- 11 months ago
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This week, Kuala Lumpur hosted the first Southeast Asia Red Cross Red Crescent Humanitarian Forum. A timely gathering, as in today’s conflicts, even the most basic protections for civilians are ignored with appalling impunity. Can international law still protect humanity in war? Or are the rules being eroded beyond repair? On this episode of #ConsiderThis Melisa Idris speaks with Régis Savioz, Regional Director for Asia and the Pacific for the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC).
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00:00Hello and good evening. I'm Melissa Idris. Welcome to Consider This. This is the show
00:25where we want you to consider and then reconsider what you know of the news of the day.
00:29This week, Kuala Lumpur hosted the first Southeast Asia Red Cross Red Crescent Humanitarian Forum.
00:37It's a timely gathering as in today's conflicts, even the most basic protections for civilians are ignored with appalling impunity.
00:48But can international law still protect humanity in war or are the rules being eroded beyond repair?
00:54Well, joining me on the show to discuss this further, I have Reggie Savioz, who is the Regional Director for Asia and the Pacific
01:03for the International Committee of the Red Cross, also known as the ICRC.
01:08Reggie, thank you so much for being on the show with me today.
01:11So let's start with the big picture, if we may. Talk to us a little bit about the work that the ICRC does here in Asia Pacific.
01:19And I'm just wondering, based on the work that you do, how then would you describe the state of humanitarian needs and challenges in this region?
01:29Thank you very much, Melissa, for the invitation to be with you.
01:33And if you allow me, I would start first probably by explaining you who we are as the International Committee of the Red Cross.
01:40So the International Committee of the Red Cross has this very specific mandate to protect and assist people in situations of armed conflict.
01:49I think it's very important to mention it as there is this understanding.
01:54So if I simplify for the audience today, I think every time you will have a situation of conflict, you will probably see ICRC delegates around.
02:03But we also have this very specific mandate to promote greater compliance for international humanitarian law.
02:13We are often called the guardian of international humanitarian law amongst the humanitarian sector.
02:20And of course, we are part of the movement of the Red Cross and Red Christian family.
02:25And in that regard, I think one of the first points I want to make, because we had today, we had this humanitarian forum,
02:31but we also had this Southeast Asia National Society Leaders Meeting.
02:36And I think you are a region with very strong national societies.
02:40And of course, they are a very strong vector and a strong voice, not only in the response to humanitarian needs,
02:46but also in the promotion of international humanitarian law and in the promotion of the humanitarian principles of neutrality,
02:54neutrality, impartiality, and independence, which are guiding the work of the Red Cross and Red Christian movement.
03:01Is that said?
03:02Yes.
03:02That said, sorry.
03:03Yeah, please finish.
03:03That said, I mean, if I look now, what, how do these activities of the International Committee of the Red Cross translate
03:11in the different situations of armed conflict in the region,
03:15I will start by one of the activities, which we are quite known for, it's the visit to prisoners.
03:22And so if I take the example of Asia Pacific, you know, we have been visiting prisoners in Afghanistan for decades.
03:30We are also visiting prisoners who were arrested in Afghanistan and who are detained today or were detained in Guantanamo Bay, for example.
03:38Not long ago, I mean, when you had this escalation of hostilities between Cambodia and Thailand,
03:45we were also the organization that was mandated to visit the prisoners of war.
03:51We have also been visiting prisoners, I mean, for years in the Philippines during the different non-international armed conflicts that have happened in countries.
03:59So the visit to prisoners and maintaining the family links between the prisoners and their families is one of the activities
04:08which we have been conducted since the creation of the International Committee of the Red Cross.
04:13In parallel to this activity, and we will put that, you know, I mentioned that we are protection and we are assistance.
04:19So this is protection.
04:20Under protection, we also have an activity which I think is extremely central and important,
04:27which we are conducted together with the full network of Red Cross and Red Crossian societies around the world.
04:33It is the reestablishment of family links.
04:36Because as you can imagine, in this region, there are millions of displaced people.
04:40There are still conflicts ongoing, like in Myanmar.
04:42So you have families who just have to leave everything behind.
04:47They have just to take this decision.
04:48You see that now a military operation is happening.
04:51You have to decide, should I go?
04:53What do I take with me?
04:54Where am I going?
04:55And on the way, I mean, you might have elderly people remaining behind and they are losing the contacts with family members.
05:03So as the ICOC, together with volunteers of the Red Cross, we try to find the information to be able to put them back in contact with family members.
05:12And this is happening again all over the world and also here in this region.
05:18And something also that might be less known by, I mean, your audience is we are, I mean, when you are looking for family members, some might become missing.
05:28We don't find them anymore.
05:30Or they have been killed and they were sort of in a graveyard somewhere, but the family was never informed or wouldn't know if they are still alive or not alive.
05:41So here in the Asia-Pacific, we have still very important missing files we are dealing with, like, for example, the post-war situation in Sri Lanka.
05:51So there are still thousands of families who are waiting to get confirmation whether their beloved ones are still alive or dead.
05:59You have the same type of situation, you know, you probably hear about the Marawi situation in the Philippines.
06:07I say we have a situation like that probably in Afghanistan or so in most of the situations of armed conflict, you will find yourself with this situation with people getting missing.
06:16And again, we have the chance to have this largest network of volunteers in the world, 16 million people of volunteers around the world.
06:25So they are working as a network under our coordination to try to put all these families together.
06:32Is that also happening in Gaza?
06:34I can imagine, you know, there's been the term of wounded child, no surviving family, that acronym has turned out in the medical terms.
06:45Has it been difficult to try and re-establish family links for the genocide happening in Gaza?
06:51I think, I mean, I was myself in the Gaza Strip, you know, before taking this position of regional director.
06:58So I think, of course, if we look at the situation of Gaza, and I will hear, I will just use here the words of the president of the ICOC.
07:07I think the humanitarian situation goes beyond description, you know, I mean, if you look at how horrifying the situation can be.
07:17And our president was also saying, I think it surpasses, I think, every legal, moral and human standard.
07:24So I think in there, yeah, I think it has, we have tried as much as we could to reconnect sort of families.
07:33But you can imagine that you don't move very easily around the Gaza Strip.
07:37I mean, it's a very small territory.
07:39So people know each other, you know, of course, because it's, but still, it is not easy to just go and reach the people to be able in somehow to bring them back.
07:49I mean, within their family cycle, you know, so it is a difficulty.
07:55But this is something I say with our team, which are, of course, always trying to do.
08:00But if I can also add on the activities, and then we can make the link also with the different countries around the world where we will, and also Asia Pacific.
08:08I mentioned about protection, but we, of course, have assistance.
08:13And here, I think I will not go into all the detail.
08:15But, of course, you have all the health activities.
08:20So, I mean, again, as an example, we are supporting more than 47 primary health clinics in Afghanistan, together with the Afghan Red Christian Society.
08:29We are also supporting, like, seven physical rehabilitation centers program in Afghanistan.
08:36We are also having programs of prevention around, again, the risk of mines.
08:41And I think this is one of the issues which is very prominent in this region.
08:46So, all around the health issue.
08:49And just to give you also an example of how our programs are designed,
08:53every single employee of our physical rehabilitation center in Afghanistan are themselves disabled or were themselves victims of mines.
09:02And so, we take them into the center.
09:04We train them to become, because they have gone through that experience.
09:07And then they can basically, like, look around.
09:10Then, in parallel, we have, of course, economic security.
09:14So, this is, and there you can have a full range of programs, of course.
09:17It goes from food distribution to microeconomic initiative to, like, vocational training program.
09:27And we are always trying to target the most vulnerable population.
09:31So, for example, women household related to our programs.
09:34You know, you would have single women households and all that.
09:38So, in order to try to bring them back on their feet, try to have a life which come back to a certain level of normality,
09:46which is never really easy, of course, in this situation.
09:50And last, you have also water and habitat project.
09:53I think, which are the sort of, I mean, if I take the example of the Gaza Strip, because you mentioned it,
09:59it can be very simple water trucking for the population.
10:03So, to the repair of some rather complex water system, so that the population can still have access to clean water.
10:11Because if you don't have access to clean water, you will have, like, diseases, and you will have all additional problems that will go out.
10:18So, if I take sort of the full range of the activities at the ICOC, because if I take the last pillar,
10:25and this is one of the most important, prevention and preparedness.
10:30So, and this is, I think, where in the region there is a lot we can do.
10:35You know, I think we have to make sure that people are prepared to assume their responsibilities under international humanitarian law.
10:43So, it's the promotion of international humanitarian law.
10:46Right.
10:46It's, that's really important.
10:49Okay, you've given me a lot to work with, and I have many questions to ask you.
10:53But I want to kind of focus on the first one that you talked about in terms of the,
10:56promoting the greater protection of international humanitarian law.
11:02Today is a year, marks a year since the ICRC and the Group of States launched the Global Initiative to Renew Political Will
11:11for International Humanitarian Law.
11:13I want to talk a little bit about that, because I'm curious to understand what this focus is on renewing political will.
11:22Given that today, Gaza is of course top of mind for many, and the situation in Gaza has said a lot about the state of respect for the rule,
11:33or the disrespect for the rules of war.
11:36So, talk to me a little bit about this global initiative and what it aims to achieve.
11:39Now, thank you for that question, I think.
11:42And I think the question could not be more pertinent.
11:44And here, of course, we can, we see on a daily basis pictures of conflicts around the world,
11:51be it the Gaza Strip, be it Sudan, be it many other places.
11:54And we see life, these too many violations of international humanitarian law.
12:01There is a far too permissive way of interpreting international humanitarian law.
12:08And here, just as a reminder, every country around the world have signed the Geneva Convention.
12:14Every country around the world have accepted these obligations to respect international humanitarian law.
12:21And as a reminder again, because I think this is very much critical to me,
12:26these laws were basically sort of agreed upon after the Second World War.
12:31And the message to the world was, there is a standard of humanity under which we don't want to go as human beings.
12:40So, we are not killing children.
12:42We are not attacking hospitals.
12:44We are not torturing prisoners.
12:46Because if we do so, we are not going to be able to live together on this planet.
12:52So, this came after the Second World War.
12:55Also based on the experience, and I could speak about it because I was in Japan not long ago.
13:00I spoke to Ibakusha, you know, the victims of nuclear weapons.
13:04And of course, each leader in the world, they should listen to Ibakusha.
13:08If you listen to what it meant, a nuclear bomb.
13:12And this was all the idea of international humanitarian law.
13:16Even wars have limits.
13:18We have to put certain limits to war.
13:21And our president, Mirjana Spoljaric, I think, and our colleagues,
13:25we are present in more than 100 conflicts.
13:28We are very much at the forefront of these responses.
13:31We see on a daily basis this violation.
13:34We see the impact for people.
13:36We see all this unnecessary suffering.
13:38And again, I say unnecessary because none of this suffering would be inevitable
13:44if international humanitarian law would be respected.
13:47And this is why she decided, together with six states,
13:52I mean, and these six states are Brazil, China, Jordan, France, Kazakhstan, and South Africa,
14:00together with the ICAC.
14:01I mean, it represents sort of the diversity of the world globally,
14:05to launch this initiative whereby she's asking each world leader in this world
14:11to recommit to international humanitarian law and to make it a political priority.
14:19So that is basically mobilizing world leaders of this world to basically reconfirm
14:25that they abide by these obligations and that they will respect it.
14:29And by doing so, that we will avoid the cost of the war that we see today,
14:35again, simply by watching the news.
14:37And here I'm always giving that example because, you know,
14:41I'm born in Switzerland, one of the most peaceful country,
14:44and I have two children.
14:46And when I look at that, and this is very much important, you know,
14:50if this is the standard we see on TV that we are accepting,
14:54that is the standard I will accept for my children if one day there is a war in Switzerland.
14:59And this is what definitely I don't want to happen as a father of two children.
15:05So I think we need to call the world to say we have to stand up to defend that,
15:11because if not, we are back to barbaric times.
15:16This is a little bit what it will be.
15:18Our world will become barbaric.
15:21And here we have to say, and I think on a positive note,
15:24that we are very much encouraged by the fact that today we have already 90 states
15:29who have joined this initiative.
15:32And this initiative, I think, just to describe you what it is about,
15:36you know, it is composed of seven work streams.
15:40And among these work streams, you have the one who are on prevention.
15:44How can we prevent violation of IHL?
15:47And then how can we give effective protection to the people in situation of armed conflict?
15:52And there have been already consultations, state consultation, expert consultation,
15:59and a progress report will be released in September.
16:04And then we will go into a second round of consultation,
16:08and it will culminate with a conference in 2026 that was announced by the six founding states,
16:15whereby there will be a conference on upholding humanity in war, you know, like, so that basically.
16:21And the idea is to just produce very concrete and actionable recommendations,
16:28which basically then every country can include into, like, the army's military practice, for example,
16:35in order, again, to avoid this unnecessary suffering.
16:40So it is a two-years-long initiative that has been launched.
16:45And again, with the real objective to say we need to reverse that negative trend,
16:51and make sure that this is not the standards which will be applicable in the future.
16:57So help me understand, is it really, so is the real issue with the current normalization of the flouting of the rules of war,
17:05is the issue getting a recommitment for upholding and protecting international humanitarian law,
17:12or is it about accountability, showing that there is accountability and repercussions for flouting into the rules of law?
17:23No, the law itself is not a problem.
17:26Okay.
17:27Not at all.
17:27Absolutely.
17:28I think, again, as I was mentioning, these laws were just created after the Second World War.
17:34They remain as relevant as ever.
17:37Absolutely.
17:38The problem is the accountability and respect for the law.
17:42I can guarantee to you, I have been, as in my previous postings,
17:47I was at the front line between, in the international armed conflict between the Russian Federation and Ukraine.
17:53I then was, before that, in Tigray, you know, in Ethiopia.
17:56Before, after that, I went into Israel and occupied territories.
18:00I can just tell you, if just accountability will be there in the respect of international humanitarian law,
18:09we would see far less, again, of this suffering.
18:13IHL is not a relic of the past.
18:16IHL is totally relevant for today's armed conflict.
18:21Saying so, there are certain domains in which we will need to reflect how IHL will be applicable.
18:28And this is part of the seven work streams I just mentioned.
18:32And I think there are three work streams I wanted to highlight, or at least two for this region.
18:38One is all what touches upon new technologies of warfare.
18:42Because, of course, when IHL was being designed, we didn't have drones, we didn't have artificial, we hadn't got...
18:50And this is the new reality of our world.
18:52When we are speaking here, there are probably a lot of digital type of confrontations happening without even us having a realizing, you know, that this is happening.
19:02So, how are we going to regulate the use of these new technologies of warfare so that they are somehow compatible with international humanitarian law?
19:13So, typically, we are saying, we don't want to delegate the responsibility of killing people to machines.
19:19So, where will be the accountability?
19:21So, we need to keep a minimum of human dimension.
19:24Another one which I think is really pertinent for this region, it is a work stream in this, which is called IHL, International Humanitarian Law and Peace.
19:35Because I'm a strong believer that if you don't respect the basic principle of international humanitarian law, you will have huge difficulty to get into, like, reconciliation and processes of peace moving forward.
19:55So, what we are saying, our president is saying, you know, like, humanitarian issues are often the first step towards peace.
20:03You know, and here I can give you, again, an example.
20:06When we are in the Gaza Strip, you know, when suddenly, and that's where you bring in this neutral intermediary role of the ICOC and this principle.
20:15When there is mediation between Qatar, supported by the US, Egypt, Israel, Hamas, I mean, and you get to an agreement for the release of hostages and release of prisoners in parallel,
20:28you would call an organization like the ICOC to come in and to play that particular role.
20:34So, as you know, we brought back hostages from the Gaza Strip.
20:37We participated in the release of these 1,700 Palestinian prisoners.
20:42We were called to do that.
20:43Lately, you might have seen, Republic Democratic of Congo, there were more than 1,300 prisoners disarmed in Goma, which the ICOC transported back into Kinshasa, so that they will be back with their families.
21:00But for that to happen, and I come back to this political will, you need the political will of the parties.
21:06We are not the one who will negotiating these agreements, but then, if it is happening, and when this discussion starts happening, we had the same example in Yemen, more than 1,000 prisoners we brought back from, I mean, in an exchange of prisoners operation,
21:22you call a neutral intermediary like the ICOC, and then it might trigger this discussion, Colombia with the missing file.
21:30So, we very much encourage also, when there are situations of armed conflicts, to start by discussing very basic humanitarian issues, and try to find solutions to them, which might then lead to discussions which are not ours, far more difficult around political issues.
21:48You know, this is a bit how it would work.
21:51Okay, so talk to me about what ASEAN governments can do.
21:55When we work in this region, are there concrete steps that member states of ASEAN can take in terms of upholding this political will?
22:05So, either take individually as countries, or collectively as a bloc, to uphold and promote international humanitarian law?
22:14First, let me start by saying that we have been engaging with ASEAN a lot, and with the HAHA Center, you know, which is a humanitarian branch of ASEAN,
22:23because we also see this region as really important to the ICOC.
22:28I think, for different reasons, I think this region could be a real example of also a platform where countries are still speaking to each other,
22:37where they are trying to find solutions, you know, which is not the case in many places around the world today.
22:43So, we are really hoping that we can sort of have ASEAN countries and the ASEAN platform as sort of the best practice or the example in showing how important these rules of international humanitarian law and have this political commitment.
22:59Now, what can countries do?
23:00The first thing they can do, I think, it's, and this has been an initiative since long, it's what we call bring international humanitarian law home.
23:09So, that means you need to have this conversation about what international humanitarian law is about.
23:16You need to have investment into international humanitarian law.
23:20Our president is saying, you know, today one of the main issues, I suppose, in your country, in my country, in every country, every country invests more into defense budget.
23:30If you invest into defense budget, you need to invest into international humanitarian law in parallel.
23:37You have to, because your armies must be trained.
23:40They must know how can I basically implement these rules in situation of armed conflict.
23:46So, at the ISEC, we try to work with many armies in advising, in bringing in what we saw from the field, in trying to help them train, you know, like, the different armies.
23:58We have done that since, because one of the activities we do also is we monitor the conduct of hostilities, and in a bilateral confidential dialogue, we come back to them to complain if we have the impression that they have not, or factually, the impression that they have not respected international humanitarian law.
24:17So, there is a lot about training.
24:19Then there is academics, you know, of course, also on IHL, on that.
24:23It's important that all laws that are being sort of produced are aligned and compatible with international humanitarian law.
24:31And here, I think there is also the importance of protecting the Red Cross and this neutral, independent humanitarian action.
24:38So, there is a lot you can do, and today in that Southeast Asia National Society leaders, I was also very much encouraged how the youth can play a very important role.
24:48Because I think they realize how important it is, and to demystify the things, international humanitarian law is very pragmatic, you know.
24:55You don't need to go 50 years at university to understand, I'm not going to kill children who are just playing football in the street.
25:03I'm not going to drop bomb in the middle of a village where I will kill the entire.
25:07This is, so I think we have to just demystify and bring it back.
25:13So, that brings IHL home.
25:15Then another thing that we are calling, of course, upon is that many more ASEAN countries join this initiative.
25:23And that your leaders speak out in support of international humanitarian law.
25:27And here we are, again, very much pleased that today we have 12 countries in Asia Pacific who have joined already.
25:34And we have many who are also co-chair of our work stream.
25:39So, for example, the Philippines is co-chair of a work stream of national IHL committee.
25:44So, they are leading on this consultation.
25:47And each country should have a national IHL committee with different ministries to discuss IHL issue and the rules.
25:53In parallel, we have Indonesia who is working on a very important work stream from this region, naval warfare.
26:01How are you going to protect your people?
26:03How are you going to, where will you keep your prisoners if there is a conflict at sea?
26:10And I think we have all lost experience into what is happening at sea.
26:15And again, in that regard, I think this requires investment.
26:20You know, I mean, when I'm always saying when you are in a country at peace, you might not see the added value of IHL.
26:27I can tell you when you speak about family in Gaza or families in Myanmar or families in Afghanistan,
26:34they immediately understand why we have as political leaders to stand up in support of international humanitarian law.
26:43Thank you so much for being on the show and sharing some of these really important reminders for us today.
26:48Thank you. I appreciate you. Thank you.
26:50Thanks a lot. Thank you very much.
26:51That's all the time we have for you on this episode of Consider This.
26:54I'm Melissa Idris signing off for the evening.
26:56Thank you so much for watching.
26:58Good night.
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