- 6 weeks ago
In this episode of Life Confessions, Teach For Malaysia CEO Chan Soon Seng opens up about the emotional toll of fighting for education reform, the myths we believe about underserved students, and the slow, often invisible nature of real change.
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00:00We have the most equipped young people to make a difference.
00:03How do we enable and empower them to make the difference that they can make?
00:07And they will do so much more than we could have ever done.
00:10We want to see a day where every child in Malaysia, no matter their background,
00:14that they have the opportunity to realize their potential because they've received quality education.
00:19In Malaysia, one in five students don't make it past high school and hadn't learned how to read and write at 16.
00:25How is that even possible?
00:26Exactly. And so that's a system failure, right?
00:29We should think about, and this is politically sensitive,
00:34what does it look like if states had more autonomy in determining their education for students?
00:47And welcome back to another episode of Life Confessions.
00:52Another guest joins us, someone who has a lot of knowledge about knowledge.
00:56We have our CEO of Teach for Malaysia, Chan Sunsing, joining us.
01:02Thanks, Sunsing, for being here.
01:03Thanks for having me.
01:04Now, Sunsing, you've been CEO of Teach for Malaysia now for how many years?
01:08It's been five years.
01:10Wow.
01:10As CEO.
01:11As CEO of five years.
01:12And how long have you been involved with Teach for Malaysia?
01:14I've been with Teach for Malaysia for just over 13 years now, the age of a teenage child.
01:20I was a teacher in our first cohort back in 2012.
01:24So I taught for two years in a high-needs school.
01:27I had quit my job thinking I would contribute two years to national service, make a difference in the lives of kids.
01:32Always thinking that I would go back to a corporate job, but no, it changed my life.
01:38And 13 years later, here I am.
01:4113 years later.
01:42Now, if you're speaking to someone and explaining what Teach for Malaysia is, like a person who had no idea, how would you explain what you do at Teach for Malaysia, what it does?
01:52Yeah. You know, we really believe that if we want a more prosperous future, if we want a society that works for all, it really starts with education.
02:03And we want to see a day where every child in Malaysia, no matter their background, that they have the opportunity to realize their potential because they've received quality education.
02:13But the reality is that in Malaysia, one in five students don't make it past high school.
02:20And if we look at our international benchmarks, almost 60% of 15-year-olds don't meet minimum proficiency ratings on reading benchmarks.
02:3415, that's Form 3.
02:35Form 3.
02:36At Form 3, many of them can't even...
02:38Meet the minimum proficiency levels.
02:40And at primary school before the pandemic of 2019, 42% of 10-year-olds couldn't meet the minimum proficiency comprehension levels.
02:54And what's happened over the last couple of years, as we might all remember, is this thing called the pandemic.
03:00And while we might, you know, feel like that's a thing of the past, the reality is that many students today are experiencing the effects of that pandemic and actually their learning has been set back even further.
03:13And so what do we do about all of this, right?
03:15I think that we have huge education challenges in Malaysia.
03:18And what Teach for Malaysia hopes to do is to, you know, really call on our most promising young people to serve the nation and do something about this challenge.
03:30And so we look for, you know, our most promising and diverse young people from diverse fields to commit just two years of their career to serve in some of the most high-need schools in the country.
03:42So we work in urban poor areas, we work in rural parts of the country, we work with indigenous communities through the public education system.
03:51So Teach for Malaysia recruits who we call fellows into our fellowship program.
03:56And they're placed in a Ministry of Education school for two years looking to transform outcomes for their students and address issues and challenges that they see on the ground.
04:07It's a leadership development program because we want people to come up with unique solutions to the unique challenges that they see.
04:14And then beyond those two years, we support Teach for Malaysia alumni to pursue, you know, positions that will help them to continue to contribute towards transforming the education system at large.
04:28Right. You yourself, when you first joined Teach for Malaysia, was it because you genuinely believed the education system could be transformed?
04:35Or was it more sparked by a personal frustration with the system that you experienced as you were growing up?
04:41Yeah, I'd say it's a little bit, a little bit of both and maybe kind of from a flipped perspective.
04:46So I think first from there, there was this, you know, young naivete of like, I want to make a difference in the world.
04:54Right. And I think that so many of our young people feel that way and feel like they can shape a better Malaysia and a better world, but often don't have the opportunity to do so.
05:03Right. But I was kind of really engaged in this idea of, OK, I want to contribute and I want to make a difference.
05:08And the idea of doing that alongside a cohort or a group of other young people was something that was really exciting to me.
05:14And but also on the flip side, I had these frustrations with what I was seeing play out in the education system.
05:26I was very lucky to grow up very privileged and I went to a top international school in Malaysia.
05:34But my younger brother, the gap between him and me is 15 years.
05:39Wow.
05:40And my parents had spent all of their life savings on you.
05:44My sister and my education. And when he started going to school, he went through the public school system.
05:49And I saw the vast difference between his education experience versus what I had received.
05:56And I felt that there was this huge injustice that because at that time, my parents, I mean, they worked and spent their life savings, but they could afford to send us to this certain type of school.
06:07We had different, a totally different education experience versus what my brother was experiencing in school.
06:13And I was so frustrated, right, because he would be going to school and, you know, he's this standard one kid.
06:19He's got this heavy bag filled with textbooks.
06:22When I went to school, I didn't have homework till I was like in year four.
06:25But my brother, you know, first week of school and he's got all at the time it's it's kind of changed now.
06:30But at the time, he had all this homework and he was really stressed about going to school at seven years old.
06:36And he had this heavy bag and he would come home from school and he would struggle with his homework.
06:42He wouldn't know what to do.
06:43But I would sit down with him and I would tutor him for 15 minutes and he would get it and he'd be able to do his homework.
06:49So it made me ask the question, like, what's not happening at school for him?
06:52Right. And why does he need all of this additional support when that was what I would imagine the school system would be doing for him?
07:00And so it was that kind of frustration coupled with this, you know, dream that Teach from Malaysia sold of like, you know, we can change things.
07:07We can make things better for kids.
07:09Was a part of it also maybe a little bit of personal guilt because you got to experience an education that was in a way so much more superior to what he was going through?
07:24Absolutely. Absolutely.
07:25And I feel like it was this idea that that that that me being able to experience that was an injustice.
07:31Right. Because it should not be for the fact that we had additional resources at that time that I was able to receive that kind of education.
07:39And I just felt that, you know, that the that a quality education and an education where kids love learning and are inspired by their learning is something that every child deserves.
07:53And just because you have less money, you should not be denied that opportunity.
07:58Or at the very least, the discrepancy shouldn't be that large between an international school and a public school.
08:06Right. Many people feel passionate about social issues, but very few actually choose to dedicate their full time careers to actually pursuing the change.
08:17What do you think pushed you into turning this into a career now that you have for 15, 15 years?
08:24Yeah. 13 plus years. Almost coming to 15.
08:27But, you know, I think that it's interesting because I think that really more and more so, you know, as a as a as humanity, I think that we face these existential crises ahead of us.
08:41And I think more so than ever, we need our most talented, our most passionate, our most brilliant young people or not just young people, but, you know, people to be solving the issues that matter the most for society.
08:57But I think the reality is that our system actually isn't set up to do that.
09:02And so there's this historian called Rutger Bregman. He recently published a book called Moral Ambition.
09:09So this was the guy that went to Davos and like called out all the billionaires are flying talking about climate change, but flying in on their personal jets.
09:16So he wrote this book, published this book recently called Moral Ambition, and he talks about this idea that we need this idea that we need our most brilliant people to be addressing our biggest challenges.
09:26But if you look at the way that the system is set up, 45 percent of if we take Harvard as an example, where you presume that, you know, your your most brilliant people are going to 45 percent of people of graduates from Harvard end up in what he calls the Bermuda Triangle of Talents,
09:43which is consulting, finance, banking and corporate law. Right.
09:47And if we apply that to Malaysia, maybe we replace that with, you know, finance, consulting and oil and gas, let's say, in our context. Right.
09:55But really, the system is set up to to incentivize our most talented people to go into industries that are not not inherently not inherently bad or evil,
10:06but who have the resources to call on these people to serve in those organizations.
10:14Right. And so McKinsey, I think, coined this term called the war for talent, where you want to where basically there's limited there's a limited pool of, you know, these top, top graduates.
10:28And companies then need to invest and fight this war, basically, to ensure that they have top talent in their organizations.
10:35Right.
10:35So if the private sector is going out and playing the war for talent, the reality is that that's not how I think the social sector is traditionally thought about their role in enlisting our most promising young people into the sector.
10:51Right. And are not really playing the war for talent game.
10:55Right. And so I think that we need to enable young people or just people at all to have meaningful platforms that enable them to make impact and feel like they are also progressing in their career.
11:10Right.
11:11And so that's what we hope to do at Teach from Malaysia, right, to enlist people into this mission, but also give them the development and support that will help them to pursue whatever career path that they want to pursue.
11:24Right. Whether that is continuing on in education, whether that is pursuing a career in the corporate sector in the long run.
11:33Make it a viable option for them to pursue and see a long term career in it that would seem more attractive than it would seem it stands at this point, at least.
11:46Yeah. And we're really calling on young people to teach first, right, out of university, because I think a lot of people have this notion that, oh, you know, let me climb the corporate ladder first.
11:59And then maybe when I've made my first million or maybe when I'm 40 years old and I'm more established in life that I can contribute back then.
12:07But the reality is that that really doesn't happen. And only in a very, very small minority does that happen.
12:15Because once the train leaves and starts heading in a direction, it's hard to turn off the tracks.
12:22Absolutely. And the whole system is incentivized to keep you on the track.
12:26Right. And so we're saying contribute two years of of your life first.
12:31Right. Make that impact that you believe is that you believe is so dear to your heart, but also develop the skills that will enable you to progress into whatever sector you want in the future.
12:41And that's what the Teach for Malaysia Fellowship aims to do.
12:45Right.
12:46The reality is, though, or what happens is so for people like me who have this idea that I'm just going to do two years,
12:55is that actually that two year experience really does change you because you have a firsthand experience of the inequities in the country.
13:03But you are and and that that looks like understanding what the life of a student growing up in poverty looks like from a firsthand experience.
13:12Right. The challenges that it takes, the challenges that these kids need to overcome just to kind of survive within the education system.
13:20But also at the same time, you you experience the ability to affect change and you experience what it's like when, you know, students who have to overcome great odds do overcome those odds.
13:35And so that that experience is life changing.
13:38And so 70 percent of the alumni of Teach for Malaysia actually remain within the education sector at large,
13:44maybe not necessarily teaching in school, but within the education sector at large.
13:49And then some will go on to do, you know, oil and gas.
13:53Yeah.
13:54But 70 percent is a huge ratio or percentage of people to continue wanting to make a change in the education system
14:03because they've seen how rewarding it is for both them and the people that they that they help.
14:08Right.
14:08Right. It's I'm sure you've heard people tell you that seeing you do what you do can be inspiring for people who are not even involved in Teach for Malaysia
14:20to then want to get involved in some sort of capacity when it comes to our education system.
14:25Right. You've had a front row seat to the gaps.
14:28In fact, in Malaysia's education system, in your view, what's the most urgent issue that doesn't get enough attention?
14:36Yeah. I think that from from our perspective, like everything rises and falls in this idea that the quality of education cannot see the cannot exceed the quality of its teaching
14:48and therefore the quality of our teachers. Right.
14:51And I think that oftentimes when we talk about education in the media, there are a lot of sensationalized ideas about education.
15:01And we talk about a lot of things that can seem very tangible. Right.
15:06And so whether it is curriculum issues, whether it is I think this this isn't these are all important issues.
15:13Right. But I think that they are kind of a bit more on the surface and not not getting to where we need the discourse to be.
15:21So whether it's curriculum issues, the language that we choose to teach in or whether it's the infrastructure of the school or things like that,
15:29those are all important issues. But I think we kind of get stuck there.
15:32And really what we need to be talking about is the is how are we supporting our teachers to be the best that they can be?
15:38And I think that when we if the quality of the education system cannot exceed the quality of its teachers, we need to then double down on how we support teachers.
15:48And I think there's three aspects that we have to consider when we think about quality education.
15:52Number one, we constantly need to be attracting our top talent into the system.
15:58How do we attract the best and brightest to become teachers within within the system?
16:03So the Ministry of Education, you know, over 10 years ago, revised the criteria to ensure that they're recruiting from the top 20 percent of SPM graduates.
16:13Right. And then there are programs like Teach from Malaysia that are incentivizing people to come from diverse backgrounds to come into the into the profession.
16:23But we really need to double down on what that means. Right.
16:26Because until you have a day where currently the reality is most parents who come from a certain level of privilege will not be telling their kids to to become a teacher.
16:39And so until you're seeing people like the leaders of of corporate organizations that are encouraging their kids to become teachers, then we've still got a gap towards that.
16:51You know, in the in the UK, our part Teach from Malaysia is part of a global network and Teach First in the UK.
16:57Tony Blair's son, the former prime minister of the UK, he did the program in the UK.
17:02He became a teacher and taught for two years.
17:05And so we until we're able to sort of change the psyche of society about the value and importance of of the profession and how we truly need our most our best and brightest, our most diverse people to come in, people with the highest levels of privilege and people who have a lived experience of the most challenging backgrounds in society coming together.
17:30Then we were not there yet. The second. So attract the best and brightest.
17:35Number two is really how do we reward and retain our most committed and capable teachers.
17:42So part of the challenge with the education system now is that it's a civil service employment.
17:49So as civil servants, teachers will traditionally go through a time based progression system.
17:57So it takes eight years for your first promotion as a teacher or as a civil servant in general.
18:03Eight years.
18:04Yeah. So there are fast tracks for some people.
18:06Let's say within five years, some people can progress faster, but that's a very, very tiny minority.
18:12And so it is not a merit based progression.
18:15So how do you then ensure that your most talented people within the system are actually progressing into leadership positions or positions where they can make more impact in a more efficient way?
18:26That's something that we need to do better at.
18:28And then the third thing that when we think about the quality of teachers is how do we keep them at the top of their game?
18:36Because the reality is the world is changing so fast.
18:39The things that kids care about changes so fast.
18:43AI is completely disrupting the society as well as education.
18:48And we cannot then expect teachers to rely on their pre-service training, their education degree that they did maybe 10, 20 years ago and rely on that investment to then make a difference today.
19:03And so if we look at the line item in the budget on the ministry's professional development line item, in this year's budget, it's 19 million ringgit.
19:13You divide that by the 416, I think it's 417,000 teachers now.
19:17You get about under 50 ringgit per teacher per year for professional development.
19:22If we look at the minimum HRDF contribution, it's 1% of wages that companies are expected to contribute to HRDF, right?
19:30So you times 1% against the ministry of education's wages, the ministry should be investing at least, at the minimum, at least 470 million ringgit versus the 19 million ringgit that it currently invests in professional development.
19:47So if we expect our teachers to stay at the top of their game, we need to support them to be up there by providing the professional development that will make that difference.
19:56So those three things, I think, are key, but we are not talking about that in our public discourse because we get caught up with a lot of these other things that are more tangible and seem to be more, quote unquote, important.
20:13Does it seem intentional that we are not talking about it?
20:17No, I don't think that it's intentional.
20:19I just think that we, for lack of understanding, right?
20:22Because I think that, for example, as a parent, obviously you will care about the tangible issues that you experience, right?
20:29And so whether it's a curriculum issue, oh, my child didn't get taught this, my child needs to get taught like financial literacy, da, da, da, da, da, da.
20:36But actually, a lot of these things exist in our curriculum.
20:38There is financial literacy in the curriculum.
20:40It's just the way that our students are actually engaged to and are they deeply engaged in those topics so that they actually understand it and are able to apply it in real life versus memorize it and regurgitate it on an examination.
20:55And then the other thing, big ticket issue item is like, there are no more exams.
20:59How do I know whether my kid is learning or not?
21:01I think that's a valid concern.
21:03So I apologize if that sounds like I'm not taking that seriously.
21:07But I think that we have to go beyond these conversations if we want to talk about the real issues.
21:12It sounds like the root of what you're saying is that teachers are also students because as a teacher, in order to teach, you also need to be able to constantly learn and be a student yourself so that you can be a better teacher.
21:29Sure. So I think this conversation can be uncomfortable for a lot of people because nobody wants to say teachers are bad.
21:36But the thing is, a teacher doesn't have to be bad.
21:39They just need to be able to improve no matter how good or lacking the abilities they are, that they might be inherently there or whether they were taught that way.
21:52But to be able to constantly learn is something that needs to be included.
21:56Yeah, because you can be the best teacher today, but by next year, if you're not upskilling yourself, then you're out of date.
22:03So it's not about whether a teacher is good or bad. You're absolutely right.
22:06Aside from that, what does education reform look like to your real education reform, aside from being able to produce teachers that are even better than what they are right now?
22:15So, I mean, I think that, so when I think about education reform, I think there are sort of three things that from teacher from Malaysia's perspective that we would think about, right?
22:27The first thing, kind of doubling back onto that piece of teachers, I think real reform in education, the real changes that we need to see in education is actually a human capital transformation.
22:38It's a HR transformation exercise, right?
23:08And that is a huge, huge, huge, huge, huge HR transformation exercise.
23:14Currently, to get to become a principal in Malaysia, traditionally, yeah, it takes 25 years of experience to reach the level, to reach the grade, the employment grade, to be able to become a principal.
23:31So if you can imagine, like, there are so many young CEOs that are out there that are under the age of 40, right?
23:41There are virtually no principals, or I mean, very, very few, but virtually no principals under the age of 40 in Malaysia.
23:50And so how do we ensure that we are getting our most ambitious and most talented into positions where they can make the biggest difference possible for them, right?
24:02And then I think alongside that, which will link to my second point is, how are we operating in a way in which the people who are making decisions closest to the ground are empowered to make those decisions?
24:19So the reality now is that as education is a matter of the, is a federal matter, it is controlled from Putrajaya top down to the schools.
24:28And so every decision that's made at a school level, someone from Putrajaya can scrutinize that and then, and they feel beholden to the powers that be above them.
24:39From the school level, whether it's the district education office, to the state education office, to the federal departments, they all have a chain of commands that is tightly controlled.
24:50And if someone messes up here, someone up here can make a command and, and, and everyone down here then lives in fear about what this person, this person, and this person say to them.
25:01And so they are then making choices that are not necessarily, uh, obviously I think people on the ground are always trying to make choices with their students' best interests in mind, but they're also making choices of, yes, my students, but what will PPD and JPN and the Ministry of Education say?
25:19And even if they, therefore, then if they feel like there's a choice that will make more sense for their kids, but actually JPN or PPD is going to disagree with it, the state and the district office disagrees with it, they will then defer to the authority that is there, right?
25:34And so how do you transform the organizational culture of the ministry such that actually people who are closest to the decisions that matter to students are empowered to make those decisions?
25:45And how do you then foster that culture of learning across the, across, um, the ministry?
25:52Because currently a lot of it is very, um, uh, uh, a lot, a lot of the sort of culture is very punitive consequences.
26:02So if someone doesn't comply, then they're threatened with a punitive consequence versus how are we learning?
26:08And then learning from mistakes, learning from choices that we've made and feeling then empowered to make a better choice in the future.
26:16So that is an organizational transformation.
26:19That's a HR transformation that needs to happen.
26:21But that then links to the second point, which is actually like, because everything is so federally controlled, you maintain this top-down hierarchical culture.
26:30We should think about, and this is politically sensitive, what does it look like if states had more autonomy in determining their education, uh, uh, for students, right?
26:43And so, for example, in Australia, education is a matter of the state, right?
26:47And so when you think about hiring teachers, when you think about, um, some influence to the curriculum, federal can always maintain, um, the broad set of student outcomes and the broad learning, learning outcomes that students need.
27:00But how that gets translated to the local level, um, is, uh, uh, should, there should be some level of local, a lot more.
27:10I mean, there is some level already, but there must be more empowerment at the local level to make that truly meaningful for kids.
27:16A bit more independence when it comes to being, making decisions.
27:20Yeah.
27:20And even at the school level.
27:22So for example, now, if you're the, uh, if you're a school principal, um, so you, you just imagine as the leader of any organization, the most important thing is your ability to build an amazing team, right?
27:32And how you do that is being able to select the people on your team.
27:37And when people aren't performing to be able to support their development or to exit them if they aren't performing, right?
27:44Every CEO, uh, every leader of any organization needs to have those, those, those autonomies in order to be an effective leader.
27:53But the reality is that as a, as a school leader in Malaysia, you don't get to pick your team.
27:58Um, teachers are assigned to you through the federal system.
28:03You don't have a choice in your teachers.
28:05They just turn up and like, these are the teachers that are made assigned to you.
28:08Right.
28:08Um, and so you don't have the ability to select your team.
28:11You don't have the ability, um, uh, to, to manage the performance of your team in the way that you would typically have, let's say, in a corporate organization.
28:20Right.
28:21Right.
28:21So how do we empower the state, but also at the school levels, um, to, uh, to really, um, be able to make the decisions that matter the most?
28:32It sounds like merit-based incentives would be one of the core things to actually employ to help with this situation.
28:45Because if time is the only factor that actually determines the progress of a person through the education, as an educator, then merit-based incentives would then draw more people in who are interested in a career that is not only going to help students, but also help them progress.
29:11Yeah.
29:11But are we anywhere near something?
29:13Yeah.
29:13So the, the reality is, is actually like when you think about, um, the, the, um, the policy design of the ministry, actually, um, a lot of the systems are in place.
29:27So if you think about performance management, um, the ministry of education will be able to tick all the boxes.
29:32They do do a relatively holistic performance management, um, a review of teachers, uh, every year, right.
29:40Which includes, um, which includes, um, an observation of their teaching practice, um, which includes feedback from their head of department.
29:47And so ultimately the school principal will decide that.
29:49So the reality is that on paper, um, we do have the systems that are in place, but fundamentally the time-based system is ultimately what, uh, um, progresses teachers.
30:01So for example, if a teacher gives you like, like 90% all the time on your, which is actually the majority of performance ratings, um, but if you get 90% on your performance rating every year, you're still going to only go up in eight years.
30:14Um, and then you have to, there are special fast tracks that recognize you based on merit.
30:20There are, but those are very, very, very limited.
30:23Um, so it's not versus if you flip that where your fundamental progression is based on merit.
30:30Right.
30:31Versus, um, uh, the fact that you will always go up, uh, in, in eight years time.
30:36Um, so you, the, the systems do assess capability, um, but they're not incentivizing the system as a whole to progress.
30:44Based on merit.
30:46Definitely something that needs to be looked into and given more thought and possibly some change.
30:54Um, do you feel the government genuinely values input from organizations like, um, Teach for Malaysia or is civil society still largely seen as outsiders?
31:06Yeah.
31:07Change.
31:08Yeah.
31:08I mean, the, the reality of the Teach for Malaysia still exists today is because of the support of, you know,
31:14champions across the ministry of education and throughout government.
31:18Right.
31:18So I think that there are definitely the champions that exist in pockets that are out there that, that really, really value the support of civil society.
31:26Right.
31:26I think though, that, um, because, uh, of the large bureaucracy of, of, of, of let's say what the ministry is, um, there oftentimes it may be hard for, um, uh, officers in the ministry to figure out, okay,
31:42how do I best leverage the support of civil society organizations, um, in, in education?
31:49Because, uh, because it feels like, well, actually I'm already doing that job, right?
31:54So why do I need additional support?
31:56And so then how do, I think there's a mindset shift in how do we best deploy civil society organizations to close the last mile in the spaces that need the most, uh, uh, need the most support, right?
32:10Right.
32:10And I think that that's still like, uh, uh, in the ministry of education, still a challenge.
32:15I think there are other ministries in the government that do deploy civil society a lot more effectively.
32:21Um, so the women and children's ministry work a lot more closely, for example, with CSOs, um, but less so with the ministry of education.
32:28But we're very grateful for the support that Teach for Malaysia has received over time.
32:33And we hope that that continues for Teach for Malaysia, but more broadly for the ecosystem that people get support.
32:40And so I think that the ministry does try, right?
32:42So for example, for the upcoming, uh, Malaysian education blueprint that will, uh, be launched at the end of this year for, um, 2026 to 2035.
32:52Um, the ministry of education, you know, called in, um, CSOs called in, um, uh, um, external consultants to help, um, think about and formulate, uh, the blueprint, right?
33:06Um, and so there is a, there is a, there is a desire, um, to work alongside CSOs, but then getting to a place of like real partnership, I think is, um, uh, where we need to continue to grow in that space.
33:18So if you look at the, you would think that in some of the more developed countries, so for example, if, uh, in the Teach for All network, in the more developed countries, actually, they're, the majority of their funds for some of the, uh, for some of them actually come from the government.
33:35And you would assume that in a more developed country, you're able to raise more money from the private sector, but it's actually the government that is making the investment and is driving the change that the CSOs are making.
33:45Um, whereas in Malaysia, it's flipped, right? Uh, the, the majority of our funding, uh, comes from the private sector.
33:53Um, and aware, what the sign of sort of where government is truly valuing civil society is when government is deploying them through official contracts to do the work.
34:07Well, I've, I didn't, that's so much that you just said that I didn't know. That's, that's very interesting.
34:12What do you think is the most dangerous, you know, mindset young Malaysians have about success today and how, because you're so, you work so closely with so many, um, young Malaysians and of course with people who are actually engaging with them.
34:27When it comes to their thoughts on what success is today, what, what is your opinion on that and how can we change and shift that if necessary?
34:36Yeah. You know, I think there's an interesting paradox when we think about quote unquote Gen Z and, um, the, you know, the rising generation where more so than ever, I think that young people are more socially conscious and aware about the challenges in the world and are more equipped to address these challenges.
34:53Um, and I have not seen a, you know, when we think about our most privileged Gen Zs, they are brilliant, absolutely brilliant in ways that, you know, past generations have never been able to, to be because of just their ability to access, um, information, right.
35:11And whether internet, social media, ETC, whatever, but the reality is that they've also gone through this extremely traumatic period of the pandemic and most young people are very, very, and also have emerged from the pandemic in a very uncertain world where like, where politics is shifting significantly.
35:30Um, uh, national security is, is, is, is, is a huge risk across the world. So geopolitics is a huge issue. And so there's a huge insecurity that young people face today. Right. And so pre, pre COVID, um, if you looked at, uh, the, the top surveys of graduates in Malaysia, salary considerations were number seven in the top 10, something to that effect.
35:55Post COVID last year, last year, salary considerations are number two. Oh. And so young people are a lot more concerned about their financial security coming out of, uh, coming out of COVID because they have emerged out of the pandemic into an even more insecure world. Right. And so then they are even more incentivized to focus on how my, how am I securing my future as an individual? And I think a lot of the way that with technology society is, is, is, is progressing is becoming a lot more
36:25individualistic because social media. So social media algorithms, everything is designed to address your personal need. Right. So the biggest risk that we have as we move forward, I think is, do we become self-contained and more insular as a result of, um, our experiences with technology, our experiences with the pandemic, our experiences with the way that society is changing.
36:48Yeah. And then therefore do not make the choices about how do we build, um, a better collective, um, a better society, a better future. And oftentimes to make that choice, you have to think beyond yourself and think about what am I doing that is maybe not going to serve myself and improve my security, but it will help others. Right. Um, and kind of finding that balance, I think is critical. Um, and so how do we foster that more and more so in our young people, right?
37:15Like, yes, we want you to live happy, fulfilled lives. We want you to have, um, a life where you can take care of your mental health. We want you to live a life where you feel like you have the balance that you need in the world.
37:27But how do you do that in consideration about the future that we're building as a community that you live in?
37:34Yeah, absolutely. And so that, that is my biggest concern, right? We have the most equipped young people to make a difference. How do we enable and empower them to make the difference that they can make?
37:45And they will do so much more than we could have ever done.
37:48Right. That's a, that doesn't sound like something that's easy to achieve though, because the world, like you said, has been structured now, almost, um, designed to make a person so individualistic, right?
38:03That, that to feel that sense of community, people don't necessarily look at the community that they're in, in real life anymore.
38:08They see themselves as a part of a group that is virtual and then forgetting that they're a part of the, of the real community around them, which is just as important.
38:19I'm not negating the fact that virtual communities are not important, but the real life community around you matters as well.
38:27Yeah. And I think that that's where leadership matters. Right. And I think that it is a call on, uh, you know, organizations like Teach for Malaysia, but it's also on people who are in positions of leadership, right?
38:37Whether it's political leadership, whether it's private sector leadership, how are we fostering, um, uh, a collective society, right?
38:46A world that will work better for all of us in the future. Um, and so that's why, I mean, we are so grateful to have so much support from corporate partners, from individuals and the ministry that help us to do our work.
38:56And we really hope that in partnership with everyone, we can continue to grow that message, not just for education, right? Education is critical, but there's so many other sectors of, of, of, um, social impacts, uh, that are absolutely critical.
39:10You know, based on studies that have been done, it's, it's showing that there's a growing number of youth, Malaysian youth disengaging from school or traditional paths is the system failing them or are we not giving them enough alternatives to progress through what we would consider a traditional path of education and then work?
39:32Yeah. Um, I think it's both. Uh, and I think that, yes, the reality is that like we said, right, um, almost 60% of 15 year olds don't meet minimum proficiency levels in reading, right? Um, and, uh, even higher in math. Um, and the reality is that young people are going through a system and feeling like they cannot keep up and they're not engaged, uh, with what they're expected to do.
39:59And so it is then therefore easier for them to quote unquote, take charge of my life, get out of this and do something where I, where I can make money and I can do something to make a difference for myself and even for my family to support them, to put food on the table. Right. And so why sit in school?
40:15Because, uh, why sit in school where sometimes I'm just kind of, if I'm being really honest, just listening to a lecture or copying down notes from, uh, from the board and not being engaged in my learning or I'm feeling so far behind that I can't catch up when I could be earning money from my family. Right. And so in some ways the system is, is, um, uh, failing kids, right?
40:35I taught 16 year olds who had been in school their whole life and hadn't learned how to read and write at 16.
40:42How is that even possible?
40:43Exactly. And so that, that's a system failure, right? But also at the same time, we need to evolve and realize that there's so many more pathways for kids to engage in.
40:53And so how do we design and shift our system to be able to do that?
40:57Having heard everything that you've said, there's so much that's hopeful and there's so much that feels like we're, we're so, we're lagging so far behind.
41:06It feels like we would have progressed further than this at this point.
41:09When it comes to, you know, your greatest hope for the next generation of Malaysian students, what is your greatest hope for them?
41:20And what is also your biggest fear for that next generation?
41:24Yeah. Uh, I think they're, I think they're intertwined. And so I, I think that my biggest fear, right, is, I always say that the, the, the biggest fear or the biggest frustration that I have in, in life is unrealized potential.
41:39And my greatest hope for Malaysia is that I, is the fact that we have so much potential, whether it is even through our natural resource, whether it is our human potential,
41:50the power of our, our diversity as a society, we have so much potential and so much to offer to the world.
41:57And my hope is that young people feel that, you know, that they can live lives of agency and empowerment where they can unleash their potential for the country and for the world.
42:06Um, my greatest fear on the flip side is that they get caught up in a rat race or they get caught up in a system that tells them that this is just who you are.
42:15Um, and that, uh, that they don't have then the opportunity to, uh, to discover and unrealize their potential, whether for lack of education or whether through career paths that, that pigeonhole them into, uh, a vision of success that somebody else has determined instead of them discovering that for themselves.
42:32I'm trying to boil down a lot of that, of what you've said, because there's so much, um, it sounds like what it comes down to is options and opportunity.
42:44What it comes down to is the ability to, to know that I can, I can find out more as a student, find out more about what I'm capable of doing because I need options for that.
42:54And then I need the opportunities to be able to learn more and progress so that I can then be the best person that I can be.
43:02And for that to fall into place, we need an education system that will support it.
43:07And having said that, there's a lot, there's a lot to consider, right?
43:11And a lot to, that may need change.
43:14Now we've come to the rapid fire question part of, of today, where whatever comes to mind is what we will accept as an answer.
43:20But it's subject to change at any other point.
43:23This is just your answer for today.
43:25Sure.
43:25Right.
43:26All right.
43:26First question.
43:27Memorization or critical thinking?
43:29Critical thinking.
43:30Of course.
43:31A great teacher or a great syllabus?
43:33Okay.
43:36All right.
43:38Don't need questions anymore.
43:39What's the most underrated skill a student should leave school with?
43:43Loving learning.
43:45Loving learning.
43:46Worst education related advice you've ever heard?
43:49Fix the syllabus.
43:50Oh.
43:52More homework or more hands-on learning?
43:54Hands-on learning.
43:56What's one phrase you wish policymakers would stop saying about education?
44:01Ooh.
44:04What's one phrase I wish they would stop saying?
44:07Stop saying, yeah.
44:09About education.
44:11Saying that it's okay.
44:14Okay.
44:14Oh, it's good.
44:15Education is okay.
44:16Right, right.
44:16That it's, it's good.
44:17Okay.
44:18If you could shadow a teacher in any part of Malaysia tomorrow, where would you go and why?
44:24You know, I've been to schools all over the country, but one place that I'd love to go to, Skola Dalam Hospital.
44:34Schools that run in hospitals.
44:36There are schools that run in hospitals?
44:38Yeah.
44:38To serve the, to serve kids who are, let's say, going through terminal illness or long-term illness.
44:43I haven't been there before.
44:45Interesting.
44:45Wow.
44:46What's one thing every school leader should start doing today?
44:50Run, directly running professional development themselves for their teachers.
44:57That means, like, some sort of program.
45:00Yeah.
45:00So, actively facilitating.
45:02If we, what are changes we want to see in the way that we teach?
45:07Principals actually running the training themselves for their own teachers.
45:10Right.
45:10Now, final question we ask all of our guests.
45:12If you had the opportunity to make one change as Prime Minister of Malaysia for a day, what would it be and why?
45:21Sir.
45:24So, I would make it possible for a teacher with five years of experience to apply to become a principal.
45:33Right.
45:34So, if you imagine that, because currently, like I said, 25 years to become a principal, and then most people are already on their retirement phase, right?
45:44If you get people at the early stage of their career into leadership, you imagine a day where you have 40-year-old principals with 15 years of school leadership experience, and, you know, 20 years of their career ahead of them to make an impact.
46:00I think that would change the game.
46:02So, more opportunity for merit-based progress.
46:06To the positions of leadership.
46:08But I'm going to cheat and give you two.
46:09The other thing that I do as Prime Minister is to call on our young people to join the Teach for Malaysia program.
46:16Of course.
46:17To find out more about the Teach for Malaysia program, where would people go?
46:22Yeah, go to our website at teachformalaysia.org, and we're on all the social media platforms that matter.
46:28Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts on what you do and what Teach for Malaysia does, and we look forward to seeing some positive change that will come from the work that you do as an organization.
46:40As well, thank you to Chan Sunseng, CEO of Teach for Malaysia, for joining us today.
46:45Thanks, Terry.
46:45And we look forward to seeing you in the next episode of Life Confessions.
46:48Life Confessions.
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