- 5 months ago
As Malaysia celebrates its 68th Merdeka, this special segment explores the deeper meaning of independence—not just through flags and history, but through economic empowerment—by spotlighting the struggles and solutions for financially marginalised communities including women, rural entrepreneurs, and indigenous artisans, with insights from Yellow Tree Malaysia, Ibupreneur, and Community Ops on how inclusive income generation is not just social good, but smart economics.
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00:00Hello and welcome to Nyaga Spotlight with me, Tamina Kausjee.
00:12Nyaga Spotlight takes us through the week in economic analysis and future affairs.
00:15Now today on analysis, in line with Merdeka Day this weekend,
00:19our spotlight is on independence through income.
00:23Malaysia turned 68 this Merdeka,
00:25and while independence is often spoken of in terms of flags and history,
00:28real independence ought to be measured by whether Malaysians and their families
00:32can stand on their own two feet economically.
00:36The numbers remind us roughly 37% of Malaysian households earn below RM5,000 a month.
00:42Women's labor force participation is still stagnant at roughly around 56%,
00:46peak compared to men's 83%,
00:49and our indigenous Orangasli communities face poverty rates over three times the national average.
00:55These are not just statistics, they highlight structural gaps.
00:59So we asked today, how do we build true independence through income?
01:03How do economically marginalized mothers, rural entrepreneurs and indigenous artisans
01:08translate skills into sustainable livelihoods?
01:12Our guests this morning are here to share about how financial inclusion for our most underserved
01:17is not a charity model, it's actually good economics.
01:21A pleasure to welcome to the studios, together with Aida Zunaidi,
01:26co-founder and CEO of Ibupreneur,
01:29Colin Ray Salvaratnam, who is the founder of Community Ops,
01:32as well as Alina Abdullah, who is the founder of Yellow Tree Malaysia.
01:37A very good morning to all of you, how are we doing?
01:39Good.
01:39Thank you for having us, Tim.
01:40All right, amazing.
01:42So really good to have you all with us here.
01:44I'd like to get started and get the discussion going,
01:47perhaps by referring towards Alina.
01:49So Alina, tell us a little bit about the Yellow Tree story,
01:53as well as the fact that you are essentially helping to contribute
01:58to uplifting women's labor force participation rate,
02:02even though it may not be within the structured confines of, let's say,
02:05a corporate role or a nine-to-five job.
02:08Tell me more.
02:09Well, I mean, we are a consultancy and a training company.
02:12We spend about 30% of our time uplifting underserved communities.
02:15So we have three pillars.
02:17We have women, refugees, as well as Orang Asal.
02:20So let's talk a little bit about women.
02:22And it's critical because we serve many, many communities
02:27from the Orang Asal as well, women in B40 communities.
02:31A lot of training is actually going into helping entrepreneurs
02:35in the B40 sector to upskill.
02:39And what kind of upskilling are we talking about?
02:40We're talking about financial skills.
02:43We're talking about mental health skills as well.
02:46But most importantly, digital skills and how to build businesses.
02:50And we do so with partners.
02:53We have Aida here with us today.
02:55And eBupreneur is one of our partners for these initiatives.
02:58Amazing, amazing stuff.
03:00I will come back to you again when it comes to looking at a couple
03:04of structural factors which have helped the women that you work with
03:07in particular.
03:08But before that, perhaps I can just jump into asking Colin
03:11a little bit about community ops, right?
03:13So let's look at the community ops story, how you got started,
03:17and also the fact that it is distinctly a for-profit initiative.
03:22Tell me more.
03:23All right.
03:24So with community ops, what we do is we try to –
03:28my personal background is that I've been in a couple
03:31of social enterprises before.
03:33And we do work with the Orang Asli communities,
03:36but largely we found that there was a lack of ownership
03:39in these businesses that we do with the Orang Asli partners itself.
03:44And so with community ops, our founding is actually creating businesses
03:48where our indigenous members can come up from producer level
03:52up to co-owners with us, and we can build the business together
03:56and invest in our longevity together.
03:59And so we started about two years ago, and we've been going on about it.
04:03And so it's been going good so far.
04:05So two years ago would have been an interesting conjecture in time.
04:10It was, I think, a little after the pandemic lockdowns proper had ended.
04:14So let's talk about what kind of figures you're generally looking at
04:19when it comes to median payout for each of the Orang Asli producers per month.
04:24Ah, okay.
04:26So to answer the median payout for the Orang Asli's per month,
04:29our organisation is a bit different because they're our co-owners.
04:34They actually earn 50%, the equal rate of what the management of community ops owns.
04:40So from all of our revenue, we take out all the costs,
04:44we leave about 20% of our revenue for retraining purposes
04:49and community development purposes.
04:52And everything else is split evenly between our Indigenous partners
04:56and the management itself.
04:58Well understood.
04:59And let's say, in your experience over the past two years or so,
05:04what is the continuance rate of the Orang Asli producers
05:09after the first three months?
05:12Okay.
05:13Taking a 90-day window into it.
05:14A 90-day window is great.
05:16So previously in my personal work, retention is a very big issue
05:21when it comes to majority of initiatives.
05:24The ideas behind the initiatives are great.
05:27But a lot of the times when the Orang Asli partners are just beneficiaries,
05:33retention might become an issue.
05:35And so with us, what we have done by making them our partners,
05:38we have managed to keep 100% retention rate over two years.
05:42And every partner that has started a business with us
05:45is still running a business with us today.
05:48This means that we have a smaller base of producers
05:51that we are able to impact,
05:53but we are able to build stronger as opposed to building broad.
05:57Understood.
05:58And I think that would be definitely a challenge
06:01that we are going to repeatedly address different dimensions of
06:04when it comes to retention.
06:05Ida, I saw you noddling along to that.
06:07Tell me more about how Eberpreneur got its start.
06:11And in fact, of course, you are specifically working with women
06:15who are economically marginalised and underserved.
06:18So we are a social enterprise where we empower women
06:22from the underprivileged groups through education and also employment
06:26because we understand that not everyone wants to run their own micro-businesses,
06:32but also provide opportunities for them to work for stability.
06:36So mainly, I don't look at it, as you mentioned, it's not a charity.
06:41We're not solely doing this for social mission,
06:44but I really want the platform to be a reliable economic engine
06:49where we balance business with our ability to reinvest back to the women community.
06:55So we're looking at education, training, giving them supported skills.
07:03At the same time, tracking and making sure that they are earning income
07:07because at the end of the day, ultimately, that's how they can really change their lives.
07:12So we've seen lives, women's lives change, and not only it impacts themselves,
07:18but it impacts her children, the family, and the community around it.
07:22Exactly. It's about that multiplier effect, right?
07:25Would you be able to give us perhaps a rough estimate
07:28of what's the usual median monthly income uplift
07:32for women who have participated in eBupreneur's programmes?
07:36So briefly, our academy is three months.
07:39However, we run a minimum...
07:40That 90 days, you know, magic number, right?
07:43Yes. However, you know, working together with Elena,
07:46it does take time to see the uplift in median income.
07:49We do monthly monitoring of their income and business progress
07:56for a minimum of one year to see the change.
07:59So however, we have seen women's income grown from the baseline at 1,006.
08:05So that's just slightly above hardcore poverty line.
08:10That's right.
08:11Up to 4,003 in our data.
08:13So that's 200%.
08:15So that's really, really progress.
08:18So, I mean, it's still far from our national median,
08:21which is around 6,003.
08:23But, you know, the extra hundreds of ringgit,
08:27an extra thousand could mean that...
08:29For a family, that is the difference between children going to school
08:31or having to stay back at home and help mother.
08:34Yes, definitely.
08:35So they're no longer in daily financial stress to survive.
08:41Correct.
08:42Now they can think about their goals and their dreams.
08:45So we hope that, you know, there's growth
08:49because right now we see that 83% to 84% of them
08:53has reached that across that threshold.
08:56Amazing.
08:56And that is truly what is really of value,
08:59having crossed above that poverty line
09:01and also staying there with the skills that you've acquired
09:04over the 90 days and that one year of monitoring.
09:08So a lot of hard work clearly goes into building up the entrepreneurs
09:12and ensuring that they're able to gain and achieve some economic autonomy.
09:18Alina, I'd like to ask you about looking in particular at harder numbers,
09:24looking at the procurement shift.
09:25Now, what percentage of, let's say, procurement spending
09:29have Yellow Tree's efforts shifted into these underserved MSMEs
09:34without subsidies?
09:36So that's an interesting area, right?
09:38Yes, it is, Laura.
09:39Thank you for that question.
09:40Just to be clear, we're not directly involved in procurement.
09:45So we are consultants and we are coaches, right?
09:48So if there were to be a baseline of zero,
09:52and let's just say customers, yes,
09:54they are looking at purchasing products and services from underserved communities
09:59and their 10 clients.
10:01Highly likely, because Malaysia is actually,
10:03we're very, very noble and we're all very generous people.
10:07So if we have 10 clients,
10:08probably eight would be interested and keen to buy the products
10:11that these underserved community women have,
10:14be it biscuits or, you know, handbags, etc.
10:17Now, that's a lead.
10:19Now, how many would like to buy?
10:22Yes, so that's the procurement side.
10:23Would highly likely be maybe about 30 to 40% of that eight
10:28that would buy from these services.
10:31Now, for us, while that's good,
10:34it's not so much a procurement challenge, right?
10:37Purchasing, Malaysians are very generous
10:39when it comes to underserved products,
10:40underserved communities.
10:42Very popular.
10:43There's favorite brands and there's space still for many new brands.
10:46Absolutely.
10:47But the insights that we have is we feel very,
10:50well, we feel that we need to help.
10:53Now, the question is when it comes to entrepreneurship,
10:55it's the second and the third and the fourth purchase.
10:58How do we get that running and going?
11:01So it's not so much about procurement,
11:03it's about the innovation process.
11:05Are we addressing this innovation process of getting new products?
11:09Are we helping underserved communities produce products
11:13that are of quality, that are tested?
11:15And of course, one of the greatest things that we love to do is branding, right?
11:20Do people remember the brands that they purchase?
11:22Or are they solely purchasing because they feel sorry for a community?
11:27Because that's a big issue that is rarely addressed.
11:30Very true.
11:31Exactly.
11:31And also, I would say perhaps the market positioning of many of the products,
11:36which are, of course, produced by those from underserved and B40 backgrounds.
11:43Usually, the positioning is quite often at women-related empowerment career fairs.
11:50It might be at national events that are championing that specific cause.
11:54It might be part of the CSR efforts of a very large corporation.
11:58That's right.
11:58Right.
11:58Well, your thoughts on this?
12:00Not that that's problematic because you clearly drive sales.
12:04But what about expanding outside that lens?
12:07How could that be done?
12:08That's extraordinarily challenging.
12:10I'll be very frank.
12:12I did come up from a corporate background.
12:14And the procurement process of purchasing products, goods and products,
12:18have to go through such an intense process.
12:21And it's such a huge barrier that, you know, even I'm sure Aida could attest that
12:26if she wants to, let's just say, bring in the cookies, the products that the women actually are producing,
12:32it's such a headache because perhaps, you know, in this case, could it be quality?
12:38And for other social enterprises, could it be halal certification?
12:42Number three, HACCP, all these huge problems.
12:47I mean, it's not problematic.
12:48It's problematic for the process, right?
12:49But it's necessary.
12:50Of course.
12:51How can we apply all these standards at a corporate level?
12:55And actually, OK, can we figure out a way to let the underserved communities bring their products in?
13:01And so I think that's a huge issue at this point in time,
13:06if we want to allow underserved communities to have access to corporations with bigger budgets
13:11and bigger hearts as well, because there's a lot of opportunities such as gifting and, you know, team buildings, you know,
13:18and they would be more than happy to purchase.
13:19But the roadblock is almost always the process at the corporate level.
13:24Absolutely.
13:25And actually, Colin, I'd love to get your insights on the same issue,
13:30which, of course, Alina has gone a little bit into depth,
13:32because as you'd mentioned, it's a clear 50-50 split between management of community ops
13:39and the Orang Asli entrepreneurs who are now moving into co-ownership.
13:44What are some of the barriers you've observed in the time that you've been around
13:49when it comes to expanding and making sure you have that second, third, fourth and repeated sale?
13:56Yeah, I think you made a wonderful point that something is not really addressed in our industry
14:01is selling based off poverty or empathy as the key goal.
14:05Because I sell, like, one of our products, the indigenous sambal,
14:09it's made by the women and, yes, they are part of the marginalized society as well.
14:15But that is not the reason why we're selling the sambal.
14:18It is a traditional sambal that once you taste it, you will fall in love with it.
14:23It's part of our Malaysian heritage as well, right?
14:26And a little-known one because it comes from our indigenous communities.
14:30Yes, and so my position is more to show people what our Orang Asli partners are capable of making
14:36and the products can speak for itself instead of relying on customers
14:41that feel empathic towards our cause or think that we are doing something that's helping the world per se.
14:47And when you go based on the value of your product, most of the time I see retention in customers.
14:54People get in touch with us.
14:55They like the idea of what we're doing.
14:57But once they touch the sambal and they taste it and they start WhatsAppping you about how great it is
15:02and how they will keep repeating the orders,
15:05I think that is when you reach a level on which you have already brought them to market appropriately.
15:10Exactly. That whole, you know, try it, love it, and then that's what makes you a repeated customer, right?
15:18Perhaps a little bit more doable with consumer products.
15:22Okay. Aida, you're, of course, exactly in that line, consumer products, right?
15:26But also, because eBupreneur was started out in about 2019 or so, now looking back over time,
15:33what type of five-year survival rate have you been able to observe for some of your eBupreneur entrepreneurs?
15:42Business survival rate for us means active operations despite of any pauses or declining revenues.
15:49Understood.
15:50So for eBupreneur-supported businesses, survival rate is approximately 75%.
15:56Very healthy.
15:59Very, very healthy.
16:00Yeah.
16:00We attribute this to three things.
16:03One is a very consistent monitoring and evaluation framework.
16:07Second is a very targeted planning for their businesses.
16:12Right.
16:12Third, I would say, is the social finance for sustainability because we offer that.
16:18Because what happens is in that five-year, so for context, what happens in the first year is usually about finding the right product, going to market and validating.
16:29And second year is perhaps tweaking a bit of your product so make sure people love it even more.
16:35Right.
16:36Once you've landed on something pretty good.
16:38And third year is another test of survival because that's where you would tend to see what really makes money.
16:48And this model does change at this time.
16:51Sure.
16:51Yes.
16:51Three years is a long time when it comes to innovation, right?
16:55Yeah.
16:55Okay, now we're in 2025.
16:56Who knows how the next five years will go?
16:58Yeah.
16:59And year four, good products.
17:01For example, Colin mentioned, you know, we want to share the sambal, but good products need good management.
17:06That means systems and growth needs to be in place.
17:10They have to put accounting measures.
17:12They need to bring lawyers in to protect their good sambals.
17:15Because competition.
17:16Copyright, for example, perhaps, yes.
17:18So those things have to come in place.
17:20And year five is where you usually expect more stable revenue stream and sustainability.
17:26So the remainder that don't survive, oftentimes we see it in year four.
17:32Because good products need good management.
17:34Yeah.
17:34How do you stay relevant?
17:36How do you compete with those companies with better scale?
17:40Right.
17:41Who has large branding budgets?
17:43And it's, of course, new at year four compared to somebody coming out at year zero.
17:49Yes.
17:49Yeah.
17:50New versus something tried and trusted or is it just old?
17:54Yeah.
17:54So we do see some challenges within those years.
17:59However, for us, I wouldn't say insufficient funding is a problem because we have really good partners from institutions that provide social finance for sustainability.
18:10So that's where we come in.
18:11We've got a good, strong pipeline over there.
18:13Yes.
18:15However, for women, I see challenge in year four where they have to manage systems and manage their own personal life.
18:26Because, you know, as a woman, we have pressure from personal demands.
18:29We could be giving, we could be having a child between those years because actually five years is a long time.
18:35That's right.
18:35Your family could be expanding.
18:37And quite often, what perhaps proportion of ibupreneur moms are also those who are single female households?
18:45So right now, majority of them is around 65%.
18:50Right.
18:50Yeah.
18:50That adds a dimension of all of the care burden, unpaid care, and also the paid work that you do is only on the mother's shoulders.
19:00So, for example, one of our high-performing entrepreneurs, Kalina, got really good social finance support.
19:08You know, she expanded to 10 locations.
19:10Her business really blew.
19:13However, at the same time, she's battling a divorce case for her four children to fight for NAFKA.
19:19And that's what's really happening in her life, which she won the case, by the way.
19:24So really wonderful.
19:26But these are the things that's happening on the ground.
19:30So we are still working together to grow the ecosystem together with Elena, how we can go beyond just business.
19:38However, providing a whole rounded health care, child care, coaching to really improve how we can grow together.
19:47Exactly.
19:48I mean, I'm also hearing you on the fact that part of the ecosystem involves ensuring that there is access to child care, for example.
19:57How is that managed on a ground level, family to family, woman to woman?
20:03So right now, a lot of the child care is still very informal still, especially in the underprivileged,
20:10because child care, while we have support from platforms like Keto Care, it's still slightly on the more expensive for them.
20:20Not affordable for this specific target market.
20:23Thanks very much for the conversation so far, Aida, Alina, as well as Colin.
20:26We do take a quick break.
20:28Don't go anywhere.
20:29We'll be right back with the rest of the show on Niaga Spotlight.
20:47Welcome back to Niaga Spotlight.
20:48Still with me, Tamina Kausji.
20:49And today, of course, on our Madeka Day special, we're looking at the primary dimension of freedom, which is, of course, economic independence.
20:58I have in the studio with me three incredible leaders who are working in their own dimensions,
21:03looking at uplifting those from economically underprivileged and marginalised backgrounds.
21:08Alina, going into the work that you do with Yellow Tree, which is a little broader, of course,
21:13and let's now zoom in on looking at rural MSMEs.
21:18Tell us more about what kind of survival challenges that they actually face, particularly within the first year.
21:26Getting off the ground is hard enough, but staying afloat for the first 12 months.
21:31Tell us more.
21:31OK, I think, first of all, we must define the word survival because it means very differently, especially in the MSME,
21:40especially rural MSME and in the urban context.
21:44Right.
21:44For the urban context, survival rate in a year is how's your cash flow?
21:49Did you increase your sales by 3 percent, 4 percent?
21:53Or are you making money?
21:56The truth is, on the ground, for rural MSMEs, it's not about that.
22:02Survival rate, I mean, could mean mental health.
22:05It could be making ends meet.
22:07It could be basically trying to find new ways to make money.
22:13So I'm just going to give a few examples here where it's very informal.
22:18And you could see, for example, a stall that's set up selling drinks or snacks.
22:23And it could be there for five years and not have any cash flow.
22:26And it's important to see it from this lens because a lot of those in rural areas, the families are very tight, meaning that they stay together a lot.
22:36So there's a lot of support.
22:38So no one, very few are going to go hungry, for example.
22:41And they have various sources of income.
22:43It could be from their spouse.
22:45It could be that they are living in a home with their grandmothers or their parents.
22:50Intergenerational homes, yes, multi-generational.
22:53Multi-generational homes.
22:56And then are we actually looking at survival rates in terms of finance?
22:59I'm not quite sure.
23:00And there's no data to support that either.
23:03So survival rates, it really depends on...
23:05Versus economic activity.
23:07Versus economic activity.
23:09How much are they making?
23:11So the survival rate, if I were to...
23:13Okay, let's put it in an urban context.
23:15If there were 10 rural entrepreneurs, like Ida was saying, first year is very hard, second and third year.
23:22To be very honest, I think there'd be 30%.
23:25Three out of 10 would survive financially, have a healthy cash flow, and actually revenue coming in for them to sustain their lifestyle at the rural level.
23:36Exactly. So it's a really complex question.
23:41Then let's perhaps look at those rural operators who are actually at the MSME scale,
23:48and they may have gone beyond the model of having a location-based stall, perhaps on their own land, etc.,
23:56to those who are actually doing business that involves freight, etc., possibly to nearby urban centres.
24:03What's their survival rate like, and what kind of barriers have they faced in your experience?
24:09A lot of the businesses, and we've already heard from Colin and Ida,
24:13a lot of businesses from underserved communities are mostly food products.
24:18That's correct. Absolutely. F&B is basically it.
24:21Right, or labour, basically.
24:23And when you are, for example, if you've scaled up and you are going to sell, let's just say, on Shopee or Lazada.
24:29Sure. So access to market. When the foundation's not done right, such as testing products, the shelf life of products,
24:37it's going to be very difficult to go further. If you are very far from the urban centres, chances are the product's going to go bad
24:46by the time it reaches urban centres or the access that you want to scale your business.
24:51And if you, I mean, if out there you've actually ordered sambals from far, far, you know, states from far away,
24:57you would actually see, you know, the package leaks or something's bad.
25:02So almost automatically your brand is cancelled.
25:06And those are the risks that they face.
25:08First, it's the product. Is it good enough to be scaled? Can it be scaled?
25:12So that's one. And secondly, it's skills, actual entrepreneurial skills, because when you start scaling,
25:19there are many processes that you have to start yourself.
25:23From scratch.
25:24From scratch.
25:25With no kind of a guideline or book.
25:28Exactly. Even for us who are more privileged, we can't do that.
25:33It's challenging for us to start our own process, let alone an underprivileged entrepreneur from the rural areas of Malaysia.
25:43Absolutely. I hear you on a lot of that, which is why I'm going to jump quickly to Colin and look at basically the dimension of scaling
25:52and what kind of stress tests would be involved when it comes to perhaps wanting for one of the Orang Asli community co-creators, co-owners to scale up.
26:03What do you feel would be the first challenges?
26:06Have you already tried scaling up with specific creators?
26:10Yeah. So let's speak particularly about the sambal business.
26:14I think it ties to the point that she made.
26:18Like she said, when your access is very far away, that becomes a big issue.
26:22And a lot of the times when you hit a customer the first time, that becomes his opinion on your whole brand.
26:28And that kind of sticks.
26:30So for us, prior to going into scaling up of the business, we did it very methodically, where we planned it in terms of growth.
26:39So we can account for maybe two or 2.5 times our growth.
26:45But if you were to put an unnatural level of growth into our current business, I think capital becomes the first issue that we find.
26:56Because not just making Orang Asli cooks into our partners itself, but we try to fund indigenous jobs,
27:04which is like indigenous planting, harvesting, farming and things like that.
27:08And so a lot of times we absorb an additional cost to sustain this as newly created jobs.
27:15Understood. Exactly.
27:17Because it's also the infrastructure is equally important for ensuring that the community is well settled, right?
27:24Yes.
27:24And when you get into this sort of businesses and this sort of parts of the businesses,
27:30in order for an indigenous partner of ours to be a farmer, a sustainable farmer,
27:36we have to help them across land rights issues, equipment, training.
27:41In order for our cooks to even hit the market, we had to give clean water access to some of our partners' homes.
27:49On top of that, we had to bring them up to national levels of certifications.
27:54So like with food safety standards, getting the right jabs, going through the right courses and all this.
28:00So when it comes to scaling, we face a lot of unseen additional costs.
28:06And so we are very cautious about how we go about scaling at an accelerated pace.
28:12Scale is not necessarily the end goal, right?
28:15Yes. And it's all right to operate in scarcity as well.
28:19Absolutely. It's about changing the mindset and also knowing what fits best for that specific family,
28:26for that specific community.
28:27Speaking of which, Aida, I'd love for you to be able to tell us a little more about
28:32maybe how many of your e-book printers have also then looked at transitioning into formal employment.
28:39Is this also a goal of some?
28:43I would say priority. They still want micro-entrepreneurship because it provides flexibility,
28:50running home-based business while still taking care of children.
28:53However, we did speak about the survival rates previously.
28:57So what happens if they're out of business?
29:01So employment in our network, 15% of them has entered back to formal employment.
29:07So entered back, meaning they used to be formally employed within structures.
29:12Yes.
29:13Okay, right.
29:14Yes.
29:14So that exposure generally also means that when an opportunity may arise,
29:18they are the ones more likely to take it.
29:20Yes, because what happens is usually, according to data,
29:24women exit workforce once they are in childbearing phase.
29:28Yes, correct. That's Malaysia's graph.
29:30And quite often, we don't see that double camel hump of women going back in.
29:34Yes.
29:35So those 15% from home-based vendors or doing informal work,
29:42usually they don't have social protection like EPF or SOXO, etc.
29:48Even though nationally we have initiatives, for example,
29:53like the ISARA-AN or the SURI protection from SOXO as entrepreneurs,
29:58but we see those going back to employment as a chance to rebuild themselves.
30:03For example, we've seen really successful micro-entrepreneurs
30:07setting up several urban booths.
30:11However, she got scammed off her business savings.
30:16So going back to employment.
30:18The vulnerabilities of those from economically underserved backgrounds
30:22to falling prey to financial scams as well.
30:24Yes.
30:25So she had to go back to employment because as a single mom,
30:29she has five kids at home.
30:31So it provides stability,
30:34gives her ability to rebuild her financial savings
30:37in an event that she decides to go back to entrepreneurship.
30:40So employment is one of the routes for us.
30:45One of the routes perhaps.
30:46And also, of course, with just yesterday, in fact,
30:48the tabling of the gig workers bill,
30:50that also then helps to provide a framework moving towards EPF, SOXO
30:56and other protections for those working in this informal economy.
31:00Thank you, Aida.
31:01Alina, let's move into digging deeper on another issue,
31:06digital income conversion.
31:08Now, 4G coverage around Malaysia
31:10has increasingly been becoming better and better.
31:14We're close to almost 100% coverage as of the end of 2024.
31:20But at the same time,
31:22I think the question always comes into looking at vulnerable communities
31:27who are already using digitized access to create income.
31:32But why isn't digital access increasing income commensurately?
31:38Okay.
31:38Very, very good question.
31:40Because over 90% access is very, it's admirable, right, for our country.
31:45Now, I think there's also this perception
31:47that when everyone has a mobile phone,
31:49they are digitally literate.
31:51There you go.
31:52Let's dig deeper.
31:54So that's an issue.
31:55Because, of course, if you'd like to go to YouTube,
31:57going on Instagram and TikTok, that's very simple.
31:59You just click on an app, everyone's using it.
32:02So in time, you will learn how to use these apps,
32:04which is actually entertainment.
32:06But when you go into business and you want to be an entrepreneur,
32:10that's a different game altogether.
32:12So are the communities that we are serving,
32:15or anyone who wants to assist,
32:16are we helping them with digital literacy,
32:20with entrepreneurship as a foundation?
32:22So let's just get a simple example.
32:25When you want to start a business, what do you do?
32:27You actually register online, and everything's online.
32:29SSM is online now.
32:31Yes, correct.
32:31Correct?
32:32E-invoicing, for example.
32:33E-invoicing.
32:34Second, what do you do next?
32:36You've got to go to the bank
32:37and actually apply for a bank account.
32:40And all these are on digital.
32:42And even if we are privileged in urban areas,
32:45we get scared.
32:46How do we do it?
32:47Let alone an underserved woman or man in rural areas.
32:54It's incredibly daunting.
32:56Are we actually providing them with education
33:01and the coaching that allows them to say,
33:04okay, let me try it?
33:05Because it's incredibly hard.
33:07On the topic of women, and I'm going to give you an example,
33:10where if you buy certain things on the rural level,
33:15if you scan a code, right,
33:17I'd like everyone to actually see where's the money going to.
33:21Is it actually the woman or someone else or their spouse?
33:24And why am I giving this example is she's doing all the work,
33:28but the process of setting up a business
33:30and that bank account may not be hers.
33:33So if she doesn't understand that process
33:35of becoming an entrepreneur, how will she scale?
33:38How will she even increase her level of income?
33:42And also perhaps on other dimensions,
33:45there is the possibility that that opens roads
33:49for financial abuse, financial control as well,
33:52economic violence, right?
33:54If you do not have control of literally the payment channels
33:58through which you're receiving money
34:00for the work that you're doing.
34:01Absolutely.
34:02And in many workshops that we've conducted,
34:06well, you know, everyone's talking about,
34:08oh, let's give them access to laptops, et cetera,
34:10digital access, but some don't even know
34:14how to turn on the computer.
34:16And when you're an entrepreneur, you have to start processes.
34:18So you have to use simple apps such as Excel, Word,
34:22and even opening those apps are challenging.
34:25How do you use it?
34:26Can you type?
34:28The basic foundation of digital literacy
34:30is not being addressed.
34:31And we're just saying, okay, it's accessible.
34:34Income should increase.
34:35Everyone should happily and magically be okay the next day.
34:38That's not the case.
34:39And that's not what we're seeing.
34:41And that's concerning.
34:42Absolutely.
34:43Deeply concerning.
34:44Now, as we're moving towards closing out
34:46the conversation in a while,
34:48Colin, I'd of course like to ask you,
34:50when you look at the percentage of your revenue,
34:52how much of that is actually reinvested
34:55into producer training,
34:57hopefully to overcome a couple of those challenges
34:59which Alina had already mentioned?
35:02Okay.
35:02So on paper, we have a percentage of 20%,
35:06which we reinvest back into the community.
35:09But like a very good point that Alina made,
35:12there is a lack of training on the grounds
35:15that people do have digital access,
35:17but they do not know how to take those digital access
35:19up to an entrepreneur level.
35:21And so what actually happens
35:23is that we do end up spending closer to 40%, 50%
35:26at the initial first year.
35:30That high amount of our revenue
35:32goes back into training.
35:34But not just like digital access,
35:36we provide like for the sambal to cook,
35:39you need clean water.
35:40So we provide access for them to get their rights
35:43to get water tapped to their house.
35:46We solve their issues with like land
35:47where they're planting the kantan.
35:48And a lot of the times,
35:50we do end up spending way beyond 40%.
35:55Understood.
35:56But ultimately, we have a, on paper,
35:59our target is to bring it down back to 20%,
36:02where we can easily train the next generation
36:06of entrepreneurs from the community.
36:09But it's a dual role
36:12because while we have our cooks who are our partners,
36:16we also want to replace myself in the business.
36:20Like for example,
36:21we have our partner, Moy Banjay,
36:22and she has trouble with literacy.
36:25So she cannot address our customers digitally.
36:28But what we can do
36:29is we can train her daughter to do my job.
36:33And eventually, in like five to 10 years time,
36:36I won't be in community ops anymore
36:38and she can take over my role
36:39and drive it forward.
36:40Custodianship is completely for the community,
36:42with the community.
36:43And so we do aim for a targeted 20%,
36:47but at our current scale,
36:50we give everything we can to make it survive.
36:54Absolutely understood.
36:55Thanks very much for that, Colin.
36:56And of course, Ida,
36:57looking at those dimensions,
36:59but when it comes to eBupreneur,
37:01in general,
37:02what do your costs look like per entrepreneur
37:04who you onboard?
37:07So looking at costs,
37:09it involves not only the training,
37:13however, we still provide the opportunity cost
37:16of them joining trainings.
37:18Understood.
37:19Because they do need to,
37:20for example,
37:21perhaps not be at home during those hours.
37:23Yeah.
37:23So we provide them with daily expenses,
37:27with transportation,
37:28because they have to travel all the way from one thing
37:30and it takes two hours, et cetera.
37:33So, and we even provide social finance
37:36and the monitoring one year
37:37is still such a heavy cost.
37:40However, every one ringgit that we spend,
37:43we see about two to three times
37:46of incremental monthly income.
37:48So over a year,
37:49that's a return of 20 times
37:51the initial investment.
37:53So it's an impact that lasts beyond the program.
37:56So relatively with a modest upfront cost,
38:00we're creating a permanent shift
38:03in how a mother views entrepreneurship.
38:06You know,
38:06she's usually operating in a rural center,
38:09but what we do is we give her exposure to MNCs
38:12with a different market segment
38:14and their standards are different.
38:17So her horizon is broadened.
38:20So investing in women and trainees
38:23is not only really for herself,
38:25but it's really how she can further share
38:27that broadened horizon with her children
38:29and her communities as well.
38:31Absolutely.
38:32Because when you speak about the support system
38:35that goes into onboarding
38:37and ensuring that that first year happens,
38:40that is the true perhaps cost
38:43of starting out and sustaining.
38:46All right.
38:47So as we look at wrapping up the entire discussion,
38:50perhaps some last thoughts on
38:52where we're looking at in the arena
38:56of ensuring that economically uplifting
38:59our rural communities via MSMEs
39:02or other work, informal work, Alina,
39:05what does the direction look like
39:07for the year ahead?
39:08As much as we'd like to talk about numbers
39:12in terms of one year ahead,
39:14there's a lot going on.
39:16And I think some final words,
39:17it's to really define success.
39:20What does success look like for these communities?
39:24And for us, because a lot of people would ask,
39:26what are the outcomes?
39:27What is the revenue?
39:29What is the growth?
39:30And you know what?
39:31We need to stop there
39:32and start redefining what success is to them.
39:34And what we're seeing out there,
39:35some insights in the market,
39:36we need to put a lot more emphasis
39:38on coaching these communities.
39:41Empathy is huge.
39:42Empathy means it's not just feeling sorry,
39:44but you are actually walking aside by them
39:47and coaching them through that one year,
39:49through that second year.
39:50A lot of work needs to be done
39:52in terms of coaching.
39:53And mental health challenges,
39:56this is something that doesn't come up a lot
39:58because everyone's expecting numbers.
40:01Metrics, yes.
40:01But that is a huge metric
40:03which allows you to operate successfully
40:05as a business, perhaps.
40:06Absolutely.
40:07Alina, Colin, Ida,
40:09if only we had a little more time,
40:10but that's been an excellent, invigorating
40:12and very enlightening discussion.
40:14Thank you so much for your time today.
40:16Thank you very much.
40:17Well, that's all we have time for today
40:19on Nyaga Spotlight.
40:20With me, Tamina Kausdjee,
40:21we'll see you next week
40:23with more economic analysis and insights.
40:25And meanwhile,
40:26Selamat Hari Merdeka
40:27to every Malaysian out there.
40:28tell us about 2021.
40:29Thank you very much for our time,
40:30onator time.
40:31Thank you, sir.
40:38And we know people,
40:40that's what the topics of
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