00:00Now this comes as a team of independent experts from the UN Human Rights Council has announced that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza.
00:08The findings by the three-member team are the latest accusations of genocide against Netanyahu's government.
00:15At least 60,000 people have been killed in the almost two years since the wall broke out, half of them women and children.
00:23Now in the moment I'll be talking to our international affairs desk editor James Andre.
00:30But first let me cross to London to speak to Professor Yossi Meckleburg, a senior fellow at Chatham House.
00:37Professor Meckleburg, thank you for your time.
00:40With Israel's massive ground incursion into Gaza City now underway, we know that the Israeli army chief has told a parliamentary committee
00:49he's not being given any clear guidance on what is next.
00:54So what level of discord now exists within the IDF over the war in Gaza?
01:01Good afternoon, thank you for having me.
01:04I think from the first time that this decision, this proposal to enter into Gaza City was put on the cabinet table,
01:14the chief of staff, El Zamir, was against it.
01:17He was against it because he believes first and foremost it won't bring the hostages back.
01:23He thinks that it involves an army that has been military that has been two years,
01:29constant war on multi-front, seven fronts at least.
01:33There is fatigue which creeps into the military, into urban warfare, which is also the most difficult.
01:41And as a result of it, it might also end in committing potentially more war crimes.
01:50And without understanding what is the strategy behind it, how it's going to advance Israeli political aims.
01:59There appears to be no clear exit strategy, does there?
02:03No, there is no exit strategy because from the beginning, the main priority was eliminating Hamas.
02:12Then added also the releasing of the hostages.
02:15But eliminating Hamas, it's a slogan, it's a mantra.
02:21What does it mean?
02:22Defeating it to a point that you can negotiate with some political arrangement,
02:27or even, as even the Arab League said, Hamas won't play a role in governing Gaza in the future.
02:35Or what more and more seems to be the case is, you know, after the airstrike in Doha,
02:43that it means literally basically eliminating almost every single member of Hamas.
02:49If this is the aim right now, this is a war that will never end.
02:53And more and more we see that actually the aim is more than to save the hostages,
02:58it's to save Netanyahu and Netanyahu's government,
03:01because he doesn't want the war to end.
03:05It will lead to investigation into his capability into October 7, 2023.
03:11It will probably lead to full election.
03:14So he will continue the war as long as it suits his political needs.
03:19Let me just pause there for a moment, Yossi,
03:22as we listen to what the families of those remaining hostages in Gaza,
03:26who are now setting up camp in front of the Prime Minister's residence in Jerusalem.
03:31This is what they had to tell reporters earlier.
03:35We heard the bombs are getting stronger all over Gaza.
03:41Our children are there.
03:44The Prime Minister, Netanyahu, instead of saving our children, is bombing them.
03:51We arrived late last night to send a clear and straight message to the government
03:58and, of course, the Prime Minister of Israel.
04:01We will not leave this place until you give us all our loved ones back.
04:06If you don't stop the war now and bring back all the hostages,
04:10you will be responsible for the death and the disappearance
04:13of all the remaining hostages, dead and alive.
04:16And listening to those responses is Professor Yossi Mekkelberg from Chattern House in London.
04:23Yossi, how much actual support is there in Israel for this incursion into Gaza City?
04:30I think if you look, most Israelis support actually what we just heard
04:35from the families of the hostages for many months.
04:38They say, for now, the priority should be reaching a deal
04:42that will see the hostages returning home, not continuing the war.
04:48It's not that Israelis, if you look at the opinion polls,
04:51are against defeating Hamas.
04:54Definitely don't want to see Hamas play a role in future Palestinian government.
05:00But for them, the priority, and they say it week after week
05:03when they protest, thousands of them protest in the streets,
05:07they want to see the hostages back.
05:09This is also the military, because this is part of the ethos of the Israeli society.
05:15You don't leave an injured person, a soldier, a civilian, in the battlefield,
05:21and you don't leave hostages in captivity, definitely not for two years.
05:27And Netanyahu is the first prime minister to completely ignore that.
05:32And this is the same prime minister, by the way,
05:35that released more than 1,000 Palestinian prisoners
05:39for one Israeli soldier that was taken captive 20 years ago.
05:46Yossi, I just want to talk about this other element,
05:50which is last night Prime Minister Netanyahu was addressing a conference
05:53where he admitted Israel is facing increasing isolation on the world stage
05:58and will have to become more self-reliant in the years to come.
06:01He said the nation would have to be a super Sparta,
06:05in apparent reference to the isolationist and warrior policies
06:09pursued by the ancient Greek city-state.
06:12And, of course, this comes as mounting international pressure and restrictions
06:16threaten Israel's access to global trade of weapons imports.
06:20Let's just hear what he told the conference.
06:22Western Europe has large Islamist minorities.
06:30They're vocal.
06:32Many of them are politically motivated.
06:34They align with Hamas.
06:36They align with Iran.
06:38They pressure the governments of Western Europe,
06:41many of whom are kindly disposed to Israel,
06:44but they see that they're being overtaken, really,
06:47by campaigns of violent protest and constant intimidation.
06:54And so they fall into this siege.
06:58And we can break this siege.
07:00With me is Professor Meckleberg from Chatham House in London.
07:05The Tel Aviv Stock Exchange plummeted in the wake of those comments.
07:09How is the Prime Minister's statements landing with Israel
07:12that the country has to prepare to become effectively a pariah state,
07:18keeping in mind it's already a very polarised society?
07:23You're right.
07:24I mean, this was quite a, between bizarre and scary speech by Netanyahu.
07:29He's developing again in order for him to stay in power.
07:33In our country, it's a new narrative.
07:35This narrative, you know, for months he would say,
07:38oh, we're just one step ahead from total victory that hasn't happened.
07:43So he tried to increase the pressure, as we see in Gaza City.
07:48Then he said, oh, Israel will never be in a better political situation,
07:53an among nation.
07:54And what he sees, exactly the opposite happened.
07:57He pushes Israel into becoming a pariah state.
08:00Even what he wants to achieve,
08:02that's preventing recognition of Palestinian state,
08:05more and more countries are actually going to recognise
08:09that without the war,
08:10probably would not have recognised Palestinian state
08:12without the peace agreement.
08:14And, you know, if you look at the history of Sparta,
08:18and I don't know what is a super Sparta,
08:20it didn't, this is a country that,
08:23or a political entity that didn't last for very long.
08:26So this is the idea,
08:27a country that was,
08:29actually its achievements,
08:31its success was because it was a liberal democracy,
08:34because it was close to the most development countries in the world
08:39and even rich peace agreements and normalisation
08:42with other countries in the Middle East.
08:44And all of this is going to be reversed
08:46as a result of a prime minister
08:48that pushed Israel into complete isolation.
08:53One final element, Yossi,
08:55because I know you have to rush off,
08:57but in the meantime,
08:58the US Secretary of State, Marco Rubio,
09:00left Israel.
09:01He flew directly to Qatar.
09:02His visit, obviously,
09:04coming one week after that attack by Israel
09:07on Hamas' political leaders inside the Emirate.
09:11Of course, it drew widespread condemnation.
09:15Let's just take a listen to what Rubio told reporters
09:18as he arrived in Qatar.
09:19We have a very short window of time
09:23in which a deal could happen.
09:25We don't have months anymore
09:26and we probably have days and maybe a few weeks.
09:29So it's a key moment.
09:31If any country in the world can help mediate it,
09:33Qatar is the one.
09:34They're the ones that can do it.
09:35Now, I don't know if they can after what happened,
09:37but I think they could.
09:38If anyone can, they can.
09:40Yossi, in the wake of that strike on Qatar,
09:42just how much damage has Israel done
09:45with the populations of neighbouring Arab countries
09:48that were planning to increase ties with Israel?
09:53We saw yesterday, the summit in Doha,
09:57the old out-condemnation of Israel.
10:00Someone like the president of Egypt, Assisi,
10:03that had close relations with Israel,
10:06talks about putting under danger a peace agreement,
10:10a peace agreement that was signed in 1979
10:13and withheld many times and many pressures,
10:17the normalisation with the UAE and Bahrain.
10:20This kind of behaviour by the current Israeli government
10:25makes many countries see Israel
10:28as the most destabilising force right now in the Middle East,
10:32when a country attacks thousands of kilometres away from home,
10:37a country which is not an enemy country,
10:39a country that is mediated a ceasefire,
10:43a country that was never an attack,
10:45coming from, originated from its own soil,
10:47and trying to kill the negotiating team of Hamas
10:52that could lead to a ceasefire agreement,
10:58of course, across the region.
11:01As themselves, this is a rational, logical government
11:06that they can do business with.
11:08Finally, just how far do you think the US is ready
11:12to support Netanyahu on its Gaza military plans?
11:16And won't that hurt its own relationship
11:19with its Middle East allies?
11:22This is a great question, which is very difficult to answer,
11:26because right now, Netanyahu's government behaviour
11:30harms also US interests.
11:33In Qatar, there's the biggest US base outside the United States.
11:40Israel apparently doesn't consult the United States,
11:43doesn't consult Washington,
11:45taking such a measure against an ally.
11:48And in this sense, you really ask yourself the question,
11:51why the United States support it?
11:53We saw before Trump was inaugurated,
11:56Israel was the one that pushed to a ceasefire,
11:58but you're also allowed for Israel to violate back in March
12:02the ceasefire, cause the starvation there
12:05by stopping humanitarian aid,
12:08and doesn't stop what's happening right now,
12:11the assault on Gaza.
12:13So this question, I think, should be asked,
12:16but should be asked, you know, people close to Trump,
12:19Trump himself, why he allows this to happen,
12:21and how does it serve American interest?
12:24Because I don't see this as, in any shape or form,
12:28serves US national interest.
12:30Professor Yossi Mecklenberg,
12:32a senior fellow at Chatham House in London,
12:34thank you so much again for your time.
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