00:00and joining me now even as gaza once again reaches a tipping point is a very special guest
00:10israel's leading voice journalist author gideon levy columnist in haritz joins me appreciate
00:17you're joining us mr levy today israel has declared a fresh offensive ground offensive
00:24on gaza the defense minister has said gaza is burning but this comes also on a day when a u.n
00:29commission of inquiry report headed by a very respected judge has said there are reasonable
00:34grounds to conclude that israel is committing genocide in the palestinian areas reconcile these
00:41two conflicting thoughts coming out one side saying it's uh gaza is burning almost triumphantly
00:48even as the world body says israel is committing genocide sir
00:52they are not conflicting they are completing each other gaza is burning now for over two years
01:01and the burning of gaza is part of the genocide which was declared by this commission of the u.n
01:09no contradiction gaza is burning and now more than before what started tonight might might lead us
01:17to much worse scenes in gaza much more mass killing much more destruction more than we saw in the last
01:27two years and at the same time the conclusion that that's a genocide is just describing what is
01:33happening on the ground so you also concur that what is happening in gaza is a genocide that the
01:44conditions that palestinians are being put through are amounting to a genocide of the 21st century
01:51because i look at the numbers that have been cited in several reports 64 000 palestinians killed
01:57including over 18 000 children nearly 10 000 women according to gaza and health authorities life
02:04expectancy collapsing from 75 years to 45 in just one year you seem to also agree that what's happening
02:10is a genocide uh mr levy because that is a very very ominous word in today's times
02:16absolutely until a few weeks ago i refrained i didn't use this term i practically i was objecting
02:27of using this term the figures are not the only way to judge if it is a genocide or not above all it's
02:34about the intents and the intents became very clear because israel declares so israel declares that it wants
02:41to evacuate 1.3 million people who are right now in gaza city into the south putting them in a cage in a
02:52concentration camp all based on israeli declarations and then give two options to the poor people who
03:00will get to this horrible place either to leave the gaza street or to stay in the cage there is no way they
03:07can come back to their homes and to their land in other words this is ethnic cleansing if it is ethnic
03:13cleansing ethnic cleansing is the twin of of of genocide the genocide serves the ethnic cleansing
03:22and the mass killing that we saw systematically systematically israel is destructing systematically
03:29and is destroying this system systematically and israel is killing systematically this behaves like a
03:36genocide but would i be right mr levy in saying that your view would be a minority
03:43opinion today in israel that a majority of israelis believe the israelis believe this is a just war
03:48that this is uh what uh has followed because hamas uh carried out that terrible terror attack on
03:56october 7 2023 so most israelis will probably justify this particularly as long as the hostages are still
04:04held by hamas definitely and the best proof is the fact that most of the soldiers go recruit themselves
04:13and commit this war commit this mass killing there's very little very few israelis who refuse to do so
04:22if there is a shift in in recent weeks i don't want to underestimate it there is growing criticism
04:29and growing question marks about what israel is doing there and what is the goal and what are the means
04:36but still the fact is that there is not a real opposition to the to the genocide there is an opposition to the war
04:46there is a great opposition to netanyahu there is a very strong movement for releasing the hostages
04:53but i hear very little concern about the fate of the people of gaza which should be right now
05:01the first priority because they are facing the biggest catastrophe
05:10but is there an understanding among israelis about what exactly is happening on the ground the extent of
05:16destruction the damage the human suffering surely israel cannot be immune to that particularly the israeli
05:23people who in the last century themselves were victims of this kind of action by uh hitler's uh by hitler's
05:32army in the second world war is there an understanding or is there just so much of hatred now on both sides
05:38that there is no understanding or compassion left there's very little left very very little from the beginning
05:47with the unbelievable shameful collaboration of the israeli media which avoids describing what's going
05:58on in gaza and most of the israelis are not exposed to the scene and to the images of gaza they know that
06:05something horrible is taking place there but any indian saw more than any average israeli of what is happening
06:14one hour away from our homes in gaza gaza is one hour one one and a half hour drive from tel avil
06:21so the media doesn't report about it because they know that most of the israelis don't
06:26want to know what's going on there and this vicious circle creates a situation which
06:33most of the israelis not all of them i emphasize not all of them but most of the israelis care
06:40very little about gaza because they feel that gaza deserves this horrible punishment because of the
06:477th of october
06:52and and from your vantage point how do you see the world looking at it there seems to be across
06:57the world also either powerlessness or a turning a blind eye in a way to the suffering the united
07:05nations issues these statements from uh every now and then human rights group issue statements but
07:11it doesn't seem to result in any collective action that will actually stop the war it almost seems
07:19as if the world has given up mr levy the world didn't give up because the world didn't try
07:25the world they paid some lip services namely condemnation recognition of a palestinian state
07:36which is farer than ever becoming a real real state and no measures or almost no measures it is true
07:46that the atmosphere in europe became very anti-israeli but the governments are very cautious in taking
07:54measures the same governments which were very easy with taking measures against russia after invading
08:01cremeier are very cautious in taking any measures against israel and for most of the israelis again
08:09the world is only one country namely the united states united states is still supporting israel
08:17israel totally blindly and automatically supports it internationally the trump administration hugs
08:26israel supplies it and prevent any kind of measures from other countries against israel so the israelis
08:34still feel in a way safe but everyone understand that there is a very very dark cloud about our heads
08:43which is approaching israel very quickly now
08:51but but in the circumstances then where does this latest ground offensive take this war because
08:57israel is asking all palestinian civilians to leave one million of them to leave gaza city many of them
09:03children again on the other hand you've got a donald trump warning hamas do not use the hostages
09:08as human shield i mean are we going to see the catastrophe escalate even further because of the
09:15nature of these ground defenses and the comments that are now coming out absolutely and therefore it is
09:22such an emergency time now i don't see donald trump stopping israel and there is no one else to stop israel
09:31it all depends on donald trump and he doesn't show any signs that he's going to stop israel
09:37and if he doesn't stop israel he could stop it by the way through one phone call within hours he could
09:44stop the war but he doesn't do it and he knows why i don't i i have no explanation for this because the
09:51united states is going to pay price for it but he continues to support israel and courage israel even
09:59to go for this operation and there is no one else to stop israel so as long as donald trump
10:06will not change his policy toward israel his attitude toward israel this will go on and become worse and
10:12worse and worse
10:17i i want to for just a moment turn to where we started off the allegations now of genocide or
10:23the statement made by that u.n commission saying that israel is uh accusing israel of genocide israel in
10:29turn says it's a fake uh it's a fake report they say we've given 1.6 million aid packages have been
10:36distributed 106 million meals have reached civilians they claim that they are making a distinction between
10:43hamas and the civilians of uh of the palestinian areas does that hold any water anymore according to you
10:51or uh are these distinctions simply non-existent anymore non-existent anymore i guess that those
10:59propaganda persons who try to spread it don't believe in it by themselves i mean look at the effects
11:06on the ground look at the starvation look at the figures of people dying out of starvation the famine
11:14on a daily basis that's ridiculous the fact that israel has sent some aid to gaza
11:22is meaningless because the fact is people are starving and people are hungry for two years now
11:29so that's ridiculous israel is now committing a crime in gaza and i don't think that anyone serious
11:36in the world has any doubts about what what then mr levy is the solution from what i hear from you
11:47there's only despair at the moment do you see any solution if hamas for example tomorrow were to release
11:53the hostages would the war come to an end or will netanyahu now continue to prosecute this war
11:59and eventually end up occupying gaza and push every palestinian out of the of the area is there a
12:06solution that you see any light at the end of this very dark tunnel there's only one way to stop it as
12:14i said and this way the keys to this way are in the hands of one person namely donald trump as long as
12:23donald trump will do nothing this will continue and nothing will stop israel
12:34what what would your message then mr levy be for countries like india which have built strong ties
12:40with israel but had a traditional uh relationship of support for the palestinian state and the
12:47palestinian cause what would your message be to countries like india which perhaps have over the
12:53last two years literally sat on the fence i think the world and india including obviously india maybe
13:04more than many other countries knows very well and understands very well what is the role of the
13:11international community right now the role is to save the remains of gaza and for saving this
13:20any means is legitimate because we are speaking about real catastrophe and therefore it's not for
13:28me to tell india what to do remember what you have done toward the apartheid system in south africa
13:36this case right now is much worse and much more urgent because in south africa there was no
13:43genocide or mass killing in this scale like here and mass destruction remember south africa remember your
13:50policy tout south africa and look at the facts on the ground and you know everyone with his unconscious
13:58should ask himself what is he ready to do in order to save 2.3 helpless 2.3 million helpless people
14:09who have no one to protect them no one except of the international community
14:20but there are those who are listening to you today mr levy in this country who will say
14:24what about hamas should hamas be seen as a terror group and therefore until hamas gives up this path
14:31of violence israel will continue with its war there are enough such voices in india as well who will echo
14:37what many israelis as you said are also saying that this is in a way a just war what will you tell
14:42them hamas should be fought but this fight this war is not against hamas it's it's against any human
14:51human being in the gaza strip any human being in the gaza strip is now exposed to catastrophe no matter
15:00if he is hamas or is not and most of the people of the gaza strip are not militants of hamas this is
15:09the minority the small minority and among them most of them were already killed it has nothing to do with
15:16hamas right now it has to do with the plan of ethnic cleansing in gaza and this must be stopped
15:29so can i in conclusion say that gideon levy is saying that what we have seen unfolding now in gaza
15:36marks the complete death of morality and conscience in in in the manner in which
15:44this war is being conducted that what we are seeing in your view and you've said this in harits
15:50i know in one of your columns is little more than war crimes that we are seeing war crimes taking in
15:57place in front of us and the world is silent or turning its face away which marks the collapse
16:03of morality and a moral vacuum would i be right in saying that
16:07i don't know any other way to describe it except of what you just mentioned now there is no other way to
16:17describe it we can close our eyes we can close our ears we can close our conscience but the facts on the
16:27ground are screaming and they are screaming that something terrible happens in gaza and only the
16:34the international community is there to protect gaza and until now unfortunately the international
16:41community is doing very little much too little without any kind of effect until now israel totally ignores
16:51all the signals of the world all the resolutions all the condemnations are totally ineffective israel
16:58continues as you can see on the ground
17:05gideon levy for joining me uh and speaking so eloquently thank you so much i just want to say
17:11you recently wrote in harits israel is covering its face out of shame perhaps or guilt or fear
17:17fear and presumably out of all three the new trend is for officers to be interviewed on television
17:24to cover their faces with black hoods the army of the people has become the army of the hoods those
17:31are very strong words but i presume you stand by them at this crucial juncture am i correct
17:38totally and my face is not masked so i stand here and say what i think nothing less and nothing more
17:46than this
17:52okay gideon levy for joining us here on india today thank you so much thank you for having me
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