- 2 days ago
On this episode of Battle Cry, host Gaurav Sawant discusses India's missile modernisation and conventional deterrence against regional adversaries with Lieutenant General PR Shankar, Sandeep Unnithan, and Manjeet Singh Negi. The panel analyses the combat performance of the BrahMos supersonic cruise missile, the development of BrahMos NG and BrahMos-II, and the imperative for indigenous military production lines. Addressing border dynamics along the Line of Actual Control, the experts evaluate strategic shifts, the necessity of a dedicated drone, rocket, artillery, and missile force, and lessons from modern conflicts in Ukraine and West Asia. Emphasising national defence readiness, Lieutenant General PR Shankar highlights: 'The alternative to air power is missile power. The alternative to air power is rocket and drone and artillery power.' The discussion also focuses on closing force structure voids, establishing robust command and control kill chains, and securing critical maritime choke points through ground-based standoff strike capabilities.
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00:00Let me bring into this conversation, Lieutenant General P.R. Shankar, former Director General of Artillery,
00:06someone who's worked very closely on the BrahMos Supersonic Cruise Missile Project
00:11and was at IIT Madras working on New Age technology in warfare.
00:18Also with me are two senior journalists, Sandeep Unnithan and Manjeet Singh Negi.
00:23Welcome, gentlemen.
00:24Sandeep, the BrahMos played a stellar role during Operation Sindhur
00:28and now BrahMos NG will give the Air Force longer reach, more lethality
00:34and a lighter missile, Sandeep, will ensure that fighter jets can have more than just one missile
00:41like currently one BrahMos on a Sukhoi-30.
00:45Absolutely, Gaurav, the BrahMos missile came of age during Operation Sindhur
00:51and all of the investments that we had made in this technology over two decades
00:55finally came to fruition during Operation Sindhur.
00:58It is a missile that was simply unstoppable.
01:01All the targets that it acquired were hit, destroyed.
01:04And it left Pakistan literally, you know, scrambling for international partners
01:10and conflict termination, which is why they made that phone call on the 10th of May.
01:15This is a missile system that they had no answer for.
01:18It shattered through all of their Chinese-supplied ground-based air defenses.
01:24And the new iterations of the missile, Gaurav, they have been in the works for some time.
01:29But if they come in the next two or three years, as Dr. Jaitir Joshi told us in India today,
01:35the fact that you have the BrahMos NG, which is lighter,
01:38which means that a Sukhoi-30 can carry three missiles instead of one.
01:44And you're looking at a BrahMos, two, which can go to a range of over 1,500 kilometers.
01:48That is more than three times the striking distance of the current generation of BrahMos missiles.
01:56So, Manjeet Negi's exclusive Gaurav is something that could make the Pakistanis
02:02across the border very worried indeed.
02:04Oh, absolutely. In fact, not just Pakistanis, should China also be concerned?
02:10Because as of now, there is nothing that anyone in the world has
02:13that can stop a supersonic cruise missile coming virtually three times the speed of sound.
02:17But, Manjeet, what are you picking up on?
02:20How soon will the new BrahMos and the total indigenization,
02:25what is the timeline for the total indigenization of the BrahMos missile?
02:35What is the requirement for the BrahMos missile?
02:37The BrahMos missile, which is the requirement of the forces and the export of the BrahMos,
02:42if you look at the BrahMos, you can see the plan of the BrahMos and the Lakhnau,
02:47the three assembly lines have set up.
02:49So, this shows the requirement of which the requirement is increased,
02:52which was the requirement of the BrahMos, which is the requirement of which the BrahMos
03:14has been increased.
03:15Thank you very much.
03:45Thank you very much.
04:15It could escalate and God forbid we could have another galvan type situation.
04:19What is your reading of what DGITBP said?
04:23Look, at the outset, thanks a lot for calling me on the show.
04:26Now, I'd like to highlight that what the DGITBP has said.
04:33He said about a situation which has been ongoing for almost four to five months now.
04:38I don't think it's so serious, because if the situation was so serious, it should have
04:43come through the army sources.
04:45The DGITBP has mentioned it, right?
04:49Well, he's highlighted it, that there's a face-off ongoing, and such face-offs keep
04:55ongoing throughout the entire border, at some place or the other.
04:59Maybe at that particular place which he mentioned, it's a little more, and I don't think we
05:04should be worried about it.
05:05The fact that we are there is itself okay.
05:09But will it escalate tomorrow into something like galvan?
05:11Who knows?
05:12We don't know how the geopolitical situation will deteriorate, and the India-China situation
05:17will deteriorate.
05:18But personally, if you ask me, that's it.
05:21I don't think anything will happen.
05:23I don't think China is in a state to get into any kind of a fracas along the border at
05:29this
05:29point of time, especially from now to the next year.
05:33Why?
05:33I'll tell you why.
05:34Because from next week onwards is their important fifth plenum which is starting, and that is
05:41to set a whole lot of their leadership equations into place.
05:46And for the next year is their 21st party congress.
05:50And in this period, they won't like to pick up a fight with India.
05:54Let me be very clear about it.
05:56I don't think so, unless they have a different design.
05:59So to that extent, I'm not too worried about what's happening on the LAC.
06:03I'm sure if the ITBP can handle it, the army can definitely handle it.
06:09Let me bring in Manjit.
06:10Manjit, Raksha Mantrali, what are you talking about Arunachal Pradesh's state?
06:13What are you talking about in the future of the U.S.
06:20स्थिती तनाफपूर्ण है या स्थिती वाब बनी हुई है फ्रिक्षन की और
06:24कन्वेंशनल सेंस की अगर बात करें तो चाइना की शक्ती हम मारे पास जादा है
06:27हमको और ड्रोन्स की आवशकता वैसे भी है इरान युद को देखते हुए
06:50my dear कि आजितिहों की बॉन्डरी को मामला नेकर इस नहीं की घृटनाइ रहती है कि उनकों लेगर जो ग्राउंड
07:02फॉर्सब्स
07:02जो कि दौनों देशों की बीच में कई सालों से विवाद का विशयर रहा है चिए्वा को छेदि Fahrenheit
07:25Thank you very much.
08:06Thank you very much.
08:20Looking at what's happening across the world, Russia, Ukraine, Israel, Iran, US and our neighborhood.
08:28Absolutely, Gaurav. You know, you've entered an era of non-contact kinetic warfare. And we've seen that during Operation Sindhur.
08:36We saw that during the 40-day conflict between Iran and the United States. Ukraine and Russia have been attacking
08:43each other over the last couple of months at extended ranges.
08:463,000 kilometers is the outer range of the Ukrainian drones that they're targeting the Russian Federation with. Russia is
08:53also striking back, Gaurav.
08:55If we are not cognizant of these technological changes in the world, then I'm afraid we are trying to fight
09:01the last war all over again.
09:33That the Indian Army has raised over the last couple of years. So, that expertise already exists. It's only a
09:38matter of scaling it up. You can call it whatever you like. But as long as you have the capability,
09:43it is a force that you can roll out very quickly.
09:46You know, so from Grad 21 to the Pinaka systems to longer range missiles and rockets, General Shankar, your reading
09:56of the requirement of more firepower and fire and forget kind of firepower, longer range, more lethality.
10:04As Sandeep was pointing out, future warfare, likely to be more non-contact warfare. So, precision missile, longer range, swarm
10:12drone to strike across enemy VAVPs, both across northern and western borders. Is that the requirement, sir?
10:19Yes, there is a clear requirement. And in fact, I have discussed this with Sandeep separately. That's the first point.
10:26The second point is, if you see the Russia-Ukraine war, attacks and, you know, non-contact attacks have been
10:34carried out over 1,000, 1,500 kilometers very effectively. And that is the way forward.
10:40And the fact that you need a force which can handle drones, rockets, artillery and missiles. And even artillery range
10:48is getting extended, the conventional artillery.
10:50Today, everyone talks of a DRAM force, drones, rocket, artillery and missile force. You need it. Do we have it?
10:59We have it. But just having these rockets and missiles, it's not the issue. You need a structure for it.
11:06You need a structure for command and control. You need a structure for deployment. You need a structure for sustainment
11:13and logistics.
11:14You also need a structure for ISR because you need to have a command and control system. You need to
11:20complete the kill chain. You know, you need a satellite communication. You need ground communication, ground and satellite observation, target
11:28fixation. All this you need.
11:30And interestingly, we don't need to invent the whole wheel. We have something called the artillery division, which has all
11:37this. And in fact, for me, it's quite surprising that we are still debating of the requirement of a force
11:44when we already have one.
11:45When you have one, okay, that might not exactly fit the bill, but 95% of the thing which we
11:53have already. And I can vouch it because I've commanded an artillery div. And I commanded an artillery div way
12:00back in 2010 to 2012, consisting of Pinaka's grad, extended grad and Brahmos and, you know, Smirch at that time
12:10with a troop of Herons. So, I know what I'm talking.
12:14So, do we have that entire kill chain, let's say, across our western border and across our northern borders along
12:22India, Tibet, LAC?
12:24We have the capability to put it on ground there. We have the structure. We already have three artillery divisions.
12:30You need to repurpose it for other places and expand the number of artillery divisions we have there without much
12:36of a sweat.
12:36Let me tell you this. Okay. It's only that India has to get over its own internal mental blocks to
12:44come to that level. That's the first thing.
12:46The second thing is the importance is just not having range and all this. The fact which Andeep, I think,
12:52also had brought out, that a number of squadrons are not going to increase.
12:57They're going to decrease. Your effectiveness is going to decrease. Now, what is the alternative to, you know, air power?
13:05The alternative to air power is missile power.
13:07The alternative to air power is rocket and drone and artillery power. There's no other choice we have.
13:14No, but that's a very important point you're making. But, Manjeet, Army or Air Force?
13:20Can I finish this?
13:21Yes, kindly. Okay. Yes, General Shankar.
13:24You have to understand that, look, why am I saying this? Just look at the Iran war. Iran doesn't have
13:30any air force worth mentioning.
13:32But with the help of rockets and drones only, they have brought a superpower to standstill.
13:39And same thing the Houthis are doing. Houthis also don't have any air force.
13:44Saudis have all the air forces, all the modern aircraft, but yet they have not been able to overpower Houthis.
13:51I think we should take lessons from both these and ensure that our rocket force, you know, really comes to
14:01shape and build on what you have rather than reinvent the whole wheel.
14:33Very interesting point you make, sir.
14:54Thank you very much.
15:33Thank you very much.
15:48This is Mahathapur Baat, and Sandeep, the paucity of a fifth generation fighter jet coming into our system and the
15:57time lag, this drone force, it can play a very critical role.
16:01When we talk about a missile force and a drone force, how geared up is the Indian domestic drone manufacturing
16:08ecosystem, you know, from propulsion to firepower to guidance system, to have non-Chinese components and to be able to
16:17do what Ukraine and Iran have been able to do?
16:20Well, Gaurav, you know, the Indian military has ordered drones on a record level. I mean, you're talking of potential
16:29orders worth $10 to $15 billion over the next couple of years.
16:33Now, these are a lot of drones there for reconnaissance, there for, you know, loitering munitions, all of that. This
16:40is based on the lessons from Operation Sindur.
16:44But now what is happening is that every force, Gaurav, is buying drones, you know, in their own silos. There
16:51is no standardization of protocols. There is no, you know, the production line that will produce them at scale of
17:01the kind that we are seeing in the United States, in Iran, all over the world, and the Russian Federation.
17:06That kind of standardization isn't happening. We're not producing them at scale. What we're doing is, we're, you know, acquiring
17:12them in small penny packets, and, you know, we're looking at situations that happened a couple of years back when
17:19the same three services went to the same Israeli company, and they were buying the same drones, often with different
17:25frequencies.
17:26So there are multiple issues there of interoperability, of creating that kill chain that General Shankar was mentioning. There are
17:33a lot of loopholes even now. What we're looking at is a mass buying of drones, with not enough thought
17:39given to creating that entire kill chain, creating that sensory loop, standardizing a lot of protocols, ensuring that there is
17:47some kind of an air traffic control when drones go up, when there's fighting.
17:52You know, you know, we saw during Operation Sindhu, where one core commander told me that at one point, he
17:57had three, four thousand, you know, drones up in the air, and they had no idea about whose drone was
18:02flying where.
18:03So all of these things have to be done, Gaurav. The easiest thing to do is to place the orders.
18:08The tougher part is to actually put in that whole process, that command and controls.
18:12And especially at a time, Sandeep, and General Shankar, I want to bring you in, at a time when the
18:18technology is still evolving, would standardization be possible when technology continues to evolve?
18:24Or do we now need to go in with a Mark 1, Mark 2 kind of a system? You know,
18:29like the Shahid drones and Russians were able to put the jet engine, and America kind of reverse engineered that.
18:37Is that the kind of technology that we need to just keep modernizing, keep, so that we are ahead of
18:42the curve? Where do you think we stand right now?
18:45Look, let me tell you, having worked in this field after retirement, and I've spent 10 years in IIT doing
18:50only this, Propulsion, we are completely indigenous, we have everything we need, even for most of the things, we have
18:57everything.
18:58You need to put all these in a mission mode, and ensure that you get everything.
19:03The problem today is we are trying to procure, we are not trying to invent, we are not trying to
19:08design our own stuff.
19:10So, you have to have faith in your own system. Unfortunately, here, our DRDO has failed us in all our
19:19efforts for the past 15, 20 years.
19:21So, it's time now for us to get away from the beaten track, and put our faith in startups, put
19:28our faith in our IITs, who have these capabilities, and do things on a mission mode.
19:33Please understand, the IGMDP, which was put on a mission mode, so 30, 40 years back in the 80s, has
19:40borne fruit for us today in the form of the plethora of missiles which you have.
19:44There is no technology which we don't have. It is what we lack is the capability of putting it into
19:50a mission mode.
19:51And for this, you know, we just have all the three services have to sit together with the Defense Ministry
19:57and work it out.
19:59So, I think that's the way forward. One more point I want to make, which is very important.
20:04It's okay to say that we want to fire all these missiles across our borders and all that.
20:08But there's a new form of warfare which has come out. I call it the choke point warfare, sea denial
20:13and all that.
20:14See what's happened in Strait of Hormuz. See what's happened in the Red Sea.
20:18That's being controlled not by fighters and all. It's being controlled by drones, rockets, artillery and missiles.
20:24Even in our context, where you're going to put everything in Galatia Bay and all that, or this kind of
20:31missiles, long-range missiles like Brahmos and all that,
20:34you can control the entire Malakka Strait and all the sloths and the thing.
20:39That's a very important point you make, sir. Very, very important point.
20:43And that is why, you know, that Galatia Bay, India has to put more fighter jets, more missiles, more Navy,
20:51more weapons and systems there.
20:5330 seconds, General Shankar, to complete your point, sir. 30 seconds.
20:56See, the point is that, look, you are constrained by the fact that you don't have enough aircraft.
21:01You, and ships don't come overnight.
21:03But what can come overnight or within, at very fast pace is ground-based rockets and missiles and artillery and
21:12drones.
21:13And that is something which you can go ahead of the curve.
21:16And that puts you ahead of the curve.
21:19It has, as you very rightly pointed out, with the integrated missile technology program, you know, the Agni, Prithvi, Akash,
21:26Nag, Trishul,
21:27and the other missiles that we now have, that's a very, very significant point you're making.
21:32And perhaps the government will focus more on drones, rockets, missiles and artillery in mission mode,
21:39as General Shankar, Sandeep and Manjeet pointed out.
21:41To my guests, many thanks for joining me.
21:43That is all I have for you on this special edition of Battle Cry.
21:47Many thanks for watching.