00:00But the London Marathon is charging ahead, and so are transgender women.
00:05Yes, organisers say that runners can self-ID their gender for the mass race,
00:10despite a Supreme Court ruling on biological sex.
00:13Well, it's a move that is reigniting debate over sport identity and fairness,
00:18just days ahead of that marathon start.
00:21Well, joining us now is transgender marathon runner Glenique Frank.
00:25Glenique, there should be no barriers to anybody running in this race.
00:32It's a race for the general public.
00:34But there are only two sexes, male and female.
00:37Why should male runners be allowed to record themselves as female?
00:43Well, when you, again, this whole transgender thing that's happened,
00:47and I'm so glad that you're calling me again on the whole of the UK,
00:50because I was picked on in 2023.
00:52Because in the mass race, as you said, it's an open race.
00:56It's a charity race, because there's not only transgender people in the race.
00:59There's also disabled people in the race.
01:01So people could complain about that.
01:02The able-bodied people don't complain about that.
01:05But with transgender women, it's a mass race.
01:08That's what the question was.
01:09Forget about the Supreme Court hearing and all that.
01:12That's a whole other thing, because this is just about one event.
01:16And it's in the mass race, the charity race.
01:18And at the moment, what I keep trying to campaign for,
01:22why can't you have male, female and then LGBTQ+,
01:26which stands for all the different and keep everybody happy.
01:30You know, non-binary and other is just, to me, is just a sexual category.
01:35It's not gender.
01:36So why can't they just keep it fair and have a category of LGBTQ+.
01:41Because then you'd force the lesbians and the gay and the bisexual people
01:45to not run with the straight people.
01:47But hang on, they are there, because do you know what LGBTQ+, stands for?
01:51That's the whole thing.
01:52Lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender.
01:54There you go.
01:55So we're all in one happy race.
01:57But why would a gay woman or a gay man not be allowed to compete with straight people?
02:04Well, they are there.
02:05They are in the same race as straight people.
02:07I don't understand that question.
02:08Do you not accept that your sexuality has absolutely no impact on your sports performance,
02:14but your sex, whether you're male or female,
02:17has an enormous impact on your sports performance?
02:19This is biological, going back to the whole biological thing again.
02:22And what we're trying to say.
02:23Well, that's the reason we have single-sex sports, isn't it?
02:25Because males have such an inherent advantage over women.
02:28This is not the question you've heard me about,
02:30what's my opinion on what Hugh's saying about the race?
02:33And that's what I'm giving you.
02:35Don't go into another whole category and sidetrack me,
02:37because that's a whole other kind of words we need to open and discuss.
02:41I think what we're asking you is,
02:43nobody thinks that anybody should be banned from entering the London Marathon.
02:48It is open to all people, as you say.
02:50But for the purpose of recording the results,
02:53which is a very important thing to many people, what time they get,
02:57then the categories should be male or female.
02:59And how you are recorded should be on the base of your biological sex.
03:03That's the argument.
03:03Well, like I said to you, when I was picked up by Mari Yamanouchi,
03:07and I didn't want to hurt anybody,
03:09why couldn't she phone me personally and say,
03:11what category are you under?
03:12There's no category for me.
03:14There's non-binary or other.
03:15So you'd like a third category?
03:18No, just three.
03:19Male, female and then LGBTQ+.
03:22Right.
03:22Well, there is male, female and non-binary, I think,
03:25in the current set-up.
03:27Well, the thing is, non-binary will fit under LGBTQ+,
03:29because that's what it's all about.
03:30Because you don't identify as non-binary.
03:32It's to keep the same-sex people happy,
03:34and this is what it's all about.
03:36Let's be all happy.
03:37But the thing is, when it comes to a mass race, like you said,
03:40I could end up, if there was a category called unicorn,
03:43I could have entered under that.
03:44But there's no category for me, transgender people.
03:47You see what I mean?
03:48So I've got female genitalia.
03:50Now, where am I going to go?
03:51What toilet to go in?
03:52But I think, let's get this away from toilets,
03:55because this is not about single-sex spaces.
03:57This is about how should the results be recorded?
04:01And the organisers of the marathon are saying
04:04that they are not going to change as a result of the Supreme Court ruling.
04:08They are waiting for further guidance
04:09and will continue to allow males to enter as females.
04:13Yeah, well, but I'm not...
04:14But you'd be careful,
04:16because as transgender males now are women.
04:19Well, they're not in law, biology or fact,
04:22but that is what the argument's about.
04:24The thing is, a transgender woman is a woman,
04:28because we've got female genitalia.
04:32No, that's not what makes a woman, though, is it?
04:33It's the fact that you've got X, Y chromosomes that makes you a man.
04:37Well, let me tell you now that in the elite game,
04:39because I'm a personal trainer, you're in my gym right now,
04:42and some of the elite women beat the elite men.
04:44So what are you going to say about that?
04:45Because their testosterone levels are actually quite higher than mine.
04:49No, that is interesting.
04:50I'm afraid we could, I'm sure,
04:51do a back and forth for a long, long time.
04:53But, Gleney, Frank, that's all we've got time for.
04:55James Jenden, marathon runner,
04:56really appreciate you coming on and putting forward your case there.
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