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00:00Meanwhile, Israel's longest-serving Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is facing a vote that could see his government dissolve.
00:05Key coalition partners are threatening to bring down his government.
00:09The element that could see his demise is the ultra-Orthodox community,
00:12which has been calling for a law to be passed to officially and permanently exempt them from military service.
00:18A divisive issue that has always split Israel and is now ever more coming to the fore with the ongoing war.
00:25To get more insight on it all, we can speak to Middle East Director at the International Communities Organization,
00:30and a former hostage negotiator between Israel and Hamas,
00:33columnist as well for Israeli newspaper, The Times of Israel, and the Palestinian newspaper Al-Quds.
00:38Mr. Gershon Baskin, thanks so much for joining us here in the France 24 studio.
00:42Can we start by maybe the politics in Israel?
00:45Tell us a bit more about this vote that's expected today in the Knesset.
00:48Well, the vote is really urgent now because of the war in Gaza.
00:51The Israeli army is actually in need of more than 10,000 soldiers
00:55because of the large number of soldiers who have been killed,
00:58because of the large number of Israeli civilians who are serving reserve duty for hundreds of days.
01:04The ultra-Orthodox community has been exempt from military service for all the past years,
01:10and now there's a real need.
01:11So there is no law that really exempts them from military service.
01:15The army is sending out draft notices to them, and they're not showing up.
01:19So the issue is whether or not there are going to be sanctions imposed on these young men.
01:23There are about 60,000 eligible young Orthodox, ultra-Orthodox Jews who could be in the army,
01:29who don't show up for military service.
01:31And now the debate is whether or not these sanctions should be imposed on them.
01:35If my children were not drafted, they would go to prison.
01:38And the ultra-Orthodox who get the draft notices and don't show up, they're simply ignored.
01:43So this is a change because of the need for soldiers and, of course, the ultra-Orthodox community.
01:49And their leaders are against making a law that does not continue the exemption of military service.
01:56Could this issue actually bring down Netanyahu's government?
02:00It is probably the only issue that could bring down the government.
02:02Now, it's kind of short-sighted on the part of the ultra-Orthodox political leaders
02:07because they won't get a better deal anywhere else than they have with Netanyahu.
02:10But on the other hand, political decisions are not always coherent, logical.
02:15They're sometimes emotional.
02:16And there's an emotional response to the failure of Netanyahu to make good on his promise
02:21that he would pass a law that would exempt him.
02:23Netanyahu's not able to pass that law.
02:26And then the impact, if, if, and this is all hypothetical for the moment,
02:30but if his government falls, the impact then on the war in Gaza?
02:33There wouldn't be an impact.
02:34There would be a temporary government which would have all the powers of a regular government
02:38until the election date.
02:40He might be limited on some of the things that he could do,
02:42but still, the question of when this war ends or if it continues is in the hands of Netanyahu.
02:48We all know that there was a deal on the table that would end the war.
02:51Hamas is demanding that the end of the war be included,
02:55and any kind of deal that would release the Israeli hostages.
02:58The 55 remaining Israeli hostages amongst two, about 20 or 21, are believed to be alive.
03:04The overwhelming majority of the Israeli public wants this deal to be done,
03:07want the war to end, and want the hostages to come home.
03:10And Netanyahu is waging this war as a war to save his coalition,
03:14because if he were to agree to end the war,
03:16his coalition would also break up.
03:17The right-wing members of his coalition,
03:20his minister of finance and his minister of national security,
03:23Benvir and Smutich, would both the government,
03:25and the government would fall also over this issue.
03:28But how long is he planning to continue this for?
03:31Forever.
03:32There are people in his cabinet,
03:34the new person that he has appointed to head the Israeli internal security,
03:39the Shin Bet, has said that this is a war that will last forever.
03:42So there are people that believe that we have to fight this war forever.
03:45When we all know that there is no strategic advantage to fighting this war,
03:48this war should have ended way long ago.
03:50We're in the 19th month of the war.
03:52It should have ended after a month, after two months.
03:54So much killing and destruction has been done.
03:58So many Israeli soldiers have been killed.
04:00So many hostages have been killed.
04:02And the humanitarian crisis in Gaza is a humanitarian disaster,
04:07which Israel is directly responsible for.
04:09Of course, Hamas bears the responsibility for attacking Israel on October 7th, 2023,
04:15and they committed an act of national suicide for the Palestinian people on that day.
04:19But the destruction that's been done and continues to be done has no strategic value to Israel and has to be stopped.
04:26And Dina, as you say, they're backing up what you said.
04:29I've read that you say, you know, what Benjamin Netanyahu asks for, you know,
04:32the complete annihilation of Hamas is simply, you know, an impossible...
04:36It cannot be done militarily.
04:37The annihilation of Hamas can only be done politically by the Palestinian people themselves,
04:41who would choose to have leaders who don't want to commit national security.
04:46Palestinian people need to, I hope, will come to the conclusion that they have no viable armed struggle against Israel.
04:52They have to deal with the existence of Israel.
04:54Seven million Israeli Jews and seven million Palestinian Arabs live between the river and the sea.
04:59And they have to recognize the right of both sides to be there and come to the conclusion that the French president has come to,
05:05that the time for the two-state solution is now, the time for recognition of Palestine is now.
05:11This has to be done by the entire international community.
05:14At the same time, anyone who talks about a two-state solution should also recognize Israel if they don't.
05:19And this is what the French president, Macron, is trying to push through with a big conference that's happening on Friday here in Paris
05:26of hundreds of Israelis and Palestinians who are coming to support the two-state solution.
05:30And then, of course, on the 17th of June in New York, the Franco-Saudi summit and the framework of the alliance
05:36for the implementation of the two-state solution will take place in New York,
05:40hopefully with the whole world coming together and saying this war has to end and we have to move toward peace.
05:45But a major stumbling block is the position of the United States.
05:49Only this morning we're hearing from them that this idea of a two-state solution is no longer where they're headed.
05:53Well, I would remind President Trump that when he presented his deal of the century back in his first term,
05:59he essentially presented what was a two-state solution.
06:02The Palestinian state and his plan wasn't much of a state and they didn't have control of their borders.
06:07But nonetheless, the principle is there.
06:09And we all know that Trump believes that this war in Gaza needs to end.
06:12That's the first thing that has to happen.
06:14The war has to end.
06:15Before we can even talk about a political settlement.
06:19But Trump will come to the conclusion as well that there is no alternative to a two-state solution.
06:23If he supports Israel's right to defend itself and right to exist,
06:26he has to support the Palestinian people's right to exist,
06:29to defend themselves, to create a state of their own.
06:32Because Israel will never have security if the Palestinians don't have freedom, independence and dignity and security as well.
06:38The Palestinians will never have that freedom, liberation, dignity, security if Israel doesn't have security.
06:44That's the deal here.
06:45But we have heard Trump repeatedly push on with his idea of moving nearly Palestinians out of Gaza.
06:53No, this is not reality.
06:55This was what the Jordanian king had said in days after he met with President Trump,
07:02that he understood that Trump was putting down a challenge to the Arab world to come up with an alternative.
07:07The United States is not talking seriously about moving two million Palestinians out of Gaza and building a Riviera in the Gaza.
07:13This is not real.
07:14But when you look at or what you hear from coming out of Israel and Netanyahu's plans,
07:18it looks like he is trying to annex further parts of Gaza.
07:21Well, I don't think the Israelis want to annex Gaza.
07:23I think that they want to move the Palestinians out and to resettle Gaza without the burden of annexation.
07:29But this is fantasy.
07:30This is not real.
07:31This cannot be done.
07:32And not only cannot be done politically, it's also illegal international law.
07:37It's a war crime.
07:39Well, let's look at that.
07:40I mean, we've mentioned there the French president holding this forum,
07:43trying to push towards a two-state solution and acceptance of that.
07:46But it's coming very late.
07:48We're nearly 20 months into this war.
07:49And overall, the international reaction has been, well, mute.
07:52Yeah, I would say it's very late because it's 57 years after the Six Days War in 1967 when it should have been done then.
08:00We've been talking about a two-state solution in Israel and Palestine since 1947,
08:03when the United Nations partitioned the land into a Jewish state and an Arab state.
08:08So it's way too long.
08:09And it's certainly the time now for France to recognize the state of Palestine.
08:13I will comment that it won't change reality on the ground.
08:16But the big question is, how do we get Israel to recognize the Palestinian people's right?
08:20When there are 192 or 193 member states of the United Nations who recognize the state of Palestine
08:27and also recognize the state of Israel, Israel will be forced into a corner, pushed into a corner,
08:32and we'll have to recognize Palestine.
08:34The main challenge for the Palestinians is to understand that the Israeli people are not their enemy.
08:39The Israeli people are their solution.
08:41If they can convince the Israeli people that their existence as a state will not endanger their security,
08:47they will get much, much more support from the Israeli public to move in that direction.
08:51That's what needs to happen.
08:52It's wonderful if France, if the UK, if all the other OECD states recognize Palestine.
08:58That's not going to change the life of Palestinians.
09:01But nonetheless, the duplicity of talking about a two-state solution,
09:05while only recognizing one, has to come to an end.
09:07As we wait, though, for that to be put in place, I mean, what needs to happen in the more immediate term?
09:13We're seeing the UK put sanctions on two Israeli ministers for what they're doing in the West Bank,
09:18not just Gaza, but what else can the international government do?
09:21Well, I think that's a move in the right direction,
09:22but it's not only two ministers in the Israeli government that need to be sanctioned.
09:26The whole settlement movement needs to be sanctioned.
09:28There needs to be put limitations on...
09:31I'll give you an example.
09:31For example, if Israelis have visa-free access to the European Union,
09:36settlers are not living in the state of Israel.
09:38They're living in the occupied territory.
09:40Why do they enjoy visa-free access to the European Union?
09:43Shouldn't they have to fill out an internet form that designates where they live?
09:48And if they live in a settlement in the occupied territories,
09:50they shouldn't be allowed into France without some special designation and special visa?
09:55That's a simple thing that the European Union could do.
09:57If you consider settlements illegal, then why do you just label a product as being made in the Israeli settlements?
10:07Why are they allowed access to the European markets?
10:10If it's illegal, it's contraband.
10:13It shouldn't be entering the European markets whatsoever.
10:16So I think that there are more things that can be done.
10:18And politically, the government of Israel needs to be told by the international community
10:23that the time to end this conflict is now.
10:25This war in Gaza has been so traumatic for both people, so horrific in the kinds of things that have been done.
10:31The moral red lines that have been crossed by both sides,
10:33who have allowed themselves to do everything in this war, has to be ended.
10:38This has to be the last Israeli-Palestinian war.
10:41Meanwhile, you have had direct experience negotiating between Hamas and Israel.
10:46I mean, where do you see things going from here?
10:48Look, President Abbas, the old man Palestinian president of the Palestinian Authority,
10:54who's 90 years old in the 20th year of a four-year term, certainly lacks legitimacy within Palestine.
11:00But nonetheless, at the request of President Macron, he sent a letter yesterday detailing the Palestinian position.
11:06And it was very clear in President Abbas's letter to President Macron
11:09that the Palestinians should convene elections within a year.
11:13And at that time, political parties, which do not support the line of the PLO,
11:18which is the two-state solution, making peace with Israel, would not be allowed to run.
11:22So Hamas, as a political movement, would not be able to participate in those elections unless Hamas changes itself.
11:27If Hamas were to accept the existence of Israel, accept the PLO position of negotiations to the two-state solution,
11:34Hamas would no longer be Hamas.
11:36I think it's quite clear that the people in Gaza don't want Hamas anymore.
11:39A very small number of people in Gaza still support Hamas.
11:42The support for Hamas in the West Bank is waning.
11:45Hamas probably has more support amongst the Palestinian diaspora
11:49or so-called pro-Palestinian activists in the West than they actually do in Palestine.
11:54And that needs to be considered.
11:55When people call out the slogan,
11:57from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free,
11:59this is la-la land.
12:00This is not reality.
12:02Palestinians living in Palestine understand that they can't throw 7 million Israeli Jews into the sea.
12:06So I would suggest we start calling on, from the river to the sea, on two states we agree.
12:13That's a slogan that portends a much better future for the people of Israel and the people of Palestine.
12:18And very finally, we've spoke about what the international governments and authorities could do,
12:23but why do you think they've taken so long to react at all?
12:27We've seen the red lines, as you said.
12:28I think that Israel has played the anti-Semitism card,
12:31and that scares Europe in particular with the history of the Holocaust.
12:35It has to be very clear.
12:37Anti-Semitism is illegitimate at all times, in all places.
12:41Criticism of Israel is legitimate.
12:43Now, there are people who criticize Israel who are anti-Semitic as well.
12:46But the majority of criticism of Israel is completely legitimate.
12:50We Israelis protest every week against our government and say things against our government,
12:55and I think it's certainly legitimate to say that not only in Israel but also abroad.
12:59What kind of percentage do you think all the Israelis are against it, though?
13:03Because we get a lot of mixed reports.
13:04We almost get the impression that the majority were in favor of this war.
13:07Well, the majority were in favor of the war.
13:09There was a sense that revenge had to be taken,
13:11that Israel needed to re-establish its deterrence.
13:14It was very difficult after October 7th, when Israel failed to defend its border,
13:19and an organization like Hamas was able to capture part of Israeli territory.
13:22It was very frightening.
13:24And, of course, the 1,200 people were killed on that one day,
13:27the biggest tragedy that happened to the Jewish people since the Holocaust.
13:31But what has been done by Israel since then does not legitimize in any way
13:36the need for Israel to defend itself.
13:38And this has to be clear.
13:40A majority of Israelis want this war to end.
13:42And between 60% to 80% on any day that a survey is done want the war to end,
13:46want the hostages to come home.
13:48And since October 7th, every single poll that's been done in Israel
13:52by legitimate pollsters show that the Netanyahu coalition could not win an election.
13:57They don't get more than 50 votes out of the 120 in the parliament.
14:01So they could not form a coalition.
14:03That doesn't mean we have a leader out there who's inspirational
14:06and calling us for peace.
14:07But it will happen.
14:09And in terms of that moving towards the solid two-state solution,
14:13in terms of the popular support for that, where are we in Israel?
14:17It's very difficult to talk about a two-state solution,
14:19to talk about peace while we're still at war and people are still traumatized.
14:23But I think that when Israelis come out of this war and Palestinians come out of this war
14:28and look at each other and know that we can't keep doing this,
14:32the two-state solution is the only viable option on the table.
14:35With all the difficulties of Israeli settlements and problems of Jerusalem and refugees,
14:40they can all be resolved.
14:41There are solutions for them.
14:42Former Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and former Palestinian Foreign Minister Nasser Al-Qidwa,
14:47we, myself and my Palestinian partner, brought them together,
14:51and they together negotiated a plan, a kind of projection of what the future needs to look like.
14:59They're here in Paris now, and they've been going around the world,
15:01and in Israel and in Palestine, presenting their vision for peace, and it's real.
15:06People who say that living in peace is a fantasy are the ones who are wrong.
15:10Living without peace is the fantasy that we have to escape.
15:14We have to recognize that the time for peace is now.
15:17But will that be an uphill battle? Is it still the minority?
15:19It is an uphill battle. It will be an uphill battle.
15:21The biggest challenge is to convince Israelis and Palestinians that there are partners on the other side.
15:26And that's what we're trying to do here in Paris this Friday,
15:29is to demonstrate hundreds of Israelis and Palestinians who have flown to Paris
15:33to stand up together in public and say,
15:35we want peace, we support the two-state solution,
15:39we need more and more Israelis and Palestinians to be courageous and to stand up and say that.
15:43Because the majority of Israelis, the majority of Palestinians want peace,
15:47they just don't believe that there are partners on the other side.
15:49Okay. Mr. Gershon-Baskin, thanks so much for coming into the studio
15:53and giving us your insight here on France 24.
15:55Very much appreciated.
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