Ukraine 'knows the value of peace better than anyone', former defense minister says

FRANCE 24 English

Visit our website: http://www.france24.com  Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/FRANCE24.English  Follow us on Twitter: https://twitter.com/France24_en

Transcript

00:00by Andriy Zagorodnyk, who's a former Defense Minister of Ukraine.

00:03Joining us, as you can see, via a satellite link up and in the studio,

00:08our international affairs editor, Philip Toll, to add more questions

00:13that we need to ask really with our special guest,

00:16former Defense Minister of Ukraine, advisor to the government of Volodymyr

00:19Zelensky as well.

00:20Andriy Zagorodnyk, thanks for being with us here on France 24.

00:23We appreciate your time ahead of these talks.

00:25Then tell us what you're expecting Volodymyr Zelensky to come back with.

00:30Well, first of all, he will clearly transmit the message

00:34that Ukraine is ready for peace.

00:37Ukraine knows value of peace better, probably than any other nation in the world.

00:42And certainly we are happy to

00:44to discuss this with the with the United States in all different formats, etc.

00:49At the same time, he would probably say that

00:53the peace must be protected.

00:54Otherwise, it's extremely risky to

00:58to do anything.

00:59If, for instance, there's no package of security guarantees,

01:03which we've been discussing for for a while now, because a peace

01:06without protection is essentially a huge vulnerability, is a huge liability.

01:10And also there is a massive risk that Russians may be using this time

01:15of the potential ceasefire to group forces

01:19and create additional striking groups

01:22and basically renew the offensive in some period of time.

01:26As we can see right now, Russia is absolutely not reconsidering its strategy.

01:30It's behaving as if whatever they're doing is

01:34is basically acceptable and doesn't breach international law, etc.,

01:38which, of course, is not the case.

01:40So the risk that Russia will renew the offensives would be would be very high.

01:44And I guess Zelensky would be addressing that issue.

01:47It's been another weekend of Russian bombardment of your country.

01:51The damage that's been done was in our report.

01:54It's very clear that Vladimir Putin is taking advantage

01:57of what Donald Trump has done at this present moment in time.

02:00How do you feel about the Trump administration

02:02withdrawing military aid, withdrawing intelligence sharing?

02:06Well, we we try very hard not to get too emotional about that, of course.

02:11We we understand that it's very difficult situation for us.

02:17You know, the unfortunately the position of U.S.

02:20administration right now is that they want to apply some pressure

02:25onto Ukraine.

02:27The thing is that Ukraine never been against

02:31discussions of the of the potential ceasefire at all.

02:35And we believe we were not in the position that we needed to be convinced,

02:39particularly with the withdrawal of the withdrawal of the support

02:44and the intelligence.

02:46So, yeah, it's tough.

02:47It's it's I have to say this is really, really difficult.

02:50And at the same time, we have a massive support from Europe

02:53for all countries in Europe, practically all.

02:56And we have a lot of people from United States

03:00like expressing their their solidarity with us.

03:03But yes, at the moment, position of the U.S.

03:06government is that they're not helping us, at least at the moment.

03:10Your assessment, Andre, seems very fair.

03:13I'll say that for you seem very fair minded about all of this,

03:16because there are some people who are calling Donald Trump a traitor.

03:19At least one French senator has called him a traitor.

03:21That's public on the record.

03:23That's been something that's been aired on many media sources

03:26calling Donald Trump a traitor.

03:28That's what they're saying.

03:30And in terms of what this has done to Ukraine's defence

03:33and the ability to fight off Russia, it must seem incredibly difficult

03:38because it seems that the Trump administration

03:41is not really asking Russia to compromise on anything.

03:44At the moment, that's the case.

03:45We we certainly not.

03:48We are first of all, we are staying very diplomatic with the United States.

03:53We're not going to any, you know, blames and accusations, et cetera,

03:57because we we still hope that we can build up a proper relationship

04:01with the U.S. administration.

04:03And we appreciate the

04:07that steps they're making in order to to create peace in Ukraine,

04:11because, as I said, the peace is absolute, has absolute value.

04:14There is nothing more valuable than peace.

04:16And nobody could be, you know, we cannot be convinced in the value of peace

04:21because anyone who comes to Ukraine, they see these destructions,

04:24they see the air raids, they see the, you know, funeral processions and so on.

04:29So we know value of peace more than anyone.

04:31But at the same time,

04:33we don't believe that unprotected peace is actually stable.

04:38And we're talking about security guarantees.

04:42And and some people in U.S.

04:44administration saying, well, they don't want peace enough.

04:46And that doesn't make that's that's doesn't make a connection

04:50because we we want peace enough, but at the same time, we want protected peace.

04:54That's the whole difference.

04:56And it's yes, it's a bit sometimes disheartening to see that

05:00we have to explain this over and over and over again as if we

05:04as if we don't want the war to end, you know, which is obviously not the case.

05:08Disheartening, you say, Andre, and I can imagine it must be incredibly

05:11infuriating for you because you are the ones who are being bombed.

05:15You are the ones who are being hit with drone strikes.

05:17You are the ones who are under this Russian offensive.

05:19And to have people in the White House talk about it in an almost disparaging way,

05:23it must be incredibly difficult for you to keep your temper.

05:26Can I just bring in Philip Toll, our international affairs editor for more?

05:29Philip, so many other aspects to this story.

05:31Andre, talking about the minerals deal at one point.

05:34What happens next? Different aspects.

05:36What's your take?

05:36Well, first of all, the mineral deal, I think, is on the part of Ukraine

05:42going to be used as some kind of bargaining chip for those security guarantees.

05:46What is unclear right now is whether or not that coalition

05:51of the willing of European peacekeepers from notably France,

05:56from the United Kingdom, from other EU nations

06:00is going to actually get to go into Ukraine and take part.

06:04That's been a

06:07something that's been rebuked and refused

06:09systematically by the Russian authorities up until now,

06:12saying it's nothing more than NATO

06:16getting a foothold on the ground in Ukraine.

06:18And that is something that they will never agree to.

06:20I think one of the interesting questions is, is that also a bargaining chip

06:25with the Russians over the future bargaining over what they get to keep

06:30if there has to be a negotiation in the future as to who gets what in Ukraine

06:35in exchange for a peace deal?

06:37Remember, we're still only talking about a ceasefire.

06:40That is one thing.

06:41But we're still a long way off from actually getting a final peace deal

06:44between Russia and Ukraine.

06:46And that is something that's going to be a lot more complicated to work out,

06:49because as you've been hearing,

06:51there's been basically no movement from the Russians at all.

06:53And I think the Russians feel that they don't really have to do anything

06:56because Donald Trump is doing it all for them.

06:58He's giving them the possibility of renewing bilateral relations

07:02with the United States.

07:03He's been criticizing Ukraine, putting the pressure on Ukraine

07:07and not really putting the pressure on the Russian authorities,

07:10apart from one little outburst on Friday

07:12where he said that he might increase sanctions on Russia.

07:16But those sanctions he was talking about wouldn't really have any effect anyway,

07:19because they're part of sanctions that already exist against the Russian authorities.

07:23So I think Ukraine looks as though it is in a slightly better position tonight

07:30going into these talks tomorrow.

07:32That appears to be what the United States is saying.

07:36The Middle East envoy, Steve Witkoff, says hopefully we can get things back on track.

07:41Volodymyr Zelensky says his team is attending to work with his American partners.

07:47So it looks more positive this week than it was a week ago.

07:50But even so, there's a lot of work still needing to be done.

07:53Andrei, can we bring you back in?

07:55Andrei Zagorodnik, former defence minister of Ukraine.

07:58Thanks for being so frank with us so far,

07:59because we really appreciate you speaking in such a clear and unequivocal way.

08:04I think what Philip's getting at as well is that there might be some that you have to give up.

08:09And obviously, Volodymyr Zelensky, you've all been clear you don't want to give up anything.

08:13You want to go back to pre-2014 borders.

08:17You want to get Crimea back.

08:18You want to get all the occupied Donbass back.

08:20You want to basically have Ukraine's integrity as you think it should be.

08:25Is there a point now where you have to sort of accept that you have to perhaps give up something to Russia?

08:32The thing is that we have to be very careful about what actually may be an enabler of peace.

08:39Because if Russia theoretically receives some sort of substantial concessions from anyone,

08:46that can actually embolden them and they can particularly say that, well, maybe that would

08:50make sense to accept that and then move further.

08:54Because for instance, they already said that the territories which they occupied already

08:58belong to Russia.

08:59So they're not subject of the negotiations and so on.

09:03I have to say this is extremely delicate matter and there is no rules.

09:08There is no like a book of how to end this.

09:12It's a whole question of like trial and basically seeing what works, what doesn't.

09:17So there is no very clear like a roadmap to the peace in this case.

09:22What is very clear, though, and I have to say that, is that if we delay the discussion

09:27of these security guarantees until the ceasefire, for example, the ceasefire is accepted and

09:34installed and then the discussion on the security guarantees will start, then there is a risk

09:40that Russia will block any of them.

09:42So for instance, the people are talking about bringing peacekeepers, bringing boots on the

09:46ground as they call it sometimes, getting some kind of a NATO-like type guarantees,

09:50et cetera, et cetera.

09:52Russia's clearly saying they're not accepting all that.

09:54And in the case of ceasefire, they could be simply like threatening to withdraw from the

09:58ceasefire.

09:59And as we'll know, not a single European politician will take a responsibility of doing something

10:04which would endanger the ceasefire.

10:06And so this whole, everything needs to be arranged in one package, like at once.

10:12And then it has a chance to hold.

10:14And answer your question, yes, I mean, we do realize that we will not be able to restore

10:18the territorial integrity of the country in the near future, most likely.

10:23At the same time, we have to be very careful because any recognition of the occupation

10:29has a risk of another occupation or another continuation of the conflict.

10:33So it's an extremely dangerous line and everybody needs to be careful and not to give out Ukrainian

10:41land thinking that you can buy land for peace.

10:44This is a very dangerous assumption.

10:46I hear what you're saying, Andrei, about that one.

10:49I want to ask you about the mineral deal, because there was much talk from Trump's office

10:53that this is the way ahead.

10:55This will be a way of achieving peace and obviously bringing economic prosperity.

11:00That's what they're talking about.

11:01But is he being naive and thinking that Vladimir Putin would go along with that and just be

11:05satisfied with that?

11:08Mineral deal is certainly could be interesting because that brings the vested interest of

11:13large American capital in Ukraine, potentially at least.

11:16So if it's fair in terms of the distribution of the assets and all that stuff, you know,

11:22like basically commercial aspects, then potentially it could be quite a substantial benefit to

11:29Ukraine and to Ukrainian-American relations and potentially peace in the region.

11:35Because indeed, if there is, like, a large capital vested in the, has a vested interest

11:39in the region, then certainly its lobbying power can help to protect that area, potentially.

11:46The thing is that it's definitely not enough on its own.

11:50So we cannot say that, okay, the mineral deal will completely be, like, enough as a guarantee

11:56and essentially will bring, you know, will guarantee the peace on its own.

12:00First of all, we have seen cases when the United States entered into similar arrangements.

12:08I have to remind that with the president of Afghanistan there was a very similar arrangement.

12:12It never was concluded, but at least it was already on the sort of final stages.

12:17And that didn't help Afghanistan much.

12:19But also Russia may still attack Ukraine, and technically they can try to arrange, I

12:26mean, some sort of agreement with U.S. or whatever else.

12:29But basically the mineral deal itself cannot be considered as enough in order to secure

12:36peace in the region.

12:37It has to be supported by the military capabilities, similar to how NATO, for instance, is technically

12:45protecting Europe and so on.

12:48Of course, we cannot say that Ukraine will have NATO-like guarantees, but at least some

12:52kind of military protection there must be in place.

12:56Korea, South Korea is another example from 1953, also worth looking at as a, for inspiration,

13:04let's say.

13:05Andrej, question from Phil Patel.

13:06Yeah, just very briefly, maybe if you could.

13:09There's a lot of discussion going on about the incursion by Ukrainian forces into Russian

13:15territory into the Kursk region, and the pushback by the Russian forces right now, which look

13:21like they could encircle the Ukrainian forces.

13:24Is it worth Ukraine keeping that incursion into Russian territory going, or is there

13:30growing pressure on the Ukrainian authorities to withdraw from there to reduce the number

13:34of casualties that could be incurred if they stay on the ground?

13:39There is no reason to stay there longer than absolutely necessary.

13:45Ukraine was keeping quite confidently those territories until it had the intelligence.

13:51As you can see, the withdrawal of intelligence and worsening situation in Kursk basically

13:58coincided with time, and that's not a coincidence, that's a direct consequence.

14:04Because the way Ukraine kept Kursk area under its control, it's basically by not allowing

14:10Russian forces to come close to the line of contact, because in this case we could make

14:16sure that Russians couldn't basically create striking groups which would be able to harm

14:24Ukrainian positions in Kursk.

14:27So essentially this is a similar doctrine like a NATO interdiction doctrine, basically

14:33keeping the enemy away and not allowing it to approach.

14:36For that you need ideal intelligence in real time, and clearly that's not coming right

14:42now.

14:43So I guess the situation is worse because of this.

14:46Question.

14:48Can we afford to be encircled?

14:49No, absolutely we cannot.

14:51It's not worth it.

14:52And our commander is clearly watching this.

14:55We just had recently an announcement of our commander-in-chief that at the moment he doesn't

15:00see the encirclement as a real risk.

15:03But I'm sure that if he will see the real risk, I mean, they will be considering withdrawal.

15:07Andrei, thank you very much for joining us here in France 24.

15:10We appreciate your time and we appreciate your frank response to our questions.

15:15Andrei Zagorodnyuk, former Defence Minister of Ukraine, advisor to the government of Vladimir

15:19Zelensky, chairman of the Defence Centre and distinguished fellow at the Atlantic Council.

15:23Thank you, sir, for your time.

15:25Do take care of yourself over there in Ukraine.

15:28And thank you for joining us here on France 24.

15:30Thanks also to our international affairs.

Category

Transcript

Be the first to comment

Recommended