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In this special episode of Battle Cry, Gaurav Sawant examines India's ambitious Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) programme after the Ministry of Defence issued an RFP for the RS 15,000-crore indigenous fifth-generation stealth fighter project.
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00:15hello and welcome to a special edition of battle cry i'm gaurav savant russian president vladimir
00:20putin's big offer to india on the fifth generation stealth fighter jet is our top focus story on
00:26this broadcast the russian president said and i quote we are ready to supply india with this
00:32aircraft to keep developing it we don't have any issues or limitations the same goes for air defense
00:40systems unquote russia has indicated its desire to further deepen defense ties saying there are no
00:47limits to cooperation between india and russia in the strategic security space russian president in
00:54an interview said russia was willing to jointly develop and produce the su-57 the su-57 the russian
01:01fifth generation stealth fighter jet that comes with enhanced stealth capabilities let me tell you
01:08a little more about the su-57s the su-57 is a russian twin engine stealth multi-role fifth generation
01:17fighter jet developed by su-57 the su-57 boasts of enhanced stealth features super maneuverability
01:26super cruise advanced avionics and a large payload capacity in fact it has been in service with the
01:35russian aerospace force since 2020 and the russians have an export variant called the su-57e so the su-57
01:44and any weapon platform is as good as its stealth features its maneuverability and of course its weapons
01:53on board so the su-57 armament includes a 130 mm auto cannon it has 12 hard points six internal
02:02and six external
02:04hard points they can carry a maximum payload of about 7500 kilograms of weapons then let me initially tell you
02:12about the internal base for stealth operations so air to air missiles r77m r74m2 and of course the r37ms
02:21air to surface missile strike capability the kh-38m the kh-59 mark ii and the kh-69 and of
02:29course the kh-31
02:30it also comes with anti-ship and anti-radiation missiles and guided bombs
02:37um the kab 250 uh five slash 500 the external weapon base for non-stealth missions have additional missiles and
02:46bombs including what is expected the hypersonic option the kinzal the kh-47 mark ii m2 in various configurations but
02:57the
02:58emphasis remains on internal weapons base because that gives it low observability on the radar
03:06it has a smaller radar cross section it can also track and engage multiple targets simultaneously
03:13but before i get you more on this big development let's listen in to the russian president vladimir putin
03:21yesterday you were meeting with some of the editors and you spoke about um su-57s and that's that it
03:28was an offer
03:28for a collaboration does that offer still stand what are the details and what's the conversation you're having with new
03:35delhi
03:42india india and we have very good long-standing relations in terms of military and technical cooperation interaction
03:51a significant portion of the armed forces of india are equipped with russian equipment with russian material this is a
04:00tradition that dates back to the soviet times and this tradition is kept alive
04:05i believe our relations with the india and friends are specific in that thanks to our mutual trust
04:19we concentrate not just on trade not just on buying and selling we're also concentrating on joint research and development
04:29one of the most
04:31the greatest uh the greatest uh the greatest uh the greatest uh the greatest uh examples as of the uh
04:35medium range uh missile bramos indian experts
04:39indian experts participated in the design of this missile from the very beginning and russian experts as well and the
04:45outcome was great
04:47india has traditionally been purchasing our aircraft uh both uh planes and uh helicopters from us su-57 is a
04:57very good uh aircraft probably
05:00the most modern one the most up-to-date in the world as of now and it is also the
05:05most efficient
05:07in the world as of now and it is also the most efficient in the world as of now and
05:08i said that uh
05:12to our indian friends yesterday we offered we should do that together well it didn't work out but we did
05:19it
05:19on our own and we stand ready to uh sell su-57 probably you know there are two pilot configurations
05:31and it could also serve as a command center so pushing ahead and we are very efficient not just in
05:40aviation but also
05:41in maritime equipment submarines and uh surface vessels
05:49now the fifth generation stealth fighter club is a very exclusive club it's an elite club of just three countries
05:56the united states china and russia india of course recently issued rfp or request for proposal for our very
06:03ambitious our indigenous amca or advanced medium combat aircraft india's indigenous fifth generation
06:11stealth fighter aircraft program internationally what's the scene china for example has two programs
06:18the chengdu j-20 what they call the mighty dragon and the shinyang j-35 or the j-35a
06:25china is also to arm pakistan with a couple of squadrons of its initial fifth generation fighter jets
06:32and this brings us to a big question would that give the pakistan air force a decisive edge over india
06:40the united states it too has two separate fifth generation fighter jet programs it has the f-22 raptors
06:49um the air superiority fighter and the f-35 lightning 2 that's a multi-role aircraft and it has multiple
06:56variants variant a b and c the russians have the su-57 which they've now offered to further modernize
07:05co-develop and improve with india new delhi and moscow incidentally they traveled some distance on this
07:12program before india pulled out as the russian president was just mentioning there were some
07:16differences but now the russian president's statement indicates russia's offer appears to address
07:22some of india's concerns which brings us to a question on battle cry what should india make of the russian
07:31offer
07:31should india look at the offer of two squadrons of su-57s as a stop cap arrangement especially
07:39when pakistan seems to be acquiring two squadrons of fifth generation stealth fighters from the chinese
07:46but there's another question will the su-57 program derail india's indigenous amca program will
07:53additional s-400 systems and the fourth system has just come in will additional s-400 systems with
07:59unmanned combat aerial vehicles be a more viable option to keep amca on track we have the most
08:07authoritative voices joining me on the special broadcast my privilege to welcome air marshal anil
08:15chopra former director general of center of air pass studies the air marshal also flew the mirage
08:23two thousand he brought the mirage's to india air marshal sanjeev kapoor former director general of
08:29inspections and flight safety of the indian air force sandeep unethan is senior journalist and
08:33analyst joining us on this broadcast gentlemen welcome air marshal chopra president putin's claim
08:39of no limits on cooperation and full technology sharing now consider russia's history of restricting
08:48certain sensitive technologies in the past deals including in mic 29s you'd recall and su-57s classified
08:56elements like the isr radar or the electronic warfare suite how verifiable and enforceable in your view
09:03would source code or mission systems access for india be
09:09goreff great to be on your show and i must mention that this is a golden deal that has been
09:15offered
09:16right now the russians are looking for more exports for their defense which have
09:21slowed down in the last four five years there is no better partner for them china has also started
09:29you know reducing their imports from russia because of their own industry for us a fifth generation
09:35aircraft india is very very crucial at this moment the pakistani pilots and technicians have already
09:42gone and trained in china the j-35 ae is going to be with them very shortly somebody is talking
09:50of
09:51end of this year or maybe early next year 40 of them is going to change the dynamics in south
09:56asia as
09:57well as the air dominance is concerned and therefore this deal is very important what what what is on
10:02offer is a stealth aircraft tried and tested already about 55 of them are flying in the russian air
10:10force we already were partners in this from 2010 to 2018 when we finally walked off we have a good
10:17knowledge of the systems on board and we know the quality of the platforms of course things have
10:23changed better radars better engines better stealth and now we have clarity and weapon load also as part
10:30of the package it has been sweetened by uh s 400s r37 m which will also go maybe on the
10:38su 30 mki especially
10:40after the upgrade so there is a sweet deal we have no other offer the american f-35 is not
10:47an offer
10:47and decision making has to be quick we already know that amka rfp has been issued but by the time
10:53the
10:54contract is given out it'll be early next year thereafter we have a rough idea of the timeline
11:00first time private industry is going to make this fighter daycraft it could take time this is a
11:06golden opportunity there is an urgency for us to take this decision i feel that we should go in for
11:13two to three squadrons we should not okay make it in india because amka program has to uh carry on
11:20it
11:20has to succeed it's up so you're saying by by two to three squadrons air marshall kapoor going by some
11:26reports in public domain the su 57 in the past has faced some criticism that the stealth is not
11:34complete it has a higher radar cross section apparently there's some delayed supercruise
11:40capable engines that's what is the criticism in public domain and i do not know if it's factual you
11:45can tell us better um combat validation requires a little more to be desired so does india's potential
11:53investment actually risk acquiring a 4.5 generation plus platform or is it genuinely a fifth generation
12:00aircraft especially as we wait for the indigenous amka sir good evening to you the fellow panelists and
12:08your viewers in my position i endorse what uh airmaster chopra just said because we are manufacturing our own
12:16fifth generation fighter and it's a very complex thing as you mentioned the pakistanis are likely to get
12:22uh who's caught by this year or early next year and our ambitious rollout plan is by 2035 uh 36
12:31that is
12:32another 10 years from now now these 10 years is a long period for us not having uh any of
12:38uh this
12:39cutting edge aircraft and you've seen this operation epic fury you saw the operation this took place
12:45and the operation rising line in june last year 300 to 400 aircraft packages are going into
12:51iranian territory led by f-22s and f-35s these are the platforms in any campaign and you know there's
13:00a scenario wherein in hotar we have you have j-20s which will engage indian uh air defense and fighters
13:07and from the western side you have j-35s entering and trying to take on our s-400s this is
13:13a very realistic
13:14kind of a scenario which may unfold in the next conflict are we prepared for this very alarming
13:21it's an alarming situation as you say so let me quickly bring in sandeep for his initial comment sandeep
13:27given this alarming situation that air marshal kapoor speaks of would two squadrons be enough for the
13:32indian air force at least initially so that there isn't a 10-year delay and if there is talk of
13:38co-development
13:39what would that mean for the atmanirbhar bharat and amca program well you know two squadrons are
13:47an absolute necessity for the indian air force given the fact that we have a huge a decade long
13:53delay before we get the amca now two squadrons of su-57 have been considered they've been spoken about
14:00by the indian air force but the fact is that god we must understand the su-57 is not a
14:05true fifth
14:06generation fighter aircraft of the kind the f-22 or the f-35 as our panelists have mentioned the fact
14:12is that they have not the russians for all their aerospace prowess have not been able to crack
14:17the fifth generation fighter aircraft engine which is uh you know an engine that flies uh without
14:24burning afterburners at it can super cruise without burning afterburners so that is an engine uh that
14:30they've still not managed to do it there is an engine in development but uh which they've announced last
14:35year but that's still not entered test phase yet now the fact is that the fgfa are the uh su
14:41-57 as
14:42it stands today gaurav is essentially a mark one of a fifth generation fighter aircraft it's not a true
14:48blue fighter aircraft uh of a fifth generation uh you think like say the f-35 or even the chinese
14:54uh
14:54fifth generation stealth aircraft but that's a very interesting point you make so air marshal chopra
14:59if that be the situation would we then be having the rafal's 4.5 generation the su-57 another 4
15:07.5
15:08generation plus um and india's own amca uh that at least the initial bits would be 4.5 generation plus
15:15the cost and if we were to specifically talk of the su-57 the cost and super maneuverability that may
15:22be a
15:23big uh tick mark in favor of the su-57 but what's your assessment of the overall survivability when
15:29we talk about a contested airspace the standoff missile use may be great but would this be a
15:35credible deterrent against adversaries like china if the engine isn't truly uh fifth generation stealth
15:42you know gaurav let me firstly agree with sandeep you know there is a possibility that the quality of
15:48stealth may not be the class of of the f-35 or f-22 same question is being asked about
15:54j-20 with
15:55the canard is it really having the kind of stealth that we are talking about but time will tell certainly
16:00indian air force will have to go and do some kind of a short evaluation on some of the questions
16:06that
16:06uh we are we are discussing here today but notwithstanding that you know we are going to have
16:12uh china already has 350 j-20 is the by 2030 they could be planning to have a thousand of
16:18them so
16:18there is a huge threat uh developing around us and therefore there is this urgency of buying whether
16:24it's 4.5 or five time only will tell indian air force i'm sure will assess this but there is
16:30you know
16:30another thing that's coming along with it is the s-70 octonic that is the m-u-m-t now
16:36m-u-m-t is uh
16:37we're going to bring in another dynamics where they already use this s-70 in uh in ukraine it has
16:44been
16:44a very very successful uh weapon it is uh so it is going to come with that package so therefore
16:50i think uh purely on stealth count you know i must tell you today that some people are asking us
16:56questions uh you know in the public domain that should we choose between the uh 257 and that of
17:03us no we need both because it is possible to tell you that if we want to hit 42 squadrons
17:09by 2040 we
17:10need to start acquiring both of them because they are they have different roles and stealth we certainly
17:17so therefore i think on this issue the armed forces the air force will send a test in to reconfirm
17:25the
17:25stealth part as well as the cruise supercruise is concerned the russians are saying it already exists
17:31whether the engines are stealthy enough that's another area that we need to perhaps check but
17:36certainly a new engine is coming up and which will be on offer in a year or so so i
17:41think that be on
17:43offer you know for joys on this for co-manufacturing in india uh with with the entire transfer of
17:50technology again remains that big issue but air marshal kapoor um india already operates this mixed fleet with
17:56uh russian aircraft with french aircraft with indigenous platforms so would introducing the
18:01su-57 um in this bouquet further complicate issues like maintenance or training and logistics and operations
18:10no not at all in fact uh you know in two ways one our anchor design will benefit a great
18:19deal once our own
18:21air crew and ground crew are operating this platform uh be it thermodynamics be it stealth
18:26be it ac radar be it sensor fusion be it supercruise all these things when the crew are operating will
18:34help us to refine our own product amca which we are making the indian air force has weapons which is
18:41the
18:41key part of these platforms which can straight away be integrated and as you just heard uh the russian
18:47president the source code and other things would be given to us so be it bravo integration so let me
18:53quickly should focus to the other big story air marshal and that is the fourth s-400 air defense
18:59system that's just reached india amidst a conversation around deployment along the western front
19:06post operation sindhu i want you to look at the s-400 system the s-400 air defense system during
19:11operation sindhu had played a stellar role not only in defending indian airspace but for the first time
19:17ever used in an offensive role shooting down a pakistan air force awnc advanced early warning
19:24command and control aircraft more than 300 kilometers inside pakistani territory the narendra modi government
19:30has decided to approve the acquisition of five additional s-400 squadrons which would eventually
19:35double india's planned inventory to 10 units now sources the government have also told india today
19:40that the first consignment of the fourth s-400 arrived in india on the third of june uh pre-dispatch
19:47inspection was completed in russia the newly inducted unit is to be deployed along india's western
19:53front now listening to prime minister narendra modi at the adampur a base sometime back when he spoke
19:59of india's work of india's work of india's work of india's epa during operation sindhu
20:04operation sindhu or operation sindhu or man power man power
20:09wife in india's work of india's work of india's work of india's work or ISPso
20:35India platform.
20:36Go in go as 400.
20:43Yeah, I think.
20:46Yeah, I think.
20:48Defense system.
20:51Yeah.
20:51Yeah.
20:56Yeah.
20:57Yeah.
20:57Yeah.
20:58Yeah.
21:00Yeah.
21:01Yeah.
21:02Yeah.
21:13Yeah.
21:15Yeah.
21:18Yeah.
21:19Yeah.
21:21Before I get you more on this story, let's also listen in to air chief marshal Amarpreet Singh,
21:27air chief marshal AP Singh gave details and he spoke with great pride about the superb achievement
21:33of the S 400 during Operation Sindhu, where six Pakistan Air Force jets were brought down
21:38by the S 400.
21:40Five fighter jets and one AWNC aircraft.
21:43Listen in.
21:43What fighter aircraft are from S 400.
21:46We have at least five fighters confirmed kills and one large aircraft, which could be either
21:53an Lint aircraft or an AWNC aircraft, which was taken on at a distance of about 300 kilometers.
21:59This is actually the largest ever recorded surface to air kill that we can talk about.
22:07And let me once again bring in our experts.
22:10Air Marshal Chopra, an air defense system that was used in an offensive role to bring down
22:14a park AWNC more than 300 kilometers inside Pakistani territory.
22:20What does this fourth system mean for India's air defense capabilities?
22:24You know, we require these five systems very quickly.
22:28You know, it's nearly in 2018 when we signed, we were supposed to get.
22:33But, you know, because of some payment issues, it got delayed because we bought a lot of oil
22:39from them in the last one or two years.
22:42But it doesn't matter.
22:42The fourth system has come.
22:44We already know the locations in the first three.
22:46It's in open domain.
22:47And one more system coming on the Western Front.
22:49And maybe the fifth one will go elsewhere to secure the country.
22:53You know, we are a continental safe country.
22:56Five systems, not good enough.
22:57We always wanted ten.
22:59But we knew that it will come in stages, because now we are trying to test the system in Ops
23:04Indoor and otherwise.
23:05So another ten, five will come, it will make it ten.
23:08Digital missiles have already been ordered, 10,000 crores worth.
23:11And now I must tell you that this is going to be subsequently supplemented with Indian DRDO
23:16system, which will be S-400 class Kusha, which is very close to its final readiness.
23:21We understand by next year this will be available.
23:24The first unit will be available to the force.
23:27So we are finally…
23:29Which brings me to the point, Air Marshal Kapoor, China also has the S-400 system.
23:33Does that neutralize our edge along the northern borders?
23:38The S-400s used by the Russians against Ukrainians didn't do that well as the S-400s we used
23:47against the Pakistanis in Ops Indoor.
23:49The issue is the integration and the merger with IACCH, which changed the game for us, in my
23:57appreciation.
23:58And like Prime Minister announced, the Sudarshan Chakra, and as Air Marshal Chopra said, these
24:03are too little.
24:04We need many of them, and of course our indigenous production is going to help us in a big way.
24:11Okay.
24:12The Su-57 project of 2018, which didn't materialize with Russia, for your views, was basically held
24:19up due to a lot of things they were not willing to give.
24:21Now their own president is saying that we are willing to give you everything because the
24:26India of 2026 is different from India of 2018.
24:30Good point you made there, but Sandeep, the last 30 seconds that I have on this part of
24:33the show, instead of Su-57s, should India be exploring additional S-400s and perhaps made
24:40in India, unmanned combat aerial vehicles as a stopgap to be in a position to focus on
24:46the indigenous AMCA program?
24:48Yes, absolutely, Gaurav.
24:49And you know, the fact is that the Air Force is going in for five additional S-400s, which
24:53as Air Marshal Chopra mentioned, they wanted way back in 2016.
24:57And the Defense Minister at that time had asked them to take five and go for five of the
25:02indigenous systems.
25:03Now we are getting 10 all told S-400s and the Project Kusha is coming.
25:09But the point that you made is absolutely valid.
25:11We need a mixture of all of these, including unmanned combat aerial vehicles.
25:15And this is the only way we can kind of fill that stopgap till the arrival of the AMCA in
25:212036.
25:22All of these need to be put together, Gaurav.
25:24The IACCS, the BrahMos missiles, let's not forget that.
25:27We have that ace card, which Pakistan and China do not have.
25:30The Air Force can put together an offensive system like the Sudarshan Chakra very quickly,
25:36based on all these building blocks that we've acquired.
25:39So it's a golden opportunity, say our experts on this program, to look at the S-400 system.
25:46Yes, but also the Su-57s that's on offer with full technology transfer.
25:53We'll keep tracking that story very, very closely.
25:56I want to thank all our guests for joining me here on this Battlecry special broadcast.
26:01The S-400s and the Su-57s.
26:05Will they prove to be a game changer for India?
26:08That is all I have for you on this broadcast.
26:11Many thanks for watching.
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