- 6 months ago
- #considerthis
When haze hits, it disrupts daily life; causes school closures, health problems, and interrupted economic activity. But those stories often fade with the smoke. What do we lose by treating haze as a seasonal nuisance instead of the crisis it is? On this episode of #ConsiderThis Melisa Idris speaks with Azira Aziz, a lawyer affiliated with CERAH Malaysia, which is an NGO that focuses on environmental issues particularly air pollution.
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00:00Hi, welcome back to Consider This. I'm Melissa Idris. Let's continue our discussion about the
00:24reoccurring problem of haze and what is being done to address the root causes of it. Joining me now
00:31on the show is Azira Aziz, who is a lawyer affiliated with Cerah Malaysia, which is an NGO
00:37that focuses on environmental issues, particularly air pollution. Azira, thank you so much for joining
00:43me on the show today. Now, when we talk about haze, when the public talks about haze, more often than
00:48not, it's always in terms of pollution or a seasonal nuisance. Can I ask you why we should
00:57or can we or should we be framing haze as a human rights issue, as an infringement on our fundamental
01:06freedoms? I think the long, the short question to that long one is, do we as Malaysians have a right
01:14to clean, haze-free air? Well, yes, because on the 26th July 2022, the United Nations General Assembly
01:24declared access to a clean, healthy and sustainable environment as a universal human rights of which
01:29Malaysia, along with 161 other nations, voted in favour. So, this includes the impact of climate change,
01:38there are sustainable management and use of natural resources, air pollution, land and water, and
01:43unsolved management of chemicals and waste, and the resulting loss in biodiversity is the fair
01:48with enjoyment of this right. In our federal constitution, we have article 5.1, which states that no person
01:54shall be deprived of his life or personal liberty, save in accordance of the law, and implies that clean air
02:02and environment is part of it. So, this is why we have environmental protective law, protection laws,
02:09such as Environmental Quality Act, and particularly Regulations Environmental Quality Clean Air Regulations
02:17which mainly governs industries and manufacturing factories. We also have other acts like Protection of
02:23Wildlife Act and National Forestry Act. Okay, so, so that this is interesting, but can I ask you when we
02:31think about how to address haze, is legislation the way to address this issue? I'm just wondering
02:40where you see the current gaps are when it comes to some of the pollution laws that we have in effect
02:46in our country? Yes, I believe that we need to amend the article 5.1 of our federal constitution to
02:54include the right to a healthy, clean and sustainable environment, and this must be expressly worded to
02:59include air, earth, and others. So, the word life itself, right, right now, as is, under the case of
03:06time taxing versus surahandaya, perkhidmatan, pendidikan, and the other, Gopal Triram, JTA, as he was done,
03:14held that the expression of life in the constitution does not refer to mere existence, but incorporates
03:20matters that form the quality of life, including the right to live in a reasonably healthy and pollution-free environment.
03:28So, even as is, article 5.1, there is a legal precedent that states that it should include quality of
03:35life, quality of life, of course, the right to breathe clean air. So, we recently had work with
03:44Suhaqam to publish in 2024 this report called Silent Enemy, report on haze pollution and the right to clean air,
03:51of which Cherah Malaysia was part of. There are many gaps that we identified there, actually, but I'm just going to highlight a few.
03:59Malaysia lacks an explicit legal exclamation of every person's right to clean air, or a safe, clean, healthy, and sustainable environment.
04:07We do not explicitly make public and ecosystem health as their main objective. We do not have a legally binding and affordable ambient air quality standard.
04:18The new Malaysia ambient air quality standard is only a policy guideline. There is no institutional responsibility for ambient air quality, nor a legal requirement on any government institution to develop plans to improve air quality.
04:32We also like a bit of citizens and power, but that's why it's where Cherah comes in and people who I'm grateful to have their support.
04:39Recently, as well, the Madani government recently passed the bill on Freedom of Information Act. I'm hoping that will improve public knowledge about air quality so that it can be facilitated by a legal requirement of public access to air quality information, public participation in air quality government,
04:59and just justice-able to clean air.
05:04Right. So, there are...
05:06So, can we talk a little bit about the work that Cherah is doing? Because I think there has been... Cherah has done so much to really bring this conversation to the forefront.
05:16As you said, you know, you've partnered with Suhaqam, you've come up with this fantastic report, and there's been a lot of calls to have more legislation to address this.
05:26This is a standalone Clean Air Act for Malaysia to address some of the shortcomings that you've just mentioned.
05:34Can I get you to explain what that is? From your perspective, what would that look like? A robust rights-based air quality law for Malaysia?
05:45What needs to be included in it?
05:47There's a lot that should be included in it.
05:50I can imagine.
05:52Again, I'll highlight a few things.
05:55An explicit overarching purpose of protecting public health, I still believe the health, thereby protecting every person's right to save and clean air.
06:03A mandatory ambient air quality standard that is aligned with WHO's air quality guidelines.
06:10The legislation should also set out interim targets to guide reduction efforts towards the timely achievement of safe levels of exposure to air pollution.
06:20Establishing a national clean air administration structure, perhaps charged by the Prime Minister.
06:26Legal mechanism.
06:27Legal mechanism.
06:28Because for us lawyers, they challenge when they tell us why don't you sue whoever company that causes the case from overseas based on their embattment.
06:39We can't.
06:40Because of jurisdiction issue, there's a lack of coordination for us to base our case on.
06:48Because it's very technical.
06:49Environmental cases are very technical.
06:52You have to...
06:54Not within a proof.
06:55For the prosecutors, they have to proof or within a proof.
06:59For us lawyers, if we are doing a class action, right, we have to bring in scientists, technical reports, even civil service.
07:08To provide that kind of detailed evidence that specifies where the harm came from and how it harmed the litigants and why they deserve restitution or compensation.
07:27But most importantly, we want long term remedies.
07:31So what should be in this act is also legal mechanism that facilitates public access to air quality information, public participation in air quality governance and justice-civil rights to police air.
07:42A statute that specifically addresses transboundary air pollution that empowers and requires the government to hold citizens and businesses domicile in Malaysia that contribute to transboundary air pollution to account through the Malaysian criminal and civil justice system.
07:57Because we can't. If they do it at Johan Setia, like what happened the last time, it's fine. You can take action against them, right? They can be held accountable.
08:04They do it in Sumatra. You have to request information from the Indonesian government and they don't feel like sharing the information with us.
08:11So there's not much we can do.
08:14Yeah, I think, you know, there is a misconception or a frustration maybe amongst the Malaysian public that not enough is being done to hold these plantation companies to account, right?
08:28So because they are the root cause of some of the root cause of the problem. Can I ask you then, Azira, what that needs to happen to make sure to make it maybe to make it easier for lawyers to deal with it?
08:42So we talked about the legal mechanism to allow this. Can I ask you about the haze governance issue? So if this is a transboundary issue and it's multiple jurisdictions, can there be an effective transboundary haze governance mechanism that will help lawyers like yourself hold some of these companies to account?
09:04We are already a party to the Austrian agreement on transboundary haze solutions. So there are the challenges for Malaysia in particular and also in Singapore.
09:14So Singapore has an anti-transboundary haze act of their own. But the issue for them is that when it comes to enforcement, which is an experience that Malaysia is also trying to learn from, is that they find it hard to litigate against their own company.
09:28They also own assets or, you know, have investments in Sumatra. So in that regard, we have to somehow persuade the Indonesian government to share publicly the information within their jurisdiction. It's very hard up. I understand that.
09:48And I think people were a bit hard on the previous minister. But he did attempt, and from what we were told in that town hall, that it was not possible at the time due to jurisdiction and sovereignty concerns raised within ASEAN.
10:07So there are challenges towards sharing of information. Like I said, as lawyers, it has to be evidence-based. It has to be something I can prove. It has to be something I can tell the court, yeah, we can actually mitigate against this person.
10:27We have evidence that shows coercive truth that no one can deny. And hopefully, we can get some long-term remedy. But right now, it's more towards pushing towards legislative reform as well as policy reform.
10:45Right. Because it's a little hard, right? Right. Right now, so I guess advocacy is far more important at this point to persuade our international friends in the region.
10:54Well, we have a new minister. So Nick Nazmi did his best during when he held that portfolio. But we have a new minister now who also holds the plantation portfolio as well.
11:04And then now with this natural resources and environmental sustainability portfolio. What would you like to see become his priorities in terms of addressing the ASE issue?
11:16How would you like to see him convince our international friends, our neighbours, to deal with the transboundary issue of ASEAN?
11:25I would like him to be more... It's actually very hard. But I know it has to be done. Because right now that Singapore and Malaysia complains about everything every year, right?
11:39It comes from the same country. We are deeply unhappy about it because of the economic as well as health impacts to our citizens.
11:48And of course, the policy makers and politicians, it impacts the voting patterns of the citizens as well.
11:55So I would ask the current city minister to perhaps cooperate and maybe we propose like a joint ASEAN fund or something to not just focus on the punitive part, but we also have to somehow win hard.
12:13In a way that, you know, we are in this together. I don't think they want slush and burn practices to continue to the point that their own citizens recorded an API recording of 1,400 at one point.
12:28We complain about 180, 150. They went through 1,400 at some of the center of the hotspots in Sumatra. I can't remember which year.
12:38So it is actually to the benefit of all if we coordinate and collaborate together at ASEAN to address the issue of accountability of all the companies operating in the origin of all the hotspots.
12:55And I'm not just talking about Sumatra actually. I'm also talking about Malaysian plantation companies who also slush and burn in Peninsular Malaysia.
13:04That has happened and they are complains and that they are being held accountable. So I would hope that this is my hope for Indonesian minister as well.
13:14We would like to breathe clean air. It impacts not just, I mean, we complain as neighbours, but I'm sure it adversely impacts heavily your own economy and your own citizens as well.
13:28So why not just be more open towards sharing of data and have maybe a group of scientists that are under ASEAN banner working on this issue together and actually commit to the solutions proposed by these scientists and professionals.
13:47But then we know better than that. Lawyers, we need all the scientists to translate certain things and make it like a five point bullet form of explanation to us as well.
13:58So I really appreciate this kind of collaboration because this is not like us versus them kind of situation. This is a situation where everyone is suffering from the same issue.
14:12It would be best if we sit down and work something out in a way that it's a win-win situation for all.
14:23I feel that maybe Indonesia feels a bit threatened, but they shouldn't be because we're neighbours, even though we gado also.
14:31If anyone messes with ASEAN, you know we will beat all the people outside of ASEAN together.
14:37I 100% agree, Azira. Thank you so much for being so candid and for sharing some of those insights in your work with CHERA.
14:45I appreciate your time. Thank you.
14:47Azira Aziz there, a lawyer affiliated with CHERA Malaysia, wrapping up this episode of Consider This.
14:53I'm Melissa Idris signing off for the evening. Thank you so much for watching. Good night.
14:58We'll see you next time.
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