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The Briefing with Jen Psaki – 8/29/25 | 9PM
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00:00Welcome back to a special two-hour edition of The Briefing, where we are following the
00:08breaking news that a federal appeals court has ruled almost all of Donald Trump's tariffs are
00:13illegal. Trump imposed the vast majority of his tariffs under a law that allows the president
00:17to regulate international commerce during a national emergency. But the courts found that
00:22the law does not grant the president the authority to impose sweeping tariffs against nearly every
00:27country on the planet. No kidding. And you do not have to be an expert in international trade law.
00:31I am not to see the logic of that decision. I mean, for one thing, the national emergency Trump
00:36says justified his tariffs keeps changing. I mean, one day he says it's about stopping fentanyl
00:40trafficking. The next day he says it's about other countries ripping us off. And the next day he says
00:45it's because he doesn't like how other countries are treating his authoritarian buddies. The idea
00:51that there is some serious national emergency empowering the president to tariff the whole
00:54world has always been an obvious pretext for Trump to do whatever the heck he wants to do.
01:01And that's sort of been a theme with Trump lately, or for some time, I should say. I mean,
01:05today the Trump administration was in court trying to defend Trump's decision to fire a member of the
01:09Federal Reserve Board, something he is also not allowed to do. Trump claimed he could take that
01:15unprecedented step because of unproven allegations that the Federal Reserve Board member committed
01:20mortgage fraud. But that too was an obvious pretext, as lawyers for that fired official
01:26argued in court today. Trump has also taken over Washington, D.C. on the grounds that despite the
01:31city's falling crime rate, D.C. is facing some sort of crime emergency. That too was an obvious
01:37pretext. So obvious, in fact, that the Trump administration has actually failed not one,
01:42not two, but three separate times to get grand juries made up of D.C. residents to indict the people
01:48they have arrested as part of their big old crime crackdown. I mean, every day this administration
01:54wakes up and just invents a reason for doing whatever they want. But the American judicial
01:58system may finally be waking up to that fact, and that is a good sign. Joining me now is Ian Bassin,
02:04co-founder and executive director of the group Protect Democracy, which tracks authoritarian threats.
02:09He wrote this incredible piece recently as well, which we will also tweet out. And Christy Greenberg,
02:14former federal prosecutor and MSNBC legal analyst. Thank you both for being here. Ian, let me just
02:20start by asking you a big picture question here. Do you think that this ruling from the appeals court
02:25on tariffs today is a sign that the courts may finally be saying, actually, this guy can't just
02:31do whatever he wants? I mean, they've been saying that to some degree, but this feels like that. But
02:35what do you think? Well, I wouldn't get our hopes up too much. What we've seen recently is that lower
02:41courts, the district courts and the appeals courts have really done their job in upholding the role
02:46of the judiciary to say what the law is. But the Supreme Court, at a rather unprecedented rate,
02:52has been siding with the administration over and over again in cases that seem wildly like they
02:57should have gone the other way. I don't expect that giant trend to change course. But in this case,
03:03I know you're looking for it, Jen. There is a little bit of hope, because I want to read you
03:07a line that was issued by a notable justice recently. And that line said this. Rule by
03:14indefinite emergency edict risks leading all of us with a shell of a democracy and civil liberties
03:21justice hollow. That was written just a few years ago by Justice Neil Gorsuch. So I think in this
03:27particular case, the opponents to Trump's global taxes are actually standing on not just solid ground,
03:33but solid ground that even this Supreme Court might stand on as well.
03:38I mean, and of course, you have a quote from Neil Gorsuch in your pocket. It just doesn't
03:42surprise me at all. Let me ask you, Christy. Don't leave home with that one. We love nerds here.
03:49OK, Christy, I mean, to Ian's point, I mean, the conservative majority in the Supreme Court is
03:53definitely let Trump get away with a whole lot of things. But all of these justices come out of a
03:58conservative legal tradition that has not exactly made defending sweeping tariffs its mission. So
04:04I know we can't predict, but like what what do you think? I mean, is there a chance they could
04:08rule against him on this? I mean, there's always a chance, but I mean, normally you would look at a
04:16conservative majority and they are very focused on what is the text of the statute say? And we're not
04:21going to try to do too much to, you know, have new interpretations. The text says what it says.
04:27And here are the statutes that Trump is relying on, the International Economic Emergency Powers Act.
04:33It gives the president authority to take certain actions if he declares a national emergency.
04:39But tariffs aren't one of them. You know, there are a number of different things that the act says
04:46that the president can. Tariffs aren't listed there. And so if you were just looking at the text,
04:52it seems really unlikely that Congress intended in enacting this to depart from these past practices
04:58and grant this president unlimited authority to impose tariffs, that there's just no support in
05:03that from the history and from the text. So if the conservative majority does what it says and looks at
05:09the text, looks at the history, they should rule against Trump. But we have seen that they tend to find
05:16ways because they have a very expansive view of the president's power generally to find ways to rule
05:22in his favor. So I can't say I'm optimistic. They do also like mealy middle grounds. I'll call them.
05:29That's not a legal term, but there's a little mealy middle grounding that sometimes happens.
05:34Well, let me ask you about something else. There's a whole lot of power grabbing happening these days.
05:38So Ian, let me ask you about another one of these, because the issue of pretext came up a lot today
05:43in the hearing for Federal Reserve Board Governor Lisa Cook. And the judge seemed reluctant to weigh
05:48in on whether the mortgage fraud allegations are or not a pretext for her firing, but suggested that
05:55it might be relevant in determining Trump's motivation. How do courts look? There's not exactly
06:02precedent for this sort of stuff, but how do courts look at that kind of thing? How does the law look at
06:05this kind of stuff? Yeah, the courts don't have the best technical ways to get at the motivation
06:11of individual government thinkers. And there's a lot of debate about to what extent they should do
06:16that. But there's also another simple legal concept called common sense, right? You know,
06:22judges and justices, they're human beings, too. Sometimes it doesn't appear that they are,
06:25but actually, I know on good authority that they are. And if you just have simple common sense
06:30and you look at what's going on right now, big picture, right? Donald Trump is using the full
06:37force of the federal government to do exactly what he said he was going to do, enact revenge on people
06:43he perceives as his opponents, right? So he's alleging mortgage fraud against Adam Schiff, against
06:50Tish James, now against the one swing vote on the Federal Reserve to give them the power to control it,
06:56which he's already been talking about doing even before these allegations got floated.
07:01So many elected Republicans out there is the Federal Housing Finance Authority investigating for
07:07mortgage fraud doesn't look like too many, right? So it's just a little bit of common sense here about
07:13what's going on. And that doesn't require a law degree to figure out. I love that common sense could
07:18actually be a driver here. That gives me like some hope in my soul. The other thing gives me a little
07:24hope, Christy. I know we're jumping around here, but there's a lot of legal news today. So I'm just
07:28so happy to have you both here. I want to get your reaction to the news that D.C. U.S. Attorney Janine
07:33Pirro has failed three times to secure an indictment from a grand jury against D.C. protesters. I mean,
07:38as I understand it, but you can explain it better to all of us. Getting an indictment is supposed to
07:42be not easy, but maybe easier than it seems right now for them, at least much easier than getting a
07:48verdict. What does that say about her and about, I don't know if it's the mood of D.C. residents or
07:54if it's the weakness of their case? I mean, how do you read it?
07:58Yeah, look, in certain cases, it sounds like there was overcharging. No one is saying that DOJ should
08:04condone anyone throwing anything at a federal agent or spitting at a federal agent. But where the
08:11contact is relatively minor, nobody gets hurt, there are no injuries. Generally, you're firmly in
08:16misdemeanor territory. And the fact that they keep escalating everything and making it a felony,
08:22that is notable. And clearly, the grand jurors have said, no, no, you've gone too far. And every
08:31day you see Janine Pirro making these videos from her office, highlighting the work of the public safety
08:37surge. And I watch these videos. I'm like, where are the murder cases? Where are the gang cases?
08:43Where are the rape cases? I mean, she's devoting a video to a Subway sandwich thrower. And, you know,
08:49it's kind of, you know, if you're spending your time as the U.S. attorney taking selfies at barbecues
08:55and pizza lunches and making videos, like, you're not exactly painting a picture of a national crime
09:00emergency here. And I think that, you know, we've heard Donald Trump say the people of D.C. want the
09:06National Guard. They want the people there. And I think these grand jurors are sending a very
09:12different message saying, look, we're looking at this conduct and we're actually not going to
09:17necessarily hold people accountable because we think you're going too far. You know, we heard from
09:23a whistleblower that Emil Bovee told prosecutors they should consider telling the courts FU. This is
09:29kind of the grand jurors, the people of D.C. telling DOJ FU. I'd also note that this office is down 90
09:37prosecutors. A third of their career staff have left. Investigators have left. Paralegals have left.
09:46So, again, the prosecutors are also kind of saying FU to this DOJ. Maybe less time taking selfies,
09:54more time hiring prosecutors and investigators who know how to properly charge a case.
09:59That's very good advice. Pragmatic advice, I'm going to call it. Ian, let me ask you. I wanted to
10:05spend more time talking about this, but there's so much news today. You wrote this great piece,
10:10The Hard Won Hope of the Long Defeat. And there's a lot in here, but there's a line I just wanted to
10:16read because it just stuck with me because it's how I'm feeling. But it's not just the individual
10:21threats that weigh on us. It's the sheer volume. The Autocrat's Playbook isn't just about a single
10:25act of repression. It's about creating a dozen crises at once. This is not incompetence. It's
10:32a strategy. There's a lot you talk about in this piece about learning from history, but this hit me
10:38because I feel like there's just a sheer exhaustion right now and a sheer feeling like whack-a-mole of
10:43all of the things that are happening. What can we learn from history to help us deal with this
10:49moment or even just know what's coming to know what we have to deal with?
10:54Well, you know, I wrote this piece because I think we've had a lot of dark weeks in sort of this rise
10:59of autocracy under Donald Trump. And I think this has been one of the darkest where it has just seemed
11:03like the strategy that he has deployed of flood the zone, of emergencies made up and crises all at
11:09once in order to seize and consolidate power reached kind of an apex this week. And it felt quite bleak
11:15on a lot of fronts. And I think I went back to history, to all of the prior pro-democracy and
11:22pro-freedom movements, whether it was the Solidarity Movement in Poland or the African National Congress
11:28in South Africa or the Civil Rights Movement here in the United States, the Marriage Equality Movement
11:32here in the United States. And they all had dark midnights. They all had moments when things seemed
11:37bleak. And it was in those moments that the leaders said, we still have to do the right thing now.
11:43We have to hold on to truth. We have to hold on to justice. It's a moral imperative. And if we do
11:49that now, it plants the seeds for the victories of the future. And sometimes those victories take
11:54a long time to come. But in other times, the winds shift immediately and the victories come quickly.
12:00And our job is to hoist the sails now. And I think it gives us something to hold on to. We are not the
12:05first who have faced dark moments like this. We will not be the last. And the world will keep on
12:10turning. The dawn will come. And it's our job to just stay in the fight.
12:14I mean, put that in my veins. We all have to hear that going into Labor Day weekend. Ian Bassin,
12:19Christy Greenberg, thank you both so much for being here with me tonight.
12:22Okay, we're going to take a quick break. After that, we're going to talk about how Donald Trump
12:26has gutted FEMA. And now current and former officials at the agency are sounding the alarm.
12:31We'll talk about what this all means for disaster response, what people are doing about it when we
12:35come back.
12:36I think we're going to recommend that FEMA go away.
12:42If we do get rid of FEMA, which we should, it's very expensive, doesn't work.
12:45We want to wean off of FEMA and we want to bring it down to the state level.
12:50So obviously, Donald Trump has made no secret at all of his desire to ultimately get rid of FEMA.
12:56But in the meantime, his administration is doing everything possible to destroy the agency from
13:01within. Trump is not only trying to divert millions of dollars from the agency to pay for
13:06his immigration agenda, but he has also diverted FEMA employees themselves, reassigning them to work
13:11for ICE. And that's not to mention that Trump's handpicked FEMA director doesn't seem to have any
13:16interest in the job his agency actually does. That's why more than 180 current and former FEMA
13:22officials released a scathing letter this week blasting the Trump administration for gutting
13:26the agency responsible for disaster relief, writing, quote, FEMA has been under the leadership
13:31of individuals lacking legal qualification, Senate approval and the demonstrated background
13:36required of a FEMA administrator. Our shared commitment to our country compel us to warn
13:41Congress and the American people of the cascading effects of decisions made by the current
13:45administration. And an apparent act of retaliation, about 30 of the current FEMA officials who put
13:50their names on that letter received emails on Tuesday night saying they had been placed on paid
13:55administrative leave effective immediately. That includes two FEMA workers, by the way, who helped
14:00respond to the catastrophic floods that swept through central Texas in July. So instead of preparing
14:06for disasters, which is what they are supposed to be doing, the Trump administration is punishing
14:10those who are raising the alarm about how unprepared we are. Joining me now is James Stroud. He is a
14:16statistician for FEMA who was just recently placed on leave. James, thank you so much for being here
14:22with me. You signed this letter along with 179, I suppose, of your colleagues. Tell us why you signed it.
14:30Hi, Jen. Thank you for having me. First, I want to say that I'm speaking as an individual. I'm not
14:37representing FEMA in any capacity. I signed the letter because I think catastrophic damage is happening
14:46to FEMA. And I joined this agency to help people on the worst days of their lives. And what I've seen
14:54this year is horrifying and reckless and irresponsible. And it seemed like the only thing
15:01that I could do to sign this. We have been reporting on this, as so many people have, about
15:08this is an agency that, as you said, people join to help people. It is the first response sometimes
15:14on the ground. They are there for months afterwards to help communities recover from disasters. It's not
15:19political in any way, shape or form. What are people, what are people not seeing? What has not
15:24been reported or talked about, about what is happening in there that is, that is horrifying to
15:28you and others who joined the agency to do exactly that? Yeah, I think one thing that is underreported
15:35is just the day-to-day agony and humiliation that we've been suffering this whole time. There's been
15:43such a culture of fear and uncertainty this entire year, where, as you showed in your lead-in, how
15:51there's always headlines about FEMA potentially being abolished. And how do you do your job every
15:59day when you have that hanging over your head? We have a lot of contract employees who, in normal
16:05times, would have their contracts renewed every two years or so. Those employees, when their contracts
16:12started expiring this year, they were essentially put in this month-to-month limbo state of they
16:18don't know if they're having a job 30 days from now. They have families, they have kids. How can
16:24you possibly live not knowing what's happening more than 30 days ahead of you? It's just really,
16:32really demoralizing and just seeing everything just ripped to shreds right in front of you and
16:36feeling so powerless. It's sickening. Yeah, it's so hard to just go into work every day. And I am so
16:45proud of everyone who still does. They're able to soldier through this and help people and save
16:52communities. It's really, really inspiring. You know very well from your job what it means to have the
17:00agency gutted to have the employees reduced, have funding reduced, given how important it is to have
17:06people on the ground immediately and also responding to multiple disasters at one time and sometimes for
17:13months. It's not like these recoveries are a day. Tell us more from your experience, someone who's been
17:18in the agency, about the impact of that stuff. Yeah, so there's a lot of things that FEMA does that
17:27just might not be in the news. For example, in the Kerrville, Texas floods that killed more people
17:37than Hurricane Harvey did, which is so hard to believe, but it's true, they didn't have flood
17:42warning systems. And that is something that FEMA does. FEMA funds a lot of hazard mitigation projects,
17:52so things like flood warning systems, elevating people's houses so they don't get just swept away
17:58in floods. And these are really expensive investments for small communities. So FEMA is
18:03like essential for having these sorts of investments possible. And yeah, so these lack of investments,
18:14hazard mitigation has been completely neglected in this administration. So neglecting those investments,
18:20it puts people's lives at risk. Like we will see deaths. It's really ugly and just horrible.
18:31James Stroud, I know it is not easy to speak out in moments like this. It's so important. I really appreciate
18:37you being here and helping people watching understand what's happening. Thank you again.
18:42Okay, coming up, Democrats are facing tough odds in the upcoming midterms if they want to take back
18:48the Senate. But some news today could make that fight a little easier to win. That is next.
18:59Some big news dropped earlier today that could affect Democrats' chances to retake the Senate in
19:03next year's midterm elections. They need to retain 13 seats and flip four that are currently in Republican
19:09hands. And this afternoon, NBC News confirmed reports that Iowa's junior senator, Republican Joni Ernst,
19:15plans to announce she will not seek reelection next year after wrestling with the decision
19:19for months. Ernst has represented Iowa in the Senate for over 10 years now alongside fellow Republican
19:25Chuck Grassley. And if she does, in fact, choose to not seek reelection, that could help Democrats
19:29in their quest to pry the Senate out of Donald Trump's hands. How great would that be?
19:34Jackie Norris is the chair of the Des Moines Public School Board. She was Michelle Obama's chief of
19:38staff. She's a former teacher and a mom of three. She's also running for the Democratic nomination
19:44for Senate in Iowa. And she joins me now. Jackie Norris, it is great to see you.
19:49It is great to see you. Let me start just by asking you, I mean, we knew that Joni Ernst was thinking
19:55about this for some time. But what was your reaction today when you saw the news that she was
20:00dropping out of the race or not planning to run for reelection?
20:02Look, you know, it's long past overdue. I think that anybody who lives in this state
20:08and is talking to people right now is seeing that government is failing our kids
20:12and families are in crisis and it's time for new leadership. So it was a welcome sign
20:17and we're happy that she's gone. You've worked on plenty of campaigns before, including President
20:24Obama's and former Iowa Governor Tom Vilsack's. You know, Iowa politics very, very well. I mean,
20:28historically, the party in power takes a hit in the following midterms, but Iowa is typically
20:33quite red or a lot of people watching will think that. Senator Ernst won reelection by more than six
20:38points in 2020. Trump carried the state by double digits last November. When you talk to voters in
20:43Iowa, do they think that this is winnable? And what should people out there know about why a Democrat
20:50could win this seat and take it back from Republicans? Yeah, you know, there are glimmers
20:55of hope everywhere in Iowa. So you see a couple of Senate seats that were picked up that were Trump
21:01seats. You see a governor candidate that's running, that's well-funded, maybe three competitive
21:07congressional races and an open Senate seat. So everything is there for us to win. The most
21:14important thing that we have to do is remind all of our voters that they need to turn out. And it's
21:21got to be a precinct by precinct apparatus, right? Like, we know how to win. I mean, that is what you
21:27do. You turn out people. But even more important than that, I think it's not, it's the message that
21:33you deliver. So as somebody, a former teacher, school board member, you know, small business owner,
21:38what I have to see every day is hungry kids, because government programs aren't feeding them
21:45anymore. And you see angry parents who can't get mental health supports for their young people.
21:51And you see care workers, whether they're pre-K or they're child care workers, they work with
21:57people with disabilities or the elderly and aging, and they're working two jobs just to stay afloat.
22:05And these are people who care for our oldest and our youngest. And to me, that's a moral failure,
22:11especially when at the same time, what they're doing is they're cutting those services, and then
22:18they're just paying the rich more. You have to, it's a crowded Democratic primary already. It might
22:25get more crowded. We will see. What differentiates you? I mentioned some things about your bio. You
22:30mentioned some things about your background. What differentiates you from the other candidates who
22:33are already in the race? Why should people vote for you? Yeah. You know, one of the greatest things
22:39about this campaign is I'm just going to be me. And anybody who knows me is I'm going to be tenacious,
22:44and I'm going to talk about the really important things that need to be addressed. That means I'm
22:49going to continue to talk about public education and the need for full funding for public education.
22:55I'm going to keep talking about what is important for rural Iowa. What's really important in rural Iowa is
23:00that everybody has a high-quality school, that they have access to public health care,
23:06and that's what people want. They want those two things. They also want help for their young people.
23:12When I say young people are in crisis, you know, there is a cell phone addiction problem. We have kids
23:18with social media addictions. And, you know, that matters. And so one of the things as a school board
23:25member that I was so happy to champion was a cell phone policy. So right now, right, we don't have
23:31cell phones in our classrooms. And that means teachers can teach and kids can learn. And little things like
23:37that may seem small, but at the end of the day, you solve hard problems by just saying it out loud and
23:44working hard together to get things done. I know teachers like homework and you like homework,
23:49which is a good thing for people who are running for office. I asked a similar question to your
23:54fellow Democratic candidate, Zach Walls, in the last hour. I mean, Senator in support of Trump's big,
23:58ugly bill, which of course cuts Medicaid and SNAP benefits, has been at the forefront of this race.
24:03She's no longer a factor in this race. But now Republican Congresswoman Ashley Hinson says she plans to
24:08put her hat in or that seems likely. And just last weekend, she praised the law.
24:13What do you make of that? And how central will that be to what you talk about out there on the
24:18campaign trail? It's the same bad votes, just a new wardrobe. So I need people to get out there
24:25and support my message. JackieNorris.com. I mean, we're going to keep repeating how these cuts are
24:32impacting our communities across the state. And I'm going to fight like hell for them.
24:36JackieNorris, thank you for being with us on a Sunday night or a Friday night, Sunday night.
24:42Sorry, it's Labor Day. It's a Friday night. Thank you for being here with us on a Friday night. I
24:46really appreciate you joining us. Great. OK, take care. Thank you.
24:50OK, when we come back 20 years after Hurricane Katrina devastated communities, particularly black
24:57communities in Louisiana and New Orleans, a new documentary shares stories of resilience and hope.
25:02After so much loss, journalist Tremaine Lee was there 20 years ago and he joins me just ahead.
25:1220 years ago today, Hurricane Katrina slammed into the Gulf Coast, devastating communities in
25:17Mississippi and Louisiana, particularly black communities and vulnerable, low lying areas.
25:23Katrina is remembered to this day as one of the deadliest and most destructive natural disasters in
25:28U.S. history. Tremaine Lee was a young staff writer at the Times-Picune newspaper in New Orleans at the
25:34time. He was part of the team that won the 2006 Pulitzer Prize for breaking news for their coverage of
25:39Katrina. Now, for a new documentary, Tremaine Lee returned to this region this time to tell the story
25:45of the resilient local leaders and community members who stayed after the storm and have spent the last
25:51two decades not only working to rebuild what was lost, but also reimagining the systems that failed
25:56their communities long before Katrina ever made landfall. The film is called Hope in High Water
26:02and is currently streaming on Peacock. Here's a preview.
26:07Feels like Katrina was yesterday and then sometimes it feels like it was a dream of another life.
26:12Katrina runs like a long movie in my brain.
26:16I take deep breaths because I come from a people who know how to come back,
26:20so I will start again. 20 years later, there is hope. There's always hope. I think New Orleans is
26:27the proof of that. Tremaine Lee joins us here now. I can't believe that it has been 20 years. This is
26:35such a powerful message. I just want to start with the title and really the message of your film,
26:39Hope in High Water. I mean, often discussions, many of which you have written about,
26:44about Katrina, focus on the destruction and the devastation and the impact, of course,
26:48on the city and the community. Tell me about why it was important to you to capture the hope
26:53in this documentary instead. I tell you what, Jen, thank you so much for having me,
26:57especially tonight to have this conversation about Katrina, a piece of which sticks with so many of
27:02us who were there across the country. But I think the lasting memories of Katrina for a lot of people
27:08will be the police abuses, the vigilantism, the brutality, the hunger, the anguish, the anxiety
27:15and pain and chaos. It sticks with us. But I don't want that to be the lasting image of a people who
27:21have already suffered through so much and fought back the best they could. And so this idea of even
27:27amid the high water, even amid, you know, the struggle to rebuild a community and rebuild the city
27:33and patch together all the pieces of a community that broke when the levees broke. I wanted there
27:38to be a hopefulness because that's what is also there. The people of New Orleans, and they reminded
27:44me time and again to stop using the word resilient, right? Resilient means that you're expected to keep
27:49bending and bending and bending, almost breaking and then bending some more. There are other terms
27:54like resolve, determined, right? To patch together the city and heal it when all those systems and
28:01politicians fail then. And so it was important to show this side because there's a lot of noise
28:06out there right now and there's a lot of destruction and pain. And I wanted to give something hopeful
28:11because that's what the people are also. That's such an interesting point about resilient versus
28:16resolve. I think that's a lesson for everybody to better understand. The film traces not only the
28:21physical rebuilding of Katrina. We showed, of course, a clip of it, but particularly the community
28:26members who came together to reimagine what recovery efforts look like. What do you hope
28:32viewers take away from that? I think, you know, in the broadest sense, it's that everything people
28:39need, right, to heal, to grow, to reclaim, it's already within them, within us. It's already within them.
28:45And in talking to folks in the community, whether it's addressing the abysmal maternal health care
28:51crisis in the city, or whether it's, there's a woman named John Shell Johnson, whose story we
28:55follow, who was just seven or eight years old when Katrina hit. But now she's working on a farm
29:01with her hands literally in the soil, teaching young people how to grow food so they can go on
29:05to sustain their communities. Or folks on the Gulf Coast of Mississippi and Gulfport who are fighting
29:11for the land beneath their feet, not just against coastal erosion, but the encroachment of big
29:15industry in communities where black folks coming out of emancipation created communities and
29:21institutions. And so I think the big lesson here is that, you know, with some agency, with some
29:25resources, folks can do amazing work because those closest to the problem are also closest to the
29:31solutions. And I think what you see and the folks you meet and the organizations you meet here in Hope
29:37and High Water, I think it's a perfect example of that. Upon your return, and you know the city so
29:43well and have covered this for so many years, what did you see as the biggest kind of outstanding
29:49issue? Maybe there's more than one, there's probably more than one that needs to still be addressed.
29:53There are many, and the biggest one I think that made people so susceptible in the beginning
29:58is the vast inequality and the segregation of the wealth and income gaps. Lest we forget the lower
30:049th Ward, which took the brunt of the death toll from Katrina. You know, those folks were cordoned
30:10off and pushed there generations ago. When you go to the lower 9th Ward now, there are still steps
30:15leading to nowhere where homes and families should be. There's just empty lots. And so when it rains
30:20there, even though the physical infrastructure of the city has been bolstered, the levee system has
30:25been bolstered, when it rains, you know, during the filming of this, it rained for a couple weeks
30:30straight. And there was water up to people's wheel wells. And so as long as people don't have
30:35the resources to get out of those communities, which they shouldn't have to leave, right? But
30:42even though their home values are value less, some of those areas aren't insurable anymore,
30:47the insurance companies left. And so now what happens if and when the next big one happens,
30:52and you have poor people without resources still in communities that are super susceptible to flooding,
30:58what happens then? And then you have an administration that is gutting the, you know,
31:02one of the major machines that help folks in these situations, FEMA, what happens then?
31:07So when I was asking folks like, do you think we're better off today if we had another Katrina today?
31:12And they said it'd be worse. Imagine the posture of this, of this, you know, the current administration,
31:17if we had a bunch of poor people at their wits end, once again, it would be insane.
31:22It's such an important reminder. I spoke with one of the FEMA officials who signed that letter
31:26this week and just about the devastation. It's like waiting for a tragedy to happen,
31:31which is just a horrible way to live. Tremaine Lee, it's streaming now on Peacock. Thank you for
31:36all of the work you've done to shine a light on the recovery, the time around Katrina. We really
31:42appreciate you being here tonight with us as well. Thank you, Jen. Okay. Next up, school is back in
31:48session and with the future of college sports still up in the air, some of the college programs that
31:52produce America's Olympic heroes are at risk. My chat with Olympic gold medal, Summer Sanders,
31:58coming up next. As another school year starts, the future of college sports is as uncertain as
32:06ever. And that's because we're three years into an era where students can make money off their name,
32:11image, and likeness, a trio known as NIL. And there are still very few laws regulating the
32:16millions of dollars flowing into college athletics. Without a regulatory framework, it's hard for
32:21athletes or schools to plan for the future. Now, President Trump has an executive order that he
32:26says will, quote, save college sports. And Congress is weighing the SCORE Act, which may provide a
32:30framework for schools to directly pay their athletes. But while football and basketball players may see
32:36the lion's share of that money, athletes and other sports worry their programs might be on the chopping
32:42block, including many of the Olympic sports that we all love to watch every four years. One of those
32:47sports is swimming. Because there are no major swimming leagues in America, the pipeline for the
32:52next Katie Ledecky or Michael Phelps often runs through college swimming programs. And as a former
32:58college swimmer and mediocre one, not as good as them, this is a sport I care about in particular.
33:03One voice who has stepped forward to sound the alarm is Summer Sanders. She won two gold medals at the 1992
33:08Olympics in Barcelona after swimming collegiately at Stanford. And after years of working in media,
33:14she's teaming up with USA swimming to make sure that the future of college athletics includes the
33:19sport she loves. I recently sat down with Sanders to learn a bit more.
33:25Summer Sanders, I am so delighted to be sitting down and talking with you. My 12 year old self would
33:30have been freaking out right now. So here we are. But we're talking about a really important issue.
33:34When people out there hear that college athletes are going to get paid or that universities are going
33:40to be sharing their revenue with athletes. Many people think that sounds good. Right. It's not. It's
33:45more complicated than that. Why is that? I think the initial reaction is probably what's about time,
33:50right? If there's money being made and these athletes are putting their heart and soul into their sport
33:55and performing for the university, they should reap the benefits. There is a lot of money and some of that
34:01money goes to support Olympic sports. Olympic athletes in this country, there's no funding mechanism or
34:08funding pot for them. A lot of them rise up through universities or through schools. Tell me more
34:15about the impact of that. If you're an aspiring Olympic athlete, somebody who wants to be Summer Sanders
34:20one day. Yeah. Okay. So you're a club swimmer, right? That's how you start out. You pay your dues to your club
34:26and those dues go to pay for your coach. You pay for all of your swim meets and your travel and stuff like
34:32that. And then when you make it to the college level, you have a scholarship. Now, all of a sudden, you're not
34:38paying for anything, right? And you're getting exceptional coaching and support at the training
34:43table, what you're eating and support in the athletic department with injuries and ailments
34:48and stuff like that. And then if you move on to the Olympic level, then you may have to subsidize
34:55yourself and pay for things. US OPC, the US Olympic and Paralympic Committee, they are not funded by the
35:02federal government. We are one of only a couple of countries that is not funded by the federal
35:06government. One of the impacts of the revenue sharing NIL deals is that, I mean, a lot of programs
35:14are being ended at universities. Explain to us why and what the impact is. There are 101 sports that have
35:22been dropped since 2020. And I'm not saying that we can keep every sport. I get it. But the Olympic sports
35:30in general are in jeopardy because they're non-revenue. And I guess we could look at it and say,
35:36but look what happened to University of Nebraska when they started highlighting their amazing women's
35:42volleyball team and filled up Memorial Stadium with the biggest volleyball game in history.
35:48It was televised and there was a lot of promo and press around it. I think if that kind of attention
35:54had been brought to Olympic sports at the NCAA level, maybe it would be a bit of a different
35:59story, but you can't turn back the clock. So you have to like, you have to shift something. I think
36:04a big shift is supporting and endowing scholarships and coaching positions of those Olympic sports
36:13at as many schools as we possibly can. And what's so interesting about this and should be scary for
36:18people who love the Olympics and love these sports, maybe you have athletes who are aspiring to be in
36:23them is that when these programs go away, those are places where these athletes aspiring Olympians
36:29can't go and develop their skills. When these programs go away, where do these swimmers go
36:35or track and field athletes? What can they do? They just have to look for other schools or what are their
36:40options? But yeah, I mean, many of them, let's be honest, their career is done at the varsity level.
36:47It's like a family pays for their kid to be on a swim team when they're younger, right? And then
36:55you earn a college scholarship or you have this support from a university or maybe you're paying
36:59tuition, but you're walk on on the team, but you have this support. So now you're not necessarily
37:04paying for a coach. If that model goes away, then all of a sudden these swimmers are having to pay for
37:10their, where am I going to get this coaching and how am I going to find this support? And a lot of
37:15people can't afford that. A lot of people and a lot of Olympians can't afford it right now. We have
37:21gold medalists working two or three jobs to make ends meet. I'm a mother of a girl. You're the mother
37:27of a girl. I think a lot about how sports is such a confidence booster. There's so many statistics. I know
37:35this is not just about young women, but what should people out there understand about the impact of
37:41some of these programs being cut? Well, I'll just start out by saying Title IX is near and dear to
37:46my heart beyond the fact that it's given me opportunity. I'm a 1972 baby, so I'm a Title IX
37:52baby. And I was raised by a strong mom who never had the opportunity to see if she was going to be a
37:57good athlete. And the people who fought for Title IX would say, we don't want to go back to club
38:01because we fought from club to varsity and now we're varsity. There's a lot of emotions involved.
38:08I just think that women need the opportunity to be those fierce young women on a soccer field,
38:17a court, a pool, so that they can in turn be fierce in whatever other area of life they choose to pursue
38:26in their professional world. Okay, so the Olympics are coming up in 2028.
38:31It's very exciting. They're in Los Angeles. They're back in the United States.
38:35We're in an environment right now where there is fear of people traveling to the United States,
38:42of people who are here in the United States being kicked out of the United States.
38:46Is that a concern of people who are former Olympians, who are
38:51involved in the Olympics, about what impact that could have on the games?
38:55Of course, forever. As you know, the Olympics has tried to separate from politics. And it hasn't
39:04worked out always, tragically, in some cases. So yes, of course, when you're coming into a city
39:11where, and I haven't been to LA in a while, but when there's unrest and unhappy and dissatisfied,
39:19and there's worry, yeah, it worries me. I just want LA to shine as much as it possibly can to host
39:29these Olympians from all over the world so that they get their moment. Because they don't get many
39:35moments. I think that's something everybody should want in the world. Summer Sanders,
39:41it's such a pleasure. I appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you to Summer Sanders for sitting down with
39:47me and talking about the impact on a lot of these sports. Coming up, Professor Lawrence Tribe on
39:52President Trump's big court loss today that could crater his economic agenda.
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