00:00We're joined by Dr. Ernie Hunter-Kamp and Nigel Nelson in the studio.
00:03They've been squabbling off air, so they've been squabbling on air.
00:08Finally, your leader.
00:10He speaks. He has a view.
00:13And he's spoken on the Supreme Court ruling, Nigel.
00:17I have not heard this this morning, obviously, and I've not heard him.
00:20He says a woman is a woman.
00:23A woman is an adult female.
00:24A woman is an adult female.
00:25And unprovidably supported the ruling.
00:27Right. Well, the next stage for all this is going to be how you sort out the Gender Recognition Act.
00:34You scrap it.
00:34Where we have a situation where...
00:37Now, this came from 2004, before the Equalities Act.
00:40Yes, that's right.
00:42But there's still the situation where a man can be a woman officially
00:48on the basis they can change their birth certificate and their passport.
00:52So the gender recognition certificate, which costs £5, is pretty much redundant now.
00:58Well, it's not... No, it's not redundant.
00:59I mean, not many people actually use it.
01:01Well, I think there's only 10,000 anyway.
01:03Yeah, that's right.
01:04That's the time.
01:05I think there's 8,000 since it actually started.
01:08But the point about that is that you have to prove...
01:14Or you have to have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria.
01:17You have to live in your acquired gender for two years.
01:19How do you live as of another sex for two years?
01:22You just wear the other clothes.
01:23That's it.
01:23Is that easy?
01:24Just wear different clothes?
01:25Well, I mean, it depends how you want to live in that...
01:28No, no.
01:28It's a genuine...
01:29I don't know.
01:29I mean, I don't know how...
01:31But Nigel, does it have a point?
01:33We now have this situation where you can change your sex on your birth certificate if you follow this process,
01:38but it doesn't mean anything in law and life because you now, we assume, will be excluded from single-sex births.
01:44Right.
01:45And also, it's dangerous.
01:46And I explained this to Nigel this morning, that if I'm a doctor and you, Miriam, which I am...
01:51I forgot that for a moment.
01:53And you come to me, but you are actually a man, but you look like a woman, and your medical records have been changed to tell me that you're a man,
02:00and you come in, or the other way around, whatever it is.
02:02Say you come in, you're a man, but you were a woman, and you've got tummy ache, and I do all of the investigations that I need to do,
02:08but the one thing I don't investigate is ovarian cancer because you're a man, you don't have ovaries.
02:12I miss your cancer early, and you then represent later with terminal ovarian cancer.
02:17Whose fault is it?
02:18Is it mine?
02:19Is it yours?
02:20This is a nonsense.
02:22We need to scrap the Gender Recognition Act and rescind all of the certificates.
02:27I don't mind how anybody wants to live.
02:29If they want to live looking like a woman with a dress on and high heels and whatever it is they feel makes a woman, that's fine.
02:35But what they can't do, or shouldn't be able to do, is change data.
02:39Because data is how we plan societies.
02:42We won't be able to plan for our prisons, for our health services, for our schools, anything else.
02:48I get that.
02:48I'm just being deaf as a advocate, because I'm with you 100%, but Nigel's point, what do we do about the person who has fully transitioned from male to female?
02:56Which are very few.
02:57Which are very few, but they exist.
02:59Where do they, there's a public loo, male and female, where do they go?
03:04Well, as I've always said, as a woman, my job is not to find their solutions for them.
03:12My job is to protect women and women's spaces.
03:16So they're on their own then?
03:17They have to find their own solutions.
03:18Now, be that maybe it's a third space.
03:20But the solution there is a unisexed, unisexed toilet.
03:23Or a disabled toilet, if there is not a unisexed toilet.
03:24It's a third space.
03:26Because I think the point...
03:27And there's lots of those now around anyway, let's be honest.
03:29And the point that's often missed in this is, the reason for single-sex toilets is not just because women like to go in there and do their make-up together.
03:36It's because, sadly, almost all sex offences are committed by men.
03:40It's still a tiny proportion of men, obviously, but in intimate spaces...
03:43But we don't know who they are.
03:44Exactly.
03:45And transitioning from male to female does not change the pattern of male sex offence.
03:50It doesn't.
03:50In fact, there are proportionally much more trans women, so men, in prison for sex offences than there are non-trans men.
03:57I wonder what that is.
03:58I think some of it is because they transition after the offence to try and go to a female prison.
04:04But I think Miriam's right.
04:05You're talking tiny, tiny, you know, groups of people here.
04:08I know we are, but you know what?
04:09If men are allowed to go in women's toilets, predatory men will do that on purpose.
04:12Isn't that the whole point?
04:13Tiny, tiny group of people, and yet this whole country seems to have been consumed by this.
04:17Well, it's not.
04:18No, I don't think that's untrue.
04:20I think that the chattering classes have been consumed by it.
04:24Well, we've had the Supreme Court to rule on this, right?
04:26They did.
04:26Because of what madness was going on in Scotland.
04:28Yes, you go back to what the Supreme Court was actually doing.
04:31What they were ruling on was the membership of public bodies, public boards, where the Scots
04:42had decided on 50-50 male-female.
04:45The ridiculous situation that would have created, because they allowed trans women to identify
04:51as female, is you could have ended up with a board 100% biological male.
04:56And still said it was 50-50.
04:58Yeah.
04:59So the whole point was, the court saw this was a ridiculous situation.
05:03What they've actually said is that biological sex can't be changed.
05:09That's the most important thing.
05:12What effect that will have on behaviour, we'll have to see.
05:16But that's all they did.
05:17They didn't set an obligation on organisations to change their practices.
05:24But, Nigel...
05:24What it meant was that organisations can change their practices if they wished.
05:28In women's sport, it would be particularly important, because it means you could ban trans
05:33women from female events without any fear of any court action afterwards.
05:38It was an obligation, wasn't it?
05:40Because the impact of the ruling is that if you provide a single-sex service, it has
05:45to now be single-sex.
05:47So I think what it means is, if you decide that it's not going to be single-sex and a
05:51woman complains, then you have to bend to her view.
05:55Yes, that's right.
05:55Yes, that's what it means.
05:57But the point that you made there, Nigel, about you now don't have the right to change
06:00your biological sex, renders gender recognition certificates null and void, and it also
06:05means that all data, from police records to medical records, should go back to reflect
06:18biological sex.
06:20Is there...
06:20I'm getting on to Peter Pacific again.
06:22For instance, a women's only space, a changing room, what if the woman is, and I don't know
06:28if I'm allowed to say this, but I'm going to say it anyway, what I would call a butch,
06:31masculine-looking woman, maybe a lesbian, chooses to wear all-male clothes, Doc Martens,
06:38is someone going to have to...
06:39Is someone then...
06:40Is it then someone's job to say, excuse me, are you a man or a woman?
06:44I mean, I think that could happen, potentially.
06:46I don't think it will, because those women have always existed.
06:49Yes.
06:49And I've never been in a changing room and looked at one of those women.
06:53You know who they are.
06:54Well, I think that.
06:54And thought to myself, oh...
06:55Well, of course they are, because they're trying to obfugate the real facts here.
07:01And I think the fact that we've seen these people out protesting this weekend, and we
07:05will again next weekend, we have, on the one hand, people like Peter Tatchell saying,
07:10this has made no difference whatsoever.
07:11Well, if it's made no difference, what are they protesting?
07:14Good point.
07:14Well, you can...
07:15Well, you can...
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