- 2 years ago
Hungarian foreign minister Péter Szijjártó talks to CGTN about:
Shock at Emmanuel Macron's proposal to send troops to Ukraine (10:04)
Support for Germany's refusal to supply long range missiles to Kyiv (14:01)
Possibilities for a ceasefire in Gaza (00:30)
His country's position on UNRWA (7:51)
He was speaking to CGTN's Xu Dezhi on March 4th.
Shock at Emmanuel Macron's proposal to send troops to Ukraine (10:04)
Support for Germany's refusal to supply long range missiles to Kyiv (14:01)
Possibilities for a ceasefire in Gaza (00:30)
His country's position on UNRWA (7:51)
He was speaking to CGTN's Xu Dezhi on March 4th.
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NewsTranscript
00:00 Minister, first, thank you very much for taking your time and accepting our interviews again.
00:06 Thanks a lot.
00:07 Okay, so obviously you came here for Gaza situation, and we know it's a very dire situation.
00:12 As a strong supporter for Israel, how much possibility do you see a ceasefire could strike
00:19 between Hamas and Israel in exchange of ceasefire and releasing the hostages before Ramadan?
00:27 Well, obviously as we are approaching to the start of the holy month, this chance is becoming
00:35 slimmer and slimmer as we have less and less time to go.
00:40 Although I do agree with those who would say that it would be important to reach a kind
00:46 of rational agreement between the start of the holy month, because in the upcoming weeks
00:53 we will be faced with the risk that the tensions are not only going to be raising in the Gaza
00:59 Strip or at the Lebanese border, but they might raise in the West Bank or at the holy
01:06 places of Jerusalem, holy sites of Jerusalem.
01:09 So we should somehow avoid that.
01:12 And I do hope that the efforts, global efforts, led by the Qatari and Egyptian friends of
01:19 ours might be successful until the start of the holy month.
01:24 But we have to be aware and realistic, rational, that the less time is left there, the slimmer
01:31 the chance for that will be.
01:33 So what do you feel of the suffering of Gazan people?
01:37 Well, you know, I think there are four very important aspects which should be taken into
01:43 consideration.
01:44 This is at least how we Hungarians see that.
01:47 First, that we have to make sure that such a terrorist attack which was committed against
01:55 Israel on 7th of October will never be repeated in the world, never ever, nowhere, not at
02:02 any point of time and against anyone.
02:05 This is extremely important.
02:06 So therefore I think that the anti-terror operations in the region must be successful.
02:13 Because if the terrorist organization feel that they can win over the civilized world,
02:22 then it will put another impact on the global threat of terror with which we have been confronted
02:30 by unfortunately in the recent years.
02:32 Second, that the escalation of this conflict must be somehow avoided.
02:38 Because if this conflict escalates only just to one additional country, then it will not
02:44 be stoppable.
02:46 And we all know that in case it is escalated to one another country, it will become very
02:53 easily a regional war.
02:55 And once a regional war breaks out in the Middle East, we don't even want to think about
03:01 the possible consequences on global security.
03:04 Third, we argue in favor of the hostages to be released as soon as possible without any
03:16 conditions.
03:18 We still do have a Hungarian citizen who hopefully is still alive and we hope and pray for him
03:25 being released soon.
03:28 And fourth, we have to make sure that the civilian population is being protected.
03:33 Because it should not happen that the civilian population is being punished for the crimes
03:44 committed not by them but by the terrorist organizations.
03:48 And the fact is that the crimes have been committed by terrorists and not by the civilians.
03:54 Do you think those civilians, they were protected in the past few months?
03:58 Well, look, therefore I think it's very important that the humanitarian deliveries must reach
04:04 them.
04:05 So we think it's absolutely unacceptable that the humanitarian deliveries are being either
04:10 stopped or taken advantage by the terrorists.
04:13 And look, I think it's really, it's a covered way of behaving or behavior on behalf of the
04:20 terrorist organizations, not only by Hamas but all others who usually tend to use civilian
04:26 people as a humanitarian shield basically.
04:30 And it's so unacceptable and covered behavior that the terrorist organizations locate their
04:36 facilities under schools or hospitals because they put a huge risk and a huge danger at
04:46 the civilian population and this should not be made.
04:49 So speaking of humanitarian delivery, we know one of the biggest organizations in the UN
04:54 is UNRWA, which played an important role in Gaza or anywhere else with the Pashtun refugees.
05:01 Many countries, many donor countries, they stopped their funding because of the incident,
05:06 obviously.
05:07 In your opinion, how should those countries resume their funding to UNRWA?
05:14 Well, it's a really, really complicated question.
05:19 If it was not complicated, we would not speak about it because it would have been already
05:23 resolved, right?
05:24 So it's interesting that even in the European Union, the debates about the future way of
05:33 operation of UNRWA, the debates about the developments in Gaza are much more tensious
05:42 and bringing forward much more emotions than all the debates about the war in Ukraine,
05:48 for example, which is really interesting to me because I would not have thought that this
05:52 would be the situation.
05:54 But this is it.
05:55 So what I can tell you is the following.
05:58 We should not represent an extremist position in either way.
06:05 We have to make clear that the operation of UNRWA is really important because the operation
06:10 of UNRWA has helped many people who are living as refugees to get back their human dignity,
06:20 to work, and to have the hope that things might turn better in the future.
06:26 But in the meantime, it's absolutely unacceptable that a UN organisation or UN agency gets in
06:33 any kind of overlap, let's put it this way, not to use the word cooperation, with a terrorist
06:40 organisation.
06:41 So I think it's just one important issue that if the accusations turn out to be right,
06:51 then all those who have been suspected must be punished and they must bear the consequences
06:57 and of course they should be sent away from UN operations as far as it is just possible.
07:04 But in the meantime, we have to raise the question whether the structure of the operation
07:08 of UNRWA was the appropriate one or not.
07:13 Was it able to protect the integrity and the credibility of the agency and its activities
07:22 or it could not because of this or that or that lack or problem or structural failures.
07:30 So I think there are two important duties here.
07:32 To find out to what extent the accusations were right and on the other hand to have an
07:39 overview about the structure of this operation.
07:42 So very short two follow-ups.
07:45 First one, so Hungary is against dismantling UNRWA?
07:51 Once again, we are against putting the humanitarian necessities into brackets when it comes to
07:58 the region but on the other hand I can't tell you until the completion of such investigation
08:07 whether UNRWA is the right framework for that or not.
08:11 But the activity, the operation, helping refugees in the region, helping them to work, helping
08:17 them to live, helping them to be educated, this is extremely important.
08:22 But we have to make it very clear and very sure that it is UN and not a terrorist organization
08:29 which has the impact or the influence on such an operation.
08:32 So my second follow-up, do you think, because the UN said they yet to receive any written
08:38 materials or evidence from Israeli government who accused the 12 UNRWA staff, do you think
08:46 Israeli government should offer those evidence as soon as possible in order to give the investigation?
08:52 Well I mean, yeah, sorry, yeah, sorry.
08:54 I mean it would definitely help the investigation to go through as soon as possible and it would
09:00 help us to think about the best possible way of UNRWA operation in the future.
09:10 So it would definitely be helpful.
09:12 On the other hand, I would not think that the Israelis would, you know, just put out
09:20 baseless accusations in such a serious issue.
09:24 So I have no reason to challenge what the Israelis have been putting forward, but I
09:30 mean evidences would be really important from the perspective of the outcome and the quick
09:36 completion of this investigation which definitely has to be made.
09:40 Now let's move to the other war you just mentioned which is, you feel surprised they are not
09:45 as much in tensions as the Gaza situation which is Ukraine.
09:51 French President Macron recently said, and I quote, "Nothing should be ruled out" when
09:57 talking about deploying maybe NATO troops there.
10:02 What is the position for Hungary on this?
10:05 Well first of all I have to tell you that we were really shocked by this statement.
10:09 We were really shocked because of two reasons.
10:12 First that we are living in the direct neighborhood of the war.
10:18 So from Paris which is more than 1,000 kilometers away from Budapest, it might look differently,
10:27 but in Hungary we have been confronted with the consequences of this war in the last more
10:34 than two years.
10:35 So we have received more than a million refugees, we have been carrying out the largest humanitarian
10:41 operation in the history of our country ever.
10:44 There are around 1,600 schools and kindergartens in Hungary where Ukrainian kids and students
10:49 are being enrolled.
10:51 So we do understand that the longer this war will take, the more people will die and the
11:00 more destruction will take place.
11:02 And we also do understand that in this war Ukraine cannot win over Russia.
11:08 It's so obvious.
11:09 I mean those who continue to say that the battlefield developments will be improved
11:24 from the perspective of Ukraine, they're failed.
11:26 It's false.
11:27 It's not the case.
11:28 But in the meantime I do believe that with all these weapon deliveries which have been
11:32 provided to Ukraine, Russia cannot win over this whole Western coalition either.
11:39 So this war will end up in negotiations.
11:44 And if this is the case, that the war is going to be completed or ended by negotiations,
11:51 then the question is only when.
11:53 And there are two options, sooner or later.
11:56 And the sooner the negotiations would take place, the less people would die and the less
12:00 destruction would take place.
12:03 But the later the negotiations would be started, the more people would die and the more destruction
12:09 would take place.
12:10 So therefore we say that if there are going to be negotiations by any case at the end,
12:18 then why not sooner than later?
12:20 So this is first.
12:21 The second problem or the shock, or the second reason why this statement has shocked us was
12:26 that there has been a NATO decision in force.
12:30 NATO has made a decision right after the outbreak of the war saying that NATO is not party to
12:37 the conflict and we have to make our best efforts in order to avoid any kind of direct
12:45 confrontation between the Russian Federation and NATO itself.
12:49 Now what President Macron has said means a clear violation of this common decision of
12:56 ours in NATO which has been made unanimously and it has not been on the agenda of any NATO
13:03 format to change or to amend or rethink or overview or review this common decision of
13:12 ours.
13:13 So based on the existing NATO decisions, based on these decisions which have been made unanimously
13:21 and based on our everyday experience in the neighbourhood of the war, this statement was
13:26 totally unacceptable.
13:28 And Hungary, a country which has never delivered weapons to Ukraine, will not deliver weapons
13:35 and will not send any kind of troops to this war, that's absolutely sure.
13:40 So a couple of days ago there was another leakage of the audio dialogues of the German
13:45 officials talking about sending Taurus missiles and a possible strike on the Crimea bridge,
13:52 which just like you said is also another, what the Russians said, involvement of NATO
13:58 in the Ukrainian conflict.
14:00 What is your reaction?
14:01 Well, in this case I think it is much more important what the Chancellor says, Chancellor
14:07 of Germany I mean, because whether this leakage is true or not, those are not the real decision
14:17 makers who are supposed to be on this leakage, supposed to be heard on this leakage, because
14:23 the decision is being made by the elected leaders of the country.
14:27 And the German Chancellor proved to be a very responsible person in this regard, because
14:31 he has made it clear that these Taurus rockets will not be delivered by Germany to Ukraine.
14:39 And I hope it will stay like this, because this helps the escalation to be avoided.
14:48 All deliveries of additional weapons, especially if the delivery takes place in a different
14:55 dimension, which Taurus would definitely represent, they come with the threat or the risk of escalation.
15:02 So we do hope that the Chancellor will have enough power to continue to behave responsibly
15:09 in this regard.
15:10 And I think it is much, much more important what the Chancellor says and what the Chancellor
15:16 decides than what is on any kind of leakage.
15:19 So with all those things, do you feel like after two years there is a real risk of escalation
15:23 in Ukraine?
15:24 Well, what I can tell you is that every day spent in war brings forward another threat,
15:32 another risk of escalation.
15:34 That's obvious, because when there are so many weapons on both sides, so many emotions
15:42 on both sides, just one mistake, one misunderstood statement can create a big problem.
15:53 So let me change the topic to China.
15:56 Last year China's GDP growth was 5.2%.
16:01 What do you see of this number?
16:02 Well, that's great news.
16:05 And not because of the Chinese, but because of the Hungarians for sure.
16:08 Not only because of the Chinese, but because of Hungarians as well.
16:11 Because China became our second most significant import source, and China is becoming the number
16:23 one investor in the recent years in Hungary as well.
16:28 And the Chinese investors play a more and more important role in our national economy.
16:34 They have contributed big time to keep the economy growing in Hungary, and they contributed
16:41 big time to the development of our automotive industry, which is definitely the backbone
16:49 of our national economy.
16:51 And funnily enough, one of the major reasons for these Chinese companies to invest in Hungary
16:58 is the presence of the German companies in Hungary.
17:01 So we are happy to see that the German and the Chinese industries are working together
17:06 so tight, and we are even happier that this tight cooperation takes place in Hungary to
17:14 the benefit of the Hungarians.
17:16 But do you think, some experts said it's a zero-sum game, if Chinese EV, the electronic
17:22 vehicles, took the market, that will hurt the German EV?
17:28 I don't agree with that.
17:30 I don't agree with that for two reasons.
17:32 First of all, we do believe in the importance of one united global economy.
17:39 And this one united global economy is being based on competition.
17:43 And we do believe competition is a good thing, because competition encourages you to perform
17:47 better and better.
17:50 So we should not divide the world into blocks again, because if the world is being divided
17:56 into blocks again, that's very bad news for countries like Hungary.
18:00 And the second reason why I don't think it would be a zero-sum game, because I see that
18:06 the success of the transformation strategy of the German automotive companies, which
18:14 again represent the backbone of the European economy as well, depends a lot on Chinese
18:20 companies.
18:22 Because these big German automotive companies have a lot of Chinese suppliers, who supply
18:30 really critical equipments and applications to the German cars.
18:34 Just to give you an example, the reason why two huge electric battery factories are now
18:39 being built in Hungary by Chinese companies is that they supply the biggest German automotive
18:46 companies in and through Hungary.
18:48 So what I see is that it's not a zero-sum game, but an interdependence, and it's good.
18:55 So it is the interest of the Chinese companies to be able to supply the Germans, and this
18:59 is the Germans' interest to be supplied by the Chinese.
19:02 So it's so simple.
19:03 Minister, I know I asked you this question before, but I still have to ask you again.
19:09 What is your expectation now for the Chinese economy, given the pressure still there?
19:15 And how would you expect the Chinese and China and Hungary cooperation economy?
19:23 The rise of the Eastern economies has started a long time ago, but it has been very visible
19:32 and spectacular for the last 15 years for sure.
19:35 That was the reason why we have launched our strategy called Eastern Opening back in 2010,
19:42 because we understood that the Eastern companies, among them the Chinese, will become stronger
19:46 and stronger, will pick up to the Western ones regarding financial background for sure,
19:54 regarding technology for sure, and when it comes to human resources, you were always
19:58 ahead of us.
20:00 You had a much bigger population and so on and so forth.
20:04 So what we think is that you should not try to stop a development for the stopping of
20:12 which you don't have any hope.
20:14 And on top of that, you should not stop developments if it does not make sense to stop them.
20:21 So therefore, we do look at the Hungarian-Chinese economic cooperation as a very, very important
20:27 pillar of our economic growth.
20:30 And our economic cooperation has always been based on mutual respect.
20:36 So I always tell my colleagues that I don't know their experience, but our experience,
20:41 or at least my personal experience has been for the last 14 years, that our Chinese counterparts
20:49 have never put pressure on us to confuse political things with economic things.
20:54 So this is a purely rational cooperation, which I am hopeful will be continued in the
21:02 future as well.
21:03 And a rapidly growing Chinese economy, I think is good news for the global market, but political
21:10 approach should be avoided.
21:12 So here we should look at these developments only through rational angle, through common
21:18 sense and should not let those take over who are approaching this issue in an ideological
21:25 way.
21:26 Because this is not a matter of ideology, this is a matter of rationality, reality and
21:29 economy.
21:30 Minister, thank you very much for your time.
21:33 I appreciate it.
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