- 8 months ago
Amy Ray of the Indigo Girls shares her perspective on what The South means to her. From great food to a complex cultural heritage, she embraces it all.
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00:00Well, Amy Rae and Emily Saylors, welcome to Biscuits & Jam.
00:04Thank you. Thanks for having us.
00:06It is such an honor to have y'all on this show. I can't believe you're here,
00:12but I'm really excited to talk to y'all and I've been listening to your music for a very long time
00:18and it was kind of a big part of the soundtrack of my youth. So I'm excited to talk to y'all.
00:28Thanks for having us.
00:29So, all right, let's start by getting your voices straight. Amy, I'll start with you.
00:34What is your favorite place to get breakfast in Dahlonega and what do you order?
00:42Oh, God. Well, it's really actually Waffle House because there's not a...
00:51You know, Dahlonega changes a lot from time to time on who's serving breakfast.
00:55I used to have a diner on Highway 9. It was my favorite place and it shut down.
01:00My favorite breakfast is eggs over easy on toast with hash browns and cheese,
01:07usually on the hash browns. If I happen to go into an expensive nice place,
01:12there's creamy grits, you know, and the same kind of eggs.
01:18Should I say Bojangles, too?
01:22I'm a bottom feeder.
01:25All right, Emily, this may be a little bit too easy for somebody who's in the biscuit business,
01:29but what about you?
01:30Well, I'm actually no longer in the biscuit business, but I helped a biscuit business.
01:37If I'm going to go out at home for breakfast, which is kind of rare, actually, I would go to
01:42the Majestic Diner and I'd order scrambled eggs with cheese, hash browns, fruit, black coffee,
01:51and either probably a side of ham or bacon.
01:55That sounds pretty good.
01:57Well, I know you've spent a lot of time in the restaurant business,
02:02and I want to talk about that a little bit later.
02:05So you guys have so much coming out right now. It's kind of incredible.
02:11So I just wanted to say congrats on all the new projects that are happening.
02:15I mean, holy cow, you've got a new documentary that's called It's Only Life After All.
02:21You've got a new film called Glitter and Doom.
02:24You've got new music.
02:26You're going to have some very excited fans out there.
02:29I mean, it's been an incredible year.
02:32I don't even know where you're going to start with all of it, but
02:35with Barbie and Glitter and Doom and the documentary and just us touring and
02:41doing some fun TV spots that we haven't done in a long time, seeing some new faces in the crowd.
02:48It's been a great year for that.
02:50Yeah.
02:51Why this sort of creative explosion all of a sudden?
02:54And did everything just sort of line up this way,
02:57or had you all kind of tried to plan it this way?
03:00I don't think you can plan these things.
03:02You know, the documentary, our director and editor Alexandria Bombach
03:07had been working on it for a few years, honestly, editing,
03:10and edited during the pandemic and in her little basement out in Santa Fe.
03:16And, you know, it just was a weird, bizarre thing because it took a while for that to
03:21get legs as far as distribution because we expected it to come out sooner.
03:24But then the timing was interesting because then the Barbie thing happened and we had no idea.
03:30You know, that was going to be like just a song in the trailer,
03:33and then it became part of the movie.
03:34And, you know, and then the movie came out and then the doc started screening.
03:38And then at the same time, we had been working on the music.
03:41Just, you know, I had written a song for this movie called Glitter and Doom,
03:46and Emily and I were working on recording it.
03:47And then that kind of that came out to actually that came out the same time as the doc,
03:51which is and was screening at the same time, which was totally not planned.
03:55In fact, we were trying to make sure they didn't so they wouldn't, you know, compete or anything.
04:01And I had a record come out last year.
04:03Well, yeah, just like a year ago.
04:06Exactly.
04:06And so, yeah, and then we had a record come out during the pandemic.
04:10It's a lot at once.
04:11And I think Barbie sort of made everything accelerate a little bit,
04:14because that was so big and mainstream and kind of out of the blue, you know,
04:20like, like a lot of people who had not heard about us for 20 years, you know,
04:25who aren't the core, you know, people that come out and see us all the time.
04:30All of a sudden, they were aware that we were still like alive and kicking.
04:34So and I think it gave people that, you know, like when we do like a New York Times interview
04:40for the for Barbie, it was like someone was always like really cool people that were like,
04:46well, we were trying to figure out a way we would write about you,
04:48but we could never get an angle, you know, and this is the one.
04:52So I think things just collided in a good way.
04:55It's it's really fortunate to have something in your career happen late.
04:59It gives you a little bit of a sense of, you know,
05:01to have something in your career happen late.
05:03It gives you a little infusion of energy in the in the population.
05:07You know, for us, we just keep doing our thing,
05:09and we've been doing it for a long time and kind of just keep plugging away.
05:12Well, that's that's so fun to have that movie come out.
05:15And, you know, here's there's a whole new generation of people that,
05:20you know, probably didn't know your music and they're hearing it for the first time
05:23and going, wow, what is this? This is great.
05:26So that's that's pretty fun.
05:28I love that the, you know, America Ferreira's
05:33character in Barbie is singing the song and her daughters with her.
05:37I mean, we've always been we've always had such great support from
05:41women and to have their daughters come.
05:43I saw a little girl singing all the words the other night in a concert,
05:46and it was just gave me the biggest thrill.
05:48So it feels really good if that is going to continue on that,
05:53you know, the daughters are hearing from their mothers.
05:56It's a nice thread.
05:57Oh, it's so great. It's so great.
06:00Well, I want to talk about all this stuff a little bit more in a minute.
06:04But but first, I just want to talk about where y'all grew up, where you're from.
06:10You both kind of grew up in and around Decatur, Georgia, which is which is just outside of
06:16Atlanta. And, you know, Emily, I know I think you moved there a little bit later.
06:22But Amy, tell me about your folks and the house that you grew up in.
06:28Well, I grew up I was born in downtown at Grady Hospital and my dad and mom and my dad was a
06:35doctor and he was actually doing his residency down there when I was born.
06:38But we lived in a little suburban house.
06:41I'm not little, but it was, you know, big enough for full.
06:44First, we lived in a tiny little house in North Dekalb County,
06:47and all the kids had one room and my parents had another.
06:50And then when my brother was right after he was born, we moved to a bigger house and
06:55I shared a room.
06:56And but my brother and my older sister didn't.
06:59And as people went to college, they got their own rooms.
07:02And it was across the street from high school and a good walk from the elementary school
07:06through the woods.
07:07And my kindergarten also was like a little like just a hop, skip and a jump.
07:11And, you know, it was very suburban public high school life.
07:15Pep rallies, bonfires on the field at the time.
07:18You know, you could do a lot of stuff that you can't do now.
07:21Homecoming parades with the we usually had the float built at our house,
07:26you know, and just just a really normal, you know, barbecues in the backyard,
07:30treehouse, cooking hot dogs, you know, on over a fire with my little brother.
07:35Just very idyllic, you know, suburban, southern, warm outside,
07:41running through the streets, playing hide and seek kind of life, you know.
07:43And Decatur really has its own identity.
07:47I mean, outside of Atlanta, it's got its own
07:49vibe, its own personality, right?
07:51Yeah, I mean, when I was growing up, I went to Decatur first Methodist, which is downtown
07:55Decatur.
07:56You know, it was going through a kind of a rough spot and was kind of a ghost town in
08:02some ways.
08:02I mean, there was there was people that live there.
08:05A lot of the business had been shuttered.
08:07There was, you know, like a liquor store and drug store.
08:10And there's a couple of old restaurants, a couple of them.
08:13I think one of them survived.
08:15But the square, you know, has become a totally different place in the last 25 years.
08:21Like, it's, you know, just I won't say gentrified necessarily, because it's I think
08:26they've done a pretty decent job of having housing and making sure the community is a
08:31little bit intact.
08:32But it's, you know, it's expensive to live there now in Decatur.
08:34But it's a cool, rich, you know, diverse place.
08:40You know, when it first started changing, it went through a moment where I thought,
08:43oh, God, they're going to ruin it, because it was pretty diverse.
08:47And a lot of older folks, you know, when I was growing up and kids at the high school
08:51and stuff like that, and very, like, open and just you could just walk around everywhere
08:56and have fun and there was no rules anywhere.
08:58And then things started getting built and it started getting really closed in.
09:01But now when you look at it and you walk around, it's just like, so great.
09:05It's like every walk of life and, you know, good restaurants from the inexpensive ones
09:11to the expensive ones and sort of it serves a lot of different needs.
09:14And I don't know, I feel pretty good about the direction it went as far as that goes.
09:19I don't know if that's important, but for me, it is important.
09:23Yeah, sure it is.
09:25Yeah, and I go and I'm in, you know, my siblings live in Decatur and I still go to that church
09:29every now and then, although I go to a little neighborhood church more often where I went
09:33to kindergarten over where my old high school is.
09:36But, you know, but yeah, it's a pretty interesting place now.
09:41Very gay friendly and, you know, all that, all that stuff.
09:45Well, I just I love that you've stayed there and have such deep roots there.
09:51It's a great place and it's what it sounds like a great place to grow up.
09:56Emily, you moved to Atlanta area later, like I think you were around 10 years old, right?
10:07Yeah.
10:08Tell me a little bit about your house and the neighborhood you grew up in.
10:11I was born in the inner city of New Haven.
10:14My dad was a student, New Haven, Connecticut.
10:16And then we moved to Hamden, which is a suburb, really, for just a couple of years.
10:21And then dad got a position at Emory University, which is why we came down to Georgia.
10:25So I was about 10.
10:27And I'll never forget because we my parents bought this split level house that we lived
10:33in forever.
10:35It cost about what an economy car costs now.
10:38Oh, there's things I remember that are just like, whoa, because back then, whoa, you're
10:44buying a house in Georgia.
10:46And, you know, interestingly enough, and sadly, the day that we drove down was the day we
10:54heard on the radio that Martin Luther King Jr.'s mother was killed in the church.
11:00And it was a very pivotal moment where my parents, I remember them talking like, where
11:06are we going?
11:07Into what are we going?
11:08You know, the South.
11:11And but that was just the first introductory moment, which was tragic.
11:16But then we got into our house.
11:19I remember the Mayflower truck.
11:22I remember the first meal we had in the family was at Arby's because I'm such a foodie.
11:27All I, Amy knows this, my memory is terrible, but I could probably almost remember almost
11:32everything I've ever eaten in my life.
11:34So we had Arby's.
11:35That was the first meal.
11:36And then, you know, we lived on a cul-de-sac or at the corner of a street at a cul-de-sac.
11:42So I grew up playing kickball in the street.
11:46You know, all the kids playing football on my side yard.
11:50We had a childhood at, you know, in Georgia that was like, you went outside after school
11:55and you played until your mom called you at six o'clock for dinner.
11:58So it was idyllic, you know, for people who were privileged in the way that we were,
12:05you know, we weren't worrying about where our food was coming from.
12:08And we weren't worrying about, we were safe, you know, in our sort of neck of the woods.
12:13And we played with the kids.
12:14And then like Amy, I walked to elementary school.
12:17That's where I met Amy at Laurel Ridge Elementary School.
12:19She was the other gal who played guitar and then ended up going to Shamrock High School,
12:25where we became like besties and joined the chorus and then started playing together.
12:29But yeah, my youth was like filled with family trips to Stone Mountain, climbing up Stone
12:37Mountain, and like Amy was saying, like cookouts in the backyard.
12:42I remember it always being hot.
12:45My sister and I used to climb out on a little roof on our house and listen to Q,
12:49it was a QXI, I think, like Top 40 radio while we're sunbathing out,
12:54which I never should have been doing, sunbathing with my skin.
12:58But just that kind of thing, you know, really close with my sisters, close with my family,
13:04good neighbors, fun playing.
13:07And yeah, it was really, really good.
13:10So Emily, where did the cooking interest come from?
13:13Did you have a cook in your family who was particularly inspiring to you?
13:18Was it a mom or grandmother or someone else?
13:21Well, my mom, I don't know.
13:22I think I came into the world kind of obsessed or focused on food because my mom,
13:27she was like, I would say like a typical casserole maker.
13:31I know she made a really good spaghetti and a really good tuna sandwich, but
13:34she was just trying to, I remember going to the grocery store with her and she was on a $35
13:40a week budget.
13:41I can remember this clearly and having to put things back.
13:44And so she kind of strung it all together, you know, lots of casseroles, a pound of hamburger,
13:50whatever, and like, like a very special dish would be Sunday after church, she might roast
13:54a chicken.
13:55And that was like, ooh, la la, you know, but I don't know why it was this way.
13:59I can remember when she had some group of friends over and made little like cucumber
14:04sandwiches on white bread.
14:06I remember all her recipes.
14:08We used to travel as a family.
14:10My parents are from Ohio.
14:11We'd go see my grandma in Ohio.
14:13And I can remember stopping at Howard Johnson's and being obsessed with the clam strip.
14:18So I don't know what to tell you except that.
14:21And my little sister and I were, Elizabeth, we talked about, we would be like the kind
14:26of sisters that would talk about our next meal while we were eating our current meal.
14:29So I just had a fascination and a love for food and a pretty eclectic palate at a fairly
14:35young age.
14:36Yeah.
14:37Well, it really seems to have turned into a lifelong passion and, you know, you were
14:42involved in the Flying Biscuit and the whole launch of that, which now has, I don't know
14:48how many locations, probably 25 or 30.
14:52And Watershed, which, you know, was kind of a iconic restaurant in Decatur.
15:00So it seems to have really, it seems like you, you know, put almost as much energy into
15:06the food as you have into the music in some ways.
15:09Well, for a while I did.
15:11There's a big difference between loving food and owning a restaurant because it is such
15:16a tough.
15:17It is a really tough business.
15:19And we never had any, we never had our sights set on expanding or anything like that.
15:24And that's how you can really do pretty comfortably well in the restaurant businesses.
15:28We have more than one and so on.
15:30But yeah, I mean, I spent, when we started Watershed in 1998, it was just me and my
15:36girlfriend at the time and two friends.
15:38And we just, Amy and I had some time off the road and we're like, well, what do we really
15:42love?
15:42And we really enjoyed, you know, eating food together.
15:46And back in that day, drinking wine, I don't drink alcohol anymore, but you know, it gave
15:50us great access to wonderful wines.
15:52We learned all about that.
15:53It was kind of a world.
15:55And then we just got blessed with Scott Peacock coming on to help us with the cooking.
15:59That really turned Watershed around.
16:02He's so gifted.
16:03And then he won the James Beard award.
16:05But Flying Biscuit, Delia Champion was a friend and she and her two friends were starting
16:11Flying Biscuit.
16:12And I just really wanted to invest in local businesses.
16:15So I just loaned her a little bit of money.
16:18And then I, you know, I loaned Eddie's Attic a little bit of money and Decatur and the
16:24Cook's Warehouse.
16:25And I was just really into supporting local mom and pops.
16:30Well, that's great.
16:31It sure has flourished, which you must be happy to see.
16:35Well, so Amy, what about you on the food side?
16:38You grew up in a pretty big family.
16:41Who was feeding all those folks?
16:43You have two sisters and a brother?
16:46Yeah.
16:47Well, my mom was feeding all of us.
16:49It was meatloaf and it was 70s and 80s food.
16:55So we ate Spam.
16:57We ate meatloaf.
17:00We grilled at least once a week.
17:01My dad would grill.
17:04I wasn't really a big meat eater.
17:06I ate it, but my steak had to be well done.
17:09My favorite food was the Varsity Chili Dog.
17:14When I became a vegetarian, that was the hardest thing to give up, is the Varsity Chili Dog.
17:19But my mom was good, like a good, solid Southern cook.
17:25Fried chicken, everything.
17:26But at some age in high school, I just started kind of rejecting meat.
17:30And then in college, became a vegetarian.
17:33My parents, they did not understand that at first.
17:35But we had a really big garden that we all worked in and weeded and picked.
17:40We actually had a piece of property that terraced down to a creek.
17:44And it was a pretty big piece of property for a neighborhood.
17:47And at the bottom, my dad planted a huge garden that we had food from all summer and ate that.
17:55Squash, beans, okra, tomatoes.
17:59We had peach trees.
18:00We had blueberries, cucumbers, every Southern crop.
18:04I think the only thing we didn't successfully eat a plant was potatoes.
18:07It never worked for us.
18:08But we all worked in the garden and picked stuff and did all the weeding.
18:14But my older sister really developed a big fascination with gardening.
18:18And she became very good at organic gardening.
18:23Would make her whole front yard at her house into an organic garden and
18:26can all the vegetables and make amazing tomato sauces.
18:30Just a really great cook.
18:32And her partner, wife, is a great baker.
18:35And then my other sister is really good at cooking.
18:37And my brother has just become a great cook.
18:39I'm just kind of a throw-it-together cook.
18:42I mean, I like ethnic food the best.
18:43So I'm Thai, Indian, Asian food.
18:48That's what I really love.
18:49I eat a lot of Mexican.
18:52I'll make black beans from scratch for the week and things like that.
18:57You know, that I just kind of focus on and learn how to do.
19:00Or I'll learn one other recipe and figure that out.
19:03I like cooking, but I'm just not...
19:04I don't have a lot of time.
19:06So I'm mostly doing like a big salad for three days or rice and beans.
19:11And I order the beans from like a really good place out in California that has great beans.
19:16And, you know, make great beans.
19:18But then I'll get...
19:19You know, in Atlanta, there's a place called Thai Chili.
19:21And you can buy the frozen...
19:23You can buy their sauce frozen.
19:25Their penang and all their curry sauces.
19:28So I just buy a bunch of bags of that and just saute some tofu up and make my own Thai meal at
19:34home because their sauces are amazing.
19:36And it's like five bucks a bag, you know.
19:38And so I discovered that.
19:41And then I had a...
19:42You know, I didn't discover Indian food until my sophomore year at Emory.
19:48The Southern Indian restaurants started opening up on Scott Boulevard.
19:52And it's all vegetarian, you know, and all fried.
19:54And I must have eaten there four days a week at the Indian Delights place and gained, you know,
19:5920 pounds.
20:00It was so good.
20:02So that's when I discovered my love of like Indian food.
20:04And then I discovered Thai food after that.
20:07Because before that, I was just like, you know, veggie dogs.
20:09And well, I ate a lot of pork chops in college.
20:12And then I turned a vegetarian.
20:13I had to search for what to eat, you know, because I didn't grow up that way.
20:17So, you know, a lot of my life has been focused on just how to find really good vegetarian food.
20:23And people that really know how to cook vegetables and know how to make proteins that are
20:27not just a portobello mushroom between two buns kind of thing, you know.
20:31Well, it sounds like the, you know, all that food has kind of come to you.
20:36I mean, there's just so much, so much great food in North Georgia now.
20:41And so, yeah, you don't have to go very far.
20:44No, you don't.
20:45Well, listen, I want to talk about the new documentary a little bit more.
20:49It's called It's Only Life After All.
20:51Named after, you know, a very famous song of yours, a line in a very famous song of yours.
20:57And it was incredible to me to see all this footage that y'all had collected over the years.
21:06I mean, it just, you know, it's like you had the camera on all the time.
21:13And to see, you know, you kind of grow up basically as friends, as artists, as musicians.
21:22And, you know, I was really struck seeing particularly
21:28some of the scenes of you playing together when you're quite young.
21:32And it seems like the chemistry between you as artists was just almost instantaneous.
21:38Talk to me about one of those first times when y'all really recognized that,
21:43when you were playing together and you said, wow, okay, this is something really special.
21:51I mean, we used to go over to Amy's basement at our house.
21:55And that's where we really started.
21:56That's where we did most of our practicing or playing, I should say.
21:59We just, we had an English teacher, Ellis Lloyd, who was the AP English teacher.
22:05And Amy was a year younger than I in school.
22:09But like all our friends and people took AP English.
22:12And we all knew Ellis Lloyd.
22:14He was an amazing teacher.
22:16So influential that we named our, when we made our first single,
22:20we named our little self record label, Jealous Records, J Ellis, after him.
22:25He is incredible, influential and wonderful teacher and human being.
22:28And anyway, so he's like, well, why don't you, you could do a show for the AP class.
22:33You could learn some songs and stuff.
22:34Because by this time we were both playing guitar and we were both writing songs.
22:39And so that's how we started.
22:41And so to answer your question, going over to Amy's and just starting to play and learn songs.
22:46I mean, we basically liked the same kind of music.
22:49And we each did something a little differently from each other,
22:52the way we played guitar, our vocal register.
22:55And it was like, it was just so wonderful because you had this person
23:00who you really connected with on a personal level.
23:03And then you had this music that we made together.
23:06And so it just became like the most fun thing that we did.
23:09And we just kept doing it for fun.
23:12And honestly, organically, it turned into a career.
23:15So you're how old when this is really starting to really click?
23:19I mean, I know you guys knew each other in elementary school, but.
23:23I'd say like, cause Emily was at Tulane University for a couple of years.
23:27And I went to Vandy for one year.
23:31And then so we came back to Emory at the same time.
23:34And we had played in the inter, you know, on weekends or during the summer
23:39or like we would get together and play at the Toco Tavern or whatever in Decatur
23:43and do a gig or a little flower pot sandwich place.
23:47Good old days.
23:50But then when we got to Emory, we were both in the same space.
23:53And, you know, and we were better, you know,
23:55I was definitely better at what I did at that point than I was when we started.
24:00And yeah, we just we started playing gigs at the dugout,
24:04little college place and playing on campus.
24:08And then we made a single.
24:09And I think that's when we really, you know, we came up with the name.
24:13We made a single.
24:13We started opening for bigger bands that would play at the, you know,
24:17places like at the time, like Moonshadow Saloon, sort of the,
24:21I guess they were considered like the it was a place where you might see,
24:24you know, Susanne Vega or something, you know, or the Roaches or
24:28Lloyd Cole and the Commotions or something like that.
24:30And we would open and then we would go to and then we made an EP.
24:34And then at that point, we kind of got turned on, like Kevin Kinney
24:38sort of let us play at a gig and a band called the Squalls let us play a gig in Athens.
24:42And then we sort of started meeting those folks.
24:45And we met this band called the Scallion Sisters, who became the Paper Dolls,
24:49Caroline Aiken and Dee Dee Vote and Missy Spirit and Cindy Diamond.
24:53Yeah, all those people took us under their wing.
24:56And I guess so you'd say like 86, you know, right when I was graduating,
25:01we were touring before.
25:02I mean, we were touring my senior year in college quite a bit.
25:05So I was, you know, doing a lot.
25:08And and I think that's when we started getting more serious.
25:11But it really was Emily kind of was wavering on career choices.
25:16And obviously, and I was just hell bent on, you know, this is what I want to do,
25:21you know, whether I have a degree or not or whatever.
25:24You know, I kind of had thought I might go to theology school.
25:28But when everything started getting when our crowd started getting bigger,
25:32and it seemed really solid, I thought, well, because I thought I had kind of a calling and
25:36because a friend of mine had died very young.
25:38And I kept seeing him and having these visions of him.
25:41And he was involved in my youth group.
25:42And I thought maybe I'm being called to the ministry because one of our other best friends
25:46did go to divinity school and Tom Elliott.
25:49And so but the music just drew me, you know, and I was like,
25:54I want to do this.
25:55You know, I want to I want to do it.
25:56I want I got interested in the business of it, the booking, the gigs, the
26:00promotion, making record, you know, all that stuff really was awesome.
26:05You know, the process.
26:05So for me, it probably was like 85, 86.
26:09That's when we really started develop a following, you know, and then in 87,
26:12we really like we were like regulars at Little Five Points Pub had a big crowd
26:16toward all the way up the East Coast and out to Texas and, you know, had a record.
26:20And we were getting played on the college radio, you know, just doing our own thing.
26:24And that's when it was really it's going great, you know, right before we got signed.
26:30Well, it's just so fun to see it all kind of strung together.
26:34It was really well done.
26:35It's well edited.
26:36And, you know, obviously, there was just there was always somebody who had
26:41the video camera on at some point or the tape recorder.
26:44You know, you mentioned Little Five Points.
26:47And I wanted to ask you about that because you talk about that in the in the documentary.
26:53And your mom and dad, Amy, were pretty conservative and, you know,
27:02perhaps a little bit uncomfortable with the gay community.
27:05But they would show up at Little Five Points and come see y'all play.
27:11And I'm just wondering what that experience was like for them and how that maybe
27:17changed their their perspective a little bit.
27:19I don't I don't know.
27:21You know, I should ask my mom about this.
27:24That's a good question to ask when we're sitting together.
27:28My dad has passed since.
27:30And, you know, I think their love for us, for me and Emily, it didn't matter.
27:36You know, I think it was uncomfortable for them to be around the queers, the punk rockers,
27:41the drag queens, everybody at Little Five Points pub, the Democrats, you know.
27:46I mean, they were Jimmy Carter voters, but they were Republicans, you know.
27:51But they loved us so much that it transcended their feelings around that.
27:55I mean, honestly, they would come to any gig.
27:56It didn't matter who was there.
27:58And they were also used to me bringing to the house like people that they weren't sure of,
28:03you know, but my dad one time at early on at like a gathering I had that they came to
28:09was like, you know, I realized he said, you know, a lot of your friends, they
28:15I can't understand what they look like, you know, kind of what they do with their
28:19piercings and whatever's happening with them and all the queer people.
28:23He's like, but, you know, I talked to a few of them.
28:25They're just so smart.
28:26That's what he said to me.
28:27I just remember him saying they're so smart and they really I'm really impressed.
28:32And I just he's like, I just I guess you just can't judge a book by its cover.
28:35You know, when he said that to me, that was in my 20s.
28:37And I was like, all right, he's he's definitely catching on.
28:41And, you know, they were very open, even if they were feeling uncomfortable.
28:46They never like they didn't let it on in public.
28:49You know what I mean?
28:50Like they were very Southern in that way, but they were very open about letting
28:54people into their lives and figuring out what to do about it later.
28:58Do you know what I mean?
28:59So, you know, I mean, my dad and mom were not comfortable with.
29:02I mean, we had a very hard time with the gay thing.
29:05And a lot of there was a lot of hard times growing up with that.
29:09You know, I won't I won't sugarcoat it.
29:12You know, it was very rough for my older sisters, especially because all three of us are gay.
29:16And my parents just really had a hard time adjusting.
29:18But my but they did not stop loving us, you know.
29:21But we did feel shunned quite, you know, at times.
29:26And I got the best of it.
29:27You know, I got the best thing because my older sisters went before me
29:30and they got the hardest sort of times.
29:32And then when it came to me, I was very open with my mom when things started happening.
29:40And I fell in love with someone my senior year.
29:42And and she was, you know, just I knew that they didn't like that.
29:45And they but they kind of tried to.
29:46But they but she did say something to me like, well, I kind of expected you to be different
29:50or something like that because I was such a boy when I was growing up, you know.
29:55But I think by that time, my mom was trying to work it out.
29:59It just it was really when my sister had her first baby that my dad and mom both really
30:05shifted because they became grandparents of a child of two gay women.
30:08And it all changed after that.
30:10And that was 1998, I think.
30:14And I mean, everything changed after that.
30:16Like it became like Mama and Papa Bear protecting their grandchild, you know.
30:21Interesting, yeah.
30:22Yeah.
30:22Yeah.
30:22I mean, my dad became a flaming gay supporter, you know, really, really, you know, they were
30:30trying to get rid of the organist at our church.
30:32The grandparent gene is strong.
30:34Yeah, it is.
30:35I mean, they were trying to fire the organist at our church because he was gay at Decatur
30:40First at the time.
30:42And my dad, he went and talked to the preacher and he was like, you can't do that, you know.
30:46So he shifted, I'd say.
30:49But that's a long answer anyway.
30:51Well, I want to ask y'all, you know, I've talked to other artists on this podcast, people
30:57like T.J. Osborne from the Brothers Osborne, who, you know, struggled for years with the
31:03timing of when he was going to come out as gay, at least to his fans.
31:08And you all were such pioneers on that front and always have been.
31:15And you're such icons and people look up to you.
31:18And you did so many of these things first.
31:21And I'm wondering if you ever hear from other artists, you know, without naming any names,
31:26just on how to manage that.
31:30I don't recall as much because, God, it feels like we've been out for so long and there
31:36have been a lot of changes and acceptance that's happened.
31:41Like, it's really slow in country music, like I think by the Osborne Brothers and like,
31:45whoa, like, I think you would literally have to think about whether or not and when you
31:51came out, because country music is really, except it's changing now.
31:54And now we're recognizing some of the sources of country music that weren't brought to light.
32:00Like, I think Beyonce's album is a big deal.
32:02And people are like, wow, you know, that's not country.
32:04But yes, it is.
32:05And the roots are there.
32:07But my point is that country largely is white and heteronormative.
32:11And so if you're a gay country artist, you would have to be, you would risk losing your
32:17listening audience, even today, I think, to some extent, even though it's getting better.
32:22But for us, by the time we started like hanging around with young artists who were queer,
32:28like Brandi Carlile, I don't know if she ever talked to you, Amy, but there was never,
32:32she was just queer.
32:33You know, we just knew her as soon as she was queer and other young artists.
32:38So I haven't personally had a conversation with a young artist that's like, well, how do you
32:43handle this being queer?
32:45Or how do you handle this?
32:46Which is very, very encouraging to me, because it's been a long time since Elton John came
32:52out and Ellen came out on her show.
32:54And all those things are like, you know, it's like dinosaurs.
32:58And now there's a lot of acceptance, but not as much in country music as there are in other
33:04genres of music.
33:05Yeah, it does seem to be a little slower to catch on in country.
33:12Yeah, I mean, I can think of, I mean, Shelly Wright came out, she would tell you that that
33:18was detrimental to her career, which you see is kind of like, you know, this very pretty,
33:23sexy country singer.
33:26I personally know of a couple country artists who are queer, but have not come out who are
33:31enjoying success.
33:33So I think, you know, the homophobia does exist, but there's been a lot of evolution
33:39and progress made.
33:40I'll say that I did, because I had a record label for, I still do, but when I was putting
33:45out other people's records, I did have conversations with probably four or five different artists
33:51in the last 20 years that were like, all right, you know, I'm just starting my career.
33:57What do you think about, you know, how do you balance having a strong gay audience and
34:02press and all that with trying to appeal to everybody else?
34:05So I did have a lot of conversations, but I think it's because I was on the business
34:09end of things so much.
34:11And I did have a lot of young artists who I was surprised even brought it up, to be
34:16honest with you, because I'd be like, what are you worried about?
34:18Like, this is great now.
34:21Like, I would always be like, lean into it.
34:24You know, your audience is going to be great.
34:27And they'd be scared.
34:28Oh, I don't want to get just gay press.
34:30I don't want to, you know, I want to get radio play.
34:32And I'd be like, you know, I don't think you can run from this.
34:36Like, I don't think it's like, you know, with the people I was talking to, they weren't
34:40going to like get away with trying to be straight, you know, it wasn't going to happen.
34:45So I just, I think that there, what we, like we have made so much progress, but I think
34:50there are still artists that are worried about it, you know, but not artists that are in
34:55their 20s, you know, unless they're singing country music and then they probably are.
34:59But like artists that I know that are doing punk rock in their 20s, they don't care.
35:02But even 20 years ago, some of those artists did when they would talk to me and I was putting
35:06their record out.
35:07They'd be like, you know, what do you, I don't want to do this.
35:11I don't want to be all over the gay press and not get this or this.
35:14And I was just really very surprised sometimes, you know, like, and in a good way, like, felt
35:20like I could say to them, I think it's okay.
35:23But in a sad way, I realized that some people are living in environments that doesn't feel
35:26like safe to be out.
35:28So, you know, and you, we all have our own internalized homophobia.
35:32Well, I remember TJ said, you know, he was, he was worried about it and they talked about
35:37it a lot and he talked with his brother about it.
35:39And then, you know, they finally decided, okay, now's the time.
35:43And, and he, I think he did it through an Instagram post and he was just overwhelmed
35:50by the positive response.
35:52It was just, you know.
35:54That's cool.
35:54100%, 100% positive.
35:58And that's cool.
35:59And which was, yeah, I think very gratifying and, and, and a relief and also gave them
36:06some confidence in, in, you know, where people are and where, where country music is.
36:11Yeah.
36:11Because, you know, have you noticed like when somebody, you know, makes a dig at someone
36:16or a gay issue comes up or, you know, queer issue or whatever, there's all these really
36:20great Americana and country writers that will come through and, you know, do positive
36:25comments and, you know, get the trolls out of the way, you know, and there's just so
36:31many, you know, like a Jason Isbell, you know, or.
36:35Maren Morris.
36:36Maren Morris.
36:36I was going to say, yeah.
36:37And it's, there's probably, you know, dozens that I can't think of right now, but people
36:43that'll just risk their own following or not care and support the gay artist.
36:50And that's huge.
36:52I mean, having allies is the biggest thing.
36:54And I'm, I think country and Americana has made, you know, because they had a long way
36:59to go, they've made an exponential progress in the last five years to me.
37:03For sure.
37:03Yeah.
37:04Well, I want to ask y'all about a couple songs.
37:07And one of them is a new song and it's called What We Want to Be.
37:12And I saw y'all perform this on the Today Show and it's a great song.
37:19Tell me a little bit about that one and how it came into being.
37:23The movie needed an end credit song and they asked us to work on something.
37:27And Emily and I were both super busy and Emily and I kept like putting it off, putting it
37:32off, putting off.
37:33And finally, I was like, OK, I got three days.
37:35I'm going to work on something.
37:36And Emily said, go for it.
37:38Because, you know, it was.
37:40But I read the script a bunch and really dug into like the story has and some of my own
37:46experiences in that moment that I was feeling and kind of how I could relate to those two
37:51characters and just wrote that.
37:53And then we worked on the arrangement together and I kept sending it to Emily and, you know,
37:58finish this for me.
37:59No, no, it's good enough.
38:00You know, you got it.
38:01But I was like, just it's so hard to write for a movie, you know what I mean?
38:06So I never could quite figure out, like, how do you make it for the movie?
38:10But I just tried to, in the end, make it to be a song that I would write anyway for me,
38:16you know.
38:17So it's it's the guys in the movies.
38:19It's their story kind of talking to each other.
38:21But each character had something that I could relate to of the way I was feeling at the
38:26moment with my own, you know, what was going on in my own life.
38:30So it was easy for me to project into that.
38:33And and and as soon as I figured out that's what I needed to do, because I just not Emily
38:39has written for things and co-wrote and done more of this kind of thing and musicals and
38:44stuff.
38:44So I'm I was like, I've never just written a song for a film.
38:49But yeah, but I mean, it's OK.
38:50So I don't know if it's great or anything, but it's it's a fun song and has a good message.
38:55And it's going to learn how to play a song.
38:57Yeah, well, I guess, you know, there's if when it comes to selling a song, you'll probably
39:04know how to do that.
39:05But you sure did sell it on The Today Show and it sounded great.
39:09And I think people are going to love it.
39:11Good, good, good.
39:13The new film is called Glitter and Doom, and it's kind of a rom-com.
39:18I haven't seen the film.
39:19I saw the trailer, but it's kind of a rom-com that is set to your music.
39:24How was it for y'all hearing all these songs come to life in a totally new way?
39:33I mean, that's one of the things that kept us interested and excited about the film the
39:37whole way along is because we'd already agreed to have our music used once we read the script.
39:43But Michelle Shamuel is the name of the woman who did all the arrangements and producing
39:48of the tracks.
39:49And what she did, it's so cool because I don't even hear the songs in the way that I heard
39:55them when it was just the songs that Amy and I were doing together.
39:58She so creatively mashed up songs and gave them different treatments, different tempos.
40:05The whole thing was so creative and unusual because to me, I'm not really a big fan of
40:11covers, so to speak.
40:13But if you can get someone to do a cover creatively, and in my opinion, she took every single
40:18song and did a cover creatively, and it fit so well in the film.
40:23So just kudos to Michelle for the job that she did.
40:27And when we saw the film in New York, when it was being shown on a screen at a movie
40:32theater, I felt like a fan of the songs, if I can even admit that, because I really loved
40:38the way that they were arranged and produced in a way that I wouldn't have felt if they
40:42just sounded like the same thing that Amy and I did together.
40:45So I thought that was wonderful.
40:48Do you have a favorite performance or a favorite song that you feel like really kind of, you
40:53know, hit another level?
40:57In the movie?
40:57In Glitter and Doom?
40:59Yeah.
41:00Well, I really like the way that they used the song Match, and I also like the way that
41:07they used some obscure song of Amy called Center Stage that's from our first album that
41:14we don't even play live.
41:16I thought they used that so creatively and effectively, and the lyrics fit, and it was
41:21just nice to hear that song have like a second life, so to speak.
41:25And then I liked, you know, Get Out the Map because they just made it so joyful with all
41:29the people skipping along and singing it.
41:31So just a wonderful use of the songs.
41:35I just want to ask you about an old one real quick.
41:38You know, there's a song that I've always loved called Hammer and a Nail, and I think
41:43Emily, you wrote this one.
41:45Yeah.
41:46And, you know, I was just wondering if you remember kind of where you were physically
41:51and mentally when you wrote that one.
41:54I do remember exactly where I was.
41:57And this is a song to remind me that it's not productive.
42:03It's great to sit and ruminate on things and think on things and even make a plan.
42:09But the best thing is actually putting your thoughts into action, making a decision, doing
42:14work.
42:15And there are some references to like, even my sweat smelled clean.
42:19It was like, it is time in life to really get in there.
42:23You know, there's pain, there's suffering, there's dirty things.
42:27Like, you know, let's just all get in there and get to work.
42:32So let's get a hammer and a nail.
42:33And I thought of just like some classic sculptural pose of a, you know, a chin and a hand.
42:40And the difference between philosophizing and thinking and actually taking action.
42:45So the song is kind of a call to action.
42:48And it was written to inspire my own self.
42:51I wasn't trying to say to anyone else, you should get a hammer and a nail.
42:55It was more like, okay, this is the way I want to try to live.
42:59Well, it's an inspiring song and it's a great message.
43:01And, you know, I think, you know, it's a reminder that we've all got work to do.
43:06It's also cool.
43:07I should mention that, you know, that's from the album Nomads, Indian Saints.
43:10And we shot a video for that.
43:12And Todd Murphy, who's, you know, a Georgia artist, did the cover work for that and was
43:18in the video.
43:19And so I like to think because Todd, he's not with us anymore on this earth, but he
43:24was such an influence and a wonderful artist.
43:26And so it's nice to have captured that spirit and him on camera doing that.
43:33Well, I just have one more question for y'all.
43:36Amy, I'll start with you.
43:37What does it mean to you to be Southern?
43:39I have so much gratitude for being Southern.
43:44It means that you understand the tie to the land and the sort of stillness of the South.
43:56And at the same time, you have a dialogue, a constant dialogue with needing healing and
44:05needing to build bridges and repair a lot of damage.
44:09And I'm grateful for that because it's given me a lot of just gifts about compassion and
44:16empathy.
44:17We have a way, Southerners, of being able to hold those things that are negative in
44:22our family backgrounds with the healing that we do now and still love our families and
44:28love our, you know, our ancestors and but also look toward a new day, you know.
44:35And I think it also means like big time enjoyment of food at big family tables.
44:40I'll say that since this is a food thing.
44:42I will include that because it is a big part of life.
44:45You know, I mean, it honestly is.
44:47It's like, what are you bringing to eat?
44:52That's very true.
44:55Emily, what about you?
44:56Well, I feel sometimes like a kid outside of a candy store looking in because there's
45:01part of me that wishes I were from here, like born here, you know, because I feel
45:07Southern.
45:08I don't feel like where I came from geographically.
45:13So all the things that Amy's talking about are not things that I feel in the bones from
45:20my ancestors.
45:21But being a transplant, having lived here for 50 years, this is my home.
45:27I can't imagine living outside of the South.
45:31And the struggle is real, but also, on the other hand, where the struggle is real, you
45:38just have the most inspiring things happen.
45:41Community work, community change.
45:43I think of some of the African-American politicians like Stacey Abrams and, you know, John Lewis.
45:49I voted for him.
45:50He was my congressman.
45:51So a whole litany of mayors, politicians, and local activists.
45:57Cynthia McKinney, she was such a firebrand, you know, and so I have a deep appreciation
46:03for what has come out of the suffering and some of the ashes in the South to lead us
46:08towards a future.
46:09And I find that very, very inspiring, exciting.
46:13And then historically, you know, and the weather, the things that Amy's mentioned, the stillness.
46:18I can hear the kind of birds.
46:19I can hear the owl.
46:21I can hear the bugs.
46:23I can feel the sweat and the humidity.
46:25And I love a Southern accent from anywhere, Tennessee, Georgia, this part of Georgia,
46:30that part of Georgia, whatever.
46:32So such a deep love for the South, but a little bit of a feeling like, oh man, do I count?
46:38Am I one of y'all?
46:42Of course.
46:43I think, I mean, 50 years.
46:44Come on, Emily.
46:45I think, yeah.
46:46Oh, I can only be honest about it.
46:49Just a little bit of wistfulness.
46:51But yeah, I'm definitely a grateful transplant.
46:56Well, Amy and Emily, the Indigo Girls, thank you so much for being on Biscuits and Jam.
47:01Thanks for having us.
47:02Thanks for having us.
47:04What a great podcast.
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