00:00Welcome to the Europe Conversation. My guest this week is the EU Commissioner for Climate,
00:12Clean Growth and Net Zero, Wupke Hustra. He says that while global warming is a man-made problem,
00:19the response has to be balanced with the interests of industry.
00:24Well, Wupke Hustra, EU Commissioner for Climate and Clean Growth. Thank you very much for joining
00:29us on the Europe Conversation. Thank you for having me. We're here because a few days ago the EU
00:34announced its targets for 2040 by cutting greenhouse emissions by 90%. Can you tell us,
00:40do you think that the EU can actually do that, given that so many member states, in particular
00:44France, are looking for flexibilities? I think we can, and I think we should, if we manage to make
00:51sure this is a huge opportunity also for our businesses. By the way, that is precisely where
00:56France and others are asking for, and rightly so. This is not just about climate, it is as much about
01:03exposing us to future economic success and making sure we create more independence and never again
01:11become dependent on rogue states like Russia for something as important as our energy.
01:17And then one of the issues, one of the flexibilities, which is sort of people are talking about the most,
01:20is this idea of a carbon credit, where other countries, the EU pays other countries to cut
01:25their carbon emissions. There are real concerns about this around accountability, whether it will
01:32work, whether it's cost effective, whether we're not redirecting money in the EU, which could be
01:36invested in the EU's own carbon emission reduction schemes. Yeah, but let's be clear-eyed about what we're
01:44doing. The vast amount of effort and also money will be spent on clean tech, will be spent on batteries,
01:51on solar, on wind, on geothermal, all sorts of technologies that will help push for more economic growth
01:58and more jobs in Europe. That's one. Secondly, and next to that, if it is more cost-effective for our own companies
02:06to make sure that they go for part of the solution and part of the emission reductions outside of
02:13Europe, this is exactly what is opening the door for getting that. So it's not going to be mandatory
02:18and companies will only go there if it is cost-effective. Even the EU, the European Scientific Advisory Board on
02:24Climate Change has advised against this and also saying that those countries, often developing countries,
02:30won't meet their climate targets under a Paris accord because of this. Well, I think actually it's something
02:35different than also the advisory board. The scientists are telling us something different.
02:40They, in itself, like the idea of carbon credits and doing exactly this. They're just saying it
02:47should not be part of the 90 percent, it should be on top of it. So that, I think, is an extremely
02:52important distinction. Secondly, in this hugely complicated geopolitical world, there is a lot of
02:57value also for us in building more bridges with our friends in Africa and Latin America and other places.
03:03And this is something they're advocating for. This is something they like. They have, they often lack the
03:10capital, they often lack the opportunity. Wouldn't it be great if our companies actually build these
03:16bridges, make money and manage this problem and help to basically drive down emissions at the same time?
03:25But is it not the case that those countries, their economic growth may be slowed because they have to
03:29take into account their own carbon emissions as well as the ones they're receiving money for from the
03:33European Union? Whereas the EU can then just pursue economic growth without impeded?
03:38So the presumption that underlies your question suggests actually that, you know, there is some sort of a
03:46discrepancy between, on the one hand, economic growth and, on the other hand, climate action.
03:51And our job is to make sure that we continue with climate action, but do so in a way that works for our
03:59people, works for our companies and works for our economy. Personally, I think that is very much doable,
04:04but we need to make sure that on top of this setting this target, we have the conversation about how European
04:11companies are going to be the winners of the future in cleantech, how we are much stricter about a level playing
04:18field that is fair to our companies, rather than that they face unfair competition, particularly from
04:23China. How do we make sure we make life much simpler for our businesses? Because, frankly speaking, we have
04:28made it too complicated.
04:30I suppose just one of the issues around this is that there's an anxiety that this is just another element of
04:35chipping away at the Green Deal. I mean, we look at the Commission, for example, well, potentially getting rid of,
04:40I don't know if it is or not, the corporate greenwashing legislation. I mean, what is the position on that?
04:46Let's look into this specific proposal, what it is. On the one hand, it is clearly ambitious,
04:53because of the true north it sets in terms of action. That helps, by the way, also for our companies,
05:00because it gives predictability on where the European Union wants to go. And indeed, it offers
05:06flexibility, and I would say pragmatism in part of the design. Another part of it as well is the
05:12legislation around deforestation, the nature restoration law, something that the EPP, your own
05:16political group, again, was heralding as one of the most important pieces of the Green Deal,
05:22and then wanted to reject an end. Can you understand why people are anxious about this direction?
05:28Again, what we need to make sure is that we become less one-dimensional in the whole conversation about
05:35climate and about all the topics related to this. We need to go all-in in the domain of
05:41decarbonisation. And we need to do so for reasons of climate change, for reasons of industrial survival
05:49and success, and for reasons of independence. And if we are able to find that nexus of climate action,
05:57clean technology and industrial growth, I am very sure that we have a recipe that will work for everyone
06:04in the European Union. But just specifically, can you understand why people are anxious?
06:08That one minute we have this Green Deal, when we have a biodiversity collapse at the moment,
06:13and then the EPP saying, actually, let's scrap that. And then similarly with deforestation,
06:18and similarly with this. Let's take stock of the fact that this is the largest transition
06:23in energy that we have seen in more than 100 years. Our true north is clear. It is absolutely clear
06:31where we want to go. It is also smart to be flexible on the how, to be pragmatic and look at what works.
06:37If it doesn't work, you will need to course correct. And I think it is much smarter, and our citizens
06:44understand, to then do that and just, you know, continue with something that apparently didn't work.
06:49So with nature restoration, what would be the alternative? Because when you're looking at
06:53literally a biodiversity collapse? What we need to build, in my view, is a system where taking care
07:00of our forests also works economically, where there is a business case also for all the foresters that
07:06are doing a great job. That has all sorts of consequences for the longevity of certain trees.
07:12That has all sorts of consequences for the biodiversity in our forests. That's not easy, certainly not with
07:18the state in which our forests are today. But I think we can do better. You've said in the past a
07:24few times that you don't see global warming as a political issue. It shouldn't be, at least. But
07:27obviously it is, because you look at the European Parliament that has moved very much to the right,
07:32even the EPP, when it comes to the climate issue. And some member states, the likes of the Prime Minister
07:37of Italy, saying, you know, it's ideological, the issue of global warming. So first, just to be crystal clear,
07:44the problem of climate change is there. It is man-made and it will become worse before it gets
07:51better, particularly in Europe. The world is warming up roughly with 1.5 degrees by now. Europe is a
07:57twice that number. We're talking about three degrees. The impact on our societies, on our people,
08:02on our businesses, on our communities, in terms of floods, in terms of wildfires, is very, very significant.
08:10On top of that, the economic impact is easily between 50 and 100 billion, and that number will
08:16only go up. So there is a clear imperative, and in my view also a responsibility for politicians,
08:23to make sure our people are not in harm's way and we do something about it.
08:28What about the fact that the United States is also off the pitch when it comes to the fight
08:32against global warming? One of the first things, obviously, Donald Trump did was to
08:35withdraw from the Paris Climate Accord, and we see the policies enacted.
08:40Well, that is clearly deeply unfortunate and a major blow to international efforts.
08:46Earlier on in the interview, I was saying that climate change doesn't discriminate. It doesn't
08:51matter for the heating up of the planet where CO2 is being pumped into the air. And if then,
08:58the second largest emitter, the most formidable power across the globe in geopolitical terms,
09:04and the largest economy basically says, well, thanks, but no thanks, we no longer play ball,
09:08but play ball. That is, that is, of course, something that has very significant consequences.
09:13At the same time, my read is that you will see in the US that whenever an investment in,
09:19for example, cleantech pays off, and as a side effect is also something that is good for climate,
09:26businesses are not going to stop it. Yeah, do you think that could be an upshot for
09:30the European Union? Because we saw the likes of Draghi and others have said that innovation
09:34can't thrive in the European Union, but it can do in the United States.
09:38But maybe do you think that the EU could make an effort to try to bring a lot of that back,
09:43a specific effort, not just a sort of an accidental one where they decide themselves?
09:48Our quest for innovation, our objective is much more fundamental, and we need to reshape the
09:54landscape in such a way that innovation can flourish across Europe. And that will take huge
10:00steps in terms of the Capital Markets Union. That will take way more investments from businesses and
10:06governments alike in tech and in AI. And that also will take simplification. And by the way,
10:12as I said before, making sure there is a level playing field where our companies face competition,
10:19but fair competition and not heavily state subsidized competition from China.
10:23Is the EU about to meet that moment? Absolutely. Absolutely. And but the one thing I will say
10:29is we will need considerable speed going forward. And that is exactly what this commission seeks to
10:34deliver. And final question. The EU is obviously pursuing trade across the world outside the United
10:41States because of the ongoing trade war. But in the past, the EU has said that any new trade agreements
10:46will have to have very strong stipulations about protecting the environment and so on.
10:50Do you think that those might fall by the wayside in pursuit of trade deals to ensure that we have
10:55proper economic growth? No, I don't. And Mercosur is one of the great examples of that.
11:00That's exactly the type of deal that we seek. It opens up a huge market for our companies.
11:06By the way, it is also hugely attractive for our friends in Latin America.
11:10And it has clear prerequisites also in the domain of climate and of the environment.
11:16But the farmers who are in government in the Netherlands, who are obviously in a
11:20and the government has collapsed, but they're still in a in a government there.
11:24They are not happy with Mercosur. I have a different read.
11:27And if you if you would ask also the agri commissioner, Hansen, he will be the first
11:33to articulate to you that particularly also for our own sector, there is a huge opportunity
11:39that on top of that, he has been and the commission has been taken mitigating measures
11:44to make sure it is fair for everyone. And that is also the reason why, at least in my read,
11:49this is so broadly supported across member states. OK, Commissioner, thank you very much
11:53for joining us. Thank you. Your conversation. Thank you.
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