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This edition of News Today programme focusses on the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh's (RSS) centenary celebrations and the politics over it.
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00:00Good evening, hello and welcome. Shubha Navmi is the start of our festivities ahead of Dashera,
00:07but here we always bring you the news first. News without the noise, plenty to talk about
00:13on the show tonight. Prime Minister Narendra Modi has saluted the RSS on the eve of its centenary,
00:21hailed its role in nation building. The opposition is questioning the Prime Minister's remarks.
00:28RSS at 100, building the nation or dividing society? That's going to be our big talking
00:34point. Let's get you straight with the headlines at 9 to 9. Prime Minister Modi praises the RSS
00:42at their centenary event, releases commemorative postal stamp and coin, recalls RSS's struggle
00:49for independence. Congress hits back, says RSS had no role to play in India's independence movement.
00:59Amidst the continuing standoff over tariffs, Prime Minister Narendra Modi likely to meet
01:04US President Donald Trump on the sidelines of the ASEAN summit in Kuala Lumpur this month,
01:10efforts on to fix a meeting.
01:14The United States enters a federal government locked shutdown, the first in nearly seven years
01:20after Senate Democrats block a Republican-backed funding bill.
01:28Controversy simmers over the Asia Cup trophy presentation, while Mawseem Nakwe, the PCC,
01:35PCB chief regrets the fiasco. He continues to ask Team India to collect its trophy from the
01:42ACC office in Dubai. Ex-Pakistan player Shahid Afridi wants Nakwe to resign as the PCB chief.
01:50Delhi police rags the Baba accused of molesting young girls, sex toys, porn CDs, fake images
01:58with world leaders allegedly found. Shocking sex chats show Baba asking girls to sleep with
02:04him.
02:07Amidst the political blame game over the Karoor stampede, actor-turned-netha Vijay postpones
02:13the TVK campaign for next two weeks. Earlier, Vijay and Tamil Nadu government blamed each other
02:18for the stampede.
02:22Contaminated cough syrup kills six children in Madhya Pradesh, two in Rajasthan.
02:27State government swings into action. One cough syrup company banned, others supplied without
02:32testing. Authorities are sure a stern probe will happen.
02:36Arrested activist Sonam Vangchuk's wife writes to the President of India, demands his immediate
02:43release, accuses the centre of hounding them. Vangchuk was arrested on September 26th under NSA.
02:52Singa Zubin Garg's death probe winders, his event organiser and manager are arrested by the
02:59SMCID. Duo remanded to police custody for 14 days.
03:16For the story that we are breaking at this moment, there is now a real possibility that Prime Minister
03:22Narendra Modi and US President Donald Trump could be meeting in Kuala Lumpur. Later,
03:28this month, the Prime Minister and the President may meet on the sidelines of the ASEAN Summit
03:34that is scheduled to take place in Kuala Lumpur in late October. Prime Minister Modi is scheduled
03:40to travel to Malaysia for that 47th ASEAN Summit being held on October 26th and 27th. Malaysia
03:48has also invited President Donald Trump to attend the summit. If President Trump travels to Malaysia,
03:54this will be the first multilateral meeting where both leaders participate.
03:58after the 50% tariffs against India came into force. Trump and Modi could not meet on the sidelines
04:04of the G7 Summit in Canada in June earlier this year. Pranay Upadhyay, who tracks the Ministry of External
04:12Affairs, joins us. Pranay, what are the chances now of this meeting taking place? What are your sources telling you?
04:22Pranay Upadhyay is a long overdue meeting. There are high chances, likelihood of President Donald Trump
04:28and Prime Minister Narendra Modi at least meeting each other after the gap of almost eight months.
04:33Because at this month-hand in Kuala Lumpur, ASEAN Summit is taking place in Malaysia and Malaysia is hosting
04:40the 47th ASEAN Summit where President Donald Trump is also likely to attend and Prime Minister Narendra Modi
04:45is also scheduled to visit. It is important for India. ASEAN is a big market for India and at a time when
04:51tariff controversy is on one side, India is engaging with the United States but on the other side,
04:58we are also exploring the other markets, the alternative markets and ASEAN is a big market for India
05:02where goods and services, we had an FTA with ASEAN. So, in all probability, this is the opportunity
05:09for Prime Minister Narendra Modi and President Donald Trump to at least meet each other and it has
05:14already been said that, you know, all these differences can only be worked out by the meeting of the leaders.
05:20So, if the leaders meet, then there are probability and also there is an important point, Rajdeep here,
05:25that the timeline which was set by both these leaders in February 2025 for the conclusion of the bilateral trade
05:31agreement, which is by the fall of 2025. That deadline is also approaching, you know, by this deadline only,
05:39this timeline only and in all likelihood, as President Donald Trump himself said and posted on social media,
05:45that, you know, India and United States are soon likely to conclude the bilateral trade agreement. So, let's see
05:50what happens if these leaders meet on the sidelines of the ASEAN summit and whether we could iron out those differences or not.
05:57Okay, Pranav Upadhyay, with those details, a possibility now of a Modi-Trump meeting.
06:03Now, the Prime Minister today, a day ahead of Dashera, lavished praise on the RSS at an event held in the
06:10national capital to mark a hundred years of the organization, the parent organization of the
06:16Bharatiya Janata Party. The Prime Minister saluted the sang for its role in nation building. He even recalled RSS's
06:23contribution to the freedom struggle. That instantly invited criticism from the opposition, especially
06:29from the Congress, which says that the Prime Minister is being economical with the truth and the RSS had no role
06:35to play in the independence movement. But a hundred years on, what is the RSS's role now in India today?
06:43Take a look first at this report.
06:53The RSS completes 100 years on Vijay Dashmi. At an event to mark the milestone in Delhi, Prime Minister Nareedra Modi
07:01on Wednesday unveiled a commemorative postal stamp and a hundred rupee coin.
07:09Modi himself, a swayam sevak, lavished praise on the RSS, calling it an example of sacrifice, selfless service,
07:17nation-building and discipline.
07:20After his speech, the RSS, the RSS, the RSS, the RSS, the RSS, the RSS, the RSS, the RSS, the RSS, the RSS.
07:34He described the organization as an aftar of national consciousness.
07:51अईसे महान पर्वपर सो वर्स पूर्व राष्ट्रिय स्वाहिम्षवक संग की स्थापना ये कोई संयोग नहीं था.
08:03ये हजारों वर्सों से चली आ रही उस परंपरा का उनर उत्थान था.
08:13इस्ट यूग में संग उसी अनादी राष्ट्र चेतना का पुन्य अवतार है.
08:22Prime Minister claimed that RSS suffered at the hands of British and faced persecution even after independence.
08:30पनपुज डॉक्टर हेडगेवार जी समय अने कारक्रप्ता ने स्वतनत्त आंदोलन में हिस्सा लिया.
08:361942 में जब चीमूर में अंग्रेजों के खिलाप आंदोलन हुआ उसमें अनेक स्वेंशोकों को अंग्रेजों के भीशन अत्याचार का सामना करना पड़ा.
08:50मोदी अंग्रेजों के खिलाप संगर से लेकर गोवा के सुतंतलता अंदोलन और दाद्रानगर हवेली की मुक्ति तक संगरे कितने ही बलिदान दिये.
09:04Modi ended with a call to be vigilant against demographic changes that could damage the country's communal harmony.
09:12The Congress question Modi's claims about RSS.
09:15Party leaders posted messages about what Sardar Patel wrote about the RSS, an outfit the Iron Man banned after Mahatma Gandhi's assassination.
09:45In the last five months, Prime Minister Modi has saluted the RSS at various events.
10:03On RSS Chief Mohan Bhagwat's 75th birthday, he described him as the most transformative leader the sang has had.
10:14Prime Minister Modi's glowing tributes notwithstanding, the RSS legacy is still a topic of heated debate.
10:21With Piyush Mishra, Bureau Report, India Today.
10:28And joining me now, my first guest tonight is Seshadri Chari, senior RSS leader, someone who's been the editor of the RSS's organized magazine.
10:40Appreciate your joining us.
10:42Mr. Chari, thank you very much.
10:44RSS at a hundred, the Prime Minister calls it a selfless organization committed to nation building.
10:51The opposition says that the RSS continues to divide society, particularly on religious grounds.
10:58Do you believe that the RSS even today is seen through the lens of its idea of a Hindu rashtra?
11:06No, this opposition against RSS is not new, Rajdeep.
11:12It has been going on right from the British times.
11:14The British also oppose the RSS.
11:17Dr. Hedgivar himself went to jail twice.
11:20Once in 1921 and once in 1931, 30 during the Jungle Satyagra.
11:26And in 1922, 12th July 1922, when he was released from jail after one year, there was a welcome party for him at Nagpur, which was attended by none other than Pandit Motilal Nehru himself.
11:43And Hakeem Ajmal Khan also spoke in that program, because Dr. Hedgivar was working with the Congress at that time.
11:52Although he had started RSS in 1925, nevertheless, he was also part of the Congress.
11:59So whenever he went to jail, he went as an individual, not on part of the RSS.
12:06And he was very particular.
12:08He said, all Swahim Sevaks who take part in freedom struggle should take permission from their respective Sangachalaks.
12:15And many Swahim Sevaks have taken part in such activities.
12:20But we are not on the side of propagating all these things for the sake of getting some public post and political post.
12:29So those who want to oppose the RSS are free to do it.
12:32But unfortunately, they are the people who don't study history, who don't study books, who don't try to understand RSS.
12:40But they are opposing only for the sake of opposition.
12:43And it is all politically motivated, ideologically motivated.
12:46So I am not worried about...
12:47Can I just, Joe, point out what a political scientist, Christophe Jafralow, a noted political scientist, says.
12:55He says the RSS is primarily a movement that is totalitarian in its attempt at controlling society.
13:03But controlling society from the inside.
13:06The state is not the objective.
13:08Society is the objective.
13:10That the RSS wants to control society and the minds of people and thereby build the idea of a Hindu society.
13:19That's what is the RSS's goal.
13:21And in the process, it looks for an enemy all the time.
13:25It could be Muslims one day.
13:26It could be Christian missionaries the other day.
13:29It could be the so-called Ghospatiyas a third day.
13:32How do you respond to that?
13:34No, no, no.
13:35You see, he is totally wrong on all his philosophies and his theories.
13:40I have not read his theory.
13:42But from what you are saying, I am saying this.
13:44RSS is not worried about controlling the minds of the people.
13:49RSS is a social organization.
13:52And we are all concerned and worried about the Hindu society.
13:55It's not that it's only the RSS which is doing it.
13:58Even Mahatma Gandhi himself said that what is Hinduism?
14:03We have not defined Hinduism.
14:05It is Mahatma Gandhi who has said about Hinduism that it is a relentless pursuit of truth.
14:10And if it is moribund and irresponsive to growth, it is because we, when he says we, we means Hindu society is irresponsive to growth.
14:21But sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, but two points, sir, sir, one minute.
14:25Two points come from what you said.
14:27Number one, you are quoting Gandhi.
14:30The fact is the RSS was, was deeply discomfited by Gandhi.
14:35Gandhi's idea was largely based on the idea of Hindu-Muslim unity at all costs.
14:41He even fought to try and prevent partition and eventually paid with his life.
14:46The RSS, on the other hand, wants to consolidate the idea of Hindu society through Hindu revivalism.
14:53So you can't really equate what the RSS's vision of a strong Hindu society is with what Gandhi spoke of, surely.
15:00See, we are, I am only quoting what Gandhi said in 1925.
15:05The RSS was also founded in 1925.
15:08Swami Vivekananda has also said the same thing.
15:11Dr. Annie Besant has said the same thing.
15:13Yogi Shri Aurobindo has said the same thing.
15:16We all, even Dr. Ambedkar himself said that Hindu society needs to be changed.
15:24But RSS saw, but the critics say RSS sees the Muslim as the enemy.
15:28That's the difference.
15:28We don't see anybody, we don't see anybody as an enemy.
15:33There can be no enemy as far as the nation is concerned, as far as the Hindu society is concerned.
15:40We don't have any enemies.
15:42We are only looking at the positive aspect of social regeneration, nationalism.
15:48And we want to draw a broader line.
15:51Instead of having Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Sikh and all these kinds of caste, creed, community, language, identities.
16:00We want a larger national identity.
16:03We consider every citizen of India as a citizen and as a nationalist.
16:08We don't consider anybody as an enemy.
16:12The second point you made is that you seem to suggest somewhere that RSS is primarily a social and cultural organization.
16:21How many social and cultural organizations will participate so actively in politics?
16:26How many social and cultural organizations will have Pracharaks who are then loaned to a political party and become the prime minister of the country like Narendra Modi has?
16:35Surely that fiction has ended.
16:37The RSS today, why not accept, is no longer antiseptic to politics.
16:42You are forgetting Atalvi Arivajpayee and Adwani.
16:45And Adwani ji, yes.
16:46And there have been other people also.
16:50So how can you call it only a social organization?
16:53It's a social organization with a clear political objective.
16:56RSS does not, is not a political organization.
17:00RSS does not believe that politics is the be all and end all of the society.
17:06But RSS Swaim Sevaks, again I repeat, RSS Swaim Sevaks are free to join any political party
17:13except those which either have extra constitutional authority or extra territorial loyalty.
17:22Except these two kinds of political parties, RSS Swaim Sevaks are free to join political parties and hold office.
17:29Sir, but they all joined.
17:30Sir, why not accept it?
17:32Why not accept it that the Sangh Parivar is hydra-headed, the RSS, you say, is social organization,
17:39but it has a political wing called the BJP.
17:42Would that not be a more honest way?
17:44Sorry Rajdeep, I am surprised that you are asking this question.
17:49As a journalist of such a long standing, BJP is not the political organization or the wing of the RSS.
17:58BJP, I repeat, BJP is not the political wing of the RSS.
18:03It is an independent organization.
18:05It has its own constitution.
18:06It was founded in 1980 in the background of dual loyalty, which was created after 1977 and 1979.
18:17So, BJP is not a political wing of the RSS.
18:20Be very clear about it.
18:22I am surprised that you are asking this question.
18:24No, no, sir, sir, it's not me.
18:26I am surprised that you are surprised given the fact that the RSS, as you yourself admit, L.K. Advani, Atal B.R.I. Vajpayee, Narendra Modi, many others, all of them, in some way or the other, owe allegiance to the RSS.
18:39They came from the womb of the RSS.
18:41But be that as it may, sir.
18:42There are, Rajdeep, there are swamps in the Congress Party also.
18:46I don't want to name them.
18:48They will come into trouble.
18:50Can I, can I, though, ask you this, Seshad Dichari?
18:53You came into the RSS in a way in the 1970s.
18:56It came as this movement that stood up to the emergency.
18:59There's a belief that power has in some way contaminated the RSS.
19:04For example, riches have come their way.
19:06Now you see opulent buildings like Keshav Kunj was reportedly built at 150 crores.
19:12There's a sense that with power comes wealth.
19:14And many of the old values of discipline or probity are losing out in the process.
19:20Do you agree with that?
19:22Has the RSS also in some form got corrupted as someone who grew up in an earlier RSS?
19:28What's the difference between the RSS that you grew up in and the RSS of today?
19:32No, there is no difference between the RSS in which I grew up and the RSS in which I'm
19:39now presently also part of the RSS.
19:42And there are, there are facilities which were not available in the 70s and 60s, which are
19:47now available.
19:48There have been times when 1955, 60 and even 1947 to 57, 67, even after up to emergency,
19:57there have been pracharaks who probably would not have got even two square meals a day.
20:02They had struggled and they used to travel in ST buses.
20:06I have myself traveled in ST buses in Maharashtra, Konkan region, which you know very well.
20:10You are from Goa.
20:11You know how difficult it is to travel in those days.
20:14But now since facilities are available, there is nothing wrong in making use of the facility.
20:19But RSS work does not depend only on logistic support and facility.
20:25It depends on the hard work of the Swaimsevaks and Pracharaks.
20:29So there is no difference between the RSS of 1925, 35, 45, 55, 65 and 19, 20, 25.
20:37It is the same.
20:39The dedication is the same.
20:40The sincerity is the same.
20:42The hard work is the same.
20:43Only there are facilities which are available, which we are making use of.
20:48That's all.
20:49Nothing beyond it.
20:50My final question is that there is a sense, Mr. Chari, that the RSS lacks transparency and public accountability.
20:57Does it have a clear constitution?
20:59How is a Sarsangchalak elected?
21:01All these questions are again asked by critics that the RSS is a very secretive organization.
21:06And it is an organization, therefore, that needs to be held more accountable for its actions or not.
21:12You today on the program are saying the BJP is not a political affiliate.
21:16Organization like Bajrang Dal, organization like BHP, all of them in a way are part of this sang paribar.
21:22Is the RSS an organization that lacks public accountability?
21:27Would you agree?
21:28No, no.
21:28The RSS has public accountability.
21:31RSS has a constitution.
21:33RSS holds meetings every year.
21:36The Pratrinthi Sabha is held every year.
21:39Every three years, the Sarakariva is elected.
21:42Elected.
21:42I am repeating, elected.
21:44The Sarasangachalak is a fatherly post.
21:47It is a friend philosopher guide post, which is not elected.
21:51The Sarasangachalak was selected by earlier Sarasangachalaks.
21:55But from Barasayab Devaras' time, Barasayab Devaras made a change on this.
22:01He said even during his own lifetime, he demitted office and selected some other person like Sudarshanji as the Sarasangachalak.
22:09Sudarshanji also demitted office during his own lifetime.
22:12And Rajubhaiya was elected.
22:15Rajubhaiya to Sudarshanji, Sudarshanji to Mohan Bhagwat.
22:18So these things have changed.
22:20There is nothing that RSS keeps hiding.
22:23It is not a secret organization.
22:25Shakas are held in the open.
22:28Shakas are held in the open.
22:30There is no secrecy.
22:31You can come to any shaka, any time.
22:34Say whatever you want.
22:36Keep within the discipline of the organization.
22:38That's all.
22:39Like if you go to a Gurudwara, you cover your head.
22:41If you come to RSS shaka, you have to go do by the principles that the shaka follows.
22:47Beyond that, you are a free person.
22:49You can criticize.
22:50There are people who are criticizing RSS even today.
22:52There are RSS, MSA works who are criticizing RSS today.
22:56It's a totally transparent organization.
22:59I think there are people who need to understand RSS.
23:03Come to shaka and have a face-to-face interaction with RSS.
23:07Probably then these questions will not arise.
23:10Seshatri Chari, as someone who has been part of this organization for 40-50 years
23:14and thereby knows the RSS inside out,
23:17I thank you very much for joining me and giving me your perspective
23:21on this special day or eve of the centenary of the RSS.
23:25Thank you so much for joining me.
23:26Seshatri Chari there.
23:28Let me raise big questions though that widen the debate from what we heard from Mr. Chari.
23:32What is RSS's role in independent India and indeed in the independent movement?
23:37Is it building the nation or dividing society?
23:39What is the RSS's concept of a Hindu rashtra?
23:43As I said, the RSS's role in freedom fight, false history.
23:46But what explains the RSS's endurance and its rise today?
23:50Joining me now, Sudindra Kulkarni, activist and columnist,
23:54someone who was associated with the Vajpayee government particularly closely.
23:58Medhula Mukherjee is historian.
24:00I appreciate both of you joining us.
24:03Let me come to you, Sudindra Kulkarni.
24:04I've been reading a piece you've just written for Frontline magazine
24:07where you've said the challenge for the RSS is to ensure that it is less exclusionary.
24:12You want to explain what you mean by that?
24:15What I mean by that is that the Rashtri S.Y.M. Sevak Sangh is essentially a Hindu nationalist organization.
24:29But it has to confront the fact that India is multi-religious and there are non-Hindus in fairly large numbers,
24:39especially Muslims.
24:41Now, so far, Muslims have not been part of the mainstream of the RSS,
24:47even though in recent years they have established a wing called Muslim Rashtriya Munch.
24:57But that's a marginal organization.
25:00Now, over the years, RSS has been grappling with the Muslim question in ways that has both positives and negatives.
25:11I would like to highlight the positive aspect because, you know,
25:14we cannot understand the RSS only if we focus on the positives or only if we focus on the negatives.
25:21The main criticism of the RSS is that it is anti-Muslim.
25:25There is some truth to it, but there is also another side to it.
25:31Over the years, the top leaders of the RSS, including the Sarsang Chalak,
25:37they have been making efforts to reach out to Muslims.
25:41And this has been going on from the days of Guruji Golwalkar,
25:46the second and the longest serving Sarsang Chalak of the RSS,
25:51right up to Dr. Mohan Bhagwat now.
25:53Dr. Mohan Bhagwat, as we all know, has been making efforts to reach out to Muslims.
25:59He's had a series of meetings with Muslim religious social leaders.
26:03Now, going back to Golwalkar, you know, Golwalkar made some truly revealing statements on Muslims,
26:10which unfortunately the critics are not paying attention to.
26:15I would like to highlight one specific thing.
26:20In 1972, he was interviewed by the legendary editor Khushwan Singh of the Illustrated Weekly of India.
26:30And Khushwan Singh asked him, what do you think of the Muslim issue?
26:33Golwalkar says that I am of the firm view that it is only because of historical reasons
26:41that a certain alienation has arisen between Hindus and Muslims,
26:47for which he says both Hindus and both Muslims and Hindus are responsible.
26:52Further, he said that it is wrong to hold the entire community responsible for the wrongdoings of some people belonging to that community.
27:04He also said that I am confident that both Hindrutwa and Islam can coexist harmoniously in India.
27:14But similarly, Dr. Mohan Bhagwat has recently said that anyone who says that Islam has no place in India is not a Hindu.
27:23He's called it sin. It is sin against Hinduism.
27:27So let us take these positive aspects of the RSS, build on it.
27:31I am a firm proponent of dialogue between the RSS and its critics, dialogue between RSS and Muslims,
27:38dialogue between RSS and the Congress.
27:40This alone can unite our society and, you know, overcome the absolutely debilitating divisions that have taken place in our polity.
27:53We can selectively quote both Golwalkar and Bhagwat.
27:57There are positive aspects and there are other statements also that they have made over the years,
28:03which are interpreted very differently.
28:05But Vidula Mukhaji, you heard Sudinda Kulkarni saying the time has come for a dialogue between the critics of the RSS and the RSS.
28:12How do you respond to that?
28:13Have the left historians in particular demonized the RSS from day one
28:17and therefore don't look at perhaps some of the more positive aspects of the RSS's work in terms of social service during flood relief?
28:25Do they only focus on its anti-Muslim stance that emerges from time to time?
28:31You know, I am not here as a spokesperson for any left historians.
28:41You are asking me a concrete question.
28:44I will give you a concrete answer.
28:45Please do.
28:46Yeah.
28:46And, you know, I mean, this imputing of, you know, certain notions, etc.
28:52I think let us get away from that.
28:54First question you asked was about is a dialogue desirable?
28:59Is it possible?
29:00Well, I think in any democratic society, who can be against the idea of a dialogue?
29:07I think obviously, I mean, as Indians, we would like this society.
29:12It is a plural society.
29:13There are many points of view represented in it.
29:16And if a dialogue can bring about change and coming together of different sections of society,
29:23I said, who can stand in the way of it?
29:25But the issue is not of certain statements made by certain leaders at different points in time.
29:32As we know, we can, as you just said, we can quote one statement, I can quote another, and we could go on.
29:39The issue is what is happening at the level of practice.
29:44You look at India today, in which the RSS obviously exercises enormous influence.
29:50And if we don't accept that, we are just, I think, not being honest over this government and what's going on in different parts of the country.
30:00Is India not getting more and more polarised and divided every day?
30:05The language I read in the newspapers shocks me and pains me.
30:10When I hear the chief minister of U.P. yesterday in the last three days issuing the kind of threats he is issuing by name to Muslims, you know, as a community,
30:22where there is bulldozing going on against the, you know, law laid down by the Supreme Court.
30:28I mean, what do I do with just pious statements?
30:31Look at it from the point of view of somebody who could be a victim or even somebody who is a scholar or a citizen.
30:40I think we have to go beyond that.
30:41And if we want to go to the period before independence, since you asked me that is it left historians who from the beginning have vilified the RSS, I'm sorry.
30:51The people who have understood from the beginning what RSS ideology is and have opposed it, left historians, leftists, they were all marginal forces, forget them.
31:07It is the Indian National Congress and its foremost leaders, Mahatma Gandhi, Jawaharlal, Nehru, Maulana Azad, Sardar Patel, you can name it.
31:16All of them knew and opposed the politics and the ideology of the RSS and the Hindu Mahasabha.
31:23So there was the freedom movement on one side and Hindu Mahasabha RSS on the other and the Muslim League.
31:30So there were communalists and there were nationalists.
31:32I think if we forget this distinction and of course if we forget the whole design of the British from the middle of the 19th century to divide the people of India along religious lines to perpetuate their rule.
31:45And if we don't see both the communalists, Muslim and Hindu as falling prey to that, we don't understand Indian history and we don't understand the freedom struggle.
31:55As far as the RSS role in freedom struggle is concerned, let me spend just half a minute on that since Sheshadriji, Chariji did speak on that.
32:05I think, you know, just by giving examples of Head Gewar going to jail in 1932, I mean, in 1930 in the civil disobedience movement.
32:15I mean, we all know these facts.
32:18The fact is that Head Gewar said RSS will not join the civil disobedience movement.
32:25He left his position as Sarasthan Chalak and said, I will join not the civil disobedience movement launched by Gandhiji.
32:34I will start us forest Satyagraha.
32:37At the same time, I will also go to jail.
32:40And it was also said, I will go to jail because I will be able to influence the youth who are in that jail.
32:46RSS workers in their individual capacity could join.
32:50Now, tell me, if you are a militant nationalist organization wanting to fight the British, wanting to unite all Indians, why would you do all this fine-tuning?
33:01You know, we will not act after that.
33:02The Prime Minister, Ms. Mukherjee, today said that the RSS participated in the Quit India movement.
33:10He said that the RSS opposed the British.
33:18What can I say?
33:20I mean, there are facts on one side, there are British records on one side, there are archival records, there are whole political files, there are evidences.
33:28I mean, historians and others have quoted chapter and verse.
33:32So, Prime Minister is free to not accept the facts of history.
33:36What can I do about it?
33:37I have my understanding as a historian of history.
33:40It doesn't have to match that of the Prime Minister of India.
33:43He has his opinion.
33:44You know, in a sense, Sudindra Kulkarni is the RSS in a way trying to erase its past.
33:53It's very convenient.
33:54One day, you say you're a cultural organization, one day you say you're charitable, one day you're saying political.
33:59Today, I had Sishadri Chari on my show saying we are not political at all.
34:03I mean, does the RSS also have to come clean on what exactly does the RSS, what exactly is the RSS then?
34:13If one day you're political, one day you're cultural, one day you're social, see, is that also part?
34:18They've got to be more transparent.
34:20They've got to be more accountable.
34:21Politics and political power is at the very heart and the center of the RSS agenda.
34:31There is simply no denying this.
34:35Otherwise, two pracharaks would not have become Prime Minister.
34:41And even after becoming Prime Minister, they have praised the RSS, both Vajpayeeji and Narendra Modi today.
34:53So, that's not an issue we should spend too much time on.
34:58What I would like to clarify, Rajdeep, is that harmony in our society, unity in our society, national integration is of utmost importance.
35:09And this is where the RSS as the foremost Hindu organization has a responsibility it cannot shy away from.
35:22There is a certain gap between Kathini and Karani.
35:27What it says and what it allows things to happen are two different things.
35:33We all know there are some really positive things, good things that RSS leaders have spoken from time to time about Muslims and the need for dialogue with Muslims, integration of Muslims on an equal basis.
35:49At the same time, the reality on the ground is quite different.
35:55So, that's precisely the point.
35:58What's the use of a dialogue in an abstract, in a seminar room, when you've got the Bajrang Dal, which will then lead campaigns against Muslims in the name of Gaurakshaks,
36:10when you will have bulldozer action that takes place, when you will have the normalization of hate speech.
36:16I mean, it's all very well to say we want a dialogue and then resort to constant vilification, demonization of Muslims.
36:24Rajdeep, this issue is quite complex and it has historical roots.
36:29We cannot either understand or overcome this problem without looking at it in its totality.
36:36Had India not been partitioned on the basis of the poisonous two-nation theory advanced by the Muslim League,
36:43had Pakistan not been Islamized and completely reduced the Hindu community, the Sikh community to second-grade citizens,
36:53had they not promoted Islamic extremism, things in India would have been different and RSS would not have been so strong as it is today.
37:01And therefore, this issue has to be seen in its totality.
37:04Now, there is no organization, I repeat, there is not a single organization in India,
37:10whether it is the Congress, the Communists or the RSS BJP, which is faultless.
37:14They all have their sins.
37:16The reason I am advocating dialogue is that the only way to go forward is to take up what is good in every organization and build on that.
37:27Otherwise, we will go towards civil war.
37:29Okay, your point is taken.
37:31Let me therefore give a final word to you, Mridula Mukherjee, you raised your finger.
37:35Here you've got Sudindra Kulkarni saying, let's take the best of each organization, let's not look at the worst.
37:40I mean, as I said, you know, who can disagree with such fine sentiments?
37:50I mean, I can't disagree with that, can I?
37:52It's like apple, what Mormon apple pie or whatever is the phrase.
37:56But I wanted to make a comment on what Mr. Kulkarni said a little earlier about the historical background.
38:01I mean, we are all aware what the Muslim League did, how India got partitioned, what has happened.
38:07But are we to remain trapped in that?
38:11Are we to become victims of what has happened before independence and what Pakistan has done to itself?
38:17We say we are 10 times the GDP of Pakistan.
38:20We are a secular country.
38:22Look at our constitution more than 75 years ago.
38:25Now we've gone far ahead of what Pakistan is.
38:28Why should we remain trapped in that?
38:31That cannot be a justification for what we are doing to ourselves now.
38:36Why do we want to now become a Hindu Pakistan?
38:40Is that what we want to become?
38:42Is that the future?
38:43We don't want to become a Hindu Pakistan, but the fact is the RSS today has huge traction.
38:47The fact is the BJP has huge traction.
38:50What does that suggest in conclusion, Mridula Mukherjee?
38:52Has India changed?
38:55I would, the way I look upon it, the way I assess the thing is that from the late 80s onwards,
39:05from emergency days when they first came back into respectability and then from the late 80s
39:13with the Ramjanma Bhumi movement and all that, the RSS at the core of it and BJP as the political
39:19kind of representative, they have ridden a certain course and they have done various things have
39:26happened which have brought them into prominence in Indian politics.
39:31I do not, however, believe like many people do, many of my colleagues believe that this
39:38also means that there has been a total transformation, at least of the so-called Hindu mind.
39:45I think that there are vast majority, including among Hindus, who for various reasons have voted
39:52for the BJP.
39:54One doesn't vote only on a single issue.
39:56There are so many issues and there are labartis now and doles being given here and this being
40:01happening there and I think there are large parts of the country where that ideology doesn't
40:07hold sway, where that politics doesn't hold sway.
40:09There are large sections of the people.
40:12Look what happened in the Pakistan movement in 1921.
40:16Punjab, has it bought into this ideology?
40:18Has Tamil Nadu, has Kerala, has Bengal?
40:21It's a question of how you look at it.
40:23If you look at it from the heartlet, you sit in Delhi only here, what's happening in UP or
40:28Rajasthan or Madhya Pradesh, you get a certain picture.
40:31So, I believe, I believe as a historian that in fact, the impulse of Indian history is in
40:39the direction of diversity, pluralism, secularism and that RSS and its ideology is actually a
40:46diversion from it.
40:48Sudhirita Kulkarni, I'll give you 30 seconds.
40:50You know, in order not to get trapped in the past, we should not remain prisoners of the
40:59past.
41:00In order to create a new future for India and for the whole of South Asia, we have to move
41:06towards Hindu-Muslim harmonization and the inevitable other side of it, that is India-Pakistan
41:15normalization.
41:16The time has come when Pakistan has to change, India has to change, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh,
41:23all of us have to come together.
41:26And that is, in fact, it goes to the Akhand Bharat concept.
41:32All those who were opposed to partition of India should now work towards reuniting the subcontinent.
41:39So, Indra, that's another debate for another day.
41:45Our focus today was on the RSS, its role.
41:48I'm going to leave it at that.
41:49But I appreciate listening to a variety of viewpoints.
41:53The diversity that we try on this program is the diversity, I hope, that we see on the
41:57streets of India.
41:59It's really the people of India who are the ones who need to embrace that diversity in
42:04the truest sense.
42:04And maybe the RSS needs to tell us how they are going to promote diversity in the truest
42:10sense.
42:10I appreciate my guests joining me on the show tonight.
42:13Let me turn to the other big political story that's been making news over the last few
42:17days.
42:18After missing in action for four days, TVK chief Vijay, remember, finally appeared on Tuesday.
42:25That's yesterday.
42:26Vijay released his first video statement regarding the Karur statement saying the truth will come
42:31out soon and also cried conspiracy.
42:33Now Vijay is saying that for the next two weeks, he will stop all campaigning.
42:39So the big story that's coming at the moment is that Vijay has said, I will stop all campaigning
42:44for two weeks.
42:45Pramod Madhav will give us a quick update on that.
42:48Pramod, what does this mean?
42:49Does this mean that Vijay is waiting and watching to see what impact the Karur stampede has?
42:55How do we read this?
42:56The pressing of the pause button on his campaign.
42:58Well, Rajdeep, there is no other option for Vijay currently as there are like multiple
43:05legal cases against his second level leaders, be it Bhussi Anand, be it Sitya Nirmakur
43:10or Adhav Arjun who has also flown to Delhi saying that he has some personal work and these things
43:16he needs to sort out and the major tragedy that occurred in Karur, there is like a lot
43:20of things Vijay has to explain and there is no absolute possibility that he could get
43:24any kind of permission anytime soon unless and until he could get any kind of relief
43:28from the court.
43:29So, all these things he needs to sort out before even think about actually going ahead
43:33with his campaign.
43:33But Vijay, one thing he said is that he said that he will actually continue his political
43:38journey much more stronger.
43:40He requested his fans to like I know be with him and he is also like extending his support.
43:44But for now, for the next two weeks, his campaign has been halted, Rajdeep.
43:49Next two weeks, his campaign has been halted.
43:51Clearly, he is waiting, many believe, to see what impact the entire stampede now has on
43:58his political ambitions.
43:59I appreciate Pramod Madhav, you joining me.
44:01Let me turn to one of our special stories tonight.
44:03The death of a young journalist in Uttarkashi in Uttarakhand has sparked outrage, raised serious
44:09questions once again about press freedom and safety.
44:12A journalist, a YouTuber, Rajee Pratav, went missing on September 18.
44:16He had been questioning the government, exposing various local level corruption.
44:22Ten days later, his body was recovered.
44:24Was it really a tragic road accident, as the police suggest?
44:28Or was it a planned conspiracy, as his family claims?
44:31Here's tonight's ground report.
44:36An independent journalist's mysterious death in Uttarkashi has raised concerns about the
44:43safety of journalists, especially in remote areas.
44:47Rajeev Pratav, who reports for a YouTube channel, went missing on September 18.
44:52Ten days later, the police recovered his body from the Joshiara barrage.
44:57Rajeev's wife, Muskaan, who's expecting their first child, says she last spoke to him around
45:0311.15pm on the night he went missing.
45:05He was driving a car belonging to his friend.
45:08The police say Rajeev was last seen in public at an eatery with his friends.
45:33From the restaurant, he left in the car from Gyanchu to Gangotri.
45:37On September 19, his car was found in damaged condition near the Bhagirathi river at Siona.
45:43The police recovered his slippers from the cars and his body was found after days of search
45:48on September 28.
45:51Investigators citing post-mortem report and CCTV footage say Rajeev met with an accident.
45:57Rajeev's family claim the incident took place in an area where the incident took place in an area
46:27without CCTV coverage.
46:29The family claims Rajeev was getting threats after his recent reports.
46:57on alleged consumption of alcohol by the staff at a government hospital in Uttarkashi
47:02and other stories on local corruption.
47:05several media bodies including the National Alliance of Journalists and the press club
47:11of India have called for a thorough investigation into Rajeev Pratap's death.
47:16with Ankit Sharma, Bureau Report, India Today.
47:27Let's turn to our Get Real India story and it comes today about two young lives lost after consuming government-supplied cough syrup now suspected to contain a toxic chemical.
47:34What began as isolated tragedies in Madhya
47:36is now snowballing into a major public health scare.
47:41Take a look at tonight's ground report from my colleague Sneha Mordani.
48:08Thank you so much for joining us.
48:09Taking a look at tonight's ground report from my colleagues Sneha Murdani.
48:28We Width, go across the background, go across the white waterfall now but the pressure has faced
48:32Madhya Pradesh and now Rajasthan mysterious deaths of children as young as
48:38five is shaking up both the states a five-year-old child died in sicker after
48:48consuming a cough syrup provided under the state's free medicine scheme a
48:53three-year-old child in Bharatpur fell seriously ill after taking the same
48:58brand of syrup but a poor or seeker session at it key dextromethorphan syrup joe is
49:07a but chocolate a pair parishioner I judge Kelly a sample stroke a disco on a
49:12prayer Shala kinder base the air or satis out is the way to pure pure pure rock
49:18lady in Madhya Pradesh the victim suffered acute kidney failure investigation
49:23such as the cough syrups administered to the children contained unsafe levels of
49:29diethylene glycol DEG a toxic chemical
49:35chard taarik say lake big a to the
49:39I am samajde Ki ke Cshabbis tarik tak hopke rasye Kay Kstra nokaj joe ki kurek
49:44kut chair defense Joe Joe hoerassoni duke juh hai who report why you're
49:48into the big similarity pie gay key here Joe he keep in go sab cool
49:53the Kazap dad Joe hoeranoa Mnlupke Peshatka nama Panna or Peshatka na homa
49:59The district collector in Madhya Pradesh has imposed a ban on the sale of two specific cough syrups.
50:08Advisories have been issued for parents, doctors and medical store operators to prevent further casualties.
50:29So what really is diethylene glycol? The EG is a toxic industry insolvent, mistakenly substituted for safer diluents like glycerine or profylene glycol in medications, especially in countries with inadequate quality control.
50:54Gambia and Indonesia have seen these poisoning incidents as well in the year 2022.
50:59Where 250 children died from pediatric cough syrups contamination with D.E.G. and acylene glycol as reported by the World Health Organization.
51:09Uzbekistan saw this incident. 60 children died from D.E.G. contaminated cough syrups leading to an epidemic of acute kidney injury and death.
51:18This incident, a similar one reported from Haiti in the 1990s as well and in Panama in the year 2006.
51:25Back home in India between December 2019 and January 2020, 12 children in the Uddampur district of Jammu in Kashmir died after consuming a diethylene glycol, a D.E.G. tainted cough syrups called Cold Best PC.
51:41The government has now ordered a detailed probe. A team of the National Centre for Disease Control is collecting samples, water samples as well to check the drugs also and are getting, these drugs are getting tested from MP and in Rajasthan.
51:56The use of the syrup for now has been suspended in both the states.
52:01With Bureau Inputs, Sneha Mordani in New Delhi for India Today Television.
52:07Okay, it's the day before Dashera and today is indeed Mahanavmi. Kolkata in particular is in celebration.
52:19Tonight, I want to leave you with a report on a Puja Pandal that focuses on the pain of war.
52:25Trust the people of Kolkata to always come up with imaginative Puja Pandal themes.
52:30So, I wish all of you a very happy Dashera. Stay well, stay safe. Good night. Shubratri. Jai Hind. Namaskar.
52:44Durga Puja festivities are at their peak.
52:49Kolkata has transformed into the world's biggest open art gallery.
52:53As lakhs of spectators throng the Durga Puja Pandals, here is one that has got special attention this year.
53:03The Pandal at the Behala Friends Club Puja highlights the ongoing humanitarian crisis in Gaza.
53:10This theme is based on the war in the city where we are trying to depict the hardship of the common paper.
53:17The theme of this Puja Pandal is Navanno, which is based on the title of a 1944 play by Bijan Bhattacharya on the Bengal famine.
53:35Creators of this Pandal have juxtaposed the starvation deaths of the 1943 Bengal famine
53:39with the unfolding humanitarian crisis in present-day Gaza.
53:43We are affecting the hardship of ours in 1943 for the infamous Bengal famine.
53:54And the inner message is that war doesn't give any peace.
53:58It gives hardship, whether it is past or it is present.
54:02I saw like how the rice and all the food that are stored in the markets or anywhere,
54:13so how to make this disaster happen in the world.
54:16So the portrait is all about how foods has gone from our India to somewhere else
54:22and how our Indians are having that pressure and that crisis.
54:27The devastation and human suffering comes alive as audiences are greeted with gunshots marked on the walls.
54:35Sunlight streaking through broken concrete roof as if struck by a missile.
54:38This is one of the famous poets who is now she is now she is staying in a refugee camp with her children.
54:49She has especially described this to describe her hardships.
54:57The artist here sends out a strong anti-war message, be it the one at Palestine or in Ukraine.
55:07The message is very clear that war will only lead to more human suffering
55:11and therefore the need for human empathy.
55:16With camera person Tapuz Bhairi, Indrajit, for India Today.
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