00:00Tobias, let's bring you in here. What do you think? Is it unrealistic, as Ariel has said?
00:07Is a two-state solution dead in the water now after the events of October 7 and what we've seen since in Gaza?
00:15It's certainly in a very, very difficult place.
00:17And this is one of the reasons why the international community, including Britain, is actually considering the recognition of Palestine.
00:25Almost as a wake-up call to say, look where things are going.
00:28I was the former Middle East minister.
00:32I promoted the position that recognition of Palestine, which can only be used once, should be done as an act to help facilitate the objective of securing that two-state solution based on 1967 borders.
00:46Otherwise, it's just symbolism.
00:48But I would concur with the comments so far that what's playing out is changing the calculus.
00:54As Israel pursues its right, absolutely, to take on Hamas after those barbaric attacks, but is doing so with the absence of any strategy to convert its military successes on the battlefield towards stability in isolating Hamas politically.
01:11That could actually lead to a two-state solution, let alone a seed fire.
01:15So I would actually go further to say that the Arab states, including Saudi Arabia, wants to help rebuild, wants that two-state solution.
01:23But the prime minister himself, I'm afraid, is no longer interested.
01:28We see that in the legal settlements in the West Bank, blasting the Gaza Strip.
01:33Talk of you just saying that the vote in the Knesset as well to say, let's annex the West Bank.
01:40And we're now having to see Britain airdrop to go against the famine that's taking place.
01:47That shows that there is no effort at all to distinguish between the Palestinian people and Hamas.
01:54So this wider recognition is a wake-up call to say, let's not lose sight, because that window is absolutely closing.
02:02And I should stress, because this is a debate in Britain very much so, that somehow if you're calling for recognition, you're somehow endorsing Hamas.
02:09Nothing could be further from the truth.
02:11Hamas itself doesn't recognize Israel, doesn't want a two-state solution.
02:15The question, therefore, is, is what technocratic governance structure might be put in place to actually allow a sense of purpose, of peace, of stability in Gaza?
02:26And this has just not even been discussed at the moment.
02:28And we've lost sight of that completely, which is why some people, everybody is so demoralized in thinking where this is all going to go.
