- 14 hours ago
It's been 30 years since Naomi Wolf penned the thenâand stillâelectrifying feminist handbook The Beauty Myth, a game-changing bestseller that cemented her status as a third-wave feminist and cultural critic. Today, Naomi is focusing her work and voice on ushering in a new generation of feminists and activists with her latest endeavor, DailyClout, a site designed to excite digitally engaged democracy.
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00:01Welcome to Unstyled. I'm your host, Christine Barbrick, co-founder and global editor-in-chief
00:06of Refinery29. Each week, I invite a notable person to come in and talk with us as we explore
00:12the funny, inspiring, sometimes heartbreaking tales of life, work, and love, as told through
00:19the things that we wear. It's been nearly 30 years since Naomi Wolf first published her pivotal book,
00:31The Beauty Myth, a venerable work of journalistic analysis and cultural criticism that sent shock
00:38waves through the modern world. She was just 28 when it hit shelves. And the way we think about
00:43women's looks and their relationship to women's power in society has never been the same.
00:49Though our conception of beauty has changed a lot over the last quarter century,
00:53Wolf's thesis, that we punish women who aspire to power by raising the beauty standard bar to
00:59unreachable heights, is as relevant today as it ever was. Of course, Wolf herself has changed a lot
01:05since holding up the magnifying glass to the way we perceive a pretty face. The beauty myth solidified
01:11her place in the pantheon of professional feminists, and she led the third wave through the 90s as a
01:16thought leader, writer, and activist. When she joined Al Gore's campaign in 2000, for one hot
01:23minute, it looked like Wolf might end up in the White House. It didn't come to pass, but Wolf kept
01:29on, demanding better from democracy and society at large. And in the years since her debut, she's
01:35written seven more books, the subject of which range from positions on porn and sexuality to politics and
01:41civic life. But even though it's clear that the written word is Wolf's most powerful weapon,
01:46as well as the place where she's cultivated her voice as a feminist, cultural commentator,
01:51and an outspoken mother and mentor, she's also turned her attention to online activation.
01:57Her two-year-old website, Daily Cloud, is a place where people can go to learn more about digitally
02:02engaged democracy, starting with what that actually means, driving disruption and real grassroots change.
02:09So the beauty myth was just the beginning. Having raised two young feminists of her own,
02:14while also teaching an entire generation of young women the need to bravely question and challenge
02:20what drives the status quo, Naomi Wolf keeps reminding us to never, ever accept anything at face value.
02:34Naomi Wolf, it is such an honor to have you on Unstyled. Thank you so much for being here today.
02:39I'm so excited. I'm a little nervous too.
02:41Oh, well, please don't be nervous. I'm really honored to have been asked.
02:45Refinery29 is one of the sites that I really admire most, especially because of the way it talks
02:52to young women.
02:52I really appreciate that. Considering the fact that you've written many books,
02:57but the relevance of the beauty myth that you wrote in 1991, tell me about how that book came to
03:01be.
03:02You know, I was very fortunate because I was very young. I wrote that book when I was in graduate
03:06school. It was the right book for the moment. I think that a lot of young women and older women
03:13were ready for a new discussion about feminism. You know, during the 80s, before the book came out,
03:19we'd been told over and over, it's done. It's over. No one's interested in feminism. It's dead.
03:24It was so ironic because the 70s had been this huge decade of victories for second wave feminism.
03:30And of course, you know, the culture wants that to go away when you've got patriarchy.
03:35So I came of age as a college student hearing, it's dead, it's dead, it's over. At the same time,
03:40I saw all around me in college. I went to Yale, which I've written about. It was in some ways
03:45a very
03:46corrupt place in terms of gender. I was sexually harassed, for instance, by a professor, and I've
03:51written about it. And it was totally, they had 20 years of covering up sexual assault at Yale. It's
03:56still very bad. But anyway, you know, I was in this like, very privileged educational environment
04:02with the most fortunate young people in America. And I saw young women around me suffering. And they
04:10were suffering from things like what I just described. They were also suffering from sexual
04:16assault at, you know, parties in secret societies. And they were suffering from not being taken
04:22seriously in the workplace as soon as they got out or during their summer internships, no matter how
04:27brilliant they were, but they were really suffering about their bodies and about how they were allowed
04:32to feel about their bodies. And specifically, the eating disorders on campus were out of control. And
04:40they still are, the numbers are exactly the same. About a third of women on college campuses have
04:44anorexia or bulimia or an exercise disorder. And probably a larger percentage have generally
04:51obsessive or disordered eating and exercise patterns. But I had a close friend who was severely
04:58anorexic. And I had been anorexic when I was 13 for a short period of time. And it was just
05:04so clear to
05:05me that no matter how much privilege, and access and empowerment my generation had at that time, we were
05:11not going to be empowered if we were enslaved to this ideal of beauty that was so set up to
05:18make us fail.
05:19And specifically, how thin the ideal was at that time, especially, you really did have to kind of starve
05:25yourself to fit it. So I'd been studying the 19th century. And I saw this pattern in history of
05:34backlashes that every time women moved forward, there was a pushback from society. And I, I saw that
05:41that had happened in the 50s as well in the 20th century, when there was this big push forward of
05:46women going to work during World War Two. And then when the men came home, it was the feminine mystique,
05:52be a housewife, you have your house has to be spotless, you have to dust in an apron and high
05:57heels. And I just looked around so uncomfortable, right? I thought this is clearly a backlash. Like
06:03this ideal is not about beauty. This is about something else. It's political.
06:06I think there's so much of what you talked about in the beauty myth that still tracks to today. And
06:12I
06:12think obviously, given the political climate, and all of the discussions we're having around all sorts
06:16of equality, but I think that more specifically for this conversation, really around women,
06:20what do you think are some of the new beauty myths?
06:23That's a great question. So I have a 22 year old daughter and her generation,
06:27they definitely struggle with a lot of this stuff. But do you think it's amplified because of social
06:32media and just sort of the constant reflection and projection of image all the time?
06:37Absolutely. I think it's mirrored with social media and also with pornography, which we,
06:41you know, haven't.
06:42Which you've also written a lot about.
06:43But having said that, those things cut deeper, but I really see young women today, a lot of them,
06:51I would say, even the majority, believing that they have the right to call themselves beautiful.
06:57They may not always live up to that ideal they set for themselves every day. But I do see women
07:04carrying themselves differently. I do. I do see more diversity. I see, you know, people trying to be
07:10empowering and validating to their women friends, you know, in not having to fit themselves into such
07:15a rigid mold. I see moms trying not always perfectly to give their daughters the message
07:22that, you know, the way they are is beautiful. And, you know, I definitely see that, and this is very
07:27related, that young women have created and absorbed a message that they're entitled to their own
07:33sexuality and sexual pleasure. And these things are so closely linked. And if you actually,
07:39I mean, I don't like the word objectification, when it's used in a very reductive way, because
07:45feminism sometimes forgets that we are bodies, you know, and that beauty is a thing, like beauty
07:50as aesthetics is a thing, like, there's nothing wrong. And the end of the book, I tried to
07:54communicate this, there's nothing wrong with wanting to adorn yourself or wanting to seduce,
07:59or enjoying, you know, feeling gorgeous, whatever that means to you. Children have that sense that
08:07they're delicious, and lovable and admirable. So I'm all for it, you know, I, but I do see a lot
08:15of progress in young women, at least knowing that there are lies out there that the media tells and
08:22that they have a choice about not believing them. And definitely saying I want to own my sexuality,
08:26I want to feel good about myself.
08:41You know, with a 22 year old daughter, and also now you've, you've recently launched a digital
08:45media company, which we're going to talk about later. But what do you think the impact with
08:49social media on these kinds of themes in women's lives? Do you think that it's problematic? What
08:55do you think the opportunities are? I mean, I think it could be a force that really enslaves
08:59women. Like when I first realized that women were posing naked for followers on Instagram,
09:04I really thought, wow, this is like kind of troubling, because any young woman will have
09:09this temptation or this expectation that she should show her body and get, you know, that validation
09:14of more and more followers. I didn't think you could. I thought you could shut down if you showed,
09:16if you... No nipples. But you know what I mean, like lots of butts and whatever. I mean,
09:20it's like, it's not the... Just exposing yourself. Yeah. And, and you do see,
09:25and I hear this from mothers of teenage girls, you know, the sort of horror when they see their
09:29daughter's social media, and it's like highly, highly sexualized in this very
09:33porny male gaze kind of way. And obviously, that's not great. I don't love it. And I do think the
09:38constant photographing can make, you know, young women who have a tendency, and the new science shows
09:44some, some young women have a biological vulnerability to eating disorders that certainly
09:49can make it worse. That's just kind of the amplification of the mirror. Like if women
09:53are going to be obsessed, they had mirrors, and plenty of them were obsessed before there was
10:00nonstop social media. I mean, not that they're not both real, right? They're both really real,
10:04these pressures. But I really do see the internet as radically, radically liberating to young women,
10:11radically liberating because, and I always think of the Arab Spring, because what a lot of people
10:17don't know is that young Egyptian women who are tech savvy, they might have been in very conservative
10:25households, but they had their smartphones, you know, they were able to lead that revolution online.
10:31And technology lets women in those contexts code, you know, long distance or mobilize campaigns,
10:38you know, from behind their smartphone in their room. It's just access, access, and also the way
10:45you mobilize people digitally is comfortable for women's sense of leadership. You know, a lot of
10:50young women, I had a young women's leadership nonprofit for 10 years, and they're uncomfortable
10:54from every background going up in front of a crowd and standing up on a podium and saying,
10:59follow me. But online, if it's about, you know, lassoing your networks and your friends to
11:05make some kind of change that you believe in, you know, the technology is very comfortable for
11:10young women to show leadership in that way.
11:12Seeing examples of it in front of you is actually such a motivating thing to actually see young
11:17women, you know, and see yourself in those women.
11:19Absolutely. And there's, I mean, we are in this kind of renaissance moment for feminism. We really
11:23are with young women. This generation, I mean, I've lived through this now for like almost 25 years,
11:28you know, there's these waves, and they fall back, and then feminism is bad word.
11:32And there's a suddenly critical mass of like your readers, 20 to 28 year olds, if you were to do
11:38a
11:38poll, and maybe you have saying, do you call yourself a feminist, you would get much stronger
11:42positives to that question than any generation since the 70s, I'm certain, maybe more than the
11:4770s. And their definition of feminism is cooler than it was in the 70s, I believe. And I think,
11:53you know, we worked really hard to allow that to happen. So yes, I do think that, you know,
11:58they're the daughters of feminists, a lot of them, and they've grown up and gone to college with,
12:02you know, Women's Studies 101. And they know about sexual assault, and they know about the gender
12:06gap. And they know about, you know, how hard it is to have work family balance. And I think they're
12:11sick of putting up with gender nonsense. So yes, I think that the internet lets women show leadership
12:18digitally. And I do see a new wave also. And you saw this with Occupy as well a few years
12:22ago.
12:22Yeah. And now with all kinds of movements for trans rights and Black Lives Matter,
12:27women leaders are out front there. Absolutely.
12:30I think that that was a big motivation for Emily's List starting was really just to
12:33actually mobilize around getting women more interested in running for public office,
12:39because so many of them require so many times to go out and ask them to or convince them that
12:45they are qualified to run for a specific office. Oh, yeah. Whereas I think if you ask,
12:49I think the difference between like, for every woman, they had to ask, I don't know,
12:52six or seven times, but for every man, it was like, the first time, sure, I'll run.
12:56Even if I don't have any political experience. Why do you think there is a gap, though? I mean,
13:00what do you think we need to do in terms of translating that identification, that sort of
13:05ownership of feminist ideals, and really translating that to real action? This is a really nice segue also
13:11to your website as well. Right. I mean, that is the critical question, because, you know,
13:17shouting at the TV screen, you can be as enlightened as you want. And as it is satisfying,
13:22though, it's satisfying, but it's it's not going to make, you know, lasting change. I mean, you know,
13:27just mass mobilization, and real political tools, has ever made any real lasting change. And we're at
13:34a time when we really need to make lasting change. So I came to the conclusion, which is kind of
13:39bittersweet for a writer of books, that books are not the way, and that we need to build new tools
13:44to
13:44help people engage digitally and really make a difference. I was a political consultant on
13:50women's issues for informally for President Clinton's team and formally for Vice President
13:57Gore. And I saw how difficult it was for people to engage with the process effectively. It's not that
14:07people didn't care. It's that many structures have been set up to keep the process of exclude people.
14:14Exactly right. And so I started a company, I co founded a company with a very distinguished
14:21former CEO of Cliff Bars, a woman entrepreneur, Lisa Thomas, and it's called Daily Cloud. And so
14:26what we did and do is we create digital tools to let, you know, women like your readers create real
14:32massive social change from their smartphones or from their desktops. So, for example, it was very hard
14:39for people to do anything about the bills being passed in Congress or in their state house,
14:44right? They might care a lot, I'm sure your readers do, about green zoning or solar climate change or
14:51reproductive rights or trans issues, you know, racial justice, immigration, you know, animal cruelty,
14:59so many things that young women care about passionately, who are your readers and are readers as well.
15:04And they couldn't change legislation, you don't even know what's in a bill, if you happen to get an
15:12email from an advocacy group, that you send a note or call your representative, you don't know if
15:17you're one person or one person of millions, it's ridiculously ineffective. And even petitions are not
15:23effective, they are not. So we created tools that are really effective where you we created like a Google
15:28for bills, where it's called Billcam. And you can go to Billcam slash dailycloud.io and look at it and
15:36use it. It's free right now. And you just type in any issue that you care about, and you'll get
15:41your
15:42list of live bills. And then you can take a bill that you that matters to you, you can click
15:47on it,
15:47get a snippet of code, you pop that into the back end of your blog or news article, and it
15:51pops up the
15:52live bill. And you can vote on it, you can share it through social media, you can post it to
15:57Facebook,
15:58you can tweet the bill sponsor, you can tweet your representative, and it aggregates actions as it
16:04goes through social media. So as you can imagine, this takes the opacity in the smoke filled room
16:11out of the process. And it's you know, the bill is going live through social media, and people are
16:15going, Oh, my God, look at that paragraph that defunds Planned Parenthood. So we've had 14 elected
16:20officials respond, the response time is down to like 15 minutes after someone tweets a Billcam article,
16:25people are freaking out so much that what they are trying to pass in secret is out there being
16:30tweeted by our 21 year old writer, Haley Snyder, she got you know, who outed someone who's going to
16:36defund Planned Parenthood. And it was buried in a bill with a completely different name. He was
16:40tweeting angrily at her this member of Congress within 20 minutes after she posted her article.
16:45That's incredible. I think we've been brainwashed, like the people who really don't want ongoing daily
16:52participation in the political process, which is the, you know, the elites who control like,
16:57what's happening. They really want us to be zoned out on edibles and watching the Kardashians all day
17:03long, every day, they really don't want us to be paying attention to are able to engage with the
17:07process. And so when I'm saying gently that let's rethink the idea that all we're expected to do is
17:15show up and vote. And that's why I love the tools that we're creating. And, you know, kind of
17:19platform that you're creating, because it really should be an everyday fun kind of thing. And sort of the
17:26example I want to give you is, we've been brainwashed into believing that these bills are arcane, no one can
17:32understand them, they're super boring. So why would you even care? So I've taken 12 brilliant, diverse
17:38millennials, mostly women, but we have some guys, and train them to read the bills. And then they turn what's
17:43in the
17:43bill into plain English that a 16 year old can understand. And they're also making infographics.
17:48Can you give us an example?
17:50Memes. Sure. Oh, my God. Anjali and Bhavani Pitti, who are two sophomores, actually, they just started
17:57junior year at NYU. They're twins. They did an infographic about where marijuana is legal, where
18:04it isn't legal, and bills that are pending to make it legal. And that got 40,000 post reach on
18:10Facebook.
18:10And they also did a blog explaining a roundup of what's in these marijuana bills at a glance. Oh,
18:17but there are things they're really passionate about. Animal rights, they're vegans, they really
18:21care about animal rights. So they did a couple of blogs about bills to make it illegal to videotape
18:27animal cruelty. That's legal?
18:30Well, it's going to be if this bill passes. But you know, and then why? What would be the purpose
18:34of that? It protects agribusiness from people outing brutal slaughterhouse practices or, you know,
18:42terrible treatment of animals. And they found this other amazing bill, it's incredible, where there was
18:49a legislator who wanted to put an exhibit about abortion next to an exhibit about slavery in the
18:55Indiana Historical Museum. And that bill was, you know, getting traction. And these girls are 20,
19:00young women are 20. And they, you know, they outed this guy, they put the bill cam of his bill
19:05in
19:06a blog, and they posted it. And he tweeted back at them. This is a whole separate guy tweeting
19:12angry.
19:13He was exposed.
19:13Yes. And I'm not saying we're there to-
19:15Such a covert operation. It's so crazy.
19:17We're not there to annoy legislators. Like there are things we love. I mean, we're nonpartisan. So
19:22we're not supposed to love or hate things unless we call it opinion. But another great example is
19:26Carolyn Maloney has some fantastic legislation. She's starting a women's museum, a bill to get
19:33a women's museum on the mall in Washington. So we did a blog post about it, video infographics. And
19:39again, it's video of like 20 year olds, 21 year olds sitting around talking in an informed way about
19:44the bill and why it matters, you know, to them. And we had 950,000 Facebook reach in May. So
19:50that was
19:51a high point. But it's great. Thank you.
19:53Those milestones when you're launching a company are so huge.
19:56Thank you. But more satisfyingly to me, it proved the point that millennials and everyone
20:04are very willing to engage if you just explain it in English and make it fun and accessible.
20:11People think it takes millions and millions. And with these kinds of targeted tools, it really
20:14doesn't. You can stop a bill or push a bill with hundreds.
20:29I think that there is sort of this feeling of inertia sometimes after like the march or after
20:33these big events that bring everybody around. And, you know, we're all sharing really important
20:38information and listening to different kinds of speakers. But then it's like, what's next? And I think
20:42we're all looking for that way of keeping everyone engaged and actually making sure that there is
20:49real impact at work.
20:50What I'd love to see is much more of a marriage between people's favorite sites where they gather
20:59to get like shopping tips or lifestyle information, more of a marriage of those sites with showcasing
21:08issue of the week, bill of the week, and then offering people the tools to do it.
21:12And I'd like to see more collaborations than products are offered in real time. For instance,
21:17when you were talking about young women and how there's really not a massive effort of any kind
21:22that I'm aware of to really mobilize young women. But young women have those top 10 websites that they
21:27love. And what if those top 10 websites, you know, created a kit that every college fresh woman gets
21:33that has the basics, she needs to be politically active. And then those top 10 websites, either in
21:39competition or collaboration, had a feature every week of, you know, the women's issue of the week,
21:44the women's political story of the week, the cause you want to support this week, and then gave that
21:49woman those digital tools to do it, and gave that woman an alert for how she could get together with
21:55other like minded young women in her community around that thing. So it's like a perfect circle of
22:00activism, but it's fun, like the critical thing that feminism has forgotten, cool, fun action that
22:08makes people feel actually empowered. And I think it's addictive, because when you make activism fun,
22:14and then you feed that action into the media, and have a place in the media where you can continue
22:21that
22:21conversation, and then bring it back into real life. It's just addictive, you know, because you're
22:27you're learning something. I mean, like, like, this sounds dumb, but I've just discovered recipes
22:31on Pinterest, and I'm a terrible cook. But you know, I'm doing vegan stuff on Pinterest, and it tastes
22:37good. And I can't believe it. And so now I cannot tear myself away from Pinterest, and making these
22:42weird vegan recipes. And I feel so empowered, you know, that I've learned something basic, right. And if
22:49there was a way to create these kind of kits and places and cross branded locations where people were
22:56learning new skills and making new friends and, you know, documenting, you know, what they did.
23:01And here's how we stopped, you know, here's how we ended the last 18 miles of rail trail at Albany,
23:06I think it would be absolutely addictive.
23:08I agree with you. Yeah, it's really like in everyone's hands at this point, or it should be,
23:12and it should be. And I think that we do have to find ways that it does feel really gratifying
23:19that
23:19you see the fruits of your labor. Exactly.
23:22Obviously, moving into 2018 is going to be a huge year, just in terms of midterm elections.
23:28What do you think is just the best advice for young women about how to really, like,
23:32make the most of their voices as we move into 2018, and really try to see some even more momentum
23:38and change when it comes to sort of reclaiming our power?
23:42Right. That is a great question. I mean, I really do love freedom of assembly, and it's threatened
23:48right now. And I love freedom of speech. So and that's threatened right now, unfortunately,
23:53from the left, you know, the whole rise in political correctness on campus, I think,
23:57is very dangerous, even though it's coming out of good motives.
24:00Yeah. So I think the most important thing is to cause trouble, you know, peaceful trouble,
24:07make some noise, make some noise, exactly. If there's an issue that you care about,
24:11find that advocacy group, work for them, raise money for them, have a party in your house to
24:16support them and get active on Refinery29 and on Daily Cloud to find other people who feel as you do
24:23and make a revolution. Amen to that. Naomi Wolf, it's been such a thrill and an honor to have you
24:29on
24:29Unstyled. Thank you so much for making the time to be here. And congratulations on Daily Cloud.
24:33Thank you. It's an absolute honor and delight for me as well. Thank you so much. Congratulations on
24:38Refinery29. Thank you.
24:44I hope you're inspired after hearing Naomi's story. For even more Unstyled extras, check out
24:50Refinery29 or my Instagram at Christine Barbrick. You can also join the conversation using the hashtag
24:56Unstyled across your social media. And of course, we'd be infinitely grateful if you'd please
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25:12newsletter delivered straight to your inbox every week. Our show today was executive produced by Sarah
25:17Bernard, associate produced by Rebecca Easley, and edited by Priscilla Mena. Copy support was provided by
25:24Elizabeth Kiefer. Our theme music today is by the artist Koff, and we recorded Unstyled with Paul
25:30Ruist at Argo Studios. We'll see you back here next Monday with Refinery29's very own entertainment
25:36writer Cecily Bowen on the art of turning your voice into a dream job.