- 6 months ago
- #considerthis
Malaysia is running out of space to bury its waste. With landfills overflowing and recycling rates still low, the Government is turning to Waste-to-Energy—or WTE—technology as a possible fix. At its core, WTE is a modern form of incineration: it burns waste at high temperatures but recovers the energy to generate electricity or heat. Not all waste incineration does that. But can burning trash ever be clean—or green? On this episode of #ConsiderThis Melisa Idris speaks with Professor Datuk Dr Agamuthu Pariatamby, Senior Professor with the Jeffrey Sachs Center on Sustainable Development at Sunway University.
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00:00Music
00:00Hello and good evening, I'm Melissa Idris. Welcome to Consider This.
00:14This is the show where we want you to consider and then reconsider what you know of the news of the day.
00:19Malaysia is running out of space to bury its waste.
00:23With landfills overflowing and recycling rates still low,
00:27the government is turning to waste to energy or WTE technology as a possible fix.
00:33Now at its core, WTE is a modern form of incineration.
00:37It burns waste at high temperatures but recovers the energy to generate electricity or heat.
00:44Now not all waste incineration does that, so that's to bear that in mind.
00:48But the question we want to ask today is, can burning trash ever be clean or green?
00:54Let's ask the waste management expert on the show today,
00:58Professor Datuk Dr. Agamutu Periatambi,
01:01who is a senior professor with the Jeffrey Sachs Centre on Sustainable Development at Sunway University.
01:06He has more than five decades of experience in waste management.
01:11Prof Aga, thank you so much for being on the show with me today.
01:14What are your thoughts on waste incineration and other burn technologies?
01:17Maybe you can lay that out for us as we start our conversation.
01:21Okay, I'm glad you asked me this because it's definitely a hot topic
01:25because the government's policy for more than two, three years ago,
01:32it was like no waste of energy.
01:33Now there's a real change in the policy direction.
01:37And as far as I'm concerned, we need it.
01:40We need the waste of energy because like you mentioned earlier,
01:43we are running short of space and we also are the existing 90% of the waste landfills are dump sites.
01:53They're not really sanitary landfills.
01:55So they actually cause a lot of damage to the environment in terms of landfills leachate
02:00and in the landfill gas and so on.
02:02That's another reason that I would prefer because a waste of energy is a controlled environment.
02:07You know, everything is controlled.
02:10When the waste comes in, it is absorbed with a negative pressure.
02:13No pollution goes out, no air, odor goes out.
02:17And then the waste is kept in a pit and then it's burnt in the temperature of 850 to over 1,000 degrees centigrade.
02:24And that ensures that combustion is complete.
02:27And that is the reason I think that we really should move in this direction
02:33and we should move fast compared to our neighbours.
02:36Of course, yeah, our neighbours have already gone beyond.
02:40Like Singapore is burning almost all their waste and they're producing electricity.
02:44Okay.
02:45Prof Aga, you talked about how WTE technology essentially will contain
02:52some of the output of burning of waste incineration.
02:58Dioxins, fly ash, air pollution, all of those cited as risks often in these types of conversations
03:05in the debate about waste incineration.
03:08Talk to me about those risks.
03:10Can those risks be mitigated?
03:13Can they be managed, contained, regulated?
03:15What do you think?
03:17I would say yes, very strongly, yes.
03:20The people who are opposing are the people who may not know exactly the advancements
03:26in the flue gas treating system.
03:29I mean, the main outputs from Waste to Energy plant is the water mesh, fly ash and flue gas.
03:35Now, I think most countries are now using the water mesh and fly ash for various purposes.
03:39Like, for example, the mesh is used for making the road.
03:42The fly ash sometimes can be used for as a mixture together with concrete and so on.
03:47But the question is flue gas.
03:49The gas that's coming out is the question.
03:52They say that it contains all kinds of pollutants, which I will not agree 100% because we have
03:59got all the latest gas cleaning systems in place in the last 10 years.
04:04We did not have a catalytic converter, for example.
04:07Then we have fiber filter.
04:09We have a pH neutralization system.
04:12So we are ready to actually mitigate the flue gas.
04:16And as I always say that the flue gas is cleaner than the gas, the air in Kuala Lumpur.
04:23Prof Aga, you say we're ready.
04:25Are we ready in terms of technology or are you talking about ready in terms of the regulatory
04:29framework and the institutional capacity that's needed to monitor WTE operations,
04:36to ensure that it's safe, that it's transparent and effective?
04:39I would say both because technology is very advanced and we are importing technology.
04:44So most of the waste energy plant that we are establishing is a collaborative effort between
04:50the technology provider and the finance provider in Malaysia.
04:53So technology is not a question.
04:55But the government puts a condition like, for example, you must have used the technology
05:01for like 10 years, so we are not taking from some new players, but in terms of institutional
05:08capacity and so on, we are in a way ready because in the first place, every waste to energy plant
05:15needs a EIA study, which is a detailed study of the risks and challenges of the waste to energy
05:22plant in a particular location.
05:24And one EIA may not be used for another place.
05:26So that is one thing.
05:28And we actually, the only thing that I would like to emphasize here is that the government
05:34should ensure proper enforcement.
05:38Right.
05:38Because, yeah.
05:40Proper enforcement meaning?
05:41What do you mean by enforcement?
05:42In terms of monitoring the flue gas because you see, all the new waste to energy plants must
05:47display the quality of the flue gas for the public.
05:51It is going to be compulsory.
05:52So it will be displayed when you are driving in a car next to a waste to energy plant, you
05:57will be able to see the quality of the flue gas.
05:59So you can see whether it meets a standard and the standard will be also displayed together.
06:05And the enforcement is actually safe and it is running according to the EIA report as well
06:11as the technology conditions.
06:13Talk to me a little bit about the criticism towards waste to energy operation or technology.
06:24So critics say that WTE actually discourages recycling, it discourages composting, it discourages
06:31financing into other sustainable, other methods of waste management.
06:37How would you respond to these concerns, especially when waste incineration really requires the
06:45sorting of waste, the separation of toxic waste and plastics and the like?
06:51Yeah, but you see, I would not agree totally because in most of the countries, including our
06:59neighbour Singapore, their recycling rate is about 60%.
07:03That is almost double the recycling rate of Malaysia.
07:06But the remaining waste all goes to the incineration plant or waste to energy plants.
07:11So you can't say that this is going to cut down on the recycling.
07:15If we have a proper policy in place, we can have the recycling and what is not recyclable
07:22and what is reusable and so on will actually end up in the waste to energy plant.
07:27And we also have a large chunk of mixed waste.
07:29You know, we have like soft drink cartons, which has got one layer of paper and one layer
07:34of plastic.
07:34Now, those things all definitely has to go to waste to energy plant.
07:39So the mixed waste all will end up in waste to energy.
07:42It's very difficult to recycle such things.
07:45Not all waste incineration plants are waste to energy.
07:51So the current discourse around waste incineration, is that based on plants and technology that
08:00was maybe several decades old?
08:03And are the current plants that are in operation in Malaysia, are we moving towards better, more
08:09high-tech operations?
08:11Yes.
08:12I mean, if you are referring to the five small incineration plants on the island, the
08:18four island and Cameron islands, they are not waste to energy plant, they are incineration
08:23plants.
08:24And their capacity is very small, 30 tons, 40 tons a day.
08:26Incineration means it's huge.
08:28It's huge, like 1,000 tons a day, 2,000 tons.
08:32China is building one 7,000 tons a day.
08:34So that kind of capacity will produce a lot of energy.
08:38But the ones on the Malaysian islands, Langkawi and Theoman and so on, and also the one in
08:43Kemba Island, they are not meant for waste to energy.
08:46So they are only incineration.
08:48And you don't expect energy, energy from, because the capacity is very, very small.
08:52And I don't know, maybe it's not something that is really desired at that time.
08:58Maybe they thought it's a good idea, but not a good idea now.
09:02Yeah.
09:02The big question when it comes to waste to energy plants is where to build them.
09:10Almost everyone says, well, not in my backyard, but sees the need for it.
09:16How do you respond to that?
09:18How do people, I mean, I'm sure WTE plants require the buy-in of the community it's going
09:24to be situated at.
09:27But what do you make of the concerns that there could be placed closer to marginalized communities
09:33or communities that maybe don't have so much of a voice to push back against these plants?
09:41What are your thoughts on where these plants ought to be built?
09:45Okay.
09:45Number one, the EIA study actually stipulates the place.
09:50I mean, you cannot have a waste to energy plant anywhere and not near any living accommodations
09:58or houses and so on.
09:59That's one thing.
10:00Second thing is, it must be in a place where it doesn't have any adverse effects on the
10:06community nearby.
10:07And that is why, but of course, I'm personally aware of one or two plants where there is objections
10:15for various reasons.
10:17But Malaysia is lucky because the bulk of the waste to energy plant, we don't have objections
10:22because they are sitting next to the current landfill.
10:26Like if you take the Jaram landfill, there are two waste to energy plants coming up there.
10:30There is no objection because it's away from the Kappar town.
10:33I don't see why there should be any objections because it is exactly where the landfill is.
10:39And I keep telling that you don't see the damage caused by landfill because it's all
10:43underneath, but you just see the flue gas and you blame waste to energy plant.
10:49Okay.
10:49You mentioned a couple of times that Singapore, our neighbor, uses WTE technology.
10:57I'm sure other countries, I think Japan and Sweden also incinerate their waste with high
11:02environmental standards.
11:04What makes them work under those conditions?
11:09What makes those societies accept WTE technology?
11:14Are there lessons to be learned from other countries?
11:16Okay.
11:17I can tell you, when I talked to my Japanese friends, they said when they started 40 years
11:22ago, they were in a similar boat like Malaysia.
11:26But they educate the people.
11:28They educate the people not only just to accept the waste to energy plant, but also how to
11:32do the separation of the waste.
11:34But now it has become a culture in Japan for the people to separate the waste, clean the
11:39waste, avoid contamination.
11:41Like for example, when a housewife throws a plastic in Japan, she will wash it and drip,
11:46dry it and throw it the next day.
11:47So the plastic goes for thermal treatment like pyrolysis to produce diesel and you get high
11:53quality diesel.
11:54But in Malaysian plastic, you do that and see what happens.
11:57You won't even get 50%.
11:58That is the thing.
12:00It is actually, it comes with the training of the people, educating the people from
12:05and we will definitely succeed like the Japanese, but we don't have to wait 40 years, maybe
12:10four years.
12:11Okay.
12:12Well, that's encouraging.
12:13Prabhakar, thank you so much for speaking to me on the show.
12:15That was Professor Datuk Dr. Agamutu Peritambi from the Jeffrey Sachs Centre on Sustainable
12:22Development at Sunway University.
12:24We're going to take a quick break here on Consider This.
12:26We'll be back with more.
12:27Stay tuned.
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