- 2 years ago
For civil rights activists like Amanda Nguyen and Kelley Robinson, the road to a more equal future can be long and difficult. Two things crucial for getting there, they said in conversation with CNN anchor Abby Philip at Wednesday’s TIME100 Summit, are joy and math.
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00:00 Good evening to you. I'm so thrilled to be joined on the stage by two incredible
00:04 activists in their own right. I'll start with Amanda Nguyen who
00:08 is a civil rights activist and also an astronaut.
00:12 She's an astronaut but the world got to know Amanda because of her
00:17 incredible activism as a survivor herself, her activism on behalf of sexual
00:22 assault survivors as well. We are also joined on the stage by
00:26 Kelly Robinson. She is the president of the Human Rights Campaign,
00:30 which I know you all know, and that organization's advocacy on
00:36 behalf of LGBTQ+ individuals here in the United States.
00:40 Great to be here. The theme of this panel is the art
00:44 of advocacy and it does feel like we are in
00:48 one of those moments where what advocacy is and what it looks like is changing.
00:55 So for each of you, can you tell me when you think about what you want your
01:00 personal advocacy to look like, what is the most important thing for
01:06 you? Well I have to say it's joy. I think joy
01:10 is the most radical form of rebellion and you know when I met you today, your
01:15 energy was so joyous, even from your outfit, you
01:18 know, but it was just radiating. I think in a world where so many people
01:22 are fighting and it is the fighting for the mere act
01:27 of existence, whatever it is that they are trying to be,
01:30 that to have that joy in what you do and in the end state, that to me is
01:36 my personal type of activism. Yes, I love that. And it totally resonates
01:42 with me, the joy pieces of it, and especially when you're talking about the
01:44 context of the art of advocacy, because so much of
01:48 it is just an art, figuring out how you get to change in the midst of the
01:51 context that you find yourself living within.
01:53 But the other part of it is math, right? Like how do you get to 50 plus 1? How do
01:57 you get to the majority of people understanding that the position that
02:00 you're on is actually the one that's going to carry our nation
02:03 forward? And to me, I think joy is a critical component of it, but the other
02:07 piece that I think about is imagination, right? Like you are a
02:11 genre-busting person right up here right now, right? Like you've got
02:14 imagination and creativity for what building movement can look like.
02:18 When I think about Beyonce, right, from country music to house movement, she
02:21 shows us range and genre-busting, and I think that
02:24 we have to figure out in every step of our advocacy work,
02:27 how do we bring the type of creativity into the space
02:31 that meets people where they are, meets people in the spaces and places where
02:34 they find joy, and then uses that as a core point to
02:38 kind of build the sort of revolution that we need. Because
02:41 at the end of the day, I feel like what my work is all about is making sure that
02:44 every lesbian, gay, bi, queer, and trans person in this
02:47 country can feel the same joy that they do at a Beyonce concert
02:51 in every space in their lives. So how do we do that? We have to have an
02:55 imagination for what change and structural reform looks like to get
02:58 there. So Kelly, I want to stick with you for a second because
03:01 you are working and operating in a space on, I think,
03:05 one of the most controversial issues of our time right now, which is bizarre
03:10 to say considering that, you know, there was a time
03:15 when being gay was illegal in this country.
03:18 Things have been worse, but it feels like the hand-to-hand combat,
03:23 especially when it comes to transgender people,
03:26 is as intense as ever right now. So when you are in an advocacy space, and
03:32 it's not just about raising awareness, it's not just about
03:36 saying we are human too, but also combating
03:38 active efforts to attack trans people, what does that look like?
03:44 Yeah, and I have to say, so I spent the last 13 years of my career working at
03:48 Planned Parenthood Federation of America, fighting for reproductive rights and
03:52 abortion access in this country, and then, oh thank you, yeah.
03:56 So in other words, you've been doing this
04:00 for a while now, you're not new to this. I'm true to this, okay.
04:03 But with that, I also came to understand that these are not controversial issues.
04:08 When we talk about bodily autonomy, when we talk about getting to love the
04:11 person that you choose, those are not things that are actually agitational in
04:14 our context, our environment. What's happening is that we've got a
04:18 political landscape that's trying to draw wedges between us.
04:21 And I think one of the most transformative things about the LGBTQ+
04:24 movement is how far we've been able to move,
04:27 where most people believe that gay, trans, and queer people should be in
04:30 this country, right? If you look 25 years ago, you've got the
04:34 Defense of Marriage Act being the law, the land that basically bans same-sex
04:38 marriage. And now, you've got the Respect for Marriage
04:41 Act as the law of the land that codifies it into law.
04:43 And not only that, you have a president, Joe Biden, in office who
04:46 both voted for the Defense of Marriage Act and signed the Respect for Marriage
04:50 Act into law. So when I think about the power of this
04:52 movement, it's a power to actually shift hearts and minds, but also laws and
04:57 policies in a relatively short time frame.
04:59 So when I come to kind of the fight that we're in right now, particularly what it
05:02 means to advocate and center trans and non-binary folks and folks
05:06 of color in this fight, it's about understanding that what's
05:09 happening to us is not new. The same things they're saying about trans
05:12 people today, they said about gay and lesbian people 20 years ago, and now
05:16 the laws have changed. The same things they're saying about trans
05:19 people today, they said about people living with HIV and AIDS, and now
05:23 we're within arm's reach of ending the epidemic. I mean, the same things they
05:26 said about trans people today, they said about black women 100 years
05:29 ago, and now you got me and you sitting at the time 100, okay?
05:34 There you go. We can do this together.
05:37 So what does mobilizing real - we just got out of an AI conversation - what does
05:42 mobilizing real people look like in 2024? Because, you know, everybody
05:47 right now is a keyboard warrior, but some of this
05:51 stuff requires real conversations, face-to-face
05:56 activities, real work. You know, in your work on sexual
06:00 assault, the importance of showing up physically
06:04 in a space and changing hearts and minds. What does that look like?
06:08 You know, I remember the first time that I
06:12 tried to talk to politicians, and I stuck to statistics.
06:16 You know, I didn't want to reveal that I was raped,
06:19 and these people - this will date me, but they wouldn't look up from their
06:24 blackberries.
06:26 She's actually incredibly young, just for the record.
06:32 But then I realized, you know what, actually I will stand
06:35 in my truth, and I will tell them about what happened to me.
06:39 And yeah, their faces looked up from the blackberries.
06:42 You know, I think that the reason why we were able to pass our bill unanimously,
06:47 and 84 laws bipartisan after that across the U.S. - This is the Sexual Assault
06:51 Survivors Rights Act, which is the law of the land,
06:54 in large part because of her. - Thank you.
07:00 You know, it is because we were not afraid to stand in
07:03 our authentic truth. When the Massachusetts bill
07:08 was up for a vote, I actually, the night before, got a call and they said, "Hey, the
07:11 Speaker's not going to bring it up. I'm so sorry. Your right's going to die." And it
07:14 was other survivors that told me, "Amanda,
07:16 stand outside the floor of the House and let each and every one of those
07:21 representatives have to confront your face as they walk out."
07:24 And that day when I flew to Massachusetts,
07:28 even our lead sponsor said, "Hey, like, we're so sorry." You know, and then maybe
07:31 next legislative cycle. And for 12 hours that day, we went door
07:35 to door. We did that grassroots organizing, and I
07:39 asked people to call in. I saw the phone ring in the Speaker's
07:43 office, and at the end of the day, the Speaker brought it up for a vote,
07:46 and it passed unanimously. So it takes that relentless grit, but it
07:51 does pay off. - What about, what's your take on that? Yeah.
07:56 I mean, we were talking in the back that when you
08:01 you listen to panels on AI, it feels like the opening scenes of Jurassic Park
08:04 sometimes. We're like, "Oh gosh, what's going to happen?"
08:07 But when we think about advocacy and technology, it has allowed us to make
08:12 our movements bigger and more expansive and also more intersectional than we
08:16 could have ever imagined before. You know, I think about, you know, the
08:19 queer kid that's growing up in Missouri, like I came up, and them knowing that
08:24 they are not alone because they can connect with people outside of their
08:26 space is transformative. The fears on the other side are also real,
08:30 the bullying and harassment that takes place online, but that single point
08:34 of what could be possible if you don't feel so alone because of the power of
08:38 social media is profound. And I think what we try to do, and I'm
08:42 taking credit for us together. - Oh yes, absolutely.
08:45 - But I think what part of organizing and advocacy tries to do
08:48 is to, one, make sure that we're bringing as many people to the table as possible
08:52 and telling the whole experience around our issues, right? Not just one type of
08:56 queer person, not just one type of trans person, but folks that are low-income,
09:00 folks that have disabilities, folks that are folks of color, like telling the
09:04 whole story. It allows us to do that. And then the second piece is about
09:08 making the world actually smaller and having one-on-one connections and
09:11 relationships with people. And as powerful as the internet is, it
09:15 sometimes gives us tools to really expand the message and create humanity
09:19 for folks at scale. We often have to be intimately focused on what it looks
09:24 like to do storytelling. There is nothing more powerful than someone
09:28 telling their personal story about why they care about this issue or why they
09:32 are just as human as someone else. So we still have to do that work, and
09:36 often, especially in a world where there's misinformation and
09:38 disinformation abounding, it's got to be done face-to-face and
09:42 person-in-person. - Yeah. And sometimes people need to be
09:47 reminded of that. You can't just throw up a rainbow flag and call it a day.
09:52 Not every day is going to be, that's going to be enough. I do wonder,
09:56 Amanda, we were talking about this a little bit too,
10:00 I think as a journalist, I'm a student of history,
10:05 if you're an activist, you ought to be too. I wonder what
10:08 you draw on as you go about your advocacy today. When you look
10:14 at the successful civil rights work on a whole host of issues, what are the key
10:21 things that you take away that you think still work right now? And if you want, I
10:26 don't want to limit you because I do think that there's
10:28 there's room here for critique, right? I'm going to ask both of you the same
10:32 question. Are there things that we need to let go
10:36 of? You guys as advocates, we as a nation,
10:41 in those past movements that maybe the future movement needs to look a
10:47 little bit different, but I'll start with you, Amanda.
10:49 Yeah, I think that's an important question. You know, when I think about
10:53 stop Asian hate, which a large part of my activism
10:56 is in, it is true that if Black Lives Matter didn't happen,
11:01 stop Asian hate wouldn't happen. And we have built this tradition of
11:08 people taking their painful living truths and channeling that into justice.
11:11 So my activism is just joining that tradition.
11:15 You know, I and my work and my team's work, it's built
11:19 off of, honestly, centuries of people who have been fighting for this.
11:24 And in terms of what I would like to see as growth within the
11:29 activism community, I think that so many people face
11:34 burnout because their campaigns may be so difficult
11:38 because sometimes there's a lack of a very clear call to action.
11:42 I think that's been very helpful for our activism to be
11:46 narrow in scope, pass this bill, and hopefully that will help other
11:51 activists in shaping their calls to action.
11:53 I just want to pause on that for a second because I think that's a really
11:57 interesting and important observation. I'm curious, Kelly, what you think about
12:01 that. Sometimes when in activist
12:06 communities, there's a desire to think as big as possible and to have as
12:13 expansive a goal as possible. But I'm kind of hearing you say, maybe
12:17 have those goals but have discrete action moments and that is more effective.
12:23 Everybody can be an activist in their own term. For us,
12:26 what has really helped combat that burnout is by having,
12:30 honestly, campaign seasons. A fixed time where people come in with a very
12:34 clear objective knowing that by the end of these several
12:37 months, we've either passed this in the legislative cycle
12:40 or we're going to have to start again and they can choose to leave or
12:43 rejoin the campaign. I think a lot of people are so passionate about their
12:46 issues but sometimes they end up leaving the
12:49 cause entirely because they're burnt out. Kelly? Yeah. Oh man, I have so many
12:56 thoughts on that. I mean, I do think it's a both/and, right?
12:59 Like you have to have big inspiring goals that make you feel
13:02 afraid, that make you feel inspired because if not, you just have a little
13:05 to-do list that you should go about and do.
13:07 And I think what we need to do in movement work is have both a long vision
13:11 and be able to lay out the concrete steps that we are going to take to
13:15 actually make progress. And I do think that sometimes as movement leaders,
13:19 we kind of romanticize movements and talk about the struggle of it all
13:22 but if you're not putting any wins on the board, you need to go back and
13:26 reevaluate your strategy because this is not a social club, it's
13:29 not for fun, it's about getting to freedom and liberation for
13:32 every person without exception. And one of the lessons I really take from
13:37 my study of movements is that we can't get tired so easily. You know,
13:42 when you think about the Montgomery bus boycott,
13:44 I mean, people tell the story of it but you got to remember it was 381
13:50 days that they spent on that bus boycott. 381 days of people coming together to
13:55 figure out how they're going to get to work, how they're going to get their
13:58 kids to school, of trying to hold together a coalition where I guarantee
14:01 somebody said, "My feet hurt today and I want to get on that bus," right?
14:04 And we have to be thinking about what it looks like to actually sustain
14:07 a movement through tough periods because we know that there's a path to
14:11 actually get to victories. And I think we have to talk about the sides of it
14:15 that aren't as romantic more often. That, you know, when you think about,
14:19 I just watched the movie Rustin and, you know, it's so inspiring but
14:22 one of the biggest things I take away other than like you can make a movie
14:26 about organizing a march and it's actually really good, which is cool,
14:28 but one of the other things I take away is that people were not always
14:33 on the same page yet they came together around shared goals that they could
14:37 accomplish together because it would allow the movement to advance forward.
14:41 What does that look like for us in this moment to be together in
14:45 principled struggle but still take steps forward? That's the only way we
14:49 get towards progress and change. Yeah, I mean, not only were people often
14:54 not on the same page but sometimes they were doing different things but
14:59 when you really look back at some of these movements, they do feed on each
15:03 other. And I mean, that's the benefit of hindsight but in the moment it
15:07 may not have seemed that way as well. We're almost done. I just want to,
15:12 I want to, I like ending on a hopeful note. So we started with Joy.
15:17 What are you most hopeful about in 2024 when it comes? Well, can I just say
15:23 one thing? I almost forgot to mention this. She's going to space, y'all. So
15:28 there's that. I don't know. It is top secret. I don't know when it's
15:34 happening. She can't tell us. But other than that, what are you hopeful for
15:38 in this year? Gosh, it's empathy. Actually, when astronauts go into space
15:43 for the first time, many of them experience what's called the overview
15:46 effect. It's kind of an existential crisis but essentially it's them seeing
15:52 this pale blue dot, you know, everything that's ever lived on this orbital
15:56 spaceship Earth. And they leave as technical people but they return to
16:01 Earth as activists. Now I'm already an activist but I'm really looking
16:06 forward to that overview effect and the empathy. Amazing. I'm excited about
16:12 you going to space. I'm also just really, my community, I can't lie, the
16:17 LGBTQ+ community is in a state of crisis, a state of emergency right now.
16:21 And I think the one thing that gives me hope is that it's often been in
16:24 these moments of crisis where movements are actually able to take leaps
16:28 forward that previously seemed impossible, right? And I've traveled the
16:32 country particularly talking to queer and trans youth, particularly trans
16:35 youth in the South, and seeing people talk about them and their lives for
16:39 the first time in ways that acknowledges their existence and their
16:42 humanity has been transformative. And I wonder if we know how much progress
16:47 we've made in our movement in the last two decades and we know the moment
16:50 that we're in now, what possibility could this crisis moment actually
16:54 yield so that they know, not just, you know, when they see me come to visit
16:58 them, but everywhere they go, everywhere in the world, that they are
17:01 loved, that they are safe, and that there's a community that's going to
17:04 surround them and care just like we would to any of our kids. And that to
17:07 me gives me hope because there is something that's coming on the other
17:10 side of the crisis.
17:12 There's something on the other side. Thank you both very much, Amanda
17:15 Nguyen, Kelly Robinson.
17:17 Thank you.
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