00:00To become law, the Stand Your Ground package of legislation requires a three-fifths majority in both Houses of Parliament.
00:08While achieving that majority may be no challenge in the lower house, the real test comes in the Senate.
00:16When it goes to the upper house or the Senate, it requires three-fifths majority there.
00:20It would mean, therefore, because the way that the upper house is formed, you have 16 government senators, 15 government senators, 6 opposition senators, and 9 independent senators.
00:35It would mean that you are looking at around 18 or 19 senators to vote for the bill in order for it to be law,
00:41which would mean that you would need at least the support of a minimum of two opposition, either opposition or independent senators.
00:50PNM MP Karim Marcel sought to clear up some misconceptions about the bill, particularly around what it allows.
00:59The degree of force use must be proportionate to the attack that you believe is taking place.
01:08So if someone, for example, enters your home or enters your yard to see if you're Judy Mango or your Zaboka or whatever the case may be,
01:18and that person from all, let's say it's a child, that person, that child is not armed or anything of that sort,
01:25it may be, it would be unreasonable to come out with your magic, load it up and knock it on that child again and again and again.
01:34Marcel also flagged a key shortcoming in the proposed legislation, for example, what if someone reasonably stands their ground and ends up killing an intruder?
01:46What happens next?
01:48Most of the other jurisdictions where you find stand your ground legislation, you have what we call immunity hearing.
01:55And this is basically where, at a very early stage of the proceedings, if you are charged, if you are a homeowner and you are charged for the offensive leader,
02:02you, or robbery or shooting with intent or whatever the case may be, you can come before the court at a very early stage in a prima facie setting
02:11and tell the court, here's what, I want to invoke my right as a homeowner that my life was under threat,
02:17I would have relied on the provisions in the stand your ground legislation,
02:21and I would have used force that I don't believe that was grossly disproportionate.
02:26And I'm asking you, based on that basis, to allow me to be free at this time.
02:32This legislation doesn't have that.
02:35Fellow panelist Janelle John-Bates weighed in with this clarification.
02:40It is not a license to kill.
02:43It doesn't give any and everybody the license to kill any and anybody on their property that they feel shouldn't be there.
02:49And it's also not a remedy for the scourge of crime and the scourge of homebreaking or home invasion in our country.
03:00And more importantly, the bill does not automatically entitle citizens to bear arms.
03:06This bill does not mean we are all going to be entitled to guns.
03:11People are making that connection, but this bill does not address how or who is able to acquire an FUL at this time.
03:21Marcel pointed to international research covering 23 U.S. states with similar legislation between 2000 and 2016.
03:31The findings, he says, are cause for concern.
03:34And according to that research, they associated with 8% to 11% national increases in homicide and firearm-related homicides.
03:47In particular, Florida saw an increase of 28% monthly rise in homicides.
03:53So if we think that our crime situation warrants putting more firearms into the hands of our citizens
03:59and telling them to shoot anybody that comes, these are the consequences that we are likely to have, probably even to 10 votes.
04:06The government, meanwhile, came under fire for not hosting consultation in PNM strongholds.
04:11But this party insists its process will guide its final decision.
04:16The PNM's position will only be finalized after we have sufficient consultation with the people of Trinidad and Tobago,
04:26following which a report is going to be generated and that report is going to be presented to the General Council
04:34after we listen to your views as expressed in these consultations.
04:39And after the report is deliberated at our General Council,
04:43then our party's caucus in the lower house and in the upper house will have a position.
04:49For now, the fate of the Stand Your Ground bill hangs in the balance,
04:53awaiting not just parliamentary votes but national debate.
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