22:42Let's listen.
22:43Let's listen.
22:44Let's listen.
22:45Let's listen.
22:46Let's listen.
22:47Let's listen.
22:48Let's listen.
22:49Let's listen.
22:50Let's listen.
22:51Let's listen.
22:52Let's listen.
22:53Let's listen.
22:54Let's listen.
22:55I think just a quick correction there.
22:56I don't think Mr. Sirsak got that right.
22:58I think it's 6 to 7 in the morning and 8 to 10 in the evening.
23:02Just to get those timings right.
23:04Which brings me to who's bursting crackers at 6 o'clock in the morning.
23:07I want to know.
23:08Sujata ji, are you bursting crackers at 6 o'clock in the morning?
23:11I've been very, I've been wondering where that came from.
23:14So that's why I said it's a balanced decision.
23:16The court knew that a middle path had to be found.
23:20And that's why it chose a timing, which is perhaps, you know, morning,
23:24who would burst the practice?
23:25So probably that you can absolutely think that people would not,
23:28are not going to burst the practice.
23:30The only time left is 8 to 10, which in my opinion,
23:33a lot of people will be busy in doing poojas and things like that,
23:36you know, specifically for Diwali.
23:38So you, the window gets, you know, decreased or even limited to one hour or so.
23:43So that is why I said it is a selective activism,
23:45because somebody mentioned here and they called me hypocritical,
23:49but let me just expose their selective activism.
23:52I mean, about the lungs of the children.
23:54You know, I am a mother too.
23:55And I know that the lungs disease in children by data
23:58is not caused by the firecrackers alone.
24:01The 51% of it is caused by the factories, the pollutant that,
24:06that goes on in the air 365 days in a year 24 by 7.
24:11And I do not hear one inter-environmentalist coming out and say,
24:15let's shut these factories.
24:17You know, they are the ones who drive in,
24:19drive in, you know, diesel cars and, you know, live in the AC car.
24:22And they'll say, oh, pollution is going on.
24:24First start living.
24:25They are the ones who will send their children in the school bus,
24:27you know, which run on the diesel.
24:29And they'll say, oh, my God, my school children are going to be affected.
24:32They are the ones who will send the school children,
24:34the schools which are full of ACs, the classroom full of ACs,
24:38the children are not even exposed to the sunlight.
24:40And then they'll say, oh, my God, I'm worried about my children's cells.
24:42So this is why I said it is a double standard.
24:44Now, you know, this is why I said that, why is the balance?
24:47Let me come back to the point and not just pinpoint.
24:50You know, why I feel that this decision is going to be a starter.
24:56You know, nothing is unperfection tonal.
24:59You know, we have to find a point where we can start.
25:02The court choose the right root problem.
25:05It questioned and made people accountable for enforcing the law.
25:10Last time these bans were there.
25:12I, you know, I come from Delhi, and I see people, like, going all over the crackers.
25:17They were not even afraid what will happen to them.
25:19So the court made sure that the responsible personnel,
25:23the police, the administration, you know, make sure that there are no smuggled crackers.
25:28Enter Delhi NCR.
25:29There are no online sale of the crackers.
25:32And, you know, all of that.
25:33And there's just, you know, why are we even like, we have to start.
25:37Okay, let me get a response to that.
25:39Let me, yeah.
25:40Sujata ji, let me get a response to that.
25:43So Bhavreen, which car are your kids using now?
25:48And are they constantly in AC?
25:50I first want to get that.
25:51No.
25:52First of all, the kids are, you know, studying now.
25:55They're in college.
25:56We are not going to get into this personal.
25:58What is it that the, what is it that you do?
26:02I'm sorry.
26:03You started it.
26:04You started it.
26:05Sujata ji, you started it.
26:07You started it.
26:08Sujata, wait for one second.
26:10Let Bhavreen, no personal remarks.
26:12Let's just, let's be a little civil about this.
26:14Okay, time out.
26:15Okay, time out, time out.
26:16Let's cut the mics.
26:17Let me go to Pimlen.
26:18If this is going to happen, we'll cut the mics.
26:19I haven't seen you ever in this space.
26:21I have never seen this lady before this ever saying or doing anything.
26:25She must be doing some plantation drive, maybe with the government somewhere, some photo ops.
26:30I'm sorry, because you are speaking that and bringing us to speak to you.
26:35People are working on clean air.
26:38Clean air means vehicle emissions.
26:41It means compliances.
26:42It means waste to energy.
26:45It means waste management.
26:47It means industrial.
26:48It means everything.
26:49Everything for us.
26:50Crackers means crackers.
26:51It doesn't mean you're so torn apart between your festivities and your thing that I, yes, I as a mother, it's a shame if I say that I want my children to breathe this toxicity.
27:04You know, to balance, I want to balance it with, you know, enjoy all this enjoyment, whatever terms I mean, non-surgical terms on the public.
27:16One second.
27:17Sujata ji, you are, one second.
27:19So can I just speak one thing which I have been witness of, not going by personal account.
27:24I've seen Bhavreen and her kids at these right to breathe protests year after year.
27:30She's been at it for quite some time and she actually does walk the talk.
27:34That is just as an independent person that I'm telling you, I've reported on these issues and I've seen her on the streets continuously, like I've seen Vimbleindu Jha as well.
27:41Mr. Jha, like I'm saying, it's not an easy decision.
27:45You know, this conversation is not just between what Sujata believes versus what Bhavreen believes.
27:50When I go back home, say in a place like UP, where awareness is not that much perhaps on the issue of pollution, though they're waking up to it now.
27:59Even with the older generation, I have this.
28:02They'll say, hey, let's go to one child.
28:04You know, I have to also educate my elders to say that, you know, it's said to be auspicious, but look what it's doing.
28:10We have the data and evidence now. Let's not.
28:12But I understand that this is not a comfortable conversation, not one which goes down even when people don't want to burst crackers.
28:19A lot of times they don't have a say in the house.
28:22Yeah. So, you know, what we did 30 years ago, 40 years ago or 20 years ago, we cannot be doing it today.
28:29As I said earlier that, you know, you could immerse flowers in Ganga or in Yamuna because these rivers were actually clean.
28:34Today, you cannot even throw, you know, organic flowers into it because it doesn't even have oxygen to take care of that organic material in that sense.
28:41So if Delhi's air quality was 20, 25, you know, and then it was all Changa through the year, it was OK to burst firecrackers twice, two hours or five hours or six hours in that sense.
28:54Nobody is talking about festivity or love or affection or God or faith or everything else.
29:00We're only talking about that right now when you have that data staring at you with some, you know, the reports that we have of the medical fraternity that talks about the kind of mortality and morbidity impact that overall air pollution has.
29:14And overall, by the way, exactly, Ms. Pandey should know that, you know, I perhaps appear on your channel through the year on various environmental issues.
29:23And we are not in that sense. And anyway, let's not even get there.
29:30So we definitely need to work on all these issues, be it transport, be it stubble burning, be it construction, demolition, dust, waste and so on and so forth.
29:39But we need to acknowledge that the kind of spike that the episodic source and event called Diwali Pataka that does, that might be an overall 7% average.
29:51It's about, you know, saying that one liter of poison you're just having it in one go.
30:03So this is concentration. We're talking about 20 to 30 times worse air quality that happens in those two hours.
30:09And why should the data be, you know, the fact that our ICU is run out of hospitals, the fact that you're not able to breathe.
30:15Aren't your eyes burning already at 210? You know, and is the situation not going to get worse?
30:23So we need to really think about that as in our children will be happier and more faithful and full with sentiments and live longer.
30:31If we, instead of firecrackers, we give them a deet, a diya, a fool, a mithai, a neya kapda.
30:38So we all, this is not a competition of, yeah, so we should all understand and that, you know, where Supreme Court fell in this trap.
30:50And I feel so unfortunate and disgusted by Supreme Court trying to say that they're trying to balance it.
30:56As in, you know, I don't have any fear of contempt.
30:58Actually, a lot of balance has not been about faith. In the order, in the order, Mr. Jha, they've actually said that they're balancing out industry demands.
31:07So they're saying in the order that they've balanced industry demands with what the environmentalists have to say.
31:13They've actually nowhere mentioned religion.
31:15Exactly. So, you know, yesterday also when we were having a discussion, it was a so-called balance between industry slash livelihood slash sentiment slash environment.
31:29But in all of this, where is health, the impact of all of this?
31:33It doesn't talk about what is this so-called industry that we're talking about, which is completely powered, 80 percent powered by child labor.
31:39Is the Supreme Court not aware of it? Aren't there enough SLPs already in that regard?
31:43So that's where I somehow feel that for Supreme Court to, you know, it's very degenerative in these times when we are going through climate change crisis, when we are going through air pollution crisis, which is perennial.
31:57Therefore, we expect our authorities and people in power and more so in the Supreme Court to really go strong and regulate this.
32:05And regulation does not mean making every side happy by thoda sa to karne do pollution.
32:10But what is this thoda sa karne do pollution? And Supreme Court has also erred when it came to the vehicular pollution bit.
32:16So today's topic is not that. So we all need to be actually, Miss Pandey should also fight for the lungs like everyone is.
32:24And she should be on the side of her children if she says that she's a mother.
32:28Let's not isolate Miss Pandey. I just want to say that she's not the only person saying this.
32:30She's not the only person saying this. She's representing a lot of people who feel like her.
32:34Absolutely. I don't have anything against Miss Pandey here.
32:36Okay, so let's not get personal against Miss Pandey as well.
32:38I'm not, I'm not. I'm sorry. Yeah, yeah.
32:40Okay, I'm sorry. I just want to get personal.
32:42Mr. Jaa, I want you to very quickly then this one.
32:46I want to understand what's your projection for the months ahead.
32:50Sure.
32:51My understanding was because of the flooding that took place in large parts of Punjab, because of the, you know, the mechanisms and the steps that have been taken both in Punjab and Haryana.
33:04Now to ensure that crop burning doesn't happen, stubble burning doesn't happen, things have improved over the years.
33:10Do you have an understanding of which way this will go this winter, 2025 winter?
33:16So, Sonal, as much as, you know, it will make some people happy that we actually gave a lot of disproportionate attention to stubble burning.
33:24Again, stubble burning is a 50, 60 day phenomenon.
33:27There is air is bad 365 days or at least 350 days in that sense.
33:33This year, of course, we have had a long monsoon and therefore that count perhaps would be slightly better in the, in, in, in favor of our lungs in that sense.
33:42In the coming months with the winter, we haven't seen the winter arrive as yet.
33:46The wind speed is, you know, is getting bad in the sense, in terms of reducing.
33:50And with that, as there's no projection, hope, our investment of money, the amount of money that we're going to burn on firecrackers,
33:57which we are, we invest in actual projection and understanding and, and really giving that know-how, that infrastructure support to farmers.
34:05Okay, let me fix that line with Mr. Jha there. Sujata wants to come in.
34:12Sujata ji, I want to understand this.
34:15You see, at the end of the day, the issue of firecrackers, the issue of stubble burning, the issue of winters being very bad, all of that is the top up.
34:24The baseline pollution in Delhi is so poor. And that's got to do with our vehicles. That's got to do with the way our industries operate as well.
34:34Anybody will tell you that. We've run year after year that there were no good air days in Delhi.
34:39And, you know, even before the winter set, and we were already 150, 200, we are about touching 300 now.
34:46This is without firecrackers. This is without stubble burning.
34:49So wouldn't you say that there needs to be, something needs to be done at a calculated level now that Delhi is with BJP,
34:58now that Centre is with BJP, now there needs to be the surrounding areas, the neighboring states are also BJP.
35:05Now, all of that is under your belt, so to say. Isn't now the time when something concrete needs to be done,
35:14and air quality needs to be made a priority? Wouldn't you say that today?
35:20No, Sonal, of course, nobody, you know, disagrees to a point that we, as a country, we need to work on all this,
35:27and these are also SDG goals, which our country is committed to.
35:31But, you know, you just confirmed, and the other panelists were also confirmed that firecracker is not the only solution.
35:37Because he said, see, you also confirmed that Delhi has this air pollution problem 365 days a year.
35:43That means something else is a bigger issue, which probably because of, you know, 100 other reasons is not coming into limelight.
35:49That can be your industrial pollution, because that means around 51% of the pollutants, like I said, 365 days, 24 hours, and, you know, all the time.
36:00But nobody talks about it because, hey, because, you know, human development and modernization and economic development has a price.
36:06So, you know, we need to be focused. We need to find a solution with everything in view, because we have to make sure that the employments don't get affected.
36:15We have to make sure that the people get their livelihood. We also have to make sure that we do industrial progress, but not at the cost of the human life.
36:23That is 101%. And that is why I said the court tried to make something, you know, someone address the root problem, not just talk about, just one second, I'm getting a call, just one second, sorry.
36:36So the court tried to hold the ones who are accountable and address that, okay, now let's do this experiment. Let's see how much and how much is the reduced, you know, air pollution, because the court has asked for reports from all the control boards, the pollution control boards, that once this is over, the court will review that has the pollution gone down compared to the last year, same time, you know, period.
37:04And it will be compared. And also it has said very specifically that this is a temporary decision. This is not a long term, you know, you know, goes for all.
37:12So, in my opinion, whether environmentalist or not, with a person of faith or not, you know, we have to look at with a view that what is the middle path, because we're living not in an ideal world situation.
37:27Nothing is ideal, you know, not our lungs, neither the air, nor the water, nor the food we are drinking.
37:33I hear you, I hear you.
37:35Not the plastic boxes, everything.
37:36Right, right, right.
37:37You know, there are, so we have to find a middle path, I mean, here the court looks at it.
37:40Yes, I hear you ma'am. Yes, I hear you. I just want to give the last word to Bhavreen, since she represents a lot of worried mothers.
37:47I want to know what's your plan of action. What are you going to do this Diwali?
37:51I have heard of this concept called pollucation that has come in, where mothers, including doctors, I know of doctors personally, who have prescribed to friends to say that, listen, winter is here, Delhi is no place for your kids.
38:03Pack them up, go somewhere, because this is not a problem that can be solved.
38:07What hurts me is the fact that when it comes to air quality, water quality, et cetera, there is no solution that can be done by you and me.
38:16This is not a private solution department. This is a public solution that is required.
38:21So right now, with green crackers allowed, what is it that you're going to do?
38:31Sorry, I just lost this. I don't know if you can hear me. I lost the sound.
38:35I can't hear you. Go ahead. Go ahead. I was just asking, what is it that you will do and you are urging mothers to do?
38:41Yes, we are at it. I don't remember for decades, more than a decade now, that some of the mothers who are on Diwali at home and celebrating this,
38:53we are all putting together data, complaints, how to make things better.
38:58We are like the eyes and ears of the authorities. So we are working on the ground to make things better.
39:03But unfortunately, it just doesn't work. It's too huge. The whole damage is done.
39:09And we see, you know, next morning is an apocalypse. And it's not that it lasts for hours. It starts affecting.
39:16So now you see, as of today, we are in graph one post Diwali.
39:20We will immediately be, you know, jumping into the next level of pollution.
39:25But yes, you know, we will continue to try. We are mothers. We cannot give up.
39:31We cannot give up on our children, their health. Every third child in the city has damaged lungs.
39:38We are speaking in the most polluted city of the world. I don't think there are scopes for any mistakes.
39:44No pollution is less and no pollution is more. Everything matters. Everything matters.
39:50And we are not in a state to take decisions like this. And it's very disheartening. I will repeat that.
39:56The court order has been super disheartening for us.
40:00Just one thing. Babrin, it's not just mothers. It's also fathers who are worried for their children.
40:07That's a good point.
40:08Oh yeah, sorry. That's symbolic, Vimlandu. I know. Who can be better meaning than you, Vimlandu?
40:13Yes.
40:14On that lovely note, and to have all the three panelists smiling and not fighting, it's Diwali, guys.
40:22Like, come on, let's lighten up the mood a little bit.
40:24Thank you so much, all three of you for joining us and participating in this very, very important discussion.
40:29Clearly something that's been running on all our minds as well.
40:37Meanwhile, the Delhi Environment Minister, Majinder Singh Sirsa, has welcomed the Supreme Court order, allowing use of green crackers this festive season.
40:45And I said that if the weather conditions are favourable, the government will conduct cloud seeding as well.
40:51What is cloud seeding? It's effectively or a simpler way to understand that is artificial rain in the coming two to three days.
40:57This comes a day after the air pollution body actually enforced curbs under the phase one of graded response action plan as the air quality index crossed 200 mark in the national capital.
41:09This is a good sense of finishing pattern as we have on for our pilots' as a weight loss is achieved by the river and the air quality as the air quality changes.
41:23because there is a retrofitment
41:29and there will be a spray
41:33which will be blasted
41:38which will be spray
41:41which will be trial
41:44which will be trial
41:46which will be trial
41:49All right, my colleague Stiha now joins us for more on this.
42:08Stiha, what kind of evidence do we have in trying to understand whether or not cloud seeding actually works?
42:15And especially to come right in this time of the year when pollution baseline levels are already high, only to make matters worse.
42:22Now crackers have also been allowed.
42:24That's right.
42:25So there's very little evidence that it is extremely effective in bringing down pollution.
42:29For a couple of hours, it can clear the air just like the way rain does, natural rain does.
42:34Also, the situation really for cloud seeding has to be such that the cloud has to have enough moisture in it for the required seeding.
42:41So that's a challenge as well.
42:42It does not remove the root cause of pollution.
42:45In that sense, I would say it's a top gap sort of an arrangement, a band-aid sort of a solution to a problem which requires a long-term strategy, as you know, Sonal.
42:54At the end of the day, cloud seeding would, of course, settle the dust particles for a few hours.
42:59But it cannot effectively deal with the source of pollution.
43:02And the pollution will be right back.
43:04Also, like I said, it can be, in fact, settling the dust and the PM2.5 and PM10 particles for just a few hours.
43:12So in that sense, an extremely expensive procedure, really a banded solution to what requires a detailed surgery and a detailed treatment is what I would say.
43:21Evidence, of course, gives enough indication that it is used in not just in Delhi, but it can be used in many other countries like China and Beijing.
43:30It can be used, of course, to deal with pollution, but it is only to give very temporary relief.
43:35By and large, we are bracing for pollution months.
43:38And we've already seen the AQI level worsen to 157.
43:43This today by itself is not a very clean air day in that sense.
43:47But like I said, it isn't a long-term solution.
43:50All right, thank you so much, Sneha, there, putting it out.
43:53Clearly, the band-aid solution doesn't provide long-term answers over there.
43:58All right, let's move on to the other big story that has got everybody talking.
44:02The Employees Provident Fund Organization, the EPFO, has announced a major change.
44:07Members can now withdraw up to 100% of their provident fund balance, including both employee and employer contribution.
44:14Now, this is a significant relief for many who depend on these savings during tough times.
44:19But it's not as straightforward as it seems.
44:22And there's a lot of confusion online around the new rules, many unanswered questions as well.
44:28So today on the program, we put out those big questions so you can sort of really understand what this means for you.
44:36So on your screen right now, take a quick, you know, screenshot of those changes as well.
44:42What used to be the case earlier versus what it is now.
44:45But some of the big questions we are asking, let's take them straight to our guest.
44:49Joining us now is Shithij Mahajan, CEO and managing partner at Complete Circle Capital.
44:54Hi, Shithij. Thank you so much for giving us your time.
44:56So much confusion over what really is going on.
44:58But I think largely the questions are around whether or not in case of loss of job,
45:07one can withdraw the full money or does one have to wait?
45:10That's my first question really to you.
45:13In case of employment, can I immediately, unemployment, can I immediately withdraw all of my money?
45:20Well, hi. Thank you for having me here.
45:22And obviously, the new regulations are very, very pro-employees only.
45:26In case of unemployment, obviously, there's a window of 12 months that you can withdraw the entire funds.
45:31But you can withdraw any fund immediately after, you know, you are out of job.
45:38And there are ways and means through which you can withdraw.
45:40There are various categories.
45:42They have mentioned that.
45:44And those categories you can employ.
45:45And it has become much more easy.
45:47You can do it online also.
45:48So, I think the new rules actually make it much easy that you can withdraw the fund vis-a-vis what was required earlier.
45:56Okay.
45:56So, you're saying I can't, in case of unemployment, I cannot withdraw the full amount,
46:00but I can immediately now withdraw part of the amount.
46:03How much is that?
46:04Up to 75%.
46:0625% is the minimum.
46:07Up to 75%.
46:08The other big question is on pension.
46:10Could you sort that out as well?
46:12In case of pensioners, there's a time window until when they cannot withdraw their money?
46:17So, it's up to 12 months they can't withdraw, but after that they can do that.
46:22For pensioners, it's...
46:23Up to 12 months?
46:24Yeah.
46:24Yes.
46:26Uniform rules is up to 12 months.
46:27But yes, let's say if someone is not having a pension, but EPFO is like employee contribution
46:33and a company contribution, both side.
46:35For this is for private job employees also.
46:37But if you're out of job and there's a purpose which is lying,
46:39So, now it's much more easy that you can take out the money.
46:44And there are reasons, there are online things through which you can withdraw
46:47without submitting much of the paperwork also.
46:50Okay.
46:51Another question that's been on the line very quickly, if you could answer that as well.
46:54Can a nominee or a kin withdraw PF after an employee's sudden death?
46:59And the other one is really of these extraordinary special circumstances segment that has been added.
47:04What exactly are these special circumstances under which amount can be withdrawn?
47:09Okay.
47:10So, the procedure of nominee or kin is that, you know, if the will is there, will will supersede everything.
47:17Let's say if anyone who's in pension and is not present now, then will will supersede everything.
47:23If not, will is not there, then let's say whoever is there in the family, let's say the wife is there and two kids are there,
47:30then they have to, it has to be divided among three of them.
47:33So, there's a process and there are various paperwork which they have to go through.
47:37But yes, that's their right to take that money.
47:40And what are those extraordinary circumstances?
47:43Extraordinary, okay, basic, just to explain.
47:46Two circumstances they've spoken about, one is education and marriage, where they've given a lot of windows now.
47:52Ten for education, five for marriage.
47:54But extraordinary is like some emergency came, some medical emergency is there.
47:58Some losses are there in the family.
48:00Some, some, let's say, loss of family is there.
48:07Some injuries are there.
48:08Excellence are there.
48:09So, all these are there.
48:10And they have made it very simple now.
48:12I think the blueprint is about to come out.
48:14And they'll make it very simple that you don't have to go get into a paperwork, do it online, submit proofs, and it's going to be done.
48:20Got it.
48:21All right.
48:21Thank you so much.
48:2213 categories now cut down to just three.
48:24I think that's a big one.
48:25But a lot of confusion.
48:26So, do check with your office, HR, accounting, and also your CA for more details on it.
48:31Thank you so much for joining.
48:34All right.
48:35With that, it's a wrap on Five Live.
48:36We'll see you again tomorrow.
48:37Bye-bye.
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