00:00 Leila Simone Talani is director of the Center for Italian Politics at King's College.
00:04 They're the author of The International Political Economy, a Migration in the Globalization
00:09 Era.
00:10 Thank you for speaking with us here on France 24.
00:14 This story is not going away for the time being.
00:21 The Italian press has been combing over Gérald Darmanin's personality and the fact that he
00:28 was on his watch, that there was trouble at the Champions League final.
00:33 And now this spat with Italy.
00:37 What's your reaction?
00:38 Well, the reaction is this is clearly one of those fights that the right-wing government
00:45 has to maintain their position vis-Ã -vis migration.
00:49 So if you're a sovereign party, that's in particular in favor of national sovereignty,
00:55 is not keen on admitting that there is a problem with migration.
01:00 I think this is what is happening.
01:02 And so they will never give up because they think the problem, I mean, they're trying
01:05 to cover the existence of a problem, according to me.
01:09 Are you surprised that Emmanuel Macron's government has an interior minister that engages in this
01:16 kind of rhetoric?
01:17 Well, this is a pretty normal thing that has always happened.
01:21 I think also Macron doesn't have a particularly open border policy with respect to migration.
01:28 So if both countries want to keep migrants away, this is exactly what will be happening.
01:35 At one point in the interview, that clip we heard, Darmanin calls Giorgio Meloni a friend
01:44 of Madame Le Pen.
01:48 Can you fact check that for us, please?
01:50 I think this is a correct statement.
01:52 I think they are friends.
01:54 They come from exactly the same political sides.
01:57 They've been friends before.
01:58 They never denied it.
02:00 So obviously they have a very good relationship.
02:03 So I think it's correct what he says.
02:05 But they're not in the same parliamentary, vying to be in the same parliamentary bloc
02:11 at the European Parliament.
02:13 Le Pen closer to Matteo Salvini.
02:15 Yes, but they still are very similar.
02:19 I would actually say that maybe Miss Meloni is closer to Le Pen than to Salvini from many
02:24 points of view.
02:25 And definitely it's on the right-wing spectrum of the political arena.
02:31 So they have many things in common.
02:33 And definitely their position towards migration is very, very similar.
02:36 So they're pretty much against any form of migration, particularly if it is migration
02:40 from the Middle East, so Islamic migration.
02:44 Is this all going to blow over?
02:45 This trip that had been planned by the foreign minister was in preparation for Meloni to
02:51 come to Paris.
02:52 From what I've heard, at the moment it's not going.
02:56 But they are considering any statement by the French authorities, and they are trying
03:02 to find a way to limit the damage, I would say.
03:07 So if there are enough statements of excuses on the side of the French, they will finally
03:13 then settle the issue and possibly reestablish the relationship as before.
03:19 Because good relationship between France and Italy are absolutely necessary, both for Italy
03:23 and for France.
03:25 And so I do think that this crisis will be over.
03:29 But for the moment they are keeping the hard line, in particular to show that Italy is
03:34 a nation.
03:35 So this whole rhetoric about being a nation, proud of itself, and not abiding to any understanding
03:42 of another nation.
03:43 So I think it will, for the moment, it's like this, but they will consider any kind of excuses
03:50 coming from France enough, or apologies coming from France enough to stop the crisis.
03:57 All right.
03:58 No excuse yet from the interior minister himself.
04:01 Leila Simone Tallani, many thanks.
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