00:00Well, we start with that top story where at least 85 more people have been killed by Israeli forces in Gaza on Tuesday alone,
00:19with Israel only saying it was going to further intensify its attacks, telling besieged Palestinians in Gaza City to flee.
00:26But there is nowhere to go. Israeli bombings and killings reported across the Strip, including in the areas that the Israeli army is telling people to seek shelter.
00:35As well as the airstrikes, Palestinians also still being killed through starvation as the Israeli blockade on food and vital supplies continues.
00:43At least 60,000 Israeli reservists, meanwhile, were called up to the military as part of a push to fully capture Gaza City,
00:51a city already destroyed with markets, schools, hospitals reduced to rubble.
00:56Well, recognising what it said was systematic and widespread crimes against humanity, indiscriminate and deliberate attacks against civilians,
01:03the International Association of Genocide Scholars says Israel's war on Gaza is genocide, that it meets the legal definition of the crime.
01:11Despite the pictures and reports of the destruction and the death toll of over 63,000 Palestinians,
01:17that word has nonetheless been debated, no longer for this international body.
01:22Well, we can speak to the president of it now to get more insight on it all.
01:26Melanie O'Brien, thank you so much for joining us.
01:29Can you talk us through, firstly, how this decision was reached?
01:32How did your association study the facts?
01:35Thank you for having me to talk about the resolution.
01:40The International Association of Genocide Scholars welcomes resolutions to be submitted by any members of the association.
01:48That resolution will then go through a rigorous and extensive peer review process from three separate committees before it goes out to vote to our membership.
01:58Our membership then vote, and in the case of this resolution, the vast majority of those who voted in this vote, voted in favour of the resolution declaring that Israel's policies and actions in Gaza amount to war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide.
02:15And what sources did you have in order to come to that decision?
02:19What could people study when it comes to that war?
02:21The resolution itself, just to make clear for people, it's not a report in itself.
02:28It's a three-page document, but it was the result of extensive research, and it does include many references to reports that are in themselves extensive, produced by reliable and consistently well-known sources on the issue of human rights in the occupied Palestine territories,
02:48including UN entities and non-governmental organizations, including an Israeli non-governmental organization as well.
02:56Now, it is rare, is it not, or is it just maybe perhaps ignorance on my part, but it's rare to speak out, notably with the percentage of people that agreed in this case to calling something a genocide.
03:08Can you put the significance into context for us?
03:11So, as an association, we have passed a number of resolutions in the past.
03:16Some of those are about historical genocides, such as the Kurdish genocide or the Armenian genocide, but other ones we have passed on current affairs, including, for example, the genocide of the Uyghurs in China or the genocide of the Rohingya in Myanmar.
03:32So, it is an association that is very active with members who are engaged, not just in historical research, but also very much involved in current-day advocacy and activism.
03:45You know, we're scholars, but we also see our role as very important in terms of thinking about the practice of genocide prevention, education and punishment.
03:55So, talk us through the crimes that lead to it being validated or legally defining it as a genocide.
04:04So, the definition of genocide is found in the Genocide Convention, which defines genocide as a list of crimes that are committed with the intent to destroy in whole or in part.
04:16So, it doesn't have to be the entire population, and that group that is intended to be destroyed has to be a national, ethnical, racial or religious group.
04:27And the crimes that are listed, and some of which, most of which we see happening in Gaza at the moment, include killing people of that group, causing them serious bodily or mental harm, inflicting conditions of life designed to bring about their physical destruction,
04:42which I think is one of the key things that people have been focusing on, in terms of thinking about starvation, the lack of access to health care, water, food and shelter.
04:53And also, another crime that we are seeing is actions designed to prevent births.
04:58So, we're seeing attacks on the health care system, including fertility clinics and maternity wards.
05:03So, now that there is the legal backing, if you like, to say that it is genocide, does this give world leaders more security to finally act when it comes to this war on Gaza?
05:17I do want to say that our resolution is not a legal document.
05:21It's a resolution passed by an association of genocide scholars.
05:25But what I think is really important about it is that our association is made up of experts in the field.
05:32So, predominantly academics who work extensively on genocide studies, but also we do have some members that come from different areas,
05:39such as policy makers or non-governmental organisations or legal professionals,
05:44every one of whom in some way works in practice on genocide prevention, education or punishment.
05:51And in that regard, I think that this should be useful for governments and that the resolution can be used as a tool to lobby,
05:59to advocate to governments, to recognise that what is happening on the ground is genocide.
06:04Although, at the same time, I also want to reiterate that we also called it war crimes and crimes against humanity.
06:11So, all of the crimes being committed should be called out by states.
06:16Of course, Israel refutes the word genocide.
06:18It refutes the fact that it's committing war crimes.
06:21It claims self-defence.
06:23I mean, what does your association make of Israel's excuse that there's a few terrorists hiding out among the tens of thousands of civilians being killed?
06:33So, speaking as an expert in international law, yes, there is a right to self-defence under international law.
06:41And certainly, you know, if you and I were having this conversation on the 8th or 9th of October 2023, for example,
06:47I would certainly be saying, yes, the right to self-defence is there.
06:52But that does not mean the right to self-defence is unlimited.
06:55It does have restrictions.
06:57And those restrictions include, for example, that the response must be proportionate.
07:03And the response we are seeing is no longer proportionate with the killing of tens of thousands of civilians
07:08and the near complete destruction of the entirety of Gaza.
07:12It also, the response also must be according to military necessity, which, again, using the same reasons we are no longer seeing.
07:22So, it's really important to acknowledge that even the right to self-defence has limitations.
07:28And also to remember that there is absolutely no justification, no legal reasoning for the commission of war crimes, crimes against humanity or genocide.
07:38Melanie O'Brien, President of the International Association of Genocide Scholars, thanks so much for taking time out and speaking to us here on France 24.
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