00:01The Interior Minister Bruno Retoilleur ordering Mayers not to fly the Palestinian flag on Monday,
00:07which is the day that's at the UN where we talked to Pamela.
00:10The French are due to formally recognise the state of Palestine.
00:14William Julli is in Belgrade, a Franco-British lawyer specialising in international criminal law and human rights.
00:20Good to see you tonight, William.
00:22Legally, how do you view this one, the order of the Interior Minister and whether the town halls have to comply?
00:28Where do things stand to you?
00:30Yep, there's nothing in the French law about whether you can do this or you can't, meaning fly a flag.
00:37The only reference in French law is in the Constitution and this has to do with the French flag.
00:44So you need to look into case law because this is where you find answers.
00:49Very high level review of decisions about flags in France.
00:57You have mainly decisions of interest for what is at stake now with the Palestinian flag regarding two other countries, which are Ukraine and Israel.
01:08And the courts have decided differently, depending on the situations and depending on whether the test was met or not, that a flag, according to courts, can only be floating on a town hall, for example.
01:30If this is not, I'm talking about a foreign flag, not the French one or the EU flag, because the EU flag can also be floating on a town hall on the EU day.
01:42But for foreign flags, the test is that this must not be an expression of political, religious opinion.
01:54And this is the principle of neutrality of the state.
02:01This is very interesting.
02:03The only exception...
02:04Yeah.
02:05No, carry on, William.
02:06Please.
02:07I'll ask you in a moment. Carry on.
02:08Yeah.
02:09So the question is whether this is an expression of a political opinion or not.
02:17If the answer is yes, you can't do it.
02:20If the answer is no, then you can.
02:22So the question is, when is it an expression of political and when is it not?
02:28And for Ukraine, there was a favourable decision saying that you can use that flag and you can show the flag.
02:37The reason is that it was considered that this was only the expression of solidarity and only with a humanitarian goal.
02:49And because of that, there was a green light for the flag to stay where it was and for town halls to show the flag.
02:57Well, here's the thing.
02:58Just given what you've said, William, we go back to a number of court orders.
03:02So one in June where a court orders the mayor of the eastern city of Besançon to remove the Palestinian flag.
03:08It again goes back to that same quote.
03:10It's about neutrality.
03:11The mayor, Anne Vigneault, said she was, quote, shocked by that decision, but she removed it.
03:15The same thing in Nice.
03:17The mayor of Nice was told to remove the Israeli flags.
03:20And again, neutrality.
03:21But then the question comes, these are individual areas, individual court rulings, but for a federal level,
03:26if on Monday there are decisions taken unilaterally by mayors, what do you see happening in terms of this being imposed?
03:34Is this an ask or could this be an order that could be followed up with a penalty?
03:39If there is a decision to put these flags on the walls, then they will for sure be challenges before the courts.
03:54And as I said, the courts will decide, as you said, the Israeli flag, there was an order to take it down because it was considered that it had been there for too long.
04:06And it was not anymore only the expression of solidarity with the hostages.
04:11The court decided that it needed to be taken down.
04:14Palestinian flags for the moment have not been authorized to be flying because it is considered, as for now, as an expression of a political position within an international conflict.
04:28What could maybe bring a change because for the moment case law is very clear on Palestinian flags.
04:35There's also another case law which said that a mayor could not forbid anyone to have a flag with him of Palestine because that was a too strong ban.
04:47But for what is having a flag on a town hall for the moment, judges said for Palestine, no, what could bring a change.
04:55And that's my conclusion is if France ends up as planned in recognizing Palestine as a state and this therefore becomes the official position of the French state.
05:10This could possibly bring a change, possibly, I don't know what the judges will say, in the fact that flying the flag would not only then be the expression of a political opinion, but would be the expression of the position of France as a state vis-a-vis this situation.
05:30It changes the dynamic.
05:31It could, maybe it won't, maybe it will.
05:35I get a feeling we'll be talking again on Monday.
05:36It is a significant day, diplomatically.
05:39It's a pleasure.
05:40Thanks for your time.
05:41William, thank you.
05:42William, Julie.
05:43I'll be back in Paris.
05:44It'll be easier.
05:45Fantastic.
05:46We'll speak in the studio.
05:47Franco-British lawyer specializing in international criminal law and human rights.
05:49Stay with us here on Worldview and also coming up in the next 45 minutes, The World This Week, four distinguished correspondents looking back at some significant events of the past seven days.
Be the first to comment