- 11 months ago
Across 31 countries, half of people identify inequality as one of the most important problems facing their society. Malaysia is no exception with 6 in 10 identifying it as an important national issue and almost half say more must be done to address it, in line with global expectations for stronger action.
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00:00Thanks for joining the show, this is The Economy. I'm your host, Ibrahim Sani.
00:12Very recently, the world-renowned research house, Ipsos, has issued two publications that we need to discuss very urgently.
00:19The first is on populism, and the second is about equality.
00:21Regarding populism, their research has found that few Malaysians now believe that society is less broken compared to 2023.
00:28The proportion of Malaysians who think that the country is in decline has dropped by 12%, suggesting a positive shift in their outlook on the country's direction.
00:38This in contrast with Indonesia, who shows an increasing concern about their nation's society, and of course Thailand.
00:44The trend is also seen on their second research, which shows about the notion of equality,
00:50because 6 in 10 Malaysians see inequality as one of the more pressing issues that is above global average.
00:57But again, consistent with the other research, this is not as intense as it is in Indonesia and Thailand.
01:04So, from the research, we realise that nearly half of Malaysians believe that more must be done on addressing and promoting equality,
01:12echoing a global call for stronger action that is needed.
01:15To discuss this and more is their head of the Ipsos' Strategy 3 regional head, Kieran Jit Singh.
01:22Kieran Jit Singh, thank you very much for taking the time to speak with us.
01:25My pleasure, thanks.
01:26Let's do the big one here on the notion of equality.
01:34When we talk about equality, because populism needs to be discussed hand-in-hand,
01:39but why does Malaysia focus more on equality being an important problem to be resolved?
01:48And looking at your, I guess, highlight here, this is not seen across the globe or our nearest neighbour, Singapore,
01:56but is this something that we need to be addressing on the concept of more Malaysians feeling that more needs to be done for improving inequality?
02:04Sure. So, while most Malaysians right now feel that the country is moving in the right direction,
02:10but at the same time, they feel that the economy or the country is rigged towards the rich and the powerful, the elites.
02:17Okay.
02:17Right. And that is manifesting in many, many, many areas of how they're psychic.
02:25For example, even the justice system, they feel there's a two-tier justice system.
02:29One is for the common man, one is for the rich and powerful, right?
02:33And that is not a good sign in the long term, right?
02:37And there's also a generational divide, right?
02:40So, the Gen Zs and millennials are seeing inequality more on personal terms, right?
02:45Compared to the Gen X and baby boomers and so on.
02:49Yeah.
02:49So, the millennials and Gen Zs see that as more personal terms.
02:52And that is why, if you see in terms of violence, whether they can justify the means or not,
02:59most millennials and Gen Zs, at least 50% feel that violence is an okay solution,
03:06an okay step to restructure the system and so on.
03:10Whereas Gen Baby boomers, Gen Xs, overwhelmingly say violence is never an option.
03:16Sorry, this should be an interesting finding for you as well.
03:21Yes.
03:23Why does the younger generation feel that this is the cost of action or more comfortable
03:28to take this cost of action compared to early generation?
03:31Because they see it personally.
03:32Because if you see even in Malaysia, right?
03:34If you really see in inflation adjusted terms, more Malaysians who are entering the workforce
03:40are poorer off compared to their fathers and so on, right?
03:45And they're feeling it.
03:46So, there's more stress.
03:47I mean, my dad bought a house in Dabansara Heights for RM20,000.
03:51This was like 50 years ago.
03:53I mean, imagine getting that kind of house for that amount of money.
03:57That kind of inequality I see every day.
04:00Exactly.
04:01Yeah.
04:01So, that is why if you see in Nepal, right?
04:05The violence, I think about 70, 80 people died.
04:10And the millennials and Gen Z for whatever reason, didn't think too much about going
04:15to the extremes.
04:17And not just that, humiliating.
04:18Humilating.
04:19Yeah.
04:20Stripping the former minister naked, tossing him into the river.
04:24I mean, this is...
04:25So, in terms of violence...
04:26I don't know whether society needs to, I want to call that, is heading in the right
04:30direction if we think about it in that term.
04:33Yeah.
04:33And it has nothing to do with your left wing or right wing.
04:36It has to do with generation.
04:38So, you know, there's a horseshoe theory, right?
04:39So, the extreme right and extreme left are coming together.
04:43And both are saying the system is broken.
04:46But the solution is different.
04:47The right wing is obviously saying that they want more authoritarian, you know, forget about
04:51democracy and so on.
04:53Whereas in the left wing, it's more about socialism and so on, right?
04:58So, that's why Mamdani in New York, from being an unknown, right, is now the front runner
05:05for New York mayoral race.
05:07And, of course, simultaneously the assassination of Charles Kirk.
05:12has also drawn mixed responses in the U.S. and that cuts across generation, nothing
05:18to do with the left or right divide.
05:21Yeah, but it has to do with a bit of religion, a bit of geopolitics, you know what I mean?
05:25For example, if you see the right wing, and to some extent the left wing, are blaming Israel
05:32for having something to do with it.
05:34You know, like the Candace Owens, Dave Smith, and so on.
05:38Even the Congresswoman, Majority Taylor Greene, had somehow alluded to the fact that Charlie
05:46Kirk was not too happy with what Israel was doing, but he was under pressure to toe the line.
05:53So, it was an interesting debate.
05:55Again, horseshoe theory.
05:57Extreme left, extreme right are saying the system is broken.
06:00We need to do something about it.
06:01How does this then translate, I'm just going to go straight for the juggler here.
06:05How does this translate into investments, growth of opportunity for investors to come
06:10in across borders, impact on tariff, for instance, across the globe.
06:15How do businesses see this?
06:17Okay.
06:17I was in the Philippines last week, and I remember we had issues in Sri Lanka, then we
06:22had issues in Bangladesh, in Indonesia, then Nepal, right?
06:27So, I was trying to figure out where might be the next spot where we need to be of concern.
06:32I was in the Philippines last week, and there is a major, major corruption scandal happening
06:38there on floods.
06:40So, about two, three weeks back, there was a massive flood, and water was all over the
06:44place.
06:45These people were in convenience and so on, and they were asking, hey, you have promised
06:50us, you know, flood mitigation systems, you've been telling us this, you know, you have budgeted
06:55a couple of billions of dollars, what's happening?
06:57And they found out that the projects were actually paid, but never completed.
07:01They didn't even begin, so it was messy floods, right?
07:04So, not only anger was there, the activism among the young Filipinos was there, but also
07:10you see South Korea has now pulled back certain investments they want to do in the Philippines,
07:18because they feel that the corruption issues need to be managed first, before they will
07:23invest in a big way in the infrastructure in the Philippines.
07:26But things don't happen in a vacuum, if investors pull up from a certain market, they're shopping
07:30around for another market, then what would be the markets that they're looking at right
07:33now?
07:33I think they're looking for a bit more safe, safe haven, I wouldn't say safe havens, but
07:39areas where they feel they're, you know, they will see value.
07:42Okay.
07:43Because in the Philippines, although they have, you know, there's a lot of low manufacturing
07:47base, and so on, they're feeling that they're not, you know, even their self-power is not
07:52being helped by supporting a regime where corruption is paramount.
08:00Yeah.
08:01And comparing the rest of the markets in ASEAN, would you argue that Singapore, for instance,
08:06would fit that kind of bill, despite them having a higher, say, for instance, manufacturing
08:11cost, higher entry to business, do they still have an advantage, or would still, the low
08:19base countries, in terms of cost, are still going to win attraction from investors right
08:24now?
08:24I think low cost is not a, it's not a story which we should talk about, you know, for
08:29example, now, if you look into Malaysia, I think we have about 15 million labor force
08:34workers, right, labor force, right?
08:36But if you really see, it's more than 15 million, because in those days, we had this foreign
08:41labors, and, you know, I mean, you can always get people from Nepal, Bangladesh, whatever
08:45to come in, right?
08:46So actually, your labor force, or labor pool is actually wider than 14, 15 million, right?
08:51You know, you can see ASEAN in general, right?
08:53But now, with the age of AI, with the age of AI, I will argue that we have about 15 million
09:00or 60 million people in the labor pool, but then you should take into account, so AI, you
09:07know, the agentic AI, AI, for example, you look at many companies right now, the entry-level
09:13jobs have been frozen, and it's been replaced by AI tools.
09:19So actually, what is happening now is, in terms of labor force, in countries like Philippines,
09:24I was in Philippines last week, the businesses of KPO and BPO were very worried, and that's
09:30the mainstay of the Philippines economy in many ways, right?
09:33How will AI come in and disrupt the whole economy?
09:38So we have to, low cost is never a winning proposition these days.
09:43Governance, governance, ease of doing business, is the bigger driver.
09:48Justice system and recourse.
09:49Justice system, recourse.
09:51Wow.
09:52Yeah.
09:52I'm sorry.
09:53That would, I would like to then posit the idea that Malaysia would stand better in terms
09:58of those kind of elements compared to our neighbors, no?
10:01Well, depending on whether you have a glass half full or half empty, right?
10:05You know what I mean?
10:07If you see, I think even Malaysians, they are a bit skeptical about the jury system, right?
10:16So if Malaysians themselves are not 100% comfortable with the jury system, right?
10:22How, whether we have a fair and equal society, again, as I mentioned, right?
10:27A two-tier justice system, right?
10:31So, you know, if Malaysians itself are a bit skeptical, what about the foreigners, right?
10:37Foreign investors.
10:39One thing that I want to highlight or draw attention to, particularly for the viewers enjoying
10:44this conversation, is that the Ipso study finds that Gen Z and baby boomers show a strong belief
10:49in meritocracy, while millennials and genetics are more likely to highlight barriers beyond
10:54their control.
10:55This whole idea of your notion that they're losing control, I suppose, and the need for
11:01them to take back.
11:02Is this going to be prevalent, maybe, across the entire generation of their being?
11:07Or is this a flash in a pan kind of moment?
11:10Now they're feeling this, they might change their perception of view, you know, later
11:14on as they mature.
11:16Okay.
11:17It's very hard for me to conclude that, right?
11:20Because, you know, what you are 20 years old, when you become 40, 50, different, right?
11:25Typically, you become more conservative.
11:26But what is different now is, typically, a young adult, they are much more liberal when
11:31they're in their 20s, and they become more conservative when they reach the 40, 50s, and 60s,
11:36and so on.
11:37But what we are seeing now is, especially young men, young men, they are much more conservative,
11:43even at their early age.
11:45When they're 20, 25 already, they are very much more right-wing or very more conservative
11:49in terms of how they see things, right?
11:52Bigotry, xenophobia, and so on.
11:56It's commonplace among the young males.
11:59That's one thing.
12:00So it cuts across all countries.
12:02Now, interesting about China.
12:04So if we look at China, about 15 years ago, if you see a survey, what will drive success?
12:12So if we ask the Chinese citizens, they say hard work, talent, you know, working hard,
12:19and so on, right?
12:20But in 2024, maybe, ask the same question.
12:23What will drive success?
12:24Because connections, coming from a rich family, is knowing more about who you know than what
12:30you know, and so on.
12:31So even in countries like China, there's a shift in terms of, you know, what will drive success?
12:38We all know the story of Andrew Tate as a symbol.
12:42Not just, not Mr. Andrew Tate, but that idea of male supremacy, very driven towards a particular
12:53slant of view on women, and so on.
12:55And do you think that that kind of view is now impacting markets like China, for instance?
13:00Maybe not to say...
13:01Korea, yes.
13:02I'm not sure about China, but Korea for sure.
13:05Remember, about a few months back, there was impeachment of the president?
13:09Yes.
13:10It started off where everybody was kind of not sure what stand to take.
13:15Yeah.
13:16But at the later stage, you found a man was supporting the impeached president, whereas
13:23women were once seemed to be...
13:25Retained.
13:26No, toppled.
13:27Oh, toppled, okay.
13:28Okay?
13:28Okay.
13:29So there was divergence in terms of how young Koreans, male Koreans, and female Koreans saw
13:37whether he's a good guy or a bad guy.
13:39So there was clear divergence in terms of how people view things now.
13:43So we come back to Andrew Tate, Joe Rogan, and so on, right?
13:48You know, they will say that the last election in the US was a podcast election or a manosphere
13:53election, correct?
13:55And it was interesting.
13:57After the last election, the Democratic Party came out with a program or retreat, how to talk
14:07to young men.
14:08So they have an actual program on how to talk to young men.
14:13Okay?
14:13So even the Democratic Party are seeing that they're losing out, you know...
14:18To that particular demographic.
14:20That demographic.
14:21You know what I mean?
14:22Is it here in Malaysia as well?
14:24It's too early to say, but we'll just see.
14:27If you go to any higher education institutions, you'll find that about 60-70% of all the students
14:33are females, correct?
14:34I've been given a lot of talks in universities, in public universities recently.
14:39And there was one university.
14:43There was a lecture.
14:4580% were female.
14:46And they were all sitting in front.
14:48Okay.
14:48The boys, I couldn't find it.
14:51They were hiding behind it at about 30%.
14:52Near the walls, yeah.
14:53You know what I mean?
14:54The walls hiding there.
14:55You know what I mean?
14:56Now, what happens is that more female graduates, when they graduate, they work in an office
15:02environment.
15:04Whereas males, many of them, first of all, they don't go into tertiary education.
15:08But even if they come out, they work in the blue-collar works.
15:14Got it.
15:15For example, the gig economy, whatever.
15:16Am I right?
15:16Now, so...
15:20Broadly speaking and generalizing, yes.
15:22But also, there's some truth in that as well.
15:25Because the thing is about work, right?
15:27It's not only about income.
15:28It's also social esteem.
15:30Isn't it?
15:32And you find there's a lot of frustration.
15:35If you ask any guards in any condominium, any guards in any condominium, you'll find that
15:42amount of confrontation they have with the delivery riders is increasing.
15:48Because there's a lot of frustration, right?
15:52You ask any guards.
15:54Any TikTok, you know, FYP would see these altercations taking place.
15:59Sometimes it moves into very violent altercations.
16:01Yes.
16:03So because the social esteem is important, right?
16:08Social mobility is also important.
16:12Nations generally view ourselves as middle class.
16:14We never say we are poor.
16:18We always say middle class.
16:20Am I right?
16:20You ask anyone.
16:22Even those in the B40, they say they're middle class.
16:24I had Kazana Research Institute folks here on the show as well.
16:28They were talking about this as well.
16:29At length, actually.
16:30About the middle class notion.
16:31Yes, you're right.
16:31So middle class.
16:32So as middle class, it's not only about whether you're B40, M40.
16:38It's about aspirational.
16:40Whether the things you want to do, right?
16:42Whether you're buying more aspirational products and so on.
16:45But at the moment, when they are being forced to go the other way,
16:51buy cheaper alternatives.
16:52I mean, I remember I was speaking to this lady.
16:57She said, you know, I used to buy a certain brand of coffee.
17:00But because the coffee is so price, expensive,
17:03now I'm going to buy some unknown brand.
17:05Yeah.
17:06You know what I mean?
17:07And for basic item like coffee.
17:09She said I'm a middle class, but it's basic thing which coffee.
17:12And every morning I drink coffee in the morning before I go work,
17:15I realize that I have to compromise on the basic items.
17:19And that is not a good sign, right?
17:21It's not.
17:22And you can just extrapolate something as basic as that to more, I guess,
17:27productive means of delivery of being efficient from technology products
17:32to vehicles and stuff like that.
17:33Yes.
17:34Revolutions are never, you know, it doesn't start with a big thing.
17:37It always starts with a small spark, right?
17:38Speaking of which, let's talk about the populism study then.
17:40Sure.
17:41As Per mentioned earlier on in the interview, the key highlight is, of course,
17:46few Malaysians now believe that society is broken compared to 2023, for instance.
17:50There's also another highlight that Ipsos finds that, however,
17:53many Malaysians feel that the country is largely influenced by the elites
17:56and rigged to benefit the rich and powerful, as what you have alluded to.
18:00The subtext here is that Indonesia and Thailand show consistently high levels of agreement to
18:05this notion and significantly exceeding global average on both statements,
18:10but we're not far behind.
18:13We're not far behind.
18:13And how is this giving the signal towards, you know, politicians, public policies,
18:21as well as governmental monies?
18:24We saw the recent budget as well reflecting the need to appease the populace.
18:30Some would argue that it's a populist budget.
18:34So how does this tie up with public policy then?
18:37And, of course, later on, the follow-up is on businesses.
18:40How do they look at this moving forward?
18:42So I was speaking to some policymakers recently and I told them that
18:48I don't think Malaysia is any different than the rest of ASEAN.
18:52Maybe we are one percentage, a couple of percentage, up or down, whatever, right?
18:56But it's the same bucket.
18:57It's the same bucket, between 60% to 80%.
18:59So 60% to 80% feel that the economy is rigged towards the rich and powerful.
19:07Inequality is an issue.
19:08So about what is a bit surprising among Malaysians is they are okay.
19:15In fact, they are welcoming a strong leader to come in who is willing to break the rules
19:20to fix the system.
19:22About half of Malaysians believe there is a need for a strong leader to fix the country.
19:26Malaysia shows a stable level of agreement compared to 2023,
19:29indicating consistent desire for a strong leader who is willing to break the rules.
19:33By definition, this is Trump or Hitler.
19:37I don't know which one is which we are talking about here.
19:40Or Gandhi.
19:42I don't know.
19:42I mean, Gandhi also fits his bill or Mandela, whatever it is.
19:45It could be.
19:46But basically, somebody to change the system.
19:48Yeah.
19:48Am I right?
19:49If you see in UK right now, Rishi Sunak didn't do so well, right?
19:55Then KST is also bringing on to life.
19:58So if we were to do election today, I will be, if I'm a gambling man,
20:03I will say Nigel Farage will probably win the elections right now.
20:08Right?
20:08Yeah.
20:08And the worst part about all this is what you just said is that not many people will disagree with you.
20:13This is the worst part about what you just said.
20:14Yes.
20:15So even Malaysia, they're not asking their leaders to do something illegal,
20:18but willing to take a bold stand to make some changes.
20:24Yes.
20:25So leadership, strong leadership is super important.
20:28So summer election is in the air.
20:30Yes.
20:32Many political parties are now making a lot of notions that they want to do this, that, and all.
20:40Are they making the right moves to win the hearts of the population there?
20:44Or do you still think that these kind of statements so far that we have heard across the political spectrum
20:50is still not enough in trying to address what the research has shown,
20:55i.e. believing that there is a need for a strong leader to emerge?
20:58Yes, there is.
20:59So we have done a couple of in-depth look at Sabah, and there's a lot of frustration.
21:06There was one quote which somebody said that, you know, we were promised good schools, good roads,
21:13but by the way, it was dry pipes and potholes.
21:15And flooding.
21:16And flooding.
21:16And flooding.
21:17Remember, in Philippines, there's a big drama right now.
21:20It's because of flooding.
21:22Okay?
21:22Because when your property is flooded, you know, your cars are flooded and so on,
21:27and you're really struggling and so on.
21:28And promises were made, you know, elections after elections, by every political leader
21:34that things will change and get better.
21:36But it's not getting better, right?
21:38The good thing is the Sabahans are still optimistic that the federal government will do something
21:46and they will do a better job than the local politicians.
21:50So do you think that, say, for instance, federal parties or Semenanjung parties would see some form of gain
21:59in the Sabah elections?
22:01You know, Ipsos is not a habit of political polling.
22:04Yeah.
22:04But I'm just stating as what we're seeing right now, the trust towards federal politicians is higher
22:13than the trust towards the local politicians.
22:16Let's go back to the core competency of Ipsos.
22:17Does this also mean that companies who have a stronger brand promise towards a particular belief
22:25or a particular ideal would stand to win at the marketplace compared to brands
22:29that are pretty much silent on this issue?
22:34I'm thinking of Patagonia, for instance.
22:36Okay, yes and no.
22:37Okay.
22:37Because you've got to walk the talk.
22:41Okay?
22:43With social media, you can only mask your...
22:47noble intentions to some extent.
22:49Am I right?
22:51I would say that if...
22:53If...
22:54If you know social media, if you follow TikTok and so on,
22:57companies which are advocating on ESG and so on,
23:02but then they're paying off people at the same time.
23:06You know, it defeats the purpose, correct?
23:09So the mixed messaging...
23:10Mixed messaging...
23:11The hypocrisy, I suppose.
23:12Hypocrisy and so on.
23:13So now, I was...
23:16Is productivity the only measure of success of a company?
23:19Now with AI, there's a lot of conversation...
23:23You know, there's a buzzword.
23:25Future ready.
23:26We're trying to be future ready.
23:28Future proofing.
23:29Huh?
23:30Future proofing as well.
23:31Future...
23:31Yeah.
23:31But now, lately I've been reading a couple of reports.
23:36Future ready.
23:36I know, there's a code word for...
23:40You know what?
23:41We're going to get more AI involved and less...
23:44Human.
23:45Yes.
23:45Yeah.
23:46So, I think, yes.
23:49In theory, in theory,
23:52companies which have done well
23:55in being sincere in what they're doing, correct?
23:59They will do well in the long run.
24:03But not only on the environmental side,
24:05but also on the social side and the governance side.
24:08Let's land this conversation.
24:09So does this mean that public policy
24:11will steer towards more populistic notion?
24:14Or are they going to be grounded?
24:15They have to do what they believe the thing is right?
24:18Or are we going to see more and more markets
24:20shift towards populism
24:22and stronger leaders to emerge
24:24from the political spectrum?
24:25I will answer your question by saying that
24:28whenever I read reports by World Bank or IMF,
24:31I love their analysis.
24:33But often, I disagree with their recommendations.
24:36Okay?
24:37So I think policymakers are not economists.
24:41Policymakers should have
24:43the right-hand concern paramount.
24:47Isn't it?
24:48So the decisions made by the policymakers
24:52should reflect the pain points
24:55of their run yet.
24:56So like I said,
24:58World Bank, IMF,
24:59or any other think tanks
25:01are very good in terms of analysis.
25:03But sometimes,
25:04I will not take their recommendations
25:06lock stock in my role.
25:08Yeah.
25:08Yeah.
25:08Thank you very much
25:10with this very riveting conversation.
25:12That was Kiran Jit Singh,
25:14the Ipsos Strategy 3 regional head.
25:16You can find out more
25:18about what they do
25:18and the kind of research
25:19that they produce
25:20over at their website.
25:22And you can also look back
25:24to the interview that I had
25:26with the group CEO
25:27a few months ago that I did.
25:30These are the kind of conversations
25:31that are going to be carried forward
25:31here on S Rawani
25:33and also on this show.
25:35And of course,
25:35stay tuned with us
25:36for future programming.
25:38Thank you very much for watching.
25:38Catch you in the next one.
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