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On July 23rd, the International Court of Justice issued an advisory opinion on countries' obligations to address climate change under international law. According to their unanimous ruling, nations can now be held accountable for their climate-harming practices, even if they have not signed onto the Paris Agreement. The ICJ ruling also links climate action to the protection and promotion of human rights, including the right to a clean, healthy, and sustainable environment. On this episode of #ConsiderThis Melisa Idris speaks with Professor Tan Sri Dr Jemilah Mahmood, Executive director of the Sunway Centre for Planetary Health at Sunway University, and founder of Mercy Malaysia. In the last decade, she has served in leadership roles internationally with the UN and the Red Cross, and was the 2019 recipient of the ASEAN prize.
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00:00Music
00:00Hello and good evening. I'm Melissa Idris. Welcome to Consider This.
00:14This is the show where we want you to consider and reconsider what you know of the news of the day.
00:19On July 23rd, the International Court of Justice issued an advisory opinion
00:24on countries' obligations to address climate change under international law.
00:29According to their unanimous ruling, nations can now be held accountable for their climate-harming practices
00:37even if they haven't signed the Paris Agreement.
00:40The ICJ ruling also links climate action to the protection and promotion of human rights,
00:46including the right to a clean, healthy and sustainable environment.
00:51Joining me on the show today to discuss this further is Professor Tansri Dr Jamila Mahmood,
00:55Executive Director of the Sunway Centre for Planetary Health at Sunway University.
01:01She's also the founder of Mercy Malaysia.
01:03And in the last decade, she has served in several leadership positions in the UN and in the Red Cross.
01:12She was the 2019 recipient of the ASEAN Prize.
01:17It's an honour to have you in the studio with me.
01:19Welcome to the show, Tansri.
01:20Thank you, Mel.
01:21This ICJ advisory opinion, I've learnt that you have had a direct personal involvement in it.
01:31Can you tell us about that?
01:33I can now.
01:34Well, in the last year, as you know, a group of law students took up this issue to file a case in ICJ.
01:48At the time, I was contacted by the legal firm that was handling this case
01:54to provide an independent medical opinion on the impact of climate change on human health.
01:59So, I provided that and to my surprise, they really liked it and included it in the dossier for ICJ.
02:08So, you would have seen that health is quite central to the case.
02:15I believe I'm one of maybe many people who have provided information and evidence of the impact of climate change on health.
02:23Can you tell us what you included in your submission?
02:27Well, I included the general impact of climate change on health is broad.
02:32First of all, you know, you have the direct impacts of climate crisis, for example, harm to people, injuries from flood and so forth.
02:40But also, the effects of heat to every man, woman, child on whether it is more cardiovascular events, heat strokes and so forth.
02:52But also, something that people don't realise is the impact on pregnancies, miscarriages, stillbirths, premature labour.
03:00And particularly for outdoor workers, many of whom are the most vulnerable, the lack of cooling stations and women especially who try to drink less water
03:10because they don't want to go to the toilet frequently, they get very severe impacts of dehydration and heat.
03:17So, I think on top of that, climate change also causes a change in patterns of disease.
03:24So, vector-borne diseases, you will be seeing, for example, what is normally tropical diseases now arising in temperate countries,
03:32dengue in Texas, malaria in Washington, D.C.
03:36And probably the re-emergence of other diseases that we probably thought was, you know, dormant and not active, probably re-emerging again soon.
03:46So, this whole pattern of zoonotic diseases, pandemics, new epidemic outbreaks and so forth.
03:52So, I mean, so you've included that in your submission and clearly the legal team thought it was important enough to include it.
04:01The ICJ confirming that it is part of the, need to be part of international law.
04:09The need for safe, healthy, sustainable environment must be protected by governments now.
04:14Now that we have this landmark ruling that you must be so proud to have been part of,
04:21what was the most powerful signal to you from this ruling?
04:25I think the most important thing is, you know, when you have law,
04:29you must remember law is to protect citizens and people.
04:32So, I think this ruling affirms that climate action is not just a moral or political issue.
04:38It is about a legal obligation under international law to protect the citizens of this world
04:44against the impact of climate change and the drivers of climate change that are actually causing all these problems.
04:52So, for me, it is a signal to governments and businesses alike that climate in action can now be challenged in the courts
05:01and then opens this door to greater accountability and transparency,
05:06something that we have been really, you know, really pushing for.
05:09We know that the most powerful signal that this opinion sends is that the law is now on the side of the planet and the people
05:18and it's time for governments, governments, businesses to step up, sit up, pay attention,
05:24take notice of the so-called little people like us who are really suffering as a consequence.
05:30I mean, this landmark opinion is what it is that, is that, is landmark.
05:36It was so important when it came out and I think, you know, coming from the highest, the world's highest court,
05:43it surprised me that in the days following that there wasn't a lot of attention.
05:48It seemed to have come and go with very little public attention and political attention and policy attention.
05:55Why do you think that was? Why do you think such a significant moment barely registered here?
06:02I think it was really quite a breakthrough advisory opinion and much of the media in the West has carried the stories.
06:11But Malaysia has been quite quiet. You know, I wrote an op-ed in the newspapers.
06:15We have been talking about it. I think it's so important for us to understand this because the implications on our government,
06:23on our businesses is quite serious. You know, I would like to think that the government sits up now
06:29and whoever is drafting the climate law, the RUPIN, has to now take this into consideration.
06:36I have, you know, we have had some consultations on this law, public consultations,
06:42and I still think it lacks a real focus on human health and well-being.
06:46We have to take that into consideration.
06:49So I hope that with this ICJ advisory opinion, our lawmakers now can really re-look at this draft,
06:57which has not been endorsed yet. We have to strengthen it.
07:00Do you think we've underestimated how much this ICJ advisory opinion raises the stakes for us?
07:09Is there, given how much we spend on fossil fuel, we are a fossil fuel producing country,
07:15do you think we've just not understood how much impact this could have on our government
07:21and our policies and our finances?
07:22I think, yes, I think to a point, I think it is not well understood,
07:28the legal implications of this. And probably a little, you know,
07:33with so many things on the plate of governments, it loses sight that these things might come back and hit them, right?
07:40You're talking about young populations now who are more aware, right,
07:44who know that they have a right to environmental, you know, integrity and well-being.
07:50And Malaysians are suffering. Young people are really anxious about climate change.
07:56And some of the studies we've done have shown that, you know,
08:00it's a significant number of young people who are affected.
08:03So it will not take long for a group of young people to come together and challenge the government
08:11because the evidence is too clear.
08:14We are seeing this now, you know, even in Malaysia, we are worried about water shortages.
08:20We are looking at the potential of crop failures.
08:24You know, all of this will affect nutrition, will, in fact, impact everyone.
08:28Well-being, we are seeing stunting in Malaysia.
08:31But on top of that as well, you know, the climate anxiety and the heat itself,
08:36particularly heat, is going to take a lot of absenteeism.
08:40It will have, you know, absenteeism will happen.
08:43And again, I mentioned in the start, it's a very unbalanced impact.
08:47It will be those who are the most vulnerable, the ones working outdoors.
08:51And this means we have to look at migrant workers.
08:54We have to look at, you know, how are we going to make sure they are also protected
08:58in a country where we still quite rely on non-migrant workers.
09:01That's really, that's a really important point.
09:03Because I think when, often when conversations around climate justice,
09:07we think about countries, right, nation-states that are most climate-affected
09:12versus the most, you know, historical polluters, emitters, for instance.
09:16But you're going down deeper into the demographics of a population.
09:19Who's going to be more impacted?
09:22You even talked about the gendered impact of health on, climate change on health, right?
09:27So we should be looking at how it affects people down to the local level.
09:32At country level, one might argue that, you know, we are not the polluters, so to speak.
09:36It's the West and therefore they need to pay.
09:38That's why there's a loss and damage fund being proposed by the cops.
09:41And we are seeing that it's not funded, all right?
09:43It's not funded to the extent that it should be funded.
09:46So this compensation to poor countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh,
09:50who are suffering year in and year out floods and cyclones
09:53that devastate, you know, the entire nation.
09:56But even for Malaysia, I think let's not be complacent.
09:59We are a small nation, but our emissions, even though it's 0.7%,
10:02if you look at per capita emissions, we're still quite high.
10:06So everyone has a role to reduce emissions, every country, every person, right?
10:12But one of the things I will say is that at the end of the day, it's about people
10:17because the people build the nation.
10:19The people are responsible for driving economy.
10:22And, you know, they are your citizens.
10:24They are the ones who vote for governments.
10:26So if they are going to be so badly impacted,
10:29there will be a direct impact on governments as well and to our economy.
10:32I think that, you know, the data that we are seeing,
10:36particularly from the UK Actuarial Society,
10:39is showing that we have breached 1.5.
10:41We will touch 2 degrees by 2037.
10:45And when that happens, it's no longer climate change.
10:47It's climate chaos.
10:49Already we are seeing, you know, the newspapers sharing
10:52how heat waves are coming one after the other in Europe
10:56and loss of about 87% of property by wildfires.
11:00Spain is on fire right now.
11:02And the impact of that burning of the bush and the forest
11:08is very severe on health.
11:10They're finding that the smoke that you're inhaling from burning forest,
11:15including the haze that we are inhaling,
11:17is worse than what we expected.
11:19It will have very severe consequences on our health,
11:22not just respiratory, right up to Alzheimer's.
11:25Wow.
11:26Yeah.
11:26So you cited, you mentioned that you had written an opinion piece on this.
11:31And in that piece, you wrote, if I may quote you,
11:34you said, foot dragging is no longer morally or legally defensible.
11:38I wanted to get you to elaborate on that.
11:41Who exactly has been foot dragging here?
11:44Maybe you can talk to us a little bit about what foot dragging looks like
11:48and why it's no longer morally defensible.
11:52You mentioned that in the beginning as well.
11:54So I think the opinion itself carries not just a justice piece,
12:00which is intergenerational justice for people, right?
12:03But also moral and political obligations, right?
12:07We have to look at mitigation adaptation,
12:11but we also have to turn the tap off.
12:13And that tap is fossil fuels, right?
12:15We know we need to have a safe and just transition.
12:18And having a safe and just transition doesn't mean you drag it for a long, long time.
12:23You've got to accelerate it, right?
12:25The renewable energy sector must accelerate.
12:29Around the world now, people are almost totally running on renewable fuel.
12:34We have enough expertise in this country
12:37and enough resources to drive renewable energy.
12:40I think what we need to do is be very clear
12:43that some of the decisions we make will have impact.
12:47One of them, of course, is fossil fuel subsidies,
12:49which has been mentioned in the ICJ ruling
12:53that states can be held accountable as well on fossil fuel subsidies.
12:57It's explicit in the advisory.
13:00And we know, for example, in Malaysia, I have some data that, you know,
13:03the fossil fuel subsidies, I think, is to,
13:05let me gather the data, probably around the cost to health is about,
13:14it can range between $12 to $28 billion per year from premature death.
13:18And then you've got the subsidies which are slightly lower than that.
13:22But that means you use these subsidies to provide people access to fuel,
13:27which actually has harm to their health.
13:30Rather than that, why not channel that funding
13:33towards accelerating renewables,
13:35making sure there's good infrastructure for public transport.
13:38So I think there are many ways that we can rethink
13:41how we go through this transition in a much more rapid way,
13:46but also one that's fair to human beings, right?
13:48Fair to our health.
13:49So, yeah, just transition doesn't mean a prolonged transition.
13:53And you're absolutely right.
13:54So we had recently, I think it was a few weeks ago, last month,
13:59where the Prime Minister made the special announcement.
14:02He said, Ron 95, petrol prices will remain or will be lower in September.
14:09And that comes just, you know, in the same breath of us being a net zero target, right?
14:17These contradictions of the country,
14:20what does it tell you about where our priorities are,
14:25both economic and emissions?
14:29Because subsidies, as you said,
14:32its political capital will be sacrificed if subsidies are sacrificed.
14:37So I have the numbers now.
14:38The fossil fuel industry, I mean, the, sorry,
14:41the subsidies are about 38.2 billion between 2022 to 2024, right?
14:48And fossil fuel related air pollution costs this country
14:51between 12 to 28 billion annually through premature deaths.
14:54So basically, you know, you're given a subsidy of 38 billion
14:59and you spend about 28 billion on the cost of health.
15:04So, you know, wouldn't it have been better to use that money
15:07to improve health infrastructure, improve road transportation,
15:11accelerate renewables,
15:12and getting people, you know, access to that, you know,
15:17transportation and whatever they need for the fossil fuels for.
15:20So a rewiring of how we behave, right?
15:23How we act, how we use public transportation and so forth.
15:28So I think, you know, you mentioned it, it's political capital.
15:32And we all know that, you know,
15:34these are the decisions that some governments will make.
15:36And at the same time, I think, you know,
15:39yes, we have the National Energy Transition Roadmap.
15:42It's a place to start.
15:44But it still proposes quite a substantial share
15:48of fossil fuels in the mix, right?
15:51So can we accelerate that?
15:52Can we really pivot to this?
15:54And I'm not a fan of carbon capture,
15:57utilisation and storage because, you know, it's unproven.
15:59And the cost of that is detracting us
16:02from addressing the root cause of the problem.
16:04So I think, I just feel, I'm really sorry to say this,
16:08but I think that we might not be heading the direction
16:10that we want to actually achieve our commitments to net zero.
16:14Because if we want to seriously do that,
16:16we need to align both the ambition and policy pathways, right?
16:20So that we can actually get there.
16:22Tan Sri, given this ruling now, that it's international law
16:26and hopefully that when we have this climate change law,
16:30it will take into account what the ICJ has said.
16:34Could we then see a future where the government or policy makers
16:39that prioritise fossil fuel subsidies
16:42could be held to account for climate-related damage?
16:47The ICJ advisory clearly and explicitly states
16:51that member states can be held account on fossil fuel subsidies
16:55that could potentially harm people.
16:58This, actually, the evidence is very clear.
17:02The World Bank has come up with data,
17:03IMR has come up with data,
17:05how much fuel subsidies against the cost of health.
17:07In Malaysia itself, between 2022 to 2024,
17:13our spend on fuel subsidies was in the region of RM38 billion.
17:18But the cost to health at the same time
17:20was between RM12 to RM28 billion per annum,
17:23which is from premature deaths and other health consequences.
17:28So in other words, with the subsidies,
17:31you're actually also causing more deaths
17:33and spending money that could have in the first place
17:37been spent to improve health infrastructure,
17:40to improve public transportation,
17:42improve, accelerate our renewable energy pathway
17:46rather than on fossil fuel subsidies.
17:48But these are decisions that our policy makers
17:50and our political leaders have to make.
17:54Can we talk about the trickle down from governments, right?
17:58So policymakers make these decisions,
17:59but they're also in charge of regulating corporate admitters.
18:04How might that trickle down, the ICJ ruling,
18:07trickle down to the private sector?
18:10With the ICJ advisory,
18:14what will happen is that there are clear science-based limits.
18:18Scientists are now stepping up to say,
18:19hang on a minute, we know the science.
18:22It's been so clear.
18:23We need hard caps on carbon dioxide emissions,
18:27not just CO2, methane and other black carbon
18:29and all the other nitrous oxides and so forth,
18:32all the toxins and no offset loopholes, right?
18:35This is one of the things that a lot of people are saying,
18:38or we just offset, but that's a loophole
18:40because at the end of the day,
18:42you don't reduce the amount of emissions
18:43and routine compliance.
18:45I think it's not just about compliance,
18:47it's about really understanding
18:48there has to be a significant shift
18:50in how we generate energy and how we consume energy.
18:54It's not just, we'll continue consuming
18:56in an exponential way
18:58if we don't start changing the way we live, right?
19:02Mandatory disclosure and liability,
19:04I think that audited emissions, methane,
19:07climate risk reporting, I think,
19:09with penalties that accompany for misreporting
19:13and legal exposure for harms.
19:15So I think the ICG opinion strengthens the case
19:17that persistent failures to prevent climate harm
19:21can constitute an internationally wrongful act.
19:25Wow.
19:26And raising the stakes for both states
19:28and via domestic law, the companies as well, right?
19:31So I think this will actually push for real accountability,
19:36which means that polluters have to pay
19:39for compensation for health-related damages.
19:42So, you know, and the health industry
19:44will now have to play a very important role
19:46in actually calculating the cost.
19:49WHO is doing it.
19:50There are many bodies that are now taking health
19:54as the central part of it.
19:56Okay.
19:57That does, I do wonder, Tan Sri,
19:59would a public health framing
20:01maybe make politicians or make Malaysians
20:05sit up and take notice?
20:08Is there more of an urgency whenever,
20:12because we've just come out from the pandemic, right?
20:15Do you think that's more of an urgency
20:17if we get people to connect
20:18and policymakers connect the dots
20:20between all these extreme weather patterns,
20:22the air pollution, food scarcity,
20:24food security, and our own health and safety?
20:27Infectious diseases as well, right?
20:29And mental health and others.
20:30I think, yes, this is why, you know,
20:33I'm a proponent of planetary health.
20:35It is at the core of it is public and global health,
20:38but recognising that health doesn't exist in a vacuum.
20:41It requires the natural systems around it.
20:43We will not be healthy unless the planet is healthy.
20:47And the minute the planet turns unhealthy,
20:50the health impacts on us just escalate.
20:53And these things were not recognised in the past.
20:55You know, we talk about lung cancer, for example.
20:59There are more lung cancers now that are non-tobacco related
21:02because of pollutants in the air.
21:04So things like this are not spoken of enough.
21:08For example, acceleration of Alzheimer's, infertility,
21:14you know, things like cardiovascular diseases and strokes.
21:18These are all now related to heat and pollution.
21:22So then there's new evidence.
21:24I talked about fertility problems.
21:26I talked about miscarriages, about loss of pregnancies.
21:30So there's a wide range of things.
21:33And then there's the indirect with the crop failures,
21:36malnutrition and so forth, right?
21:37But don't forget, looming behind this, you know,
21:40the climate change doesn't happen also without biodiversity loss.
21:44There are two sides of a coin.
21:46Because you lose biodiversity,
21:48you've lost the ability to absorb CO2.
21:51You've also lost the ability to capture water.
21:53And therefore, you know, the zoonotic leaks will happen,
21:57the transmission of diseases and so forth.
21:59You mentioned earlier in our conversation,
22:02you mentioned climate anxiety.
22:03Yes.
22:04And I do think a lot of people feel this.
22:09Talk to me a little bit about that.
22:11When you are faced with climate anxiety or climate anxious people,
22:16what do you say to them?
22:17And I also do want to highlight the fact that this ICJ case
22:22was driven by young people, young Pacific Islanders.
22:28Yes.
22:29So talk to me about climate anxiety.
22:32But in the context of where climate leadership is coming from today.
22:38You and I, when we hear the thunder outside,
22:42we already worry about how we're going to get home.
22:45Will the traffic be bad?
22:46That's a source of anxiety as well.
22:48But for young people, they're seeing this unfolding,
22:51that their future is actually one that might not even be inhabitable.
22:56So when we talk to young people,
22:58and at our centre, we run something called climate courage workshops.
23:01We frame it in a positive way.
23:03We tell them, you are courageous, you are strong.
23:06This is not just doom and gloom.
23:07There are solutions.
23:08There is enough science.
23:09There's enough knowledge.
23:10There's enough innovation.
23:12And there are enough resources.
23:13If we want to do a concerted effort now to deal and tackle with the climate crisis.
23:19So giving them that assurance and giving them tips on what to do, right?
23:25Talk to someone.
23:26Recognise the most important is self-awareness.
23:29Are you anxious?
23:30What are you doing when you're anxious?
23:31Are you talking to someone about it?
23:33Who can you reach out to?
23:35Getting them to have little focus groups to support each other.
23:40And then getting them to do climate positive action so that they feel that they can be part of the solution.
23:46This is just an indirect therapeutic kind of group therapy for young people.
23:53But ultimately, states and businesses have to be responsible and really ensure that the future of these young people, the future generations that will be here, will not inherit a place that is so unsafe for them.
24:10And that whole concept of intergenerational justice.
24:12I always tell people, how will you answer when a person in the future turns back to you and says, you knew, you knew this was happening.
24:21What did you do?
24:23What is your legacy on this earth?
24:25That when you knew the world was falling apart because the climate was in chaos, because there was so much deforestation, there was too much fossil fuels.
24:35What did you do?
24:35We have to answer that, right?
24:38Yes.
24:39Well, I appreciate that you have a climate courage workshop.
24:44And I think that's a wonderful, hopeful note to end this conversation on.
24:48Thank you so much for being on the show with me.
24:50I appreciate your time.
24:51Thank you very much.
24:52That's all the time we have for you on this episode of Consider This.
24:55I'm Mr Idris, signing off for the evening.
24:57Thank you so much for watching.
24:58We'll see you next time.
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